(emphasis mine)

In the example in question, a symbolic link is used, and the target is specifically enclosed within an astral barrier. (I'll not specify more, because details may turn out to be relevant.)

Now while I found much in RAW to loosely support the very first sentence where barriers are not explicitly involved -- and much to contradict it where they are involved -- I found nothing to suggest that ritual magic suddenly renders astral barriers irrelevant. Here is what I did find:

The key to ritual magic seems to be that ritual magic requires some form of astral link to the target, be it material or sympathetic or symbolic -- and wards specifically disrupt astral links. The ability to cast a spell ritually does not require access to the metaplanes, only access to the astral -- and mana barriers block the astral.

So I throw open the question to the Dumpshock community: are astral barriers and/or a completely surrounding background count relevant to ritual magic? Are different types of astral barriers less relevant than others?

It doesn't block, just makes the linking test more difficult.

...which is another reason why I am not endeared to magic in SR4.

What are you talking about?

Counterspelling is passive. You only have to be there, you don't need to spot any particular spell you are interfering with. In fact, counterspelling helps you see through illusions and other spell effects that might keep you from being aware of the spells!

Furthermore, wards don't impose fixed thresholds on anything. Castings spells through a ward under any circumstances just gives out extra resistance dice (SR4, p. 185).

If they happen to have someone with that Metamagic, sure. Metamagic is really expensive, so you're talking about a very powerful and very focused character to make this even possible.

-Frank

means.

Does it mean it is exactly the same except for the differences explicitly mentioned? Or does it mean that anything not explicitly mentioned can be assumed to be non-existent?

In the case of Frank's example, the given mana barrier is effectively two-dimensional, under the argument that the "spotter" in this case is the target of the spell itself. However, this is an erroneous assumption: it is very clear that the spotter is only important in order to establish the link between the ritual team and the target, a link that is generated automatically by the use of a material sample or sympathetic magic rather than through the direct perception of the spotter, and a link which, since it can be followed through astral space, must therefore be said to pass through any intervening materials-including all-encompassing astral barriers.

To give a counter-example, imagine that the target is on the other side of a "wall" of FAB II but is not actually encompassed by it. If the spotter is viewing the target through the wall, then the link is effectively passing through the wall as well. However, if the spotter moves-or if the ritual team is using a material or sympathetic link-then the FAB II wall is not in way of the link and poses no difficulty to the ritual team. If the target had instead taken refuge inside a ward, which completely encompasses an area, then the target would benefit from the ward's protection no matter what as the spell would still have to pass through the barrier to effect the target.

You won't believe this, but he's been assigned as my primary care physician in my HMO.

There is no link from the ritual team to the target. There is a link from the team to the spotter. If there was a link from the target to the team then the target would not have to first see the spotter to be able to use astral tracking back to the ritual group. From p175 in the ritual targeting section, "If the spotter is noticed by the target, it is possible to use the link to track her back to the ritual team's physical location." The link they are referring to is that between the spotter and team. Using a spotter the team casts the spell, it travels from the team, through the link and then from the spotter it is cast at the target.

Also note that if the team leader can see the target you don't need a spotter. This would support an argument that the spell would be cast normally and if one was using a spotter the spell would go from him to the target jsut as if you weren't it would go from the team leader to the target.


The only real question is: would any astral barriers along the link between the spotter and team add to the targets resistance of the spell? I would think they wouldn't as you have a solid astral link from point a to point b. It would be like having a wire running through the wall. Things traveling through the wire wouldn't be affected by the wall.


Rereading the section on links in street magic it appears that the situation is completely different. The only difference between the types of links, material, sympathetic, and symbolic, is how effective they are so the exact type doesn't matter. From the material link section, "Ritual groups may also combine material links (and sympathetic links below) with astral spotters to astrally track a target when its location is unknown." So if a spotter can track from the material link to the target then there must be an astral link from the material link to the target. This is probably the exact same sort of link that the spotter has to the ritual team. It doesn't say in the link section but it can probably be argued that the target, if he was to notice the link, would be able to track the other way also. So when the ritual team casts the spell the team leader would target the link, the spell would go from him to the material link and then follow the astral link to the target. So the only impeding astral barriers would be the ones between the team leader and the material link.

No problem. It's a different and much simpler resolution system for ritual sorcery. Ultimately there is one roll on the attack and one roll on the defense, so a lot of the sub-sets that you are dealing with (initiative counts spent fighting spells in astral space on the way in, for example), don't apply.

