SR4 - current FanPro D newsletter

SR4 - current FanPro D newsletter

Options

MYST1C

Apr 4 2005, 04:02 PM

Post #1

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 858
Joined: 25-August 03
From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States
Member No.: 5,537

Today's German FanPro newsletter gives some details about SR4.
First, the German original for those who understand, second an English translation done with Google (a bit rough). Note the bold section in the English text - it talks about the new skill check system!

QUOTE

Okay, und was kommt da - jetzt so wirklich in echt - auf uns zu? Kurz
gesagt, ein neues, vollständig überarbeitetes Regelwerk und eine
leicht veränderte und zudem 5 Jahre in die Zukunft katapultierte
Hintergrundwelt. Fangen wir mal mit dem Hintergrund an: Das typische
Shadowrun-Flair, die Mischung aus Magie und Technologie in einer
düsteren, von Megakonzernen regierten Welt, bleibt voll und ganz
erhalten, aber vor allem die Technologie macht einen großen Schritt
nach vorn, der schon lange notwendig war, um die 6. Welt wieder in
Einklang mit der (zu erwartenden) Zukunft unserer eigenen Welt zu
bringen. Die Welt ist nun kabellos ("wireless"), die zunehmende
Miniaturisierung und Energieeffizienz hat dazu geführt, dass sich jede
Art von Elektronik problemlos in einer Armbanduhr oder einer Brille
unterbringen lässt, und die Speicherkapazität hat solche Ausmaße
erreicht, dass ein einzelner Chip eine quasi unbegrenzte Datenmenge
aufnehmen kann. Nicht dass es notwendig wäre, Daten noch
abzuspeichern, weil sie nämlich über die allgegenwärtige Matrix
jederzeit abgerufen werden können. Eine phantastische, wunderbare neue
Welt, die sich uns da auftut - und die selbstredend eine um so
düsterere Kehrseite aufweist, in der die Shadowrunner ihren heimlichen
Geschäften nachgehen.

Die allgegenwärtige "Augmented Reality" (überlagerte Realität) der
Matrix soll aber auch dazu dienen, den Decker, der bislang ein eher
tristes Dasein am Rande der rollenspielerischen Handlung fristete,
zurück ins Spiel zu integrieren. Gemeinsam mit dem Rigger verschmilzt
er zum Hacker, der sich auf die Manipulation bestimmter Aspekte der
ihn umgebenden elektronischen Welt - Sicherheitssysteme, Drohnen,
Fahrzeuge - spezialisieren kann, oder von allem ein bißchen
beherrscht, und damit ein wertvoller, wenn nicht sogar
überlebensnotwendiger Bestandteil einer jeden Gruppe wird.

Abgesehen von dieser Zusammenfügung der Aufgabenbereiche hat sich an
der Charaktererschafftung nicht viel geändert - an die Stelle des
Prioritätensystems ist ein punktbasierendes System getreten, dass es
den Spielern ermöglicht, sich ihren Shadowrunner ganz nach Wunsch
maßzuschneidern. Archetypen wird es natürlich auch geben, aber wie
schon bei den früheren Editionen dienen sie nur als
Orientierungshilfe. Ein Klassen- oder Stufensystem ist nicht
vorgesehen, stattdessen gibt es weiterhin die bewährten Karmapunkte,
mit denen sich die Charaktere langsam aber stetig verbessern können.

