Today's German FanPro newsletter gives some details about SR4.
First, the German original for those who understand, second an English translation done with Google (a bit rough). Note the bold section in the English text - it talks about the new skill check system!
Full Version: SR4 - current FanPro D newsletter
| QUOTE |
| Okay, und was kommt da - jetzt so wirklich in echt - auf uns zu? Kurz gesagt, ein neues, vollständig überarbeitetes Regelwerk und eine leicht veränderte und zudem 5 Jahre in die Zukunft katapultierte Hintergrundwelt. Fangen wir mal mit dem Hintergrund an: Das typische Shadowrun-Flair, die Mischung aus Magie und Technologie in einer düsteren, von Megakonzernen regierten Welt, bleibt voll und ganz erhalten, aber vor allem die Technologie macht einen großen Schritt nach vorn, der schon lange notwendig war, um die 6. Welt wieder in Einklang mit der (zu erwartenden) Zukunft unserer eigenen Welt zu bringen. Die Welt ist nun kabellos ("wireless"), die zunehmende Miniaturisierung und Energieeffizienz hat dazu geführt, dass sich jede Art von Elektronik problemlos in einer Armbanduhr oder einer Brille unterbringen lässt, und die Speicherkapazität hat solche Ausmaße erreicht, dass ein einzelner Chip eine quasi unbegrenzte Datenmenge aufnehmen kann. Nicht dass es notwendig wäre, Daten noch abzuspeichern, weil sie nämlich über die allgegenwärtige Matrix jederzeit abgerufen werden können. Eine phantastische, wunderbare neue Welt, die sich uns da auftut - und die selbstredend eine um so düsterere Kehrseite aufweist, in der die Shadowrunner ihren heimlichen Geschäften nachgehen. Die allgegenwärtige "Augmented Reality" (überlagerte Realität) der Matrix soll aber auch dazu dienen, den Decker, der bislang ein eher tristes Dasein am Rande der rollenspielerischen Handlung fristete, zurück ins Spiel zu integrieren. Gemeinsam mit dem Rigger verschmilzt er zum Hacker, der sich auf die Manipulation bestimmter Aspekte der ihn umgebenden elektronischen Welt - Sicherheitssysteme, Drohnen, Fahrzeuge - spezialisieren kann, oder von allem ein bißchen beherrscht, und damit ein wertvoller, wenn nicht sogar überlebensnotwendiger Bestandteil einer jeden Gruppe wird. Abgesehen von dieser Zusammenfügung der Aufgabenbereiche hat sich an der Charaktererschafftung nicht viel geändert - an die Stelle des Prioritätensystems ist ein punktbasierendes System getreten, dass es den Spielern ermöglicht, sich ihren Shadowrunner ganz nach Wunsch maßzuschneidern. Archetypen wird es natürlich auch geben, aber wie schon bei den früheren Editionen dienen sie nur als Orientierungshilfe. Ein Klassen- oder Stufensystem ist nicht vorgesehen, stattdessen gibt es weiterhin die bewährten Karmapunkte, mit denen sich die Charaktere langsam aber stetig verbessern können. Eine starke Veränderung hat es bei den Fertigkeitsproben gegeben. Ich bitte um Verständnis, dass ich darüber im Moment noch nicht allzu viel verraten darf (zumal sich die Details dieser Regeln auch noch im Spieltest befinden), aber prinzipiell wird jeweils ein Attributs- und ein Fertigkeitswert miteinander kombiniert und dann die entsprechende Anzahl guter alter W6 gegen einen festen Mindestwurf von 5+ gewürfelt. Das ist der Kern der neuen Mechanik, auf dem alles andere aufbaut. Die Basisregeln passen auf zwei bis drei Seiten, und sobald man sich mit ihnen vertraut gemacht hat, ist der Rest ein Kinderspiel. Im Gegensatz zu früheren Versionen verzichten wir strikt auf Spezial- und Ausnahmeregeln, sondern beziehen uns immer wieder auf die zugrundeliegenden Mechaniken. Diese Vorgehensweise wird sich durch die gesamten Regeln erstrecken. Hat man die ersten zwei bis drei Seiten der Magieregeln gelesen, dann weiß man, wie Zauberei funktioniert - alles weitere dient nur dazu, die Spieltiefe und Detailvielfalt zu erhöhen, nimmt dabei aber immer wieder Bezug auf die grundlegenden Regeln. Ebenso die Matrixregeln, die Fahrzeugregeln, die Kampfregeln, usw. Ziel ist es, dass sich ein Spieler oder Spielleiter die Regeln einmal durchliest und danach nur noch die Details nachschlagen muss. Ratlose Gesichter, endloses Nachschlagen und vor allem Spielleiter, die frustriert sagen "na gut, dann machen wir das jetzt einfach folgendermaßen ..." sollen ein Ding der Vergangenheit werden. Das bedeutet aber auch, dass die Regeln der 4. Edition mit denen der 3. Edition nicht kompatibel sind. Es wird natürlich Konvertierungsregeln geben, um Charaktere der 3. Edition auf die 4. Edition umzurüsten, und die Hintergrundinformationen in den Quellenbücher bleiben weiterhin relevant. |