Right. Counterspelling is simply a quantity that adds universally across spell resistance tests - including ritual spell resistance tests.

Ritual Links can be used to start up Astral Tracking, and that actually is path dependent, because we're back to using a "spotter" who manually traverses astral space in some actual path that can be hampered by astral barriers or ambushes.(see SR4, p. 185). And in that case you actually do have to deal with a threshold increase for tracking through an astral barrier.

So it boils down to this:

• If you have the linking metamagic technique, sending a microwave bomb into the kidnapped girl's head and exploding it it easy.
• But astrally tracking her location is still hard if she's in a warded location.
• If you don't have the linking metamagic technique, sending a microwave bomb into her head is essentially impossible.

-Frank

So what exactly do material, sympathetic, and symbolic links link? (One assumes they are called "links" for a reason.)

Holy shit, the 2 Fs are back. The time of the apocalypse hath come!

That on the other hand is another question that deals with astral barriers and astral links. I only pointed out the difference from the link provided by other means than the spotter.

Thats why in my post I said that that was the important question that needed answering. Also note that there were two paragraphs one for the spotter and one for the material link. The targets of spells cast through the barrier get the barrier as bonus resistance dice. There is nothing about casting a spell along an astral link that goes through a barrier. If you were to rule that any barrier the spell travels through while it travels along the astral link, then when you were to use a spotter and the spotter was to leave the ritual circle and travel through the force 6 wards all along the outside of the building you are in then the target would get that barrier as a bonus resistance dice.

Since the book only has rules for casting through a barrier I would say that while it is traveling along the astral link barriers would not come into account. With the spooter the spell goes from the spotter to the target. Any barrier in the way would count. Using a material link there is an astral link from the material to the target. The spell goes from the team leader to the material link and then travels along the astral link to the target of the spell. If there was a barrier between the caster and the material link then that would come into play as the spell would have to travel through it to get to the link.

Look at it this way.

Sorcery requires you to physically see the location and target of your spell (or, in the case of Elemental Manipulation spells, requires the spell to physically travels to the target destination). Thus any obstacles in the way are fully in play as they are interfering with either your line of sight or the path of the mana you're slinging.

Ritual Spellcasting, on the other hand, largely skips that obstacle. In a fashion more closely related to summoning a spirit than transmitting a radio signal, the magician manifests the magic directly at the destination without worrying about anything in between himself or the target. Because, in fact, there are no obstacles between him and his target. If there were, and he was casting an Elemental Manipulation spell with Ritual Sorcery, then that Fireball would be blasting through everything on the way to the target which just isn't the case.

The link isn't a long cable or magic radio signal. It's just a means that the magician uses to figure out where to manifest the spell effect. This is why it takes so long to cast a ritual spell. They're willing the magic effect to appear somewhere else, not "shoot" the spell there.

Oh, and please keep in mind that I haven't played in a few years and am not fully up to speed on all of the 4th Edition rules, hence the examples over rules citations.

Although, even in e3, it was made absolutely clear that (for example) a standardly-cast combat spell does not physically travel from caster to target but manifests within the target -- and yet the existence of astral barriers affects that casting.

Hmm? I mentioned that.

Those obstacles are interferring with your line of sight to the target. In those cases, there is a "radio signal" type phenomenon in play. Line of sight isn't an issue with ritual spellcasting via a link. It's more like the magician is right there on top of the target, touching them.

I used an Elemental Manipulation spell as an example simply because it was demonstrating the lack of a line of sight type effect with ritual spellcasting. If ritual spellcasting worked like sorcery, basically "extending" the magician's line of sight from their current location to the target, then Elemental Manipulation spells would be affected as such, too, being forced to travel from one to the other.

The third is inseparable from the first two. Seriously.

Objects are either "between" or they are not. An indirect combat spell, for example, is stopped by any physical object that is "between" the caster and the target. An indirect attack spell also allows the target additional damage resistance dice if it has an astral barrier "between" the caster and the target.

Since indirect combat spells are castable through ritual spellcasting at all, this necessarily means that the physical objects are not "between" the caster and the target. And that means that the astral barriers aren't "between" either! They are in the same place, and the rules concerning being "between" are not different.

You are asking for words to mean different things in the same sentence for no reason.

