 Dragon challenge, Taking down a dragon, SR4 style |
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 Jul 21 2007, 03:27 AM
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#301
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Prime Runner  Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665  |
OK. The Force of the spell limits hits, not net hits. So that calculation is applied before the spell is resisted. However, all is not lost.
So in your example, our hero is rolling:
The resolution is inaccurate. The character rolls 128 normal dice and 7 edge dice. This generates about 42 hits that are capped at 20 and about 2 hits that are not. It further generates about 22 dice that aren't capped at anything. They generate more hits, and so on and so forth. It converges of course to 20 capped hits and 11.3333 hits that are uncapped. And then in your example, the dragon doesn't get dice from the barrier because you're bypasisng that topology. So we're looking at only 60 dice - granting an uninspiring 24 hits. Of course, he'd be a god damned idiot to do it that way, he should reroll failures instead, giving him 52 dice with a reroll, that nets an average of 28.889 hits - just short of the 31.333 hits required to not die. A winner is you! Congratulations Tarantula, yours is the first complete writeup of a victory over the Dragon. -Frank |
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Jul 21 2007, 03:31 AM
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#302
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
2 things:
1) hits are capped, not net hits. as such, you're looking at 23 hits. 2) the mages have spent more than that, because they have bought and bound a focus (you've calculated it into their dicepool). that being said, you can just screw with the dragon's head... there are ways of dealing damage that are not based on direct combat spells. the dragon will need to be able to counterract combat spells (the direct approach... though arguably an indirect combat spell can be cast ritually, and will not allow the dragon to benefit nearly half as much from counterspelling. that does increase the drain, of course, but since your hits are capped anyways, move the initiate team's focus to their drain dicepool, and add in a power focus instead if you like). additionally, the dragon will need to safeguard against health spells (decrease a mental attribute to 0, and one guy sustains and they all repeat the ritual, this time the dragon doesn't have any spellcasting apart from his wards/whatever and likely won't resist a direct combat spell anyways... assuming the dragon's bound spirits don't go berserk and kill it for you, that is). the dragon must also guard against manipulation spells (horrible, horrible things can be done to it with mental manipulations, and damage can be done with ignite, incapacitation can also be accomplished using turn to goo, petrify, etc; repeat attack as for health spells). finally, the dragon must guard against illusion spells which incapacitate it... agony is the only one that i know has a guaranteed incapacitate, the rest say "at GM's discretion" (again, repeat ritual with damaging spell for best results) so that means it needs 4 different categories of counterspelling bonuses... not looking so good for the dragon now, is it? (not to mention that if you do hit it with an indirect combat spell, counterspelling officially only adds to damage resist, and won't make the spell fizzle... repeat for best results) oh, and just for the record... if you can pull it off, an astral/mana window spell can be very handy for assensing people who sit around behind a astral/mana barriers... seems like the exact kind of spell a ritual sorcery team relying on being able to assense the target to craft sympathetic links would want to invest in (start by targeting the lair, or it's door, and you can proceed to scout the rest of the lair as if with clairvoyance/astral clairvoyance. note that this also helps a lot with scouting the location, should the team have to go in physically, though obviously hidden defensive devices may not be noticed.) |
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Jul 21 2007, 03:52 AM
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#303
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Jaid, I did note it. They have the skills nessisary to craft the foci and the lodge at cost, they bought the kits to do so. It would take time, a massive amount of it, which is covered in the time they took to aquire 12million and 200 karma collectively. Given that they're a magical group of dragon slayer following mages, it really isn't unreasonable to think that their entire focus is towards being able to slay dragons.
I'd like to hear from Talia on this one before I accept the award, but thank you, thank you. Is it surprising that the mentor spirit best suited for making a group of dragon slayers was the dragon slayer mentor spirit? |
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Jul 21 2007, 07:32 AM
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#304
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Talia is still working through the thread.
However, one thing jumps out at me almost at once: I don't think you have factored in the making of the symbolic link. Use the "Creator is personally unfamiliar with the target" modifer for threshold = 16. Interval = 1 day. (p.29, Street Magic). Edit: you haven't. 24 hours is still your absolute limit. There's also a few more things you haven't taken into account wrt Counterspelling, fyi -- new post on these. |
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Jul 21 2007, 08:40 AM
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#305
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Making of the symbolic link has already been mentioned. Please factor this into your time, skills, and resources. You have not assensed the dragon until you tell me exactly how you are doing it -- combat turn by combat turn.
