Firearms group, ranged weapon skills seem to be off. Options

[Falconer]

That shows a blatant misunderstanding of the problems the M-14 experienced in it's LMG variant. That gun was ONLY usable prone and w/ a bipod. It was far too light for the round, and it was explicitly designed to replace the BAR. (only the BAR was a far heavier gun w/ a similar magazine firing an equivalent round). And mind you, I HAVE shot the M-14 at those extreme ranges. (accurized match versions... the stock issue and full auto versions which I've also shot were not that precise).

Normal MG's w/ the exception of a few LMG's require special training and techniques to be fired from the hip and on the move. They are not utilized at all like a 'rifle'. M1919, MG42 (and it's descendants like the M60), etc... exceptions like the BAR do not prove the rule. And most of those are magazine fed, not belt fed, making them far more akin to BF/FA only AR's than to MG's. MG's are explicitly not designed to be light and easily aimed and fired like a rifle. They're normally optomized for sustained accurate fire from the prone position or within a pintle mount. Again, there are only a handfull of exceptions to this and they'd better be handled as AR's as they're all LMG's like the SAW.


As far as your original post... sorry, but your selections are more arbitrary and worse than those the devs made.

If you really want to make it work... eliminate the automatics category. Longarms (including AR's, shotguns, rifles), And Pistols (SMG's, MP's, pistols). Then put something armourer in as the 3rd skill to fill out the group, armourer deals directly w/ the care and maintenance of weapons and armor so it fits. That won't break things like you did. Also, I'd put on a double recoil penalty for using SMG's 1-handed. (you get more damage than a MP... but more reliance on recoil comp).


There is absolutely nothing wrong w/ putting xbows under archery. It works well, and very much matches their ballistics and maintenance problems. Again I've shot both a bit... and shooting a xbow is NOT like shooting a rifle... the follow-through requirements are MUCH stricter.


If anything... I'd keep MG's as heavy weapons but flip the recoil penalties around. EG: double dice pool penalty for any uncompensated recoil for small arms. MG's and other heavy weapons only get a single penalty for uncompensated recoil as they're intentionally made HEAVY and CUMBERSOME to offset recoil and keep the gun roughly on target. EG: it makes little sense that the AK-47 takes a half the penalty for full auto fire that an RPK would).

[Saint Sithney]

Yeah, I never understood the double recoil on the guns which are specifically designed for sustained full auto fire. I think it was maybe done to make something like a tripod or a gyromount unavoidable. I mean, an HMG is not a man portable weapon. Troll portable though...

I do definitely like the suggestion to dissolve automatics as a group and pick up armorer. It's been pointed out before that, because of the variation across the group, there's not much reason to take any other firearms skill than automatic unless you're a specialist (i.e. sniper or checkpoint-passin-assassin.) Besides, it's the "Firearms" skill group, not the "Shootin" skill group, and knowing how to field strip or modify a weapon is all part of being a firearms expert. Just boggles me how armorer is used to modify vehicles and such. Seems like you'd need a mechanic for that..

[Ascalaphus]

Just boggles me how armorer is used to modify vehicles and such. Seems like you'd need a mechanic for that..

I thought you did. Hence the Mechanic skill group. But it could be more explicitly mentioned.

It gets even funnier with modding commlinks; Unwired mentions these can be modded "without" Hardware. Silly errors.

[Saint Sithney]

I thought you did. Hence the Mechanic skill group. But it could be more explicitly mentioned.

It gets even funnier with modding commlinks; Unwired mentions these can be modded "without" Hardware. Silly errors.

Not to add armor plating. I guess they just took the Armor part of Armorer literally.

[Smokeskin]

It's been pointed out before that, because of the variation across the group, there's not much reason to take any other firearms skill than automatic unless you're a specialist (i.e. sniper or checkpoint-passin-assassin.)

You mean sort of like real life, where SMGs and ARs are used for pretty much everything unless you're a specialist? The only non-specialist use of Longarms I can think of is cops who use shotguns, but that's mostly because we don't want regular cops toting fully automatic weapons.

That being said, I don't think Automatics necessarily beat Longarms by such a wide margin (if you have Pistols too for your concealable needs ofc). FA shotguns have great stats for short range work, and sniper rifles outperform ARs in many ways. On top of this, you have great legality options with shotguns and sport rifles, while automatic licenses are pretty much only for security forces - Longarms lets you bring decent guns that go with a wide range covers.