| QUOTE |
| Okay, and which comes there - now so really in genuine - to us? Briefly said, a new, completely revised set of rules and easily changed and besides 5 years into the future catapulted background world. We begin times with the background: The typical Shadowrun Flair, the mixture made of magic and technology in a dark, of megacompanies governed world, remain full and whole, but above all the technology makes a large step forward, which was necessary already for a long time, around the 6. To bring world back in agreement with (the one which can be expected) the future of our own world. The world is now slackly ("wireless"), the increasing miniaturization and energy efficiency to the fact led that each kind of electronics can be accommodated problem-free in a wrist-watch or eyeglasses, and the storage capacity reached such extents that an individual chip can take up a quasi unlimited data set. That it would not be necessary to still store data because they can be called up over the pervasive matrix at any time. A fantastic, marvelous new world, which opens itself there us - and those naturally a the darker drawback exhibits, in which the Shadowrunner follow to their secret business. The pervasive "Augmented Reality" (overlaid reality) in addition, of the matrix is to serve for it, the Decker, which fristete so far rather trichloroethylene width unit an existence at the edge of the rollenspielerischen action to integrate back in the play. Together with the Rigger it merges into the hacker, who can specialize in the manipulation of certain aspects it surrounding electronic world - safety systems, drones, vehicles -, or of everything a little controls, and so that more valuable, if a not even survive-necessary component of each group becomes. Apart from this joining the fields in the Charaktererschafftung much it did not change - to the place of the priority system a point-based system stepped that it makes possible for the players, itself its Shadowrunner completely according to desire measurement cutters. It will naturally also give ark types, but like already with the earlier editions they serve only than guideline assistance. A class or a stage system is not intended, instead there is further the proven Karmapunkte, with which the characters can slowly however constantly improve. A strong change gave it with the talent samples. I ask for understanding the fact that I may betray over it for the moment not yet all too much (particularly the details of these rules also still in played itself finds), but an attribute and a talent value am combined in each case in principle and then the appropriate amount of good old W6 against a firm minimum throw of 5+ gewuerfelt. That is the core of the new mechanics, on which develops everything else. The basis rules fit on two to three sides, and as soon as one made oneself familiar with them, the remainder is a children's game. Contrary to earlier versions we do strictly without special and exception rules, but refer us again and again to the underlying mechanisms. This proceeding will extend by the entire rules. If one read the first two to three sides of the magic rules, then white one, like Zauberei functions - all further serves only to increase the play depth and detail variety refers thereby however again and again to the fundamental rules. Likewise the matrix rules, the vehicle rules, the combat rules, etc.. A goal is it the fact that a player or a play leader the rules reads themselves once and afterwards only must look up the details. Helpless faces, endless looking up and above all play leaders, frustrated say "well well, then we make that now simply as follows..." are a thing of the past to become. In addition, that means it that the rules of the 4. Edition with those of the 3. Edition are not compatible. It will naturally give conversion rules, around characters of the 3. Edition on the 4. For edition to reequip, and the background informations into source books remain further relevant. |
Furthermore, the newsletter mentions a "Shadowrun Weltbuch" (SR Worldbook) to be published in August that is supposed to contain a world overview, a history of SR offgame (including changes between editions, plotlines, etc.), "who is who" about the people behind SR (past and present) and some short stories.