-Frank

The problem is exactly how people view the ritual magic working and how it travels. The books don't specifically say and that is where all the confusion comes in.

If you strip the ritual spellcasting down to it's simplest form you have the ritual group and a target within sight. This negates the need for a spotter or a link. So, if your ritual group was to chant, dance, sacrifice small children or whatever your ritual group does and cast an indirect combat spell would the spell simply manifest at the target or would it travel from the caster to the target? If I read your post right you figure that the fireball or whatever would just appear at the target. That would mean that any mana barriers between you and the target would have no effect.

From the book and what has been quoted here a bunch of times, "Ritual spellcasting works much like regular spellcasting, except that it is cast over a longer period of time and can affect targets outside the magician's visual range. In addition, a group may collaborate and combine their skills using ritual spellcasting to make a spell more potent. (p.174, main book)"

Since it works like regular spell casting and in regular spellcasting an indirect combat spell will manifest and then travel to the target a ritual spell will do the same. This means that the target will get any benefit of astral barriers between the caster and the target.

Now, when the team leader cannot see the target you need to add in the spotter. The spotter is now what provides your line of sight and it also has the astral link to the group. Lacking explicit rules that say the spell simply appears at the target or the spell appears here and travels to here it is reasonable to assume that the results of the spellcasting will be similar to the previous results with the fewest changes possible.

So in the first example you had a ritual group with a leader. The leader had LOS to target. Spell travels from leader to target. Second example you have ritual team with a leader and spotter. Spotter has LOS to target. Spell will travel from spotter to target. This is a more reasonable assumption than having the spell simply appear at the target. It more closely mimics the basic ritual spellcasting which is supposed to by RAW mimic the regular spellcasting.

Using a link would be different. With a link you have an astral link from an object to the target. So Ritual team with leader. Leader has LOS to link. link goes to target. So a spell would travel from caster to the link and since the link and the target are connected the spell would effect the target the same as the link. That also means that any barriers between the team and the link would help the target resist the spell.

I like this view, yours may be different but since there is no 4th ed RAW saying that one is right and the other is wrong either interpretation is correct. Mine is a simple extrapolation from the rules that we currently have. I could be wrong but if you play that the spells simply manifest at the target I would be interested to see how you get to that conclusion.

Really? It sounds exactly like a metaplanar shortcut to me.

Actually, you don't. You have an astral link between the spellcasting and the target. You can follow the trail from the spellcasting to the target, in precisely the same way as you can follow a trail from a sustained spell to its caster (SR4, p. 185). The instant the casting is over the link is just an object. But just as bringing an intervening mana barrier up between a caster and a spell he's sustaining has no effect on either - bringing a mana barrier up between the ritual spellcasting and the target is meaningless to the ritual (though of course it'll bone an astral tracker in either case).

Attempting to define a specific path of travel for an effect that does not follow Line of Sight or Range limitations is inane.

-Frank

The chain goes, ritual sorcery needs a spotter. Instead of a spotter you can use a material link. Instead of a material link (with sympathetic metamagic) you can use a sympathetic link. Instead of a sympathetic link, you can use a symbolic link. The symbolic link replaces your spotter.

means that it is exactly the same except for the differences explicitly mentioned, or whether it means that anything not explicitly mentioned can be assumed to be non-existent?

I mean, metaplanar shortcuts have now been pulled into the equation: and for sure those aren't mentioned anywhere in the books. In fact, the only magicians who have unassisted access to the metaplanes are initiates -- but you don't need to be an initiate to cast a spell. Yet if spells pass through the metaplanes, it seems a non-initiate can access (and perhaps even influence?) the metaplanes.

Pity the poor spotter who is providing the visual link for a fireball!

Book quote, please. And at the same time: please explain how a function (spellcasting) can have a location.

Again, book quote please. The only backtracking I saw mentioned in the ritual magic section is the one where the target can trace the line from the spotter back to the team.

Recognising the devil's advocacy of this Besides metaplanes generally though, it raises an interesting point. From p.177:

If the communications link does not extend to the metaplanes, then a spirit on standby ("from whence it came") can't be in the metaplanes. (Direct rules contradiction?) We also have the specification that:

Whatever else, this implies that even in the astral, distance matters and is measurable. Same thing goes with the ally's Sense Link.