[Stry]

The firearms group remains per BP relatively the same but the indervisule skills gain a few changes. The more exotic weapons no longer end up skill whores though I am iffy where to put the gyro-jet still. I want to keep the balance close to as it is now. Support might be folded in to firearms as well but that might overpower the group. Of course some testing and or deep insight might be needed but thats my gut feeling.

I would include gryojet weapons in the launch weapons, because it nothing more than a tiny rocket.

[Thanee]

Flight is apparently in the skill grouping (You know, for all those runners that can fly) but I thought it replaced the running skill, not added a 5th skill.

Ah, thanks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Do not underestimate the flying runners! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Karoline]

Ah, thanks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Do not underestimate the flying runners! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

Bye
Thanee

If they can fly, they get plenty of attention and large estimations. Also large caliber bullets.

[Draco18s]

If they can fly, they get plenty of attention and large estimations. Also large caliber bullets.

This is why my current drake character turns invisible.

[Karoline]

This is why my current drake character turns invisible.

Invisible flying characters get even more attention (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Draco18s]

Invisible flying characters get even more attention (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Depends on how they go invisible. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Falconer]

Magic isn't invisible to radar... so no, you're still boned. If that's your approach.

The best you can do on armor is visual and thermo camo. No radar stealth system. (and the one for drones/vehicles mods is very space intensive for very little benefit).

Jammers have horrendous range given the SR rules. The jammer needs to be so close to the transmitter to be usefull that it might as well not bother. Also the nature of jamming is that the radar knows it's being jammed and the rough location of the jammer (though still usefull against UWB radar in closer combat situations). Furthermore, lighting off a high strength jammer pretty much ensures that people are going to take notice (police, corp sec, etc). Not only that, but radars are a common (every car has one).


Now we go to assesnsing... you're spotted.... no tech can hide you from assesning. Any spell effects you have up shine like a beacon on the astral. Astral visibility is such that looking at things against the dark mana void of space provides a huge dice pool bonus to spot anything flying from the ground.


I suggest you take a look at the portion in Seattle 2072 where it goes into airborne travel. It's nowhere near as easy as you seem to think.

[Draco18s]

Concealment works against radar. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Omenowl]

Flight with the spell shapechange gives you the ability to generally be pigeon or raven in a city with few problems. I don't think flight would be an unusual skill for a biodrone rigger either.

[Falconer]

Against a radar... no.... look at the rules.

Sensor rating takes the place of intuition in the perception test. So even if you have a force 6 conceal... it doesn't block the rating 6 radar from seeing you. It only gives the operator -6 dice on the test. Now 1 hit is still enough to see you. In order to use stealth you actually have to be using some kind of stealthy action... you can't just say I'm stealthing while standing in the middle of an empty field... the middle of an empty sky is no different.


Against an astral observer... concealment's negative isn't that big compared to the +12 dice assensing bonus for standing out against the mana void of space.


Concealment is not invisibility. Though as an aside, I think concealment's dice mechanic is very badly done... yeah roll perception... but take out 8 dice... gah... it would work much better IMO if it went the other way... here's a +6 dice bonus to your infiltration roll (as you don't signal to your players anything as they'd roll perception and such normally).


I'm not saying flight isn't usefull! Not by any stretch, just don't expect to be limited to nap of earth and hiding in ground clutter most of the time.


Omneowl:
If you don't mind going naked... remember your equipment doesn't meld into your form. So you fly somewhere... then shapechange back into Mark I naked ape... a crow doesn't exactly have a large cargo capacity. Generally levitate is more usefull unless you're trying to do some kind of covert surveillance.

[Omenowl]

Against a radar... no.... look at the rules.

Sensor rating takes the place of intuition in the perception test. So even if you have a force 6 conceal... it doesn't block the rating 6 radar from seeing you. It only gives the operator -6 dice on the test. Now 1 hit is still enough to see you. In order to use stealth you actually have to be using some kind of stealthy action... you can't just say I'm stealthing while standing in the middle of an empty field... the middle of an empty sky is no different.


Against an astral observer... concealment's negative isn't that big compared to the +12 dice assensing bonus for standing out against the mana void of space.


Concealment is not invisibility. Though as an aside, I think concealment's dice mechanic is very badly done... yeah roll perception... but take out 8 dice... gah... it would work much better IMO if it went the other way... here's a +6 dice bonus to your infiltration roll (as you don't signal to your players anything as they'd roll perception and such normally).


I'm not saying flight isn't usefull! Not by any stretch, just don't expect to be limited to nap of earth and hiding in ground clutter most of the time.


