The SR3 concepts of Indirect, Direct, and Physical Manipulations path to the target are no longer relevant to SR4.

Given that the Ritual Spellcasting normally requires a spotter to be assensing the target, it's not unreasonable to me that Symbolic Link replaces this requirement and in all other ways the Ritual Spellcasting works the same.

So does that mean that you have ritually cast flamedarts flying all over the place dodging walls, ect?

*Edit*

And more importantly, how does that work without breaking the "Magic can not make choises" rule?

This is time for an important qualifier on this discussion.

• The spell Flame Thrower isn't normally affected in any way by being cast through a warded area. It's a purely physical spell and does not allow targets to make a Spell Resistance roll, so at no time does it matter if the target is behind a mana barrier (any more than it would matter if the target had a super huge Object Resistance).

A Flame Thrower normally goes from point A to point B resolved as a ranged attack, and thereafter if it hits does actual fire damage which is then resisted as damage is normally resisted. Effects which add to spell resistance don't apply at all, though as listed on page 196 characters who are benefitting from Counterspelling get to add said Counterspelling to their Damage Resistance.

So the reason I keep bringing physical barriers into this discussion is because those are in fact the only thing that Flame Thrower is normally impeded by if it uses its normal LOS qualifications.

---

So the question is: why would Flame Thrower be affected in any way by a mana barrier when ritually cast if it isn't affected when normally cast?

So once we've established that Flame Thrower can go from the caster through the link to the target and not get blocked by any obstructions (whether made of pure willpower or concrete), then we can have the second discussion of whether Mana Bolt bypasses a Mana Barrier.

Remember: when there's a mana barrier and a concrete barrier, the Flame Thrower spell only checks the concrete barrier. If we can agree that it doesn't check that barrier if cast without LOS, then it seems like a slam dunk that Mana Bolt ignores the Mana Barrier...

-Frank

Ah, but the target does get a resistance roll:

1. "If the spell hits, the target resist with Body + half Impact armor (+Counterspelling, if available)..." (sr4.196)
2. "Should a magician try to cast a spell through a barrier, the target of the spell adds the Force of the barrier to its resistance dice pool." (sr4.185)

I need convincing that the first pool of dice referenced is not added to by the mana barrier as in 2.

EDIT: I think that you are trying to say that there is a special class of pool that a spell is normally resisted with that mana barriers add to (and it is this class that mana barriers add to exclusively), and that Indirect combat spells don't use this special class of pool. In SR3, as I recall, this was true. In SR4, I am not sure.

Spell Resistance =/= Damage Resistance.

Object Resistance can sub in for a Resistance Roll.
Passing a spell through a Mana Barrier adds to a Resistance roll.
Counterspelling adds to a Resistance Roll.

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But Damage Resistance is a whole different animal. As per page 196, that's all you get if your Defense Roll fails.

On page 174 it specifies that objects still get their Armor against Indirect Combat Spells (during Damage Resistance), though they don't get their Object Resistance threshold. On page 196 it specifies that Counterspelling adds to Damage Resistance against Indirect Combat Spells (which allows it to do anything, since it normally adds to a roll that the target isn't making).

But you know what? Mana Barriers don't ever say that they add to Damage Resistance against anything. They add to "Resistance Rolls" and targets of Indirect Combat spells don't make those checks. Period.

The Resistance Test is defined on page 173. The Defense Test is detailed on page 150. They are not the same test.

-Frank

Spell resistance test:

Okay, but see, here's where my confusion comes in.

1. Direct combat spells get a "spell resistance test."
2. Indirect combat spells get a "damage resistance test." (in addition to the opposed reaction roll)

But I don't see where it says that mana barriers are applied to any specific resistance test, it just says "resistance dice pool"

I take it to mean, "Any resistance test that is caused by the spell."

EDIT:

If you don't specify and you leave ambiguity like that, you're leaving it open to interpretation.

You choose to interpret it narrowly, and insert the word "spell" into the sentence.

I choose to interpret it broadly and apply it to any test that is a "resistance test". It's a matter of classification. "Spell resistance test" is a class of resistance test. "Damage resistance test" is a class of resistance test. "Drain resistance test" is a class of resistance test. "Resistance test" is a class of test.

There is a clear class hierarchy here.

When I read the sentence:

"Should a magician try to cast a spell through a barrier, the target of the spell adds the Force of the barrier to its resistance dice pool."