I don't know if that'll be a German-only release but no such item is listed in the FanPro US 2005 catalogue...
Reading the english translation gave some Yoda vibes.
Good stuff, thanks Mystic. Looks promising. Just hope this won´t mean to much White Wolf'ish a system. *holds thums for dice pools*
Good stuff, thanks Mystic. Looks promising. Just hope this won´t mean to much White Wolf'ish a system. *holds thums for dice pools*
Many thanks for the post!! 
I love how German has its own word for character generation (Charaktererschafftung).
One other question: Guessing from the imperfect translation...does this mean that there is a base target number of 5?
I love how German has its own word for character generation (Charaktererschafftung).
One other question: Guessing from the imperfect translation...does this mean that there is a base target number of 5?
| QUOTE (Dizzo Dizzman) |
| Many thanks for the post!! I love how German has its own word for character generation (Charaktererschafftung). One other question: Guessing from the imperfect translation...does this mean that there is a base target number of 5? |
Well... If English had an inexplicable shortage of spaces, and just stuck multiple words together with no rhyme or reason, we could have them too.
| QUOTE |
| Prinzipiell wird jeweils ein Attributs- und ein Fertigkeitswert miteinander kombiniert und dann die entsprechende Anzahl guter alter W6 gegen einen festen Mindestwurf von 5+ gewürfelt |
Slightly more precise translation "Essentially, an attribute and a skill value are combined, and the resulting number of d6's rolled against a fixed (minimum) TN of 5+"
I say "slightly", 'cause I have no time to check the validity of terms etc...
Interesting idea for mechanics - combining attributes+skills directly, rather than just relying on the old mechanics...
I'll reserve judgement on the TN though, especially since it's all still in playtesting and subject to change.
As to German and words...I think mmu1 said it best...
Though, really, you haven't lived until you've tried to translate a technical text from German. (NB that does not mean it's a good thing...)
Skill + Attribute VS TN 5+
ok...
So basically, more dice, higher TNs.
No more defaulting, I assume, since everyone always has at least the base attribute.
ok...
So basically, more dice, higher TNs.
No more defaulting, I assume, since everyone always has at least the base attribute.
I, personally, hope there will be some opportunities to lower the TN below 5. Hitting 5s on a d6 can be a pain especially if you only have six or so dice to use.
That makes attributes much more important. I dont really like this as skill should be more important than attributes.. Maybe attributes are getting a real downgrade so they dont affect skill that much. (A quickness 6 guy who has never fired a gun should not equal the average person who has average skill in a gun)
I don't think I'm off base in saying that if this is the solution adopted Atts and Skills would obviously have to be significantly adjusted to reflect the new mechanic and probability curves.
Urgh!
What's the logic behind this more-dice-higher-target-number thinking? SR already suffers from having to roll more dice than in most systems, at least when you get to a higher level - this will just make it ridiculous. I don't really favour higher target numbers or having to roll more dice.
It's not too easy making out what the english translation is talking about - are these finalised rules, or just some concepts they're considering? I assume (and hope) the latter.
Still, I have faith in the developers to do a good job! Just a bit concerned by how many dice my character will end up rolling if these changes are implemented!!
What's the logic behind this more-dice-higher-target-number thinking? SR already suffers from having to roll more dice than in most systems, at least when you get to a higher level - this will just make it ridiculous. I don't really favour higher target numbers or having to roll more dice.
It's not too easy making out what the english translation is talking about - are these finalised rules, or just some concepts they're considering? I assume (and hope) the latter.
Still, I have faith in the developers to do a good job! Just a bit concerned by how many dice my character will end up rolling if these changes are implemented!!