Eine starke Veränderung hat es bei den Fertigkeitsproben gegeben. Ich
bitte um Verständnis, dass ich darüber im Moment noch nicht allzu viel
verraten darf (zumal sich die Details dieser Regeln auch noch im
Spieltest befinden), aber prinzipiell wird jeweils ein Attributs- und
ein Fertigkeitswert miteinander kombiniert und dann die entsprechende
Anzahl guter alter W6 gegen einen festen Mindestwurf von 5+ gewürfelt.
Das ist der Kern der neuen Mechanik, auf dem alles andere aufbaut. Die
Basisregeln passen auf zwei bis drei Seiten, und sobald man sich mit
ihnen vertraut gemacht hat, ist der Rest ein Kinderspiel. Im Gegensatz
zu früheren Versionen verzichten wir strikt auf Spezial- und
Ausnahmeregeln, sondern beziehen uns immer wieder auf die
zugrundeliegenden Mechaniken. Diese Vorgehensweise wird sich durch die
gesamten Regeln erstrecken. Hat man die ersten zwei bis drei Seiten
der Magieregeln gelesen, dann weiß man, wie Zauberei funktioniert -
alles weitere dient nur dazu, die Spieltiefe und Detailvielfalt zu
erhöhen, nimmt dabei aber immer wieder Bezug auf die grundlegenden
Regeln. Ebenso die Matrixregeln, die Fahrzeugregeln, die Kampfregeln,
usw. Ziel ist es, dass sich ein Spieler oder Spielleiter die Regeln
einmal durchliest und danach nur noch die Details nachschlagen muss.
Ratlose Gesichter, endloses Nachschlagen und vor allem Spielleiter,
die frustriert sagen "na gut, dann machen wir das jetzt einfach
folgendermaßen ..." sollen ein Ding der Vergangenheit werden. Das
bedeutet aber auch, dass die Regeln der 4. Edition mit denen der 3.
Edition nicht kompatibel sind. Es wird natürlich Konvertierungsregeln
geben, um Charaktere der 3. Edition auf die 4. Edition umzurüsten, und
die Hintergrundinformationen in den Quellenbücher bleiben weiterhin
relevant.

QUOTE

Okay, and which comes there - now so really in genuine - to us? Briefly said, a new, completely revised set of rules and easily changed and besides 5 years into the future catapulted background world. We begin times with the background: The typical Shadowrun Flair, the mixture made of magic and technology in a dark, of megacompanies governed world, remain full and whole, but above all the technology makes a large step forward, which was necessary already for a long time, around the 6. To bring world back in agreement with (the one which can be expected) the future of our own world. The world is now slackly ("wireless"), the increasing miniaturization and energy efficiency to the fact led that each kind of electronics can be accommodated problem-free in a wrist-watch or eyeglasses, and the storage capacity reached such extents that an individual chip can take up a quasi unlimited data set. That it would not be necessary to still store data because they can be called up over the pervasive matrix at any time. A fantastic, marvelous new world, which opens itself there us - and those naturally a the darker drawback exhibits, in which the Shadowrunner follow to their secret business. The pervasive "Augmented Reality" (overlaid reality) in addition, of the matrix is to serve for it, the Decker, which fristete so far rather trichloroethylene width unit an existence at the edge of the rollenspielerischen action to integrate back in the play. Together with the Rigger it merges into the hacker, who can specialize in the manipulation of certain aspects it surrounding electronic world - safety systems, drones, vehicles -, or of everything a little controls, and so that more valuable, if a not even survive-necessary component of each group becomes. Apart from this joining the fields in the Charaktererschafftung much it did not change - to the place of the priority system a point-based system stepped that it makes possible for the players, itself its Shadowrunner completely according to desire measurement cutters. It will naturally also give ark types, but like already with the earlier editions they serve only than guideline assistance. A class or a stage system is not intended, instead there is further the proven Karmapunkte, with which the characters can slowly however constantly improve. A strong change gave it with the talent samples. I ask for understanding the fact that I may betray over it for the moment not yet all too much (particularly the details of these rules also still in played itself finds), but an attribute and a talent value am combined in each case in principle and then the appropriate amount of good old W6 against a firm minimum throw of 5+ gewuerfelt. That is the core of the new mechanics, on which develops everything else. The basis rules fit on two to three sides, and as soon as one made oneself familiar with them, the remainder is a children's game. Contrary to earlier versions we do strictly without special and exception rules, but refer us again and again to the underlying mechanisms. This proceeding will extend by the entire rules. If one read the first two to three sides of the magic rules, then white one, like Zauberei functions - all further serves only to increase the play depth and detail variety refers thereby however again and again to the fundamental rules. Likewise the matrix rules, the vehicle rules, the combat rules, etc.. A goal is it the fact that a player or a play leader the rules reads themselves once and afterwards only must look up the details. Helpless faces, endless looking up and above all play leaders, frustrated say "well well, then we make that now simply as follows..." are a thing of the past to become. In addition, that means it that the rules of the 4. Edition with those of the 3. Edition are not compatible. It will naturally give conversion rules, around characters of the 3. Edition on the 4. For edition to reequip, and the background informations into source books remain further relevant.