Omneowl:
If you don't mind going naked... remember your equipment doesn't meld into your form. So you fly somewhere... then shapechange back into Mark I naked ape... a crow doesn't exactly have a large cargo capacity. Generally levitate is more usefull unless you're trying to do some kind of covert surveillance.

The intention of picking a crow or a pigeon is they are likely to be ignored even if detected. Fiber optic detection systems look for mass of water and ignore small animals intentionally. I have seen enough systems turned off or ignored when they go off due to leaves, birds and gophers. The intention of concealment is not necessarily to be unseen, but rather to be unidentifiable and ignored if you are seen.

[Draco18s]

It only gives the operator -6 dice on the test. Now 1 hit is still enough to see you. In order to use stealth you actually have to be using some kind of stealthy action... you can't just say I'm stealthing while standing in the middle of an empty field... the middle of an empty sky is no different.

If they're not thinking to look at the sky with radar to find me, they won't get a roll, period. I'm not expecting to be undetectable I'm expecting to be unfindable.

Against an astral observer... concealment's negative isn't that big compared to the +12 dice assensing bonus for standing out against the mana void of space.

Sky != Space

Concealment is not invisibility. Though as an aside, I think concealment's dice mechanic is very badly done... yeah roll perception... but take out 8 dice... gah... it would work much better IMO if it went the other way... here's a +6 dice bonus to your infiltration roll (as you don't signal to your players anything as they'd roll perception and such normally).

IIRC, +N dice to infiltration is how invisibility works while concealment does -N dice to the observer. Statistically they are the same provided that both pools are still positive after mods (excepting odds of glitching).

Omneowl:
If you don't mind going naked... remember your equipment doesn't meld into your form. So you fly somewhere... then shapechange back into Mark I naked ape... a crow doesn't exactly have a large cargo capacity. Generally levitate is more usefull unless you're trying to do some kind of covert surveillance.

Given that my character is a drake I planned on that...

[Falconer]

Again, someone running a radar site... is pretty much looking for anything in the sky. Granted an auto is looking for other cars in the fog/etc. w/ it's radar. Though nothing in the rules which stops it from also being used to track aerial targets. But a security system.. especially around a corp location w/ extranationality. Sorry you're not flying into that unobserved barring a low-grade security system/operator. (don't forget any competent rigger has an extra +2 +2 to his hotsimmed rigged perception roll as well if up against aerial drones...).


Again read the concealment power. It is not invisibility. It's only a negative to perception (and then only when people are looking for you!). "from tests to locate the concealed subject". It's similar to... the jedi... this is not the droid you're looking for... you walk by but people don't notice for whatever reason.


You are making the exact same argument as... yes I can walk right up the middle of a wide open driveway... right up to the gateguard... bitch slap him, and he'll never see me coming. This isn't the case... Flying in a wide open sky gives no cover to use to infiltrate. For that you need to use NOE, or find other sources of cover. Concealment doesn't change the TN0 perception check to see something in the wide open... it only reduces the number of dice to available to do so.

Invisibility doesn't give you bonus dice to infiltrate... it gives an initial opposed test to even be noticed (and failing that, the possibility of an infiltration/perception test... complete w/ the -6 penalty for visibility if they don't have appropriate sensor to see through the illusion.

[Draco18s]

You are making the exact same argument as... yes I can walk right up the middle of a wide open driveway... right up to the gateguard... bitch slap him, and he'll never see me coming. This isn't the case... Flying in a wide open sky gives no cover to use to infiltrate. For that you need to use NOE, or find other sources of cover.

How about being the same color AS THE SKY? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Go go gadget dynamic chameleon skin.

[Falconer]

In which case... the power doesn't stack w/ a chameleon suit?! (-4 for normal visual spotting). No, most people would stack them... it's magic it doesn't need a reason or method, it just is mechanically.


Besides we were talking about radar and similar sensors which will see through a visual sensor. If going that route... now you need to worry about IR (thermographic), visual (chameleon), and stealth (radar).... and that's not even touching sonar yet! (sonar isn't limited to underwater only).


I'm not arguing you can't stack up a lot of negatives... the problem is there's a lot of bases to be covered... and it doesn't change the basics that the most surefire way is to use some kind of cover and use your infiltration skill rather than pray that someone doesn't get the 1 hit required on however few dice are remaining as you come right up.

Part of the problem w/ visual is there's also a lot of positive modifiers which go with it.. (+3 enhancement, +2 specialzation...). So even if you've got a -10... it's not a given.