Having a fixed target number for all skill checks is not nescessarily a bad thing at all. In fact, I rather like it. As long as that number can be altered a bit in combat (by range and whatnot). Not too sure about the stat + skill bit - isn't this similar to the new WoD? I'm not very familiar with nWoD, but it certainly sounds like what I know of it.
Good stuff Mystic. Thanks for the news!
The Horror
This worldbook...I assume it's only going to come out in German.
Greaaat. So now, SR canon is being directed by stuff I can't even read.
Greaaat. So now, SR canon is being directed by stuff I can't even read.
If there's a fixed TN, then that means that inevitably modifiers will have to affect number of dice. This means that the lowest possible probability for success in a test is 1/3; anything less is impossible.
Needless to say, this does not make me happy.
~J
Needless to say, this does not make me happy.
~J
as long as 1s don't negate successes, i'll be happy.
...
Holy Lord ...
That´s a change for sure! And an interesting one, too!
SYL
Holy Lord ...
That´s a change for sure! And an interesting one, too!
SYL
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| If there's a fixed TN, then that means that inevitably modifiers will have to affect number of dice. This means that the lowest possible probability for success in a test is 1/3; anything less is impossible. Needless to say, this does not make me happy. ~J |
Do explain that? I'm not quite following your line of thought.
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| I don't think I'm off base in saying that if this is the solution adopted Atts and Skills would obviously have to be significantly adjusted to reflect the new mechanic and probability curves. |
You certainly are not. Hopefully this adjustment will allow skills to remain relatively much more important than attributes in skill tests.
| QUOTE |
| Do explain that? I'm not quite following your line of thought. |
His reasoning is that if modifiers change the number of dice you are rolling, he is figuring that you'll always have at least one die to roll, and one die has 2 in 6 (or 1/3) chance of rolling a 5 or 6 and passing a fixed TN of 5.
But that's making a lot of assumptions about the rules.
Well obviously it's hard to tell from the translation, but it sounds to me like they might mean TNs can never go below 5, but can be higher. Which then makes some things which should be very easy actually quite unlikely to succeed regularly. Kinda the opposite of Kagetenshi's point. Either way, it doesn't sound agreeable.
Still very dubious about all this...
Still very dubious about all this...
I'm really not sure I like the sounds of that skill check system... The concept of a target 5 as the lowest it gets seems a little absurd. Before I get too worked up about it I think I'm going to have to wait to hear a bit more in English, as that translation is somewhat difficult to interpret. Given that this is out hopefully the Developers/playtesters will run some damage control and let us know what's up.
As far as the comment about this meaning no defaults, I think that's unlikely. I would guess that if you don't have the skill in question you would be have a target modifier to make things more difficult rather than just rolling your attribute against an equal TN. Having the combined attribute +skill roll does fix the problem of a skill of 1 is frequently worse for you than defaulting, so I don't really mind that as long as its worked out well (which I have a fair amount of faith it will be). It's just this TN 5 thing that has me a bit worried...
As far as the comment about this meaning no defaults, I think that's unlikely. I would guess that if you don't have the skill in question you would be have a target modifier to make things more difficult rather than just rolling your attribute against an equal TN. Having the combined attribute +skill roll does fix the problem of a skill of 1 is frequently worse for you than defaulting, so I don't really mind that as long as its worked out well (which I have a fair amount of faith it will be). It's just this TN 5 thing that has me a bit worried...
It's basically the new WOD system, just with d6's; although the option of increasing tn's is different.
| QUOTE (Demonseed Elite) | ||
His reasoning is that if modifiers change the number of dice you are rolling, he is figuring that you'll always have at least one die to roll, and one die has 2 in 6 (or 1/3) chance of rolling a 5 or 6 and passing a fixed TN of 5. |
It is, though I did add the "or be impossible" qualifier to allow for situations where die quantities can hit 0 (or for situations where more than one success is necessary).
| QUOTE (Demonseed Elite) |
| But that's making a lot of assumptions about the rules. |
You're right, but they aren't unfounded. Modifiers could potentially add or subtract from required number of successes, but that still makes things impossible quickly to low-skill/attribute characters.
You may have some other way to do this, of course, but damned if I can think of it. Either way it's another warning flag.