Furthermore, the newsletter mentions a "Shadowrun Weltbuch" (SR Worldbook) to be published in August that is supposed to contain a world overview, a history of SR offgame (including changes between editions, plotlines, etc.), "who is who" about the people behind SR (past and present) and some short stories.
I don't know if that'll be a German-only release but no such item is listed in the FanPro US 2005 catalogue...

mintcar View Member Profile	Apr 4 2005, 03:19 PM Post #2
Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505	Reading the english translation gave some Yoda vibes. Good stuff, thanks Mystic. Looks promising. Just hope this won´t mean to much White Wolf'ish a system. holds thums for dice pools

Dizzo Dizzman View Member Profile	Apr 4 2005, 04:27 PM Post #3
Target Group: Members Posts: 91 Joined: 23-January 05 From: Washington, DC Member No.: 7,007	Many thanks for the post!! :) I love how German has its own word for character generation (Charaktererschafftung). One other question: Guessing from the imperfect translation...does this mean that there is a base target number of 5?

mmu1

Apr 4 2005, 03:26 PM

Post #4

Running Target

Group: Members
Posts: 1,070
Joined: 7-February 04
From: NYC
Member No.: 6,058

QUOTE (Dizzo Dizzman)

Many thanks for the post!! :)

I love how German has its own word for character generation (Charaktererschafftung).

One other question: Guessing from the imperfect translation...does this mean that there is a base target number of 5?

Well... If English had an inexplicable shortage of spaces, and just stuck multiple words together with no rhyme or reason, we could have them too. ;)

Demosthenes

Apr 4 2005, 03:33 PM

Post #5

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 401
Joined: 7-June 02
From: Living with the straw sheep.
Member No.: 2,850

QUOTE

Prinzipiell wird jeweils ein Attributs- und
ein Fertigkeitswert miteinander kombiniert und dann die entsprechende
Anzahl guter alter W6 gegen einen festen Mindestwurf von 5+ gewürfelt

Slightly more precise translation "Essentially, an attribute and a skill value are combined, and the resulting number of d6's rolled against a fixed (minimum) TN of 5+"

I say "slightly", 'cause I have no time to check the validity of terms etc...

Interesting idea for mechanics - combining attributes+skills directly, rather than just relying on the old mechanics...

I'll reserve judgement on the TN though, especially since it's all still in playtesting and subject to change.

As to German and words...I think mmu1 said it best...
Though, really, you haven't lived until you've tried to translate a technical text from German. (NB that does not mean it's a good thing...)

Backgammon View Member Profile	Apr 4 2005, 03:42 PM Post #6
Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600	Skill + Attribute VS TN 5+ ok... So basically, more dice, higher TNs. No more defaulting, I assume, since everyone always has at least the base attribute.

Dizzo Dizzman View Member Profile	Apr 4 2005, 03:56 PM Post #7
Target Group: Members Posts: 91 Joined: 23-January 05 From: Washington, DC Member No.: 7,007	I, personally, hope there will be some opportunities to lower the TN below 5. Hitting 5s on a d6 can be a pain especially if you only have six or so dice to use.

phelious fogg View Member Profile	Apr 4 2005, 03:59 PM Post #8
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 555 Joined: 11-August 03 Member No.: 5,408	That makes attributes much more important. I dont really like this as skill should be more important than attributes.. Maybe attributes are getting a real downgrade so they dont affect skill that much. (A quickness 6 guy who has never fired a gun should not equal the average person who has average skill in a gun)

Synner View Member Profile	Apr 4 2005, 04:30 PM Post #9
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185	I don't think I'm off base in saying that if this is the solution adopted Atts and Skills would obviously have to be significantly adjusted to reflect the new mechanic and probability curves.

