I have a strong dislike for the current breakup of skills for firearms and a couple of other skills. The idea is to group similar types of skills with those weapons that require different thought processes, and body movements. My goal is to make sure skills require distinct training, but are broad enough to make the skill worthwhile. Longarms vs. automatics seems like a poor distinction as an assault rifle and a semiautomatic rifle can be almost identical except for rate of fire. It is also assumed that players are able to repair, modify (anything requiring a workshop or toolkit) and use said weapons. If they wish to change the weapons characteristics (such as integral components that exceed space, larger internal ammunition capacity, greater damage, etc) or requires a facility then this would fall under engineering.

I am deciding to modify the various skills

Firearms are about direct fire weapons that rely on the weapons energy rather than the characters. It has several subskills.
Pistols (weapons that have 1 grip) including gyrojet pistols
Rifles (weapons that can be carried and have 2 grips). This includes medium and light machine guns
Crossbows
Lasers
Muskets
Flamethrowers
Net Guns.


Gunnery: These include directly controlled indirect fire and manually operated turret mounted weapons. Grenade launchers, artillery, pedal/wheel operated weapons (such as antiaircraft guns) and mortars. Heavy machine guns on tripods fall into this category
Heavy Weapons: These are weapons that require remote operation or electronic guidance. They include missiles, rockets, programmed artillery, remote controlled turrets, bombs.

Juuuuust because something "makes more sense" one way, does not mean that it will not be TERRIFICALLY UNBALANCED that way. What you have given is a Firearms group that applies to just about every ranged weapon almost anybody would care to have ... which I can buy as a group for a pretty low price as compared to the core rules. If you combine all these weapons into one skill group, you need to seriously up the price for the skill group as a whole. And a few of the skills should probably cost more as they now cost more.

Game designers have to do things for more than just sense. They also have to balance costs relative to each other. While the system is flawed in some ways as to this ... it's not as flawed as that change would make it.

Also, what if I'm a troll and carry the Heavy Machine Gun in my hands? Is it now a rifle?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you want realism or better yet "simulationism", go play GURPS, I'm quite sure that with few modifications you can have the Sixth World ready for GURPS.

There is a reason firearms gained preeminence over bows and it was for their ease of use.

First off how is it overpowered? Rifles rolled up automatics and longarms into one skill. Pistols got a couple of exotics. The other exotic skills if anything are rarely used and only then for special missions or desperation. Players with firearms are probably going to use the same weapons they were before. If anything they may ignore the firearm group and focus on pistols and rifles. And if a troll can carry and fire a 40-50+kg weapon with 20-30g of bullets, armor, etc more power to them.

Gunnery is not under firearms nor are heavy weapons. That may not have been clear.

Pistols - added all Exotic Weapon Skills
Rifles - added all Automatics, added Light and Medium machine guns and apparently Heavy machine guns if you've got the STR/BOD, so rolling up most of Heavy Weapons and some Exotic Weapons
Crossbows - Taken away from Ranged Weaponry
Lasers - Taken from Exotic Weapon Skills, IIRC. Shadowrun is not my "home" system, so I'm not totally sure.
Muskets - ... I'm not sure why this got split out into a separate skill as it would have been under either Pistols or Rifles before.
Flamethrowers - Either Heavy Weapons or Exotic Weapons
Net Guns - I'm pretty sure this is Exotic Weapons

So, with that, you've got a list of six skills in one skill group, so you'd save ... ah ... instead of 2-6 BP as with most skill groups (3-4 skills), you'd save ... a whopping 14BP per point. And let's not forget that you rolled a darn good portion of Armorer into it as well. If we break down how much got rolled into certain skills, what would cost you 8 now might only cost you 4. For example, with the description of Pistols given, you could fire ... the MGL-6 with it. Which cuts out Heavy Weapons. Oh, and the gyrojet pistols, which I believe was an Exotic Weapon ... so that's 12BP rolled down to 4.

Basically, it makes Firearms the best skill group for your money. As it is right now, it's one of the less money back skill groups incorporating 3 skills to some group's 4. Basically, with this change, it's far and away the most bang-for-your-buck skill group, to the point of making other skill groups kind'f a ripoff.

If you do both BP and ka

Or HERO or RoleMaster

I agree that the grouping doesn't make much sense. Automatics and longarms aren't really all that different in the real world (and heck, lets be honest, once you know how to fire a pistol/rifle, learning to use the other isn't really all that difficult), but you've greatly reduced the number of skills that a runner really needs to bother taking. I mean I'd be plenty happy with just the pistol and rifle skill, or just one of them, on 99% of my character concepts.