~J
| QUOTE (Zeel De Mort) |
| It's not too easy making out what the english translation is talking about - are these finalised rules, or just some concepts they're considering? I assume (and hope) the latter. |
As Christian Lonsing says in the newsletter, there's much playtesting going on and some things are not finalised yet.
But it seem that Attribute + Skil vs 5 is indeed the new skill mechanic - unless another change comes around.
I'd like to go on record again on this.
All books, i don't care one fetid drek how many in jokes are put in, should be available in english at the very least. This BS concept of German only books for the german players but has plot effects accross the entire product line (how many metaplots involve SK in some form or fashion) is ludacris. I'm not saying books shouldn't be printed for non-english speaking players, I'm saying that all books should have an english translation.
Also, the explanation i once heard for the German only books only set me off further (we americans wouldn't understand the subtleties of the German Shadows..., ie. We aren't smart enough to understand a fictional setting because the authors and editors felt it was necessary to put in so many in-jokes and obscure references as to render it unusable by a non german. ya know, I've never been to Seattle either, but that doesn't stop me from running the shadows there with my characters.)
All books, i don't care one fetid drek how many in jokes are put in, should be available in english at the very least. This BS concept of German only books for the german players but has plot effects accross the entire product line (how many metaplots involve SK in some form or fashion) is ludacris. I'm not saying books shouldn't be printed for non-english speaking players, I'm saying that all books should have an english translation.
Also, the explanation i once heard for the German only books only set me off further (we americans wouldn't understand the subtleties of the German Shadows..., ie. We aren't smart enough to understand a fictional setting because the authors and editors felt it was necessary to put in so many in-jokes and obscure references as to render it unusable by a non german. ya know, I've never been to Seattle either, but that doesn't stop me from running the shadows there with my characters.)
| QUOTE (Penta) |
| This worldbook...I assume it's only going to come out in German. Greaaat. So now, SR canon is being directed by stuff I can't even read. |
I only know the barebones about that project, but my general understanding is it's aimed to be a "bridge" product between the novel and game audience, to hopefully help readers of the German Shadowrun novels better understand the world.
It is not developing the game world or adding to canon, to the best of my knowledge -- it's like a Shadowrun encyclopedia, basically.
| QUOTE (Penta) |
| Greaaat. So now, SR canon is being directed by stuff I can't even read. |
Not funny, Mystic.
Adam: I sincerely doubt that.
Adam: I sincerely doubt that.
| QUOTE (Penta) |
| Not funny, Mystic. |
What's wrong with learning another language?
I learned English, French and basic Spanish in school.
Because I don't suddenly want to have to do it for a game.
It's *extremely* difficult for me, anyhow (brain damage, y'see). Always has been, even when I was a kid. Considering I was delayed in talking, that is unsurprising.
It's *extremely* difficult for me, anyhow (brain damage, y'see). Always has been, even when I was a kid. Considering I was delayed in talking, that is unsurprising.
Adam, are you saying that the "worldbook" will only be in German, but don't worry 'cause it's only Encyclopedia Umbracurrica?! That makes me want it in English even more!
| QUOTE (Penta) |
| Adam: I sincerely doubt that. |
And I sincerely doubt that the German line developer lied to me about it.
He's setting you up, man! You go in for the yearly meeting, and boom, you come out as random organs in twelve different people!
~J
~J
This does, in fact, sound just like the new WoD system. Attribute + Skill versus (fixed TN that leaves a 1/3 chance of success). Lighting issues, wound penalties, quality of gear, etc, etc, all do nothing more than add or subtract dice.
I have yet to play the new WoD stuff, but it's fresh in my mind from reading over their rulebooks, etc, in preparation for an upcoming game. That said, I think I like it better than the old WoD stuff. I also, however, think I don't like it better than my Shadowrun.
I have yet to play the new WoD stuff, but it's fresh in my mind from reading over their rulebooks, etc, in preparation for an upcoming game. That said, I think I like it better than the old WoD stuff. I also, however, think I don't like it better than my Shadowrun.