Put these together -- and does it actually say anywhere in the book that spirits can be summoned on one side of an astral barrier and recalled on the other? By the book: if they go metaplanar, communication is lost.

[/end tangent]

Hmm ... occurs to me that perhaps the core of the original barrier/spellcasting question is whether the nature of the link, be it sympathetic or symbolic or material or LOS, runs through astral space or the metaplanes -- and whether this is in any way different from the way a non-ritual spell travels. I know that earlier editions of SR specified that spells did travel through the astral. Later ones don't specify.

*Laugh* I should perhaps have phrased the question in this thread in terms of a team of runners hiding out from probable corporate ritual retribution. After all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

I'd agree, it works the same as mentioned except for differences.

Except, that in order to use a ritual spell without a spotter, you must have the sympathetic metamagic. Which means you ARE an initiate, and have unrestricted access.

Do mages who cast fireballs at people soak the damage too? I've always though of fireball as being much like a rocket, it travels to the target, upon reaching it, explodes to the area it affects.

See above. SM, 29.

See above. SR4, 178 Sidebar

Sure, but I can ritually zap someone across the world as easily as 5 feet away, so as far as ritual spellcasting is concerned, it doesn't have any affect.

Yes, again, see above, SR4, 178 Sidebar.

The arguement is that its clear when it is a regular ritual casting. There is a link from ritual to spotter. Spell goes from spotter to target as normal.

The problem is with material, sympathetic, and symbolic magic, there is no LOS from the ritual to the target. Instead, the closest interpretation I can make, is this:

1. If there is an astral barrier between the spellcaster and the target, the target gets bonus dice equal to force of the barrier on its resistance test. SR4, 174
2. No matter whos astral barrier it is (spellcasters, targets, joe blow's) it provides the bonus dice. SR4, 174
3. Ritual spellcasting requires the group to be inside of a magical lodge with a rating at least as high as the force they are casting at. SR4, 175
4. Magical lodges are mana barriers. SR4, 185
5. In regular ritual spellcasting, a link is made between the ritual and the spotter, and the spell is cast from the spotter to the target. SR4, 175
6. Therefore, the link between ritual and spotter is not affected by mana barriers. Lines 1-5
7. In material/sympathetic/symbolic rituals, a link is made between the material/object/symbol and the target. SM, 29
8. The link between ritual and spotter is the same as between material/object/symbol and target, as they can both be tracked to their linked objects. SR4, 185, SM, 29
9. Therefore, as the link between ritual's and spotters is not affected by an mana barrier, the link between material/object/symbol is also not affected by mana barriers. Lines 6-9

The reference is specifically to odinson's interpretation, and I was teasing a little. "Effect" usually refers to end-result.

Would it make a difference if some barriers completely surrounded the target, while others were just a Maginot wall?

~ spirit-parallel tangent:

Btw I did read p.29 -- had it open beside me while I wrote that post. It doesn't answer the specific questions I asked. And the part of the p.178 sidebar that isn't an optional rule confuses it further: "home in astral space"? (But isn't its home supposed to be one of the metaplanes, and not astral space at all?) And consider p.179:

and then we have p.176:

...
Ah, here it is:

So there is relevance to this thread, insofar as a spirit can't just metaplane-hop around a barrier without the barrier having first been breached either by conjurer or by spirit -- and it costs a service to do it.

Edit: I think I broke the quote function

Sure.

• Option 1: You ritually cast through a symbolic link, bypassing the expilicit requirement for line of sight, but leaving all other portions of the spellcasting unchanged. Your Firebolt then flies directly towards your enemy by the shortest possible route and ignoring the fact that you can't see the target. It strikes the nearest physical object and puts a hole in it - spell over.
  .
• Option 2: You ritually cast through a symbolic link, bypassing the explicit requirement for line of sight, and by extension bypassing any impediments that would be along the way if you were tracking line of sight. The Firebolt appears on the target, who bursts into flames.

Those are your two options. Option 1 is completely retarded, and Option 2 is entirely plausible. Which is it?

-Frank

By "firebolt", you really mean the single-target indirect elemental fire-based spell, right?

If so, I don't find this scenario entirely plausible either.

As an indirect combat spell, it's treated like a ranged attack, so you can dodge, go on full defense, etc, etc, etc, right?

That doesn't exactly jive with the bolt just "appearing" on the target. It's got to have a trajectory of some kind, even if it's just the spell and not the effect.