A touch spell, isn't it? :) (Yes, I noticed that one.) Let me know when the caster is within range. Overcasting to 20 Force can be done. Specific to counterspelling notes:
I'll point out that shadowrunners are habitually that paranoid -- and they don't have dragonhunters out gunning for them. ;)
You'll have lost much if not all of your 24 hours to the making of the symbolic link. However, even with the one hour both ways, what you get is simultaneity resolved by initiative score. The dragon's is higher. (Outside this scenario, it's an interesting tactic to take wrt ritual magic, for very powerful PCs.) I am going to assume you also used divination to find out whether this tactic would be successful. I can tell you it isn't -- there are a couple of very specific factors you didn't take into account. I won't tell you yet what they are: but I am rather pleased to notice that I'd already allowed for this. (Fyi -- I finished writing up the file on the dragon yesterday, including its tactics and abilities. I'll let you know where you can find it on the Internet after the scenario is concluded.) Quite apart from that, I find nothing in the RAW to support Frank Trollman's assertion that:
I've read and re-read the sections involved, and nowhere does it say that astral barriers are completely irrelevant to a ritual casting. The only even sidewise reference I find is p.174 (main book):
Regular spellcasting specifically is affected by astral barriers. P.185:
The ability to cast a spell ritually does not require access to the metaplanes, only access to the astral -- and mana barriers block the astral. I have just spent some time hunting through Dumpshock to look for previous discussion, in case someone turned up something I had missed. Everything I found seems to assume the opposite: that wards are indeed relevant to ritual magic. The key point seems to be that ritual magic requires an astral link, be it material or sympathetic or symbolic -- and wards specifically disrupt astral links. So, Frank Trollman: can you provide me a book quote that specifically states that ritual magic ignores wards? (I find it somewhat astounding that in this tightly RAW-focused thread, not one person questioned this.) Edit: opened a new thread to specifically ask about this. The ruling in this thread will be bound by its direction. |
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Jul 21 2007, 02:07 PM
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#306
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
From p.12:
Assuming this challenge is still alive after the discussion of the new thread, apparently there is a point here which requires clarification. It's a bit surprising to me that it does -- since I'd rather assumed it self-evident before, most of all in a roleplaying game. A roleplaying scenario cannot be solved by math alone. Corollary 1: In any roleplaying scenario there is no "I WIN" button, any more than there is a "PLAYERS LOSE" button. Corollary 2: Winning and succeeding are not the same thing. Numbers are important -- one reason why I took the random element entirely out of this scenario -- but numbers are far from the only factor in triumphing in a given encounter. Scenarios of this kind bring in something more than a simple mathematical clash of rules against rules. We know exactly what the odds will be for any given play: and yet people play through games of chess anyway, even at the highest levels, and have for centuries. To try to reduce even the most basic of roleplaying scenarios down to "hitting the 'I WIN' " button is exactly the same thing as assuming that actually playing through a game of chess is no longer necessary now that a grandmaster has been beaten by Deep Blue. If it turns out that Frank Trollman is right, then -- if the members of this thread so choose -- in combat time we run through the few points the ritual team has overlooked to find out if they succeed. If they do succeed, then they succeed. So be it. But if it turns out that the assumption was inaccurate, then the challenge still very much exists. Not to tell anyone what is the right and wrong way of roleplaying: but you might gain much, much more out of this thread if you treat it as something more than a solely mathematical equation. Courtesy of Talia Invierno, author of the not-yet-existing "Everything I Needed In Life, I Learned On The Chess Board." |
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Jul 21 2007, 04:11 PM
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#307
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
actually, he took care of the crafting of the sympathetic link... he rushed the job, making it take half the time (interval 12 hours) and then simply generated a sufficiently large dice pool to accomplish the task in a single interval.
as with all detection spells, touch range on mana window and astral window is deceptive; you cast the spell on the person you are giving the new sense to, and the sense can extend out to a certain distance. all they need is an accomplice (ally spirit recommended, but not required) within range of the dragon's lair, to target their spell on, and then the ally's master can look through it's eyes and whatnot. |
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Jul 21 2007, 05:45 PM
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#308
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Apologies -- yes, I did miss that. Fair enough.
Yes -- but it still requires someone or something not of the area to come within that distance of the dragon's lair. That's why I ask for combat turns to begin from that point. |
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Jul 21 2007, 06:26 PM
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#309
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
the astral window spell at extended range can be cast by the ritual team at force 10 and most likely go through the barrier easily (a force 30 barrier would statistically be needed to block it; we could go lower than force 10 spell, but the range on that means you can look as far as 1 km, which means the subject of the spell need not be terribly close.
of course, if there was a way to increase the range of a detection spell similar to the way to increase/decrease the AOE of a area spell, we could really get some ridiculous range, and could probably cast from several miles away. in any event, 1 km should be sufficient to keep the dragon from knowing where to strike, and the subject need not be there for very long (ideally the subject would be a perception adept, but that's just overkill) |
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Jul 21 2007, 06:55 PM
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#310
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Ignore me ... brain fart! :eek:
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Jul 21 2007, 08:09 PM
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#311
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
The big problem is that this does rely on as an astrally projecting magician assensing the dragon - the dual natured dragon. We can see where this can go wrong, can't we? The dragon will probably notice the magician. If he does, then he has one of two choices. He can kill the lone astral idiot; he can follow the astral idiot back to the team and then kill him; he can wait and send his spirits on remote remote services to find him and kill the entire team; he can send watcher spirits out to observe them and report back to him on their actions via his mental link with the spirit, which would make their plan quite obvious. He could then easily disrupt either the ritual spellcasting or the crafting of the link by having spirits attack the team or doing it himself during the ritual (since one member of the team must be astrally active).
