 Ritual magic and astral barriers, Do they matter? |
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 Jul 22 2007, 03:21 AM
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#26
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689  |
But if they do link directly to the target, then some kind of link still has to pass through the astral barrier (and maybe take it into account) -- and I believe that was the question of this thread.
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Jul 22 2007, 03:23 AM
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#27
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Holy shit, the 2 Fs are back. The time of the apocalypse hath come! |
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Jul 22 2007, 03:27 AM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 472 Joined: 14-June 07 Member No.: 11,909 |
That on the other hand is another question that deals with astral barriers and astral links. I only pointed out the difference from the link provided by other means than the spotter. |
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Jul 22 2007, 03:38 AM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 5-April 07 From: Vancouver, BC Member No.: 11,383 |
Thats why in my post I said that that was the important question that needed answering. Also note that there were two paragraphs one for the spotter and one for the material link. The targets of spells cast through the barrier get the barrier as bonus resistance dice. There is nothing about casting a spell along an astral link that goes through a barrier. If you were to rule that any barrier the spell travels through while it travels along the astral link, then when you were to use a spotter and the spotter was to leave the ritual circle and travel through the force 6 wards all along the outside of the building you are in then the target would get that barrier as a bonus resistance dice. Since the book only has rules for casting through a barrier I would say that while it is traveling along the astral link barriers would not come into account. With the spooter the spell goes from the spotter to the target. Any barrier in the way would count. Using a material link there is an astral link from the material to the target. The spell goes from the team leader to the material link and then travels along the astral link to the target of the spell. If there was a barrier between the caster and the material link then that would come into play as the spell would have to travel through it to get to the link. |
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Jul 22 2007, 03:49 AM
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#30
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Look at it this way. Sorcery requires you to physically see the location and target of your spell (or, in the case of Elemental Manipulation spells, requires the spell to physically travels to the target destination). Thus any obstacles in the way are fully in play as they are interfering with either your line of sight or the path of the mana you're slinging. Ritual Spellcasting, on the other hand, largely skips that obstacle. In a fashion more closely related to summoning a spirit than transmitting a radio signal, the magician manifests the magic directly at the destination without worrying about anything in between himself or the target. Because, in fact, there are no obstacles between him and his target. If there were, and he was casting an Elemental Manipulation spell with Ritual Sorcery, then that Fireball would be blasting through everything on the way to the target which just isn't the case. The link isn't a long cable or magic radio signal. It's just a means that the magician uses to figure out where to manifest the spell effect. This is why it takes so long to cast a ritual spell. They're willing the magic effect to appear somewhere else, not "shoot" the spell there. Oh, and please keep in mind that I haven't played in a few years and am not fully up to speed on all of the 4th Edition rules, hence the examples over rules citations. :D |
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Jul 22 2007, 05:43 AM
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#31
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Although, even in e3, it was made absolutely clear that (for example) a standardly-cast combat spell does not physically travel from caster to target but manifests within the target -- and yet the existence of astral barriers affects that casting. |
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Jul 22 2007, 07:24 AM
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#32
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Hmm? I mentioned that.