Zeel De Mort View Member Profile	Apr 4 2005, 06:02 PM Post #10
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 403 Joined: 27-August 02 From: Scotland Member No.: 3,175	Urgh! What's the logic behind this more-dice-higher-target-number thinking? SR already suffers from having to roll more dice than in most systems, at least when you get to a higher level - this will just make it ridiculous. I don't really favour higher target numbers or having to roll more dice. It's not too easy making out what the english translation is talking about - are these finalised rules, or just some concepts they're considering? I assume (and hope) the latter. Still, I have faith in the developers to do a good job! Just a bit concerned by how many dice my character will end up rolling if these changes are implemented!!

The Horror View Member Profile	Apr 4 2005, 04:55 PM Post #11
Target Group: Members Posts: 72 Joined: 28-March 05 Member No.: 7,251	Having a fixed target number for all skill checks is not nescessarily a bad thing at all. In fact, I rather like it. As long as that number can be altered a bit in combat (by range and whatnot). Not too sure about the stat + skill bit - isn't this similar to the new WoD? I'm not very familiar with nWoD, but it certainly sounds like what I know of it. Good stuff Mystic. Thanks for the news! The Horror

Penta View Member Profile	Apr 4 2005, 06:20 PM Post #12
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500	This worldbook...I assume it's only going to come out in German. Greaaat. So now, SR canon is being directed by stuff I can't even read. :mad:

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Apr 4 2005, 06:22 PM Post #13
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	If there's a fixed TN, then that means that inevitably modifiers will have to affect number of dice. This means that the lowest possible probability for success in a test is 1/3; anything less is impossible. Needless to say, this does not make me happy. ~J

mfb View Member Profile	Apr 4 2005, 06:24 PM Post #14
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	as long as 1s don't negate successes, i'll be happy.

apple View Member Profile	Apr 4 2005, 05:16 PM Post #15
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 875 Joined: 16-November 03 Member No.: 5,827	... :eek: Holy Lord ... That´s a change for sure! And an interesting one, too! SYL

Tanka

Apr 4 2005, 05:20 PM

Post #16

Chrome to the Core

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,152
Joined: 14-October 03
From: ::1
Member No.: 5,715

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

If there's a fixed TN, then that means that inevitably modifiers will have to affect number of dice. This means that the lowest possible probability for success in a test is 1/3; anything less is impossible.

Needless to say, this does not make me happy.

~J

Do explain that? I'm not quite following your line of thought.

Austere Emancipa...

Apr 4 2005, 06:30 PM

Post #17

Great Dragon

Group: Members
Posts: 5,889
Joined: 3-August 03
From: A CPI rank 1 country
Member No.: 5,222

QUOTE (Synner)

I don't think I'm off base in saying that if this is the solution adopted Atts and Skills would obviously have to be significantly adjusted to reflect the new mechanic and probability curves.

You certainly are not. Hopefully this adjustment will allow skills to remain relatively much more important than attributes in skill tests.

Demonseed Elite

Apr 4 2005, 06:31 PM

Post #18

Neophyte Runner

Group: Members
Posts: 2,078
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 67

QUOTE

Do explain that? I'm not quite following your line of thought.

His reasoning is that if modifiers change the number of dice you are rolling, he is figuring that you'll always have at least one die to roll, and one die has 2 in 6 (or 1/3) chance of rolling a 5 or 6 and passing a fixed TN of 5.

But that's making a lot of assumptions about the rules.

Zeel De Mort View Member Profile	Apr 4 2005, 05:30 PM Post #19
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 403 Joined: 27-August 02 From: Scotland Member No.: 3,175	Well obviously it's hard to tell from the translation, but it sounds to me like they might mean TNs can never go below 5, but can be higher. Which then makes some things which should be very easy actually quite unlikely to succeed regularly. Kinda the opposite of Kagetenshi's point. Either way, it doesn't sound agreeable. Still very dubious about all this...