[Draco18s]

In which case... the power doesn't stack w/ a chameleon suit?! (-4 for normal visual spotting). No, most people would stack them... it's magic it doesn't need a reason or method, it just is mechanically.

Chameleon Skin, the surge quality, not the clothing. That whole (natural) shape shifting business.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

In which case... the power doesn't stack w/ a chameleon suit?! (-4 for normal visual spotting). No, most people would stack them... it's magic it doesn't need a reason or method, it just is mechanically.


Besides we were talking about radar and similar sensors which will see through a visual sensor. If going that route... now you need to worry about IR (thermographic), visual (chameleon), and stealth (radar).... and that's not even touching sonar yet! (sonar isn't limited to underwater only).


I'm not arguing you can't stack up a lot of negatives... the problem is there's a lot of bases to be covered... and it doesn't change the basics that the most surefire way is to use some kind of cover and use your infiltration skill rather than pray that someone doesn't get the 1 hit required on however few dice are remaining as you come right up.

Part of the problem w/ visual is there's also a lot of positive modifiers which go with it.. (+3 enhancement, +2 specialzation...). So even if you've got a -10... it's not a given.

Ok, you just said that most corps would have a radar "looking" at their air space. If you figure some way to make yourself invisible to radar or reduce your signature, you may as well fly invisible or disguised as a bird. Also, ain't there metamagics to conceal the astral "flar" of sustained spells?

[Muspellsheimr]

I am fine with merging Automatics with Pistols & Longarms (as appropriate), and including Gyrojet in the Pistols skill. If you are still using Skill Groups (which I suggest removing entirely), add Heavy Weapons to the Firearms group to bring it back to 3 skills.

Otherwise, the rest of your changes are crap for reasons already covered.


On a similar note, I suggest disassembling the Athletics group (again, if you are still using Skill Groups), and merging Running, Swimming, Climbing, & Flying (for those capable of it) into a single Athletics skill. While a reasonable change in itself, this one is specifically designed to complement the removal of skill groups.


Disclaimer: I only read the first ~10 posts.


Edit: I also suggest merging the Animal Handling & Animal Training skills (Running Wild) into a single Animal Handling skill. I also feel VetTech should be merged with another skill, but cannot decide on one that sufficiently makes sense (I would go with Medicine, but metahumans & animals are often to different for this to make sense, from what I understand).

[Falconer]

Draco:

Catch here... chameleon suit & power is a +dice bonus to your infiltiration check. (+2 for the surge quality). That slipped by both of us. The negative to the perception check is sitll purely from concealment.

Nice trick that one... though I'd probably custom craft a drake sized armor suit myself... (even though that would be remarkably distinctive... it'd give better protection. A chameleon drake would also be remarkably distincrtive). I'm still not certain that it's really kosher though... as again infiltration requires cover... a bonus to infiltration does not equal invisibility... yes you're sky coloured... but you just blocked some stars behind you... or one guard doesn't see you for the blue sky you look like, but the other one sees you outlined against a cloud.

If you were somehow immobile, like a guy in a ghillie suit in the middle of a field w/ a sniper rifle. Yeah, I can see it. But for something moving fast flying in the sky... no. Not really. Just because you have a bonus to make a test, does not mean you've met the requirements to make the test.


Shinobi:
I said the spell was usefull for recon and infiltration. I just said that you'd be very limited in what you could bring with you. While the radar (and eyeball observers) might ignore a mere bird.. A mere bird carrying a small satchel in it's claws is quite another thing.

If you're planning on sneaking in... shapeshifting back to naked ape form... you're a bit limited in your options. As you need to have equipment smuggled in advance, or steal it, or do the job in the buff/while shapechanged. I've actually found shapechange a better escape technique... especially if I'm going in w/ cheap disposable gear anyhow.

The metamagic you're referring to is extended masking (advanced meta technique with prereq of masking). Still not that hard to see through until you get a few initiate grades under your belt though.

[Karoline]

On a similar note, I suggest disassembling the Athletics group (again, if you are still using Skill Groups), and merging Running, Swimming, Climbing, & Flying (for those capable of it) into a single Athletics skill. While a reasonable change in itself, this one is specifically designed to complement the removal of skill groups.

Merging those three(four) skills really doesn't make alot of sense. Most people that can run well don't know the first thing about climbing. I can climb well but I suck at running. And swimming is a whole different thing. I mean they all require you to be fairly physically fit, but that is the only thing they really have in common. And if you're going on that logic you may as well just throw all agility based skills into one big skill because they all require you to be agile to do well.