Those obstacles are interferring with your line of sight to the target. In those cases, there is a "radio signal" type phenomenon in play. Line of sight isn't an issue with ritual spellcasting via a link. It's more like the magician is right there on top of the target, touching them. I used an Elemental Manipulation spell as an example simply because it was demonstrating the lack of a line of sight type effect with ritual spellcasting. If ritual spellcasting worked like sorcery, basically "extending" the magician's line of sight from their current location to the target, then Elemental Manipulation spells would be affected as such, too, being forced to travel from one to the other. |
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Jul 22 2007, 03:07 PM
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#33
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Three concepts are being blurred here:
But the third: that's the one to concentrate on. |
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Jul 22 2007, 05:46 PM
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#34
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
The third is inseparable from the first two. Seriously. Objects are either "between" or they are not. An indirect combat spell, for example, is stopped by any physical object that is "between" the caster and the target. An indirect attack spell also allows the target additional damage resistance dice if it has an astral barrier "between" the caster and the target. Since indirect combat spells are castable through ritual spellcasting at all, this necessarily means that the physical objects are not "between" the caster and the target. And that means that the astral barriers aren't "between" either! They are in the same place, and the rules concerning being "between" are not different. You are asking for words to mean different things in the same sentence for no reason. -Frank |
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Jul 22 2007, 09:56 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 5-April 07 From: Vancouver, BC Member No.: 11,383 |
The problem is exactly how people view the ritual magic working and how it travels. The books don't specifically say and that is where all the confusion comes in. If you strip the ritual spellcasting down to it's simplest form you have the ritual group and a target within sight. This negates the need for a spotter or a link. So, if your ritual group was to chant, dance, sacrifice small children or whatever your ritual group does and cast an indirect combat spell would the spell simply manifest at the target or would it travel from the caster to the target? If I read your post right you figure that the fireball or whatever would just appear at the target. That would mean that any mana barriers between you and the target would have no effect. From the book and what has been quoted here a bunch of times, "Ritual spellcasting works much like regular spellcasting, except that it is cast over a longer period of time and can affect targets outside the magician's visual range. In addition, a group may collaborate and combine their skills using ritual spellcasting to make a spell more potent. (p.174, main book)" Since it works like regular spell casting and in regular spellcasting an indirect combat spell will manifest and then travel to the target a ritual spell will do the same. This means that the target will get any benefit of astral barriers between the caster and the target. Now, when the team leader cannot see the target you need to add in the spotter. The spotter is now what provides your line of sight and it also has the astral link to the group. Lacking explicit rules that say the spell simply appears at the target or the spell appears here and travels to here it is reasonable to assume that the results of the spellcasting will be similar to the previous results with the fewest changes possible. So in the first example you had a ritual group with a leader. The leader had LOS to target. Spell travels from leader to target. Second example you have ritual team with a leader and spotter. Spotter has LOS to target. Spell will travel from spotter to target. This is a more reasonable assumption than having the spell simply appear at the target. It more closely mimics the basic ritual spellcasting which is supposed to by RAW mimic the regular spellcasting. Using a link would be different. With a link you have an astral link from an object to the target. So Ritual team with leader. Leader has LOS to link. link goes to target. So a spell would travel from caster to the link and since the link and the target are connected the spell would effect the target the same as the link. That also means that any barriers between the team and the link would help the target resist the spell. I like this view, yours may be different but since there is no 4th ed RAW saying that one is right and the other is wrong either interpretation is correct. Mine is a simple extrapolation from the rules that we currently have. I could be wrong but if you play that the spells simply manifest at the target I would be interested to see how you get to that conclusion. |
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Jul 22 2007, 10:12 PM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
Here's a thought that occurred to me:
1. With normal spellcasting, your "cast" travels along a path in space, hence is subject to barriers in space. 2. According to Frank's interpretation, with ritual spellcasting, your "cast" does not travel along a path in space, and hence is not subject to barriers in space. #2 sounds an awful lot like teleportation to me... |
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Jul 22 2007, 10:22 PM
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#37
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Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
but, if we do the traveling through space, does that mean that if you cast fireball at an insane force, (or any force) that people between the team and the target see the fireball flying? only from the spotter to the target?
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Jul 22 2007, 10:25 PM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
Well, clearly we don't see the fireball flying, because every reference I've ever seen says "no".
But see, the fireball is the "effect", not the casting; I posit that the casting travels through space, and causes an effect at the end point. |
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Jul 22 2007, 10:38 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
And to play devil's advocate to myself:
1. The problem of traveling through space can be solved by using the precedent of the metaplanar shortcut that spirits use. ie, it travels through metaplanar space like a spirit before popping out on the other side of the barrier. 2. It's probably pure folly to attempt to apply scientific concepts like "space" to magic. |
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Jul 22 2007, 10:42 PM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 5-April 07 From: Vancouver, BC Member No.: 11,383 |
I've gone with the casting travels through space and the effect appears at the spotter and then flys through space to the target. Basically you always need line of sight to cast a spell. The spells effect goes from the whoever has line of sight to the target. So if the team leader has LOS then the spell goes from him to target, if the spotter has LOS then it goes from him to target. Using a link the team leader has LOS to the link. The spell goes from the leader to the link. That means a large area effect spell thrown down in the middle of the spellcasting group at the link could hurt some of the casters if they were close enough to the link. Sorta why everyone would be standing way back from the link.