Lucyfersam View Member Profile	Apr 4 2005, 06:41 PM Post #20
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 226 Joined: 29-July 03 Member No.: 5,137	I'm really not sure I like the sounds of that skill check system... The concept of a target 5 as the lowest it gets seems a little absurd. Before I get too worked up about it I think I'm going to have to wait to hear a bit more in English, as that translation is somewhat difficult to interpret. Given that this is out hopefully the Developers/playtesters will run some damage control and let us know what's up. As far as the comment about this meaning no defaults, I think that's unlikely. I would guess that if you don't have the skill in question you would be have a target modifier to make things more difficult rather than just rolling your attribute against an equal TN. Having the combined attribute +skill roll does fix the problem of a skill of 1 is frequently worse for you than defaulting, so I don't really mind that as long as its worked out well (which I have a fair amount of faith it will be). It's just this TN 5 thing that has me a bit worried...

DrJest View Member Profile	Apr 4 2005, 06:46 PM Post #21
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722	It's basically the new WOD system, just with d6's; although the option of increasing tn's is different.

Kagetenshi

Apr 4 2005, 05:39 PM

Post #22

Manus Celer Dei

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 17,013
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802

QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)

QUOTE

Do explain that? I'm not quite following your line of thought.

His reasoning is that if modifiers change the number of dice you are rolling, he is figuring that you'll always have at least one die to roll, and one die has 2 in 6 (or 1/3) chance of rolling a 5 or 6 and passing a fixed TN of 5.

It is, though I did add the "or be impossible" qualifier to allow for situations where die quantities can hit 0 (or for situations where more than one success is necessary).

QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)

But that's making a lot of assumptions about the rules.

You're right, but they aren't unfounded. Modifiers could potentially add or subtract from required number of successes, but that still makes things impossible quickly to low-skill/attribute characters.

You may have some other way to do this, of course, but damned if I can think of it. Either way it's another warning flag.

~J

MYST1C

Apr 4 2005, 05:42 PM

Post #23

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 858
Joined: 25-August 03
From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States
Member No.: 5,537

QUOTE (Zeel De Mort)

It's not too easy making out what the english translation is talking about - are these finalised rules, or just some concepts they're considering? I assume (and hope) the latter.

As Christian Lonsing says in the newsletter, there's much playtesting going on and some things are not finalised yet.
But it seem that Attribute + Skil vs 5 is indeed the new skill mechanic - unless another change comes around.

Nikoli View Member Profile	Apr 4 2005, 05:45 PM Post #24
Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033	I'd like to go on record again on this. All books, i don't care one fetid drek how many in jokes are put in, should be available in english at the very least. This BS concept of German only books for the german players but has plot effects accross the entire product line (how many metaplots involve SK in some form or fashion) is ludacris. I'm not saying books shouldn't be printed for non-english speaking players, I'm saying that all books should have an english translation. Also, the explanation i once heard for the German only books only set me off further (we americans wouldn't understand the subtleties of the German Shadows..., ie. We aren't smart enough to understand a fictional setting because the authors and editors felt it was necessary to put in so many in-jokes and obscure references as to render it unusable by a non german. ya know, I've never been to Seattle either, but that doesn't stop me from running the shadows there with my characters.)

Adam

Apr 4 2005, 06:55 PM

Post #25

Prime Runner

Group: Retired Admins
Posts: 3,929
Joined: 26-February 02
From: .ca
Member No.: 51

QUOTE (Penta)

This worldbook...I assume it's only going to come out in German.

Greaaat. So now, SR canon is being directed by stuff I can't even read.

:mad:

I only know the barebones about that project, but my general understanding is it's aimed to be a "bridge" product between the novel and game audience, to hopefully help readers of the German Shadowrun novels better understand the world.

It is not developing the game world or adding to canon, to the best of my knowledge -- it's like a Shadowrun encyclopedia, basically.

« Next Oldest · Shadowrun · Next Newest »