So that rolling of two skills into one really disrupts the balance (The idea is that everything has 3 skills. Melee has 3 skills, magic has 3 skills, technomancing has 3 skills, and guns has 3 skills), and so isn't a particularly good idea, even if it does kinda make sense from a reality standpoint. Then you make all these other weird skills and I have no idea what that is all about. Why the sudden laser skill? And why the heck are net guns rolled into this grouping? And flamethrowers? Really? That seems like a fairly big stretch for being in the same skill group (Never mind that you've broken the 4 skill max that all other groups adhere to)

If you were just talking about rolling automatics and longarms into one group, I might be a little behind you (perhaps suggesting that there should be an SA/SS Rifle skill and a BF/FA Rifle skill based on how you fire the weapon to get back up to 3 skills), but all this other stuff seems like way too much. Also, just because you know how to fire a weapon doesn't mean you know the first thing about cleaning it or even anything about its workings beyond the safety and trigger.

Actually atheltics has 5 skills. See runner's companion.

I have a strong dislike for the exotic skills that seem to just be thrown in especially when the grip, etc are identical (gyrojet pistols). The question that should be asked is does it fire like a pistol or a rifle. It is part of the reason many items such as tasers have a pistol grip to reduce training time. I would tend to agree if it gave such a wide diversity of weapons that nothing else could compare, but they don't. An example is athletics has 5 skills with flight being the 5th. Pilot groundcraft covers a huge number of different vehicles from motorcycles, to cars, to hovercraft. to tracked vehicles.

Archery is a whole other issue where completely dissimilar items are put together. Crossbows are more similar to rifles or pistols than being in common with bows for firing and if anything I would put slings into the thrown category.

And you are right I would put the toolkit as being with the weapon skills for modifications. The workshop and facility under the armorer skill.

Being able to clean a gun without the Armorer skills is sensible; but actually making real changes to a gun is precisely what the Armorer skill is about, so no need to change that.


Even though different weapons have similar handgrips, that doesn't mean they work the same; they have different rates of fire, speed of bullets, recoil etcetera, - all manner of things that make them different.

Crossbows may have a trigger, but they feature (relatively) slow-moving arrows like a bow, making one Archery skill for both sensible.

Net guns have a very exotic ammo type that moves through the air differently from anything else, and deserves to be set apart.

Lasers are different in their speed; they're actually faster than any other weapon, which means aiming them works quite differently. They also likely don't have recoil.

Flamethrowers are a crossing of melee and ranged weapon, and feature fairly slow-moving flames (compared to bullets), making them very different from other weapons.



As for the firearms division:

Pistols covers small, close range weaponry. Tasers and Holdouts included. They generally have little recoil, but don't do as much damage and are limited in range.

Automatics focus on quantity of bullets, rather than range or damage.

Longarms focus on high quality per bullet, including high damage and long range.

This is not entirely correct. Guns are more expensive and until the invention of repeating firearms circa 1860 bows had a much greater rate of fire.

Fire arms gained preeminance because the learning curve to train men was much much lower. It could take years to train an archer and the loss of them in battle could not be easily made up. By comparrison musketeers could be trained much faster and replaced much faster.

Until the repeating rifle appeared though, a trained archer could outshoot a trained musketeer. But generals like BIG armies.

I know, it's a fine point but as long as we are kicking around 'realistic' elements...

Fixed!

Anyways, the biggest gripe people have with the firearm spilt-up is that a burst/full-auto light pistol is fired with pistols but a burst/full-auto machine pistol is fired with automatics. This makes no sense!

Additionally 99% percent of smart characters (even gunbunnys) either take autos or heavies.
There is basicly no situation with the current rules where 2 skills is worth the points.

The end result is that people start trying to reorganize the weapon groups logically.

I personally am using the Eclipse Phase breakdown (ie. energy, launcher, kinetic, sprayer)
Makes sense, less hassle.

I miss the days of 2e when the skill was just Firearms.

Wasn't it Firearms and Launch Weapons?

and lasers/weird shit didn't exist yet?

What 5th skill do you mean here?

Bye
Thanee

Flight is apparently in the skill grouping (You know, for all those runners that can fly) but I thought it replaced the running skill, not added a 5th skill.

And I have to agree that while an xbow follows the same 'pull the trigger' principle as a rifle, the way you need to adjust your shot is way different because you're ammo is going to drop alot more and you're going to have to lead the target by a much larger distance. This does make it much more similar to a bow in where you are aiming for, even though the exact firing methods are rather different. Same is even more true of a net gun.