For flavour it kinda makes me think of the voodoo dolls. You mage burns the doll and the target gets burned. Not the mage uses the doll to channel the magic to the target so the target bursts on fire. |
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Jul 22 2007, 10:43 PM
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#41
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Over and above the questions of Line of Sight, Firebolts don't travel through objects. If you're standing on one side of an armorplast window and your desired target is one the other side, your Firebolt will have to blast through the armor plast before it hits the target. In fact, armorplast windows and Physical Barriers have exactly the same effect on Firebolts that Mana Barriers do. So while it is true that the rules never specifically exempt spells from travelling through intervening Mana Barriers, they likewise (and to the same extent) never exempt them from flying through Physical Barriers. And of course, if they are not exempted from that they don't work at all. Seriously, this is a completely inane argument and I am honestly offended that people are making it. The rules never explicitly define "line of sight", preferring to fall under the common definition of the concept: that being a line between points A and B that is inclusive and broken if there are obstructions along said line. When you bypass the requirement of line of sight, of course you're bypassing intervening objects. Why the fuck wouldn't you be? You aren't drawing a line between A and B!
Really? It sounds exactly like a metaplanar shortcut to me.
Actually, you don't. You have an astral link between the spellcasting and the target. You can follow the trail from the spellcasting to the target, in precisely the same way as you can follow a trail from a sustained spell to its caster (SR4, p. 185). The instant the casting is over the link is just an object. But just as bringing an intervening mana barrier up between a caster and a spell he's sustaining has no effect on either - bringing a mana barrier up between the ritual spellcasting and the target is meaningless to the ritual (though of course it'll bone an astral tracker in either case). Attempting to define a specific path of travel for an effect that does not follow Line of Sight or Range limitations is inane. -Frank |
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Jul 23 2007, 07:04 AM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 5-April 07 From: Vancouver, BC Member No.: 11,383 |
Where in the ritual spellcasting does it say that you bypass line of sight? It says it works exactly like regular spell casting. It also says if you don't have LOS to the target you can have a spotter get LOS for you. You still need LOS with ritual spellcasting.
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Jul 23 2007, 07:14 AM
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#43
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
In the part where we're using sympathetic magic to use a symbolic link to target them.
The chain goes, ritual sorcery needs a spotter. Instead of a spotter you can use a material link. Instead of a material link (with sympathetic metamagic) you can use a sympathetic link. Instead of a sympathetic link, you can use a symbolic link. The symbolic link replaces your spotter. |
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Jul 23 2007, 09:13 AM
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#44
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
We're still stranding on the question of whether
means that it is exactly the same except for the differences explicitly mentioned, or whether it means that anything not explicitly mentioned can be assumed to be non-existent? I mean, metaplanar shortcuts have now been pulled into the equation: and for sure those aren't mentioned anywhere in the books. In fact, the only magicians who have unassisted access to the metaplanes are initiates -- but you don't need to be an initiate to cast a spell. Yet if spells pass through the metaplanes, it seems a non-initiate can access (and perhaps even influence?) the metaplanes.
Pity the poor spotter who is providing the visual link for a fireball!
Book quote, please. And at the same time: please explain how a function (spellcasting) can have a location.
Again, book quote please. The only backtracking I saw mentioned in the ritual magic section is the one where the target can trace the line from the spotter back to the team.