Well, we don't have any hard info that the modifiers add or subtract dice. I think it's just as likely to add or subtract from the target modifier (which makes more sense to me anyway). A firm minimum of 5 makes more sense if their are a lot of dice to roll.
Speaking as someone with very little love for SR3's mechanics, I can't say this sounds promising. It does sound just like WoD and Exalted, and the mechanics those games use have no place within ten miles of anything associated with the word grit.
Mechanics are unimportant to me as long as they are balanced (to the setting of the game) and make sense (within the context of the game). If the new mechanic doesn't throw the balance the game to one character or another, I will be happy. "Grit", to me, is determined by the setting of the game.
| QUOTE (Adam @ Apr 4 2005, 07:50 PM) | ||
And I sincerely doubt that the German line developer lied to me about it. |
Christian will forgive me if I clarify in his stead, but the German-book being discussed would best be called the "Sixth World Almanac" and its not intended to do anything but recap and outline the history and players of the Shadowrun world up to and including 2064/5 - all of which have been made available to the English audience, though but not necessarily the German one (especially the older stuff). Additionally its meant to tweak some of the remaining inconsistencies in German canon and talk about some of the creators behind the current Sixth World setting. I'll get Labrat or someone from the German crew in here as soon as I can.
As to the WoD style rules... the "new" WoD system (Att+Skill vs. TN 7 with varying "Difficulties") was introduced in their unfortunately ill-fated Aeon Trinity series of games (Trinity, Aberrant and Adventure!). The first and later of those have a lot in common with SR and although they are admittedly geared towards a different style of play, they are (in my experience) faster, simpler and rather elegant resolution systems.
See, i take issue with the phrase German canon there should be no distinction between German players canon and everyone elses.
Unless the book is meant to correct the German canon to everyone elses canon.
Same here. Unless the book is specifically meant to smooth out the glitches in the "German Canon" so that from here on out the "German Canon" is seamlessly merged into one unified global SR canon, there will be strong resent for this book from the English-speaking audience.
Amazing how you guys manage to misinterpret the one note I put in Italics to mean the exact opposite.
Anyone who knows German canon knows that several incompatibilities between the way their setting was developed in DidS, C&D, WS&I and even DidS2 (which were all developed prior to closer cooperation between the two FanPros) and current official FanPro canon (the English language one). There's several reasons for this and I won't bother explaining them in detail but the fact is they exist... so German canon is being fixed to match English (and not the other way round!).
Did you know the German Kaltenstein had been around all this time, even though the English language Germany Sb killed him off, before we set the record straight in DotSW? Did you know that Austria had an Empire and an Emperor again according to German masterial? Did you know it fragmented too? Did you know that certain German corps have incompatible backgrounds with their English writeups?
Give us a break guys. We're fixing what's broken.
Anyone who knows German canon knows that several incompatibilities between the way their setting was developed in DidS, C&D, WS&I and even DidS2 (which were all developed prior to closer cooperation between the two FanPros) and current official FanPro canon (the English language one). There's several reasons for this and I won't bother explaining them in detail but the fact is they exist... so German canon is being fixed to match English (and not the other way round!).
Did you know the German Kaltenstein had been around all this time, even though the English language Germany Sb killed him off, before we set the record straight in DotSW? Did you know that Austria had an Empire and an Emperor again according to German masterial? Did you know it fragmented too? Did you know that certain German corps have incompatible backgrounds with their English writeups?
Give us a break guys. We're fixing what's broken.
there's nothing to "take issue" with. the germans wrote a lot of stuff for the german-language version of SR. some of that stuff doesn't jive with what was written for the english-language version. a lot of the english-language stuff was never ported over to the german-language books at all. unless you're getting mad at those damn, dirty germans for having the gall to develop a game world they were licensed to develop, i don't see what the problem is.
while i agree that it would cool as hell to have a similar almanac available for the english-speaking audience, it's not like we'll be missing out on anything. we've already got everything that will be in this almanac--it's just not packed into one book. on the other hand, it's also not missing all the details this almanac will miss.
while i agree that it would cool as hell to have a similar almanac available for the english-speaking audience, it's not like we'll be missing out on anything. we've already got everything that will be in this almanac--it's just not packed into one book. on the other hand, it's also not missing all the details this almanac will miss.