I liked 2es skills as well. 3e kind of was weird to me, it was a lot like 2e but for some reason combat skills were broken up. Stealth still covered a huge range of things as did most skills, but pistols and rifles etc. were broken out of firearms. 4e I'm okay with though I'd make groups and skills in general cheaper, also I'd move most if not all "special skills" into a similar skill. I can rationalize how the squirt is different from a pistol but I'm mostly full of crap when i do.

To which I'd like to point out that drakes can both run and fly most of the time, whereas a pixie has almost no use for their legs what so ever because of their slow land movement rate.


As for the OP I think I would suggest the following:

Revolvers - All one handed single-shot weapons
SemiAutos - All burst fire weapons
Rifles - All two handed semi- and full auto weapons
Exotics - All "odd amunition" weapons from lasers to flame throwers to netguns to crossbows.

The general principle between these types and normal ammo guns is similar enough that its easy to learn, but have their own quirks (flame throwers having low range and ballistic trajectories different from standard ammo, lasers having effectively infinite range and no ballistic arc). Likewise single shot/BA/full auto weapons are different in how you hold them (pistols at arm's reach, uzi types are two handed out in front, rifles are more shoulder braced). I'm sure I haven't unambiguously described each group (a full auto-pistol is...?) but have at least broken it down into managable groupings.

The only complaint being that shotguns and sniper rifles both fall under "rifle" (still), despite being single shot (usually) and even having vastly different skills needed to be used effectively.

Heavy weapons I'd shove under gunnery, even when its a troll using an LMG. You're just firing that much lead that the principle is pretty much the same: spray and pray.

I figure it should be 4 skills:
SS/SA pistols
BF/FA pistols
SS/SA rifles
BF/FA rifles
and then go on to all the exotic weapons for xbows and net guns and everything else that usually requires exotic weapons.

The basic principle is that it isn't much different firing any two weapons that you hold in two hands(Rifles), but it is much different if you are firing one shot at a time or unloading a clip (SS/SA vs BF/FA). Aiming with a pistol is done differently enough (especially how you hold the weapon) that it requires a different skill. Some kind of defaulting might be cool, as if you can aim well for burst fire, you can likely at least manage some degree of single shot ability and vice versa.

Are we going to throw SMGs in under BF Pistols, or BF Rifles?

How about:
Sidearms - Anything you can fire with one hand (Redline Laser? sure.)
Longarms - Anything with an effective range over 500m (includes ARs and Carbines as well as MG and Assault Cannon)
Tactical - Anything with an effective range under 500m (shotguns, SMG, your basic sweep an clear gear/PDW)
Launcher - Missiles, rockets, grenades, flamethrowers, all the more esoteric stuff.

Because, really the skill a shooter needs to develop isn't based on caliber or even fire rate, but on how you hold your weapon and at what distance you plan to engage enemies.

I'd have the "firearms" group
Sidearms - Anything you can fire with one hand bar surport guns (minus one handed GLs and the gyro-jet the "exotic" pistols).
Longarms - Any firearm with an effective range over 500m (includes ARs and Carbines as well as LMGs)
Tactical - Any friearm with an effective range under 500m (shotguns, SMG, your basic sweep an clear gear/PDW)

With these skill out side the group
Support - Basically Heavy weapons minus the LMG plus gyro jet and pistol GL
Lasers- all the laser weaponry with there fast projectile speed and radicaly different means to maintain.
Gunnery- would remain as it is.
as would all the other skills with overlap in throw weapons and hand grenades as support would cover them as well

The firearms group remains per BP relatively the same but the indervisule skills gain a few changes. The more exotic weapons no longer end up skill whores though I am iffy where to put the gyro-jet still. I want to keep the balance close to as it is now. Support might be folded in to firearms as well but that might overpower the group. Of course some testing and or deep insight might be needed but thats my gut feeling.

I believe your correct and they had Armed Combat, Firearms, Launch Weapons, and Unarmed Combat for combat skills. Dont have my book near me though so I could be wrong.

Well, it is basically a mini-rocket pistol, so Support isn't a bad spot for it.
My thought for including lasers in with traditional kinetic weapons is that, with a smartgun system, the only real skill is how to hold a thing and what to expect from it. A laser with a blinking "zap goes here" sign should almost bypass rolls it's so easy to use.