Instead of just saying, "Oh, I know they must have meant spell resistance, so let me just insert the word 'spell'", I say, "What if they deliberately left the word 'spell' out, and are intending to refer to the class 'resistance' as opposed to class 'spell resistance'."

It's just a matter of viewpoint.

Well, IMO, it's pretty stupid to ignore the class hierarchy and automatically assume that when a member in the hierarchy is referenced that it's a specific sub-member that is meant, instead of the member itself.

*laugh* ... I could say something about the value of arguments that have to keep returning to ad hominem attacks such as "dumb" and "stupid".

But I won't.

For example, let's do something stupid with the way I see your interpretation.

sr4.67, under Spending Edge: "You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit."

Hmm, they didn't specify what kind of test. Hmm. *rolls a die*. Let's insert the word "Build and Repair". Yeah, that's the ticket.

*Edit to be less obnoxious*

Indexes are lists of words, sometimes with sub-headings containing related words -- keyword being there being sometimes -- that reference pages in the book where those words occur.

They're not rules, and they don't imply any structure in the rules. They're simply lists of words and references. That's it.

As evidence, I refer you to the "Wi-Fi" entry, which has the entries "detection" and "negation" under them. By your logic then, detection and negation are classes of "Wi-Fi", which is obviously absurd.

Your argument is invalid on that basis.

What kind of mana barrier are we talking about here? The spell or the class that includes the spell? Because i agree that the SPELL Mana Barrier won't stop an indirect combat spell (like fireball) but the spell Physical Barrier will help to stop it (Wether it stops the spell on it's own or not depends on the force's involved).

That being said, aren't magical lodges and wards duel natured? So they would add their force to resist ANY spell that was cast through them that did not come from their 'guest list' right? i.e. the person who made them can cast spells through and let others cast spells through but no one else.

Any confusion arising from this post is 100% my fault for not explaining well enough.

Talia, I completely missed that. I've got some thinking to do now.

Exactly.

Which is why I used a spell like Lightning Bolt in my original example. It demonstrates this perfectly. IF the spell were traveling from the ritual group to the victim, THEN it would be affected by any intervening obstacles. Mana barriers included. Thus IF that were true, a spell like Lightning Bolt would have to follow the same rules, meaning it would manifest at the group and physically travel the world to it's target.

Here's the best way to look at ritual spellcasting in my opinion:

When using a material/sympathetic/symbolic link, the ritual group isn't casting the spell at the target. They're casting the spell at the link and the "magic" of the ritual spellcasting causes the target -- wherever they may be in the world -- to also be affected. That voodoo witchdoctor isn't stabbing his target when he jabs the doll; he's jabbing the doll and the magic imbued within it and the ritual itself stabs the target. It's why ritual spellcasting has its own rules. Why it has its own skill. Why it takes hours upon hours upon hours to perform.

Ritual spellcasting isn't the same as sorcery, though there are a few similarities rules wise to keep things simple. The lack of requiring line of sight -- and thus the reprecussions of having line of sight -- are one of the major perks of the ability. The spell doesn't travel anywhere; it manifests either at the spotter and then is "cast" at the target from him, or manifests directly at the target via the ritual link. There is no "inbetween" distance from the group to the target.

I think the spell most certainly does not travel from the ritual caster to the target. This would have been mentioned for certain, and then rules would have been put forth to govern how the spell travels. Such a traveling of the spell also contradicts the real world myths this magical skill is based on. The real question we have to answer before we can make the decision on whether or not mana barriers are involved is to discover how this link to the target is being established. How is the ritual caster able to manipulate mana from a remote location?

The ritual caster is somehow able to get a spell to manifest at a location completely separate from his own astral presence. So, how is he able to do this? As I explained earlier, he is manipulating magic remotely. The link is what allows him to know the location of where to manipulate that mana and focus it. How is he manipulating this mana since his astral presence is not there? Maybe these links allow the magician to some how extend out a "persona" that manipulates the mana locally where the target is. He is literally, by proxy, manipulating the mana from a remote location. This is the only way I can think to explain what is happening. And, on second thought, if it happens this way, I would have to agree with Frank and Dr. F that a mana barrier is not included. Especially after Dr. F's last paragraph in the previous post.