Recognising the devil's advocacy of this :) Besides metaplanes generally though, it raises an interesting point. From p.177:
If the communications link does not extend to the metaplanes, then a spirit on standby ("from whence it came") can't be in the metaplanes. (Direct rules contradiction?) We also have the specification that:
Whatever else, this implies that even in the astral, distance matters and is measurable. Same thing goes with the ally's Sense Link. Put these together -- and does it actually say anywhere in the book that spirits can be summoned on one side of an astral barrier and recalled on the other? By the book: if they go metaplanar, communication is lost. [/end tangent] Hmm ... occurs to me that perhaps the core of the original barrier/spellcasting question is whether the nature of the link, be it sympathetic or symbolic or material or LOS, runs through astral space or the metaplanes -- and whether this is in any way different from the way a non-ritual spell travels. I know that earlier editions of SR specified that spells did travel through the astral. Later ones don't specify. *Laugh* I should perhaps have phrased the question in this thread in terms of a team of runners hiding out from probable corporate ritual retribution. After all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. |
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Jul 23 2007, 09:34 AM
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#45
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
I'd agree, it works the same as mentioned except for differences.
Except, that in order to use a ritual spell without a spotter, you must have the sympathetic metamagic. Which means you ARE an initiate, and have unrestricted access.
Do mages who cast fireballs at people soak the damage too? I've always though of fireball as being much like a rocket, it travels to the target, upon reaching it, explodes to the area it affects.
See above. SM, 29.
See above. SR4, 178 Sidebar
Sure, but I can ritually zap someone across the world as easily as 5 feet away, so as far as ritual spellcasting is concerned, it doesn't have any affect.
Yes, again, see above, SR4, 178 Sidebar.
The arguement is that its clear when it is a regular ritual casting. There is a link from ritual to spotter. Spell goes from spotter to target as normal. The problem is with material, sympathetic, and symbolic magic, there is no LOS from the ritual to the target. Instead, the closest interpretation I can make, is this:
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Jul 23 2007, 09:44 AM
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#46
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
That's the thing I'm having trouble grasping with the people advocating that astral barriers and the like count with ritual spellcasting. If one barrier applies, then -all- barriers between the group and the target apply. Not only that, but it also implies that any and all background counts in the way count as well! Worse still, there's nothing that says the path is a "shortest distance from point A to point B" path. It could literally go anywhere around the world and beyond, thus allowing the bonus dice to skyrocket to anything the GM wants to throw down, assuming that interpretation is correct.
Where do you draw the line with that interpretation? And how do you draw that line and maintain a semblence of believability? Why would only one or two barriers be the limit? |
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Jul 23 2007, 10:42 AM
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#47
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
The reference is specifically to odinson's interpretation, and I was teasing a little. "Effect" usually refers to end-result.
Would it make a difference if some barriers completely surrounded the target, while others were just a Maginot wall? ~ spirit-parallel tangent: Btw I did read p.29 -- had it open beside me while I wrote that post. It doesn't answer the specific questions I asked. And the part of the p.178 sidebar that isn't an optional rule confuses it further: "home in astral space"? (But isn't its home supposed to be one of the metaplanes, and not astral space at all?) And consider p.179:
and then we have p.176:
... Ah, here it is:
So there is relevance to this thread, insofar as a spirit can't just metaplane-hop around a barrier without the barrier having first been breached either by conjurer or by spirit -- and it costs a service to do it. Edit: I think I broke the quote function :D |
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Jul 23 2007, 03:33 PM
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#48
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Sure.
Those are your two options. Option 1 is completely retarded, and Option 2 is entirely plausible. Which is it? -Frank |
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Jul 23 2007, 04:09 PM
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#49
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Talia, I'm curious to why you didn't even touch my logical arguement concluding that mana barriers have no affect on ritual spells.
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Jul 23 2007, 04:28 PM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
By "firebolt", you really mean the single-target indirect elemental fire-based spell, right? If so, I don't find this scenario entirely plausible either. As an indirect combat spell, it's treated like a ranged attack, so you can dodge, go on full defense, etc, etc, etc, right? That doesn't exactly jive with the bolt just "appearing" on the target. It's got to have a trajectory of some kind, even if it's just the spell and not the effect. |
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