How ever the skills also nessitate the use of weapons unsmartlinked as well and reload drills and mantining the weapon some thing that with lasers would fall out of genral firearms. There is also the posabilty of splitting support in to support and special. Special holding the superheavy and more esoteric guns. Suport would then be part of firearms with your MGs, GLs and such with the LMG removed from long arms. This would not change the blance much and infact could be the better idea. In this case moving sniper platfroms in to support would help round out firearms though could weaken longarms a bit too much. Blanencing this all out becomes the biggest problem not simulating.

The only problem with going with range is it is the bullet size, rifling and propellant for its maximum effective range. I know several people who used M-14 with a range of 750 meters despite being fully automatic. The M-14 also can be used as a LMG with a few variants. So this is why I rolled hand carried machine guns into rifles. Weapons such as HK XM30 would also have 1 weapon skill for its variants with the exception for the grenade launcher (because it is an indirect fire weapon).

That shows a blatant misunderstanding of the problems the M-14 experienced in it's LMG variant. That gun was ONLY usable prone and w/ a bipod. It was far too light for the round, and it was explicitly designed to replace the BAR. (only the BAR was a far heavier gun w/ a similar magazine firing an equivalent round). And mind you, I HAVE shot the M-14 at those extreme ranges. (accurized match versions... the stock issue and full auto versions which I've also shot were not that precise).

Normal MG's w/ the exception of a few LMG's require special training and techniques to be fired from the hip and on the move. They are not utilized at all like a 'rifle'. M1919, MG42 (and it's descendants like the M60), etc... exceptions like the BAR do not prove the rule. And most of those are magazine fed, not belt fed, making them far more akin to BF/FA only AR's than to MG's. MG's are explicitly not designed to be light and easily aimed and fired like a rifle. They're normally optomized for sustained accurate fire from the prone position or within a pintle mount. Again, there are only a handfull of exceptions to this and they'd better be handled as AR's as they're all LMG's like the SAW.


As far as your original post... sorry, but your selections are more arbitrary and worse than those the devs made.

If you really want to make it work... eliminate the automatics category. Longarms (including AR's, shotguns, rifles), And Pistols (SMG's, MP's, pistols). Then put something armourer in as the 3rd skill to fill out the group, armourer deals directly w/ the care and maintenance of weapons and armor so it fits. That won't break things like you did. Also, I'd put on a double recoil penalty for using SMG's 1-handed. (you get more damage than a MP... but more reliance on recoil comp).


There is absolutely nothing wrong w/ putting xbows under archery. It works well, and very much matches their ballistics and maintenance problems. Again I've shot both a bit... and shooting a xbow is NOT like shooting a rifle... the follow-through requirements are MUCH stricter.


If anything... I'd keep MG's as heavy weapons but flip the recoil penalties around. EG: double dice pool penalty for any uncompensated recoil for small arms. MG's and other heavy weapons only get a single penalty for uncompensated recoil as they're intentionally made HEAVY and CUMBERSOME to offset recoil and keep the gun roughly on target. EG: it makes little sense that the AK-47 takes a half the penalty for full auto fire that an RPK would).

Yeah, I never understood the double recoil on the guns which are specifically designed for sustained full auto fire. I think it was maybe done to make something like a tripod or a gyromount unavoidable. I mean, an HMG is not a man portable weapon. Troll portable though...

I do definitely like the suggestion to dissolve automatics as a group and pick up armorer. It's been pointed out before that, because of the variation across the group, there's not much reason to take any other firearms skill than automatic unless you're a specialist (i.e. sniper or checkpoint-passin-assassin.) Besides, it's the "Firearms" skill group, not the "Shootin" skill group, and knowing how to field strip or modify a weapon is all part of being a firearms expert. Just boggles me how armorer is used to modify vehicles and such. Seems like you'd need a mechanic for that..

I thought you did. Hence the Mechanic skill group. But it could be more explicitly mentioned.

It gets even funnier with modding commlinks; Unwired mentions these can be modded "without" Hardware. Silly errors.

Not to add armor plating. I guess they just took the Armor part of Armorer literally.

You mean sort of like real life, where SMGs and ARs are used for pretty much everything unless you're a specialist? The only non-specialist use of Longarms I can think of is cops who use shotguns, but that's mostly because we don't want regular cops toting fully automatic weapons.

That being said, I don't think Automatics necessarily beat Longarms by such a wide margin (if you have Pistols too for your concealable needs ofc). FA shotguns have great stats for short range work, and sniper rifles outperform ARs in many ways. On top of this, you have great legality options with shotguns and sport rifles, while automatic licenses are pretty much only for security forces - Longarms lets you bring decent guns that go with a wide range covers.