The above still does not fully answer how the ritual caster is able to remotely and by proxy cast a spell on a target. For there is one mystery remaining. What is allowing the ritual caster to "link" to the link. He has to somehow be accessing this link to use it and thus cast this spell and have it manifest at the location of the link. Is this some form of a metaplanar shortcut as Valevictus put it. Or, is this some inherant mystery to astral space not working exactly like the meatworld. Thus, it becomes very difficult to rationalize it through our standard way of thinking.

Is there anything possibly from an SR source that could explain this?

I've watched you guys debating and something that I keep coming back to is a comment above about water traveling downhill following the path of least resistance. What about making a ruling thusly: unless the target is enclosed within a mana barrier (e.g., a magical lodge) then regardless of how the spell's effect "arrives" at the target, it can avoid stationary, non-enclosing mana barriers because they are resistive. The enclosing mana barrier, however, offers no path of least resistance and, thus, dice are added to the ritual test.

You know, no one has yet shown why links can't act as topologically equivalent to line of sight. We do know they provide the same effect as LOS: a link to a target. What's under debate is whether the effect is of the same quality (affectable by an astral barrier).

As to quantum: well, then links would be spontaneously flickering in and out of existence, which is how electrons can be spotted but never frozen on both sides of a non-permeable barrier -- but we know they don't. Once a link is established, it is absolutely reliable, barring only a single metamagic which requires the target to take action. Quantum links, by definition, aren't.

It's closest to the totally-overlooked-and-dismissed-earlier-in-this-thread ability of a spirit to manifest from the metaplanes to anywhere they're summoned without having to worry about wards or other barriers.

Most notably a Free Spirit's ability to instantly be "teleported" to the person who speaks their True Name (not sure if SR4 has such a rule, to be honest). Invoke their name and *POOF!* they're right there before the speaker regardless of where they were prior; even on the Physical Plane.

This is, again, one of the reasons ritual spellcasting takes so damn long. The team is essentially tapping into the same type of phenomenon and applying sorcery to it. It's a difficult, arduous process. They either manifest the effect within their spotter, casting it through them, or effectively manifest themselves directly at the target and cast at point blank range. There is no group-to-target string when using ritual spellcasting other than the astral signatures left behind, which is a result of the magic manifesting rather than magic flowing from the team to the target and everywhere in between.

I agree, Frank, but it seems like Talia originally want to explore ways that allowed mana barriers to impact ritual spellcasting. I personally prefer the quantum entanglement sort of approach that you and the good Doctor are advocating, but this interpretation can circumvent mana barriers as was noted in the post prior to this one..

Of course, she's trying to save a certain dragon of hers.

Or, possibly, your ritual team. The dragon already survives, even without this. (I did mention in that thread that you guys had overlooked a couple of things.)

Not my team, I'm still all for simply blowing the entire lair to bits using magically buried explosives, but I must have missed the post where it was explained how the dragon would survive once it was explained how Astral Window actually works.

After some thinking, I've come up with some reasoning to why the mana barriers aren't going to effect the ritual spell. This goes into some of the explanations of how magic works, but here goes... Magic targets entities. You can't powerbolt someones foot, you can only affect them as a whole. In ritual magic, either you have a spotter, who is the one who "casts" the spell at the target. Or you have some sort of link. Material, sympathetic, or symbolic. With a material link, its a part of the target that is still alive (its why material samples have a certain timeperiod of usefullness, afterwhich they don't work for ritual magic). That time period is only while the sample is still alive. Why does that work? Because, much like how you can't only powerbolt someones foot, if you ritually powerbolt their just recently connected foot, it affects not only that foot, but the rest of them as well, even if they might not still be connected. Sympathetic rituals take that one step further, allowing you to affect them through a magical link they've created with an object. This works the same as the material sample, that your spell hits the object, and then also hits the target, because of their magical link. Symbolic magic goes one step again, and allows you to create a symbol of the target, and use that to forge a magical link to the target through their similarites. You hit the symbol with your spell, and through the magical link, the target is affected the same way.

Thusly, the path of a "spell" in a material ritual is from the leader of the ritual, to the material link. The target is then affected by the spell, and gets a chance to try to resist/counterspell it. In a sympathetic ritual (whether sympathetic or symbolic), the path is from the ritual leader, to the object/symbol. The spell hits that, and through magics way of affecting only whole objects (which, since the target is "linked" to the object/symbol in the same way it is to a material link) it also affects the target. Thusly, no matter how many barriers are in the way, there is no penalty to using ritual magic to hit a target. (Now, the only issue is in the case of indirect combat spells, and how they actually get to the target.)