Ok, I thought it would be better to give you a more appropriate translation of all that information, so I sat down for a while, and, well... here you are:
| QUOTE (Christian Lonsing) |
| Okay, what are we - really now - looking at? In short, a new, completely revised ruleset, and a slightly changed setting that also been pushed 5 years into the future. Let's start with the background: the typical Shadowrun flair, the mix of magic and technology in a gloomy world ruled by megacorporations, will be fully retained, but especially technology will make a great leap forward that has been necessary for a long time in order to bring the 6th World back in line with the (expected) future of our own world. The world is now wireless, increasing miniaturization and energy efficency have made it possible to put any kind of electronics into a wrist watch or glasses without a problem, and memory capacity has reached such dimensions that a single chip can record a virtually infinite amount of data. But it's not like it would still be necessary to record data since it can be accessed at all times through the omnipresent Matrix. A phantastic, great new world which lies before us - and of course has an even more so dark downside in which shadowrunners conduct their secret business. The omnipresent "augmented reality" of the Matrix is also supposed to reintegrate the decker, which led a rather dreary existence at the borders of roleplaying action, into the game. Combined with the rigger, they merge into the hacker, which can specialize in the manipulation of certain aspects of the surrounding electronic world - security systems, drones, vehicles - or master a bit of all and therefore becoming a valuable, if not even irreplacable part of every group. Except for this merging of task fields character generation hasn't changed much - a point based system that allows players to customize their shadowrunner as much as they want has replaced the priority system. There will of course be archetypes, but like in earlier editions they will only serve as orientation. There are no plans for a class or level system, instead we still have the old karma points with which characters can improve slowly but steadily. A big change was made with skill checks. I hope you understand I can't reveal too much about this at the moment (especially since the details of this ruleset are still in playtesting), but basically an attribute and a skill value are combined and then the respective number of good old d6 rolled against a fixed TN of 5+. That's the core of the new mechanic on which everything else is built. The basic rules fit on two to three pages and as soon as you have familiarized with them the rest is easy. In contrast to earlier editions we strictly abstain from special rules and exceptions, and always refer to the basic mechanics. This strategy will be kept throughout the entire ruleset. If you've read the first two to three pages of the magic rules you know how sorcery works - everything else is only there to increase depth and add details while always referring to the basic rules. Equally the matrix rules, the vehicle rules, the combat rules, etc. The goal is that a player or game master reads the rules only once, and from then on only has to look up details. Clueless faces, endless looking up things, and especially game masters who frustrated say "ok, then we simply do it like this..." are supposed to become a thing of the past. But this also means that the rules of 4th edition aren't compatible with those of 3rd edition. Of course there will be conversion rules to update characters from 3rd to 4th edition, and background information in the sourcebooks will still be relevant. |
| QUOTE (mmu1) |
| Well... If English had an inexplicable shortage of spaces, and just stuck multiple words together with no rhyme or reason, we could have them too. |
Oh, there is a reason. Example?
| QUOTE |
| Except for this merging of task fields character generation hasn't changed much |
Spot the noun.
I actually prefer the "one thing, one noun" approach of German, and it's just as flexible as putting words after each other. You won't find "Charaktererschaffung" in a dictionary since it's a composite word.
| QUOTE (Christian Lonsing) |
| But it's not like it would still be necessary to record data since it can be accessed at all times through the omnipresent Matrix. |
So the data just exists "out there"? I realize that this is probably just an off-the-cuff comment, but if you don't record the data it stops existing. There isn't some mysterious "internet" out there that files are on today, and likewise it will be the same with the Matrix.
~J
I think he's rather referring to personal recordings of data. Just like you won't have to record MP3s on your hard disk anymore, since you can always play them "from the net".
RunnerPaul takes the words out of my mouth. And that had better be what actually happens.
It's why I went mad when DidS2 was, if I remember correcttly, deemed to be part of the English-language SR canon.