I would include gryojet weapons in the launch weapons, because it nothing more than a tiny rocket.

Ah, thanks.

Do not underestimate the flying runners!

Bye
Thanee

If they can fly, they get plenty of attention and large estimations. Also large caliber bullets.

This is why my current drake character turns invisible.

Invisible flying characters get even more attention

Depends on how they go invisible.

Magic isn't invisible to radar... so no, you're still boned. If that's your approach.

The best you can do on armor is visual and thermo camo. No radar stealth system. (and the one for drones/vehicles mods is very space intensive for very little benefit).

Jammers have horrendous range given the SR rules. The jammer needs to be so close to the transmitter to be usefull that it might as well not bother. Also the nature of jamming is that the radar knows it's being jammed and the rough location of the jammer (though still usefull against UWB radar in closer combat situations). Furthermore, lighting off a high strength jammer pretty much ensures that people are going to take notice (police, corp sec, etc). Not only that, but radars are a common (every car has one).


Now we go to assesnsing... you're spotted.... no tech can hide you from assesning. Any spell effects you have up shine like a beacon on the astral. Astral visibility is such that looking at things against the dark mana void of space provides a huge dice pool bonus to spot anything flying from the ground.


I suggest you take a look at the portion in Seattle 2072 where it goes into airborne travel. It's nowhere near as easy as you seem to think.

Concealment works against radar.

Flight with the spell shapechange gives you the ability to generally be pigeon or raven in a city with few problems. I don't think flight would be an unusual skill for a biodrone rigger either.

Against a radar... no.... look at the rules.

Sensor rating takes the place of intuition in the perception test. So even if you have a force 6 conceal... it doesn't block the rating 6 radar from seeing you. It only gives the operator -6 dice on the test. Now 1 hit is still enough to see you. In order to use stealth you actually have to be using some kind of stealthy action... you can't just say I'm stealthing while standing in the middle of an empty field... the middle of an empty sky is no different.


Against an astral observer... concealment's negative isn't that big compared to the +12 dice assensing bonus for standing out against the mana void of space.


Concealment is not invisibility. Though as an aside, I think concealment's dice mechanic is very badly done... yeah roll perception... but take out 8 dice... gah... it would work much better IMO if it went the other way... here's a +6 dice bonus to your infiltration roll (as you don't signal to your players anything as they'd roll perception and such normally).


I'm not saying flight isn't usefull! Not by any stretch, just don't expect to be limited to nap of earth and hiding in ground clutter most of the time.


Omneowl:
If you don't mind going naked... remember your equipment doesn't meld into your form. So you fly somewhere... then shapechange back into Mark I naked ape... a crow doesn't exactly have a large cargo capacity. Generally levitate is more usefull unless you're trying to do some kind of covert surveillance.

The intention of picking a crow or a pigeon is they are likely to be ignored even if detected. Fiber optic detection systems look for mass of water and ignore small animals intentionally. I have seen enough systems turned off or ignored when they go off due to leaves, birds and gophers. The intention of concealment is not necessarily to be unseen, but rather to be unidentifiable and ignored if you are seen.

If they're not thinking to look at the sky with radar to find me, they won't get a roll, period. I'm not expecting to be undetectable I'm expecting to be unfindable.



Sky != Space



IIRC, +N dice to infiltration is how invisibility works while concealment does -N dice to the observer. Statistically they are the same provided that both pools are still positive after mods (excepting odds of glitching).



Given that my character is a drake I planned on that...

Again, someone running a radar site... is pretty much looking for anything in the sky. Granted an auto is looking for other cars in the fog/etc. w/ it's radar. Though nothing in the rules which stops it from also being used to track aerial targets. But a security system.. especially around a corp location w/ extranationality. Sorry you're not flying into that unobserved barring a low-grade security system/operator. (don't forget any competent rigger has an extra +2 +2 to his hotsimmed rigged perception roll as well if up against aerial drones...).


Again read the concealment power. It is not invisibility. It's only a negative to perception (and then only when people are looking for you!). "from tests to locate the concealed subject". It's similar to... the jedi... this is not the droid you're looking for... you walk by but people don't notice for whatever reason.


You are making the exact same argument as... yes I can walk right up the middle of a wide open driveway... right up to the gateguard... bitch slap him, and he'll never see me coming. This isn't the case... Flying in a wide open sky gives no cover to use to infiltrate. For that you need to use NOE, or find other sources of cover. Concealment doesn't change the TN0 perception check to see something in the wide open... it only reduces the number of dice to available to do so.

