Full Version: SR4 - current FanPro D newsletter
There exist a sb about hungary. Iirc it was a fan-based development and never translated into english or german.
| QUOTE |
| Hey, speaking of obscure foreign Shadowrun books, did anyone ever run across a Shadowrun Hungry book (SR1)? A friend of mine taught English there and saw a copy. He emailed the developers (I think it was FASA at the time) and they said they had never heard of it before. |
It is to my best knowledge, a web-based book. The creator lurks here somewhere and even posted a link in some thread in the SoE subforum. Ask him nicely and maybe he'd give you a translated summary, though I guess it won't be 100% canonical either.
And it's Hungary. 'Hungry' is what you feel when you haven't eaten in days.
| QUOTE (hermit) |
| It is to my best knowledge, a web-based book. |
Nope, a real, physical SR Hungary book exists - there was one for sale on Ebay somewhen in the last months.
But it is in fact even more rare and obscure than SR France or SR Tokyo.
This news sounds promising to me - I don't have a lot of Shadowrun experience, but the new target number system sounds a heck of a lot faster-resolving.
Opps. Typo on my part. My appologies.
| QUOTE (M¥$T1C) | ||
Nope, a real, physical SR Hungary book exists - there was one for sale on Ebay somewhen in the last months. But it is in fact even more rare and obscure than SR France or SR Tokyo. |
Mystic is correct. There is indeed an unofficial hardcopy Hungary sourcebook available released by a local licensee.
I stand corrected.
Any Hungarian here who could scan in that book's artwork? It looks mighty cool.
Any Hungarian here who could scan in that book's artwork? It looks mighty cool.
Thing is, why are these books divergent from the main publishing company storyline?
Why was it considered a good idea to make every country have it's own little version?
One game, one canon. Though I am happy to hear about the German storyline being done away with and brought into the fold so to speak. Had there been an English translation of the German sourcebook, I might had had German shadows in my games ove rthe years, but because of that German language only book, nothing from Germany aside from the occaisional SK reference was ever in my games.
Why was it considered a good idea to make every country have it's own little version?
One game, one canon. Though I am happy to hear about the German storyline being done away with and brought into the fold so to speak. Had there been an English translation of the German sourcebook, I might had had German shadows in my games ove rthe years, but because of that German language only book, nothing from Germany aside from the occaisional SK reference was ever in my games.
I don't know about you guys but I would pay big money ($40) for an SR Almanac that layed out the history, all the important events, the non important ones etc. I think it is sort of a stick in the mud that FanPro is only making a german version.
Don't you guys think that a book of all tha is SR just might be popular in the states?
Don't you guys think that a book of all tha is SR just might be popular in the states?
That's the way FASA (back in the day) decided its licenses should work. And it did so for very practical reasons. The original Germany sb (which by the way is and has been available for years and years) was a translation and adaptation of the original DidS and was rather a big dissappointment in terms of sales (you can still find the first printing available in some stores). So much so that FASA deemed it a bad idea to translate all the other books (even for the purpose of content revision) which were getting increasingly specialized and specific. If you ever got to read C&D and WSI a considerable amount of the contents would go right over your head (since they are in fact tailored and play to a German audience rather than an American, French or even Portuguese one). The Germans on Dumpshock will also back me up when I say that they also present unique integration problems with canon.
However, that has been changing under Rob and Christian, and most material post-DidS2 is compatible and cross-referenced. DotSW dealt with the major frag up that Germany had 5 great dragons coexisting, SoE brought Austria and Switzerland into a very different light than they had been portrayed in the original German books as well as integrating the AGS in a wider European stage, Loose Alliances will visit many polticial groups including several introduced in German canon, and the list goes on.
And the same thing is happening on the German end, B:ADL (Target:AGS) includes lots of German-specific info that crosses with the SOTA64 hermetic schools as represented in German Thaumaturgic universities as well as information on other facts of everyday life specific to the German setting.
As far as translating everything it simply isn't feasible. There isn't a market for stuff that specific outside its homeland.
However, that has been changing under Rob and Christian, and most material post-DidS2 is compatible and cross-referenced. DotSW dealt with the major frag up that Germany had 5 great dragons coexisting, SoE brought Austria and Switzerland into a very different light than they had been portrayed in the original German books as well as integrating the AGS in a wider European stage, Loose Alliances will visit many polticial groups including several introduced in German canon, and the list goes on.
And the same thing is happening on the German end, B:ADL (Target:AGS) includes lots of German-specific info that crosses with the SOTA64 hermetic schools as represented in German Thaumaturgic universities as well as information on other facts of everyday life specific to the German setting.
As far as translating everything it simply isn't feasible. There isn't a market for stuff that specific outside its homeland.
So the final word is that this "Shadowrun Almanac" is not to be published in English??
...It would be nice to have the last fifteen years of history in one place.
...It would be nice to have the last fifteen years of history in one place.
Well, I don't know the exact details of the new system but by the sound of it - is it really much better?
Okay so in SR3 you roll a number of dice equal to your skill + any applicable pool dice + possibly a few bonus dice. The target number starts at a particular value, e.g. 4 to shoot at someone within close range. Then you apply modifiers to the target number for lighting, cover, movement, recoil, injuries... a whole bunch of things which you have to look up from various tables, probably in more than one book, at least until you know them off by heart.