What that essentially says is that in order to get the full info that's in published SR, I have to learn another language.
No. Way. In. Hell.
Sorry, but while I may want to learn foreign languages, it's difficult for me, and no doubt for many others.
Why would I suffer like that for a game?
It's why I went mad when DidS2 was, if I remember correcttly, deemed to be part of the English-language SR canon.
What that essentially says is that in order to get the full info that's in published SR, I have to learn another language.
No. Way. In. Hell.
Sorry, but while I may want to learn foreign languages, it's difficult for me, and no doubt for many others.
Why would I suffer like that for a game?
| QUOTE |
| All books, i don't care one fetid drek how many in jokes are put in, should be available in english at the very least. This BS concept of German only books for the german players but has plot effects accross the entire product line (how many metaplots involve SK in some form or fashion) is ludacris. I'm not saying books shouldn't be printed for non-english speaking players, I'm saying that all books should have an english translation. |
Those books are published in FanPro Germany's publishing 'slots'. FanPro US has less slots than Germany. But feear not, we have a number of region books already, like 'Erwachte Länder' (Tir Taingire, Tir Na Nog and that crappy little German elf nation that you should be glad to know nothing about, because it blows more than words can say). Also, there's 'Nordamerika' (NAN1 + NAN2 + NAGNA). Those were never translated, but you aren't missing out, except in EL, and it's really no trouble you don't know much about Pomorya.
| QUOTE |
| See, i take issue with the phrase German canon there should be no distinction between German players canon and everyone elses. |
I certainly hope so. This was long overdue. *Thinks of DidS, Walzer and Chrom und Dioxin and shudders.*
| QUOTE (Synner @ Apr 4 2005, 03:53 PM) |
| Amazing how you guys manage to misinterpret the one note I put in Italics to mean the exact opposite. ...Give us a break guys. We're fixing what's broken. |
No hostility on my part towards you. However if several people misinterpret maybe the initial statement is ambiguous (at least in our reading). Eh, this is an imprecise form of communication.
Still I am glad you clarified for s that the German Canon is being brough in with the Other Canon. We can be one big happy SR world. (except for house rules and settings)
Hey, the German fans should have whatever books they need. Even if it won't sell well or isn't needed on the English market. I don't need to have a copy of every Shadowrun book in English to be the coolest kid on my block. 
Hey, speaking of obscure foreign Shadowrun books, did anyone ever run across a Shadowrun Hungry book (SR1)? A friend of mine taught English there and saw a copy. He emailed the developers (I think it was FASA at the time) and they said they had never heard of it before.
Hey, speaking of obscure foreign Shadowrun books, did anyone ever run across a Shadowrun Hungry book (SR1)? A friend of mine taught English there and saw a copy. He emailed the developers (I think it was FASA at the time) and they said they had never heard of it before.
Some additional details about "German canon"
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| Did you know the German Kaltenstein had been around all this time, even though the English language Germany Sb killed him off, before we set the record straight in DotSW? |
According to the German books, Kaltenstein is (or was), using the human alias "Alfred Nebelhorn", the owner of Hamburg's giant Alsterpalast hotel/casino complex and has (had) good ties to local politics and underworld (as of 2053).
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| Did you know that Austria had an Empire and an Emperor again according to German masterial? Did you know it fragmented too? |
In the German books the old danube monarchy (Austria, Hungary, Czechia, Slovakia, Slowenia) was re-founded in 2034 as a result of the Euro-Wars. It was ruled by Emperor Leopold I who claimed to be a descendant of the Habsburg family.
The empire was officially dissolved on May 15th 2041. Leo I disappeared.
(According to SoE it was just the Danube Union, Leo was elected not crowned and the union fell apart in 2039.)
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| Did you know that certain German corps have incompatible backgrounds with their English writeups? |
I had to notice this when I wrote an entry about ECC Eurotronics for the SR Wiki - in the German books ECC is a single corporation with Alcatel-Nokia being a subsidiary that was lost to Saeder-Krupp in a hostile takeover.
In the English books ECC is a consortium with A-N being a member corporation that merely fell under control of S-K but stayed part of ECC.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.