Invisibility doesn't give you bonus dice to infiltrate... it gives an initial opposed test to even be noticed (and failing that, the possibility of an infiltration/perception test... complete w/ the -6 penalty for visibility if they don't have appropriate sensor to see through the illusion.

How about being the same color AS THE SKY?
Go go gadget dynamic chameleon skin.

In which case... the power doesn't stack w/ a chameleon suit?! (-4 for normal visual spotting). No, most people would stack them... it's magic it doesn't need a reason or method, it just is mechanically.


Besides we were talking about radar and similar sensors which will see through a visual sensor. If going that route... now you need to worry about IR (thermographic), visual (chameleon), and stealth (radar).... and that's not even touching sonar yet! (sonar isn't limited to underwater only).


I'm not arguing you can't stack up a lot of negatives... the problem is there's a lot of bases to be covered... and it doesn't change the basics that the most surefire way is to use some kind of cover and use your infiltration skill rather than pray that someone doesn't get the 1 hit required on however few dice are remaining as you come right up.

Part of the problem w/ visual is there's also a lot of positive modifiers which go with it.. (+3 enhancement, +2 specialzation...). So even if you've got a -10... it's not a given.

Chameleon Skin, the surge quality, not the clothing. That whole (natural) shape shifting business.

Ok, you just said that most corps would have a radar "looking" at their air space. If you figure some way to make yourself invisible to radar or reduce your signature, you may as well fly invisible or disguised as a bird. Also, ain't there metamagics to conceal the astral "flar" of sustained spells?

I am fine with merging Automatics with Pistols & Longarms (as appropriate), and including Gyrojet in the Pistols skill. If you are still using Skill Groups (which I suggest removing entirely), add Heavy Weapons to the Firearms group to bring it back to 3 skills.

Otherwise, the rest of your changes are crap for reasons already covered.


On a similar note, I suggest disassembling the Athletics group (again, if you are still using Skill Groups), and merging Running, Swimming, Climbing, & Flying (for those capable of it) into a single Athletics skill. While a reasonable change in itself, this one is specifically designed to complement the removal of skill groups.


Disclaimer: I only read the first ~10 posts.


Edit: I also suggest merging the Animal Handling & Animal Training skills (Running Wild) into a single Animal Handling skill. I also feel VetTech should be merged with another skill, but cannot decide on one that sufficiently makes sense (I would go with Medicine, but metahumans & animals are often to different for this to make sense, from what I understand).

Draco:

Catch here... chameleon suit & power is a +dice bonus to your infiltiration check. (+2 for the surge quality). That slipped by both of us. The negative to the perception check is sitll purely from concealment.

Nice trick that one... though I'd probably custom craft a drake sized armor suit myself... (even though that would be remarkably distinctive... it'd give better protection. A chameleon drake would also be remarkably distincrtive). I'm still not certain that it's really kosher though... as again infiltration requires cover... a bonus to infiltration does not equal invisibility... yes you're sky coloured... but you just blocked some stars behind you... or one guard doesn't see you for the blue sky you look like, but the other one sees you outlined against a cloud.

If you were somehow immobile, like a guy in a ghillie suit in the middle of a field w/ a sniper rifle. Yeah, I can see it. But for something moving fast flying in the sky... no. Not really. Just because you have a bonus to make a test, does not mean you've met the requirements to make the test.


Shinobi:
I said the spell was usefull for recon and infiltration. I just said that you'd be very limited in what you could bring with you. While the radar (and eyeball observers) might ignore a mere bird.. A mere bird carrying a small satchel in it's claws is quite another thing.

If you're planning on sneaking in... shapeshifting back to naked ape form... you're a bit limited in your options. As you need to have equipment smuggled in advance, or steal it, or do the job in the buff/while shapechanged. I've actually found shapechange a better escape technique... especially if I'm going in w/ cheap disposable gear anyhow.

The metamagic you're referring to is extended masking (advanced meta technique with prereq of masking). Still not that hard to see through until you get a few initiate grades under your belt though.

Merging those three(four) skills really doesn't make alot of sense. Most people that can run well don't know the first thing about climbing. I can climb well but I suck at running. And swimming is a whole different thing. I mean they all require you to be fairly physically fit, but that is the only thing they really have in common. And if you're going on that logic you may as well just throw all agility based skills into one big skill because they all require you to be agile to do well.