In the end, I believe that removing the random element is a mistake. If everyone plays perfectly, then the game will always end in a stalemate. The random element is the only thing that prevents the game from reaching Nash Equilibrium, particularly in a challenge like this. |
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Jul 21 2007, 08:27 PM
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#312
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i dunno, i mean, do dragons just kill every projecting mage they see?
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Jul 21 2007, 08:32 PM
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#313
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
When they invade the dragon's heavily fortified World War III-proof top secret underground lair, I'd imagine so.
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Jul 21 2007, 09:03 PM
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#314
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i guess if the dragon never leaves that lair, that'd be an issue. i mean, the assensing test is definitely the weak link, but i don't think it's all that hard to overcome unless there are tight time constraints. put out a few quiet feelers, find out a few general things about the dragon's habits, and then just have a mage hang out on the astral at a location the dragon frequents. you just need a few quick seconds to get a look at the dragon, and you're done.
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Jul 21 2007, 09:27 PM
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#315
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Core spell, as cited, is a touch spell. We are sticking to core material, here. Yes, I know that there is allowance in Street Magic for making new spells and adapting old ones: but we are sticking strictly and solely to what is directly given for ease of common interpretation. "Slay Dragon" is an acceptable variant, covered under "One Less [Metatype/Species]". Changing the range of a spell to a non-cited variant is not. ... although extended range would also be the point at which I will be starting combat turns.
You mean ... like the one that appears just outside his lair, aura full of "I plan to kill you" colours? The dragon is probably at least as paranoid as any runner. After all, even a great dragon has been killed in the Sixth World -- and there are dragonhunters out there. In your favour, I'm not letting it know about you guys specifically until and unless you draw its attention. 24 hours. Kill or be killed. Considering all the objection to that time limit, I suspect several people are probably discovering another reason for it -- that is, besides avoiding the army v. army scenario :spin: |
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Jul 21 2007, 09:41 PM
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#316
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i wasn't aware of the 24-hour limitation. that seriously, seriously favors the defender.
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Jul 21 2007, 09:51 PM
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#317
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
The use of mana window to look into the lair would most likely trigger and one of the numerous intrusion detection spells that a sane dragon would have quickened, such as detect magic. Actually, detect magic would be the exact spell that this triggers, meaning that the dragon would be aware of the clairvoyant intrusion. For that matter, as a dual being he might notice the magical floating point-of-view, assense it, and use its signature to track down the mage. All he's have to do is send a spirit with Search to find the character that cast the spell. It is less dangerous, but it is still very dangerous.
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Jul 21 2007, 09:52 PM
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#318
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Also there is nothing preventing a ritual casting of Astral Window by touching the subject and then allowing the subject to use the spell at range, and an extended range version of all Detection Spells is RAW, hell the book even tells you to simply take the existing Drain Value +2.
*Edit* Sure, it's still dangerous, but under Talia Invierno's wargame rules the Dragon doesn't get to spend Karma, so no quickened spells, no sustaining foci, ect... |
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Jul 21 2007, 10:35 PM
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#319
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
He'd still get a perception test to see the floating point of view that the spell creates, since he is dual-natured. I don't know if you'd be able to use infiltration when directing a magical point of view.
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Jul 21 2007, 10:44 PM
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#320
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
No, the Core Spell has the standard range for the Detection category of Force x Magic in meters. The 'Touch' aspect of the Spell comes into play because the Sam the mage can cast it on another Subject (whom he must touch) like Joe, and Joe could then use the Spell himself. |
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Jul 22 2007, 12:14 AM
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#321
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
This type of of scenario cannot by any stretch of the imagination be called "roleplaying." If Shadowrun is ever a "rollplaying" game, this is when it would be so. You are having us create a team with millions of nuyen and karma, IN A VACUUM, to address exactly one KNOWN scenario. These characters will show up, attempt to kill the dragon, and then disappear into the ether. As such, we are encouraged to create characters that are overly specialized to deal with this exact one known scenario; this isn't "roleplaying", it's a flipping board game. |
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Jul 22 2007, 12:30 AM
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#322
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
You never play one shot scenarios?
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Jul 22 2007, 12:57 AM
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#323
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
In my experience, one shots, especially ones as simplistic as this one -- "Yeah, you've got a contract to kill a dragon. It's here *points at lair on map*. Get at it." -- have little or no role playing. There's little or no time to bond to or flesh out the character, and because you're going to can the character when it's over, there's little or no consequence for failure/dying. All in all, the forces involved tend to reduce the game to rollplaying, and to expect otherwise is... naive. IMO. |
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Jul 22 2007, 02:10 AM
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#324
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
LOL! Sorry, I didn't realize you were the one being in creation whose experiences were truly universal. :D
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Jul 22 2007, 02:11 AM
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#325
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
Hence, IMO.
But even so, don't you agree that expecting the assumption role playing in such a "challenge" scenario is a bit much? I mean, take a look at Tarantula's group. Does that really look like role playing to you? Cause it looks like roll playing to me. |
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