Or, from how the proposed new rules appear to work: You roll a shitload of dice: Presumably attribute + skill + pool (I assume they're not doing away with pools, are they? please god no) + any other bonus dice, i.e. even more dice than you rolled in SR3. Right, so we assume the target number is always fixed at 5. Great, that's nice and easy. But wait! We now need to modify the number of dice we roll depending on such factors as lighting, cover, movement, recoil, injuries... Oh, hmm, really? Where do we find out about these? In tables, in books. Maybe they'll even be in one place, to start with. Finally we work out how many dice we should be rolling on this particular attack, grab a nice big bucket and flood the gaming table with them, start picking out all those 5s and 6s.
So.. what's the advantage of this new system? By the sound of it you end up rolling even more dice, and instead of modifying the target number you're now modifying the number of dice you roll instead. How is that much of an improvement?
I am, of course, just speculating, based on what one developer has said and then has been (rather well, as far as I can tell) translated for us into English. I actually still believe SR4 will be pretty good and that everyone will do a good job with it, but things like this really perturb me.
P.S. Yeah, I'd pay to have an almanac of the entire history of the 6th world and all the events since the awakening, as well as anything significant to the 6th world previous to that. Even if it was all just reprinted material gathered together from other books, old and new (and even ED!).
Okay so in SR3 you roll a number of dice equal to your skill + any applicable pool dice + possibly a few bonus dice. The target number starts at a particular value, e.g. 4 to shoot at someone within close range. Then you apply modifiers to the target number for lighting, cover, movement, recoil, injuries... a whole bunch of things which you have to look up from various tables, probably in more than one book, at least until you know them off by heart.
Or, from how the proposed new rules appear to work: You roll a shitload of dice: Presumably attribute + skill + pool (I assume they're not doing away with pools, are they? please god no) + any other bonus dice, i.e. even more dice than you rolled in SR3. Right, so we assume the target number is always fixed at 5. Great, that's nice and easy. But wait! We now need to modify the number of dice we roll depending on such factors as lighting, cover, movement, recoil, injuries... Oh, hmm, really? Where do we find out about these? In tables, in books. Maybe they'll even be in one place, to start with. Finally we work out how many dice we should be rolling on this particular attack, grab a nice big bucket and flood the gaming table with them, start picking out all those 5s and 6s.
So.. what's the advantage of this new system? By the sound of it you end up rolling even more dice, and instead of modifying the target number you're now modifying the number of dice you roll instead. How is that much of an improvement?
I am, of course, just speculating, based on what one developer has said and then has been (rather well, as far as I can tell) translated for us into English. I actually still believe SR4 will be pretty good and that everyone will do a good job with it, but things like this really perturb me.
P.S. Yeah, I'd pay to have an almanac of the entire history of the 6th world and all the events since the awakening, as well as anything significant to the 6th world previous to that. Even if it was all just reprinted material gathered together from other books, old and new (and even ED!).
Before everyone goes off and starts fighting a battle that doesn't exist -- there is a planned SR4 sourcebook that covers much of what the German-only worldbook will cover.
| QUOTE |
| ...much... |
?
| QUOTE (Dizzo Dizzman) |
| I, personally, hope there will be some opportunities to lower the TN below 5. Hitting 5s on a d6 can be a pain especially if you only have six or so dice to use. |
TN 5+ HOLY CRAP!!!!!!
I now know for sure I am NOT playing SR4 if that doesn't get changed. My dice luck is so shitty that I can count on one hand how many times I've rolled more than TN 4 even with 10+ dice. Nearly all of my characters survive/get by on TN reductions cause of my crap dice luck.
| QUOTE | ||
? |
The German-language book isn't finished. The English-language book in question isn't finished. Words like "much" and "planned" are therefore used, so in 16 months, someone can't jump up and down and go "but you promised!!!" -- although, goodness knows that someone will do that anyway.
| QUOTE (Catsnightmare) | ||
TN 5+ HOLY CRAP!!!!!! I now know for sure I am NOT playing SR4 if that doesn't get changed. My dice luck is so shitty that I can count on one hand how many times I've rolled more than TN 4 even with 10+ dice. Nearly all of my characters survive/get by on TN reductions cause of my crap dice luck. |
Or what about the other extreme...
I'm dragging my unconcious buddy out of some corp facility with my (favoured) right hand when who do I spot running away into the distance? Our severely wounded arch-nemesis, and he's wearing no armour. Wow, it's hero time!
I heft my sniper rifle up with my left hand and line up a shot with it. Unscoped, no smartlink induction pad on that hand, still dragging my buddy as fast as I can, I'm seriously wounded, there's minimal lighting, the bad guy is at extreme range (damn he can run fast!), is sprinting at full speed and is a good way into that forest over there (3/4) cover. Wow, will this ever be a hard shot!
Okay so say I'm pretty good with rifles (skill 6), and have combat pool to cover that, and quickness 6. Assuming I just add all those up I get 18 dice to shoot with - things are looking up! But then my newly certified SR4 GM starts slapping on the modifiers (i.e. reductions in how many dice I roll). Thumbing through the rulebook(s) he takes off a few here for injuries, a few more there for firing that big old rifle one-handed, and in my seriously injured left hand no less. Then there's that unconcious chummer, the lighting, the cover... you get the idea. All fair and square, the GM manages to whittle me down to the absolute most difficult shot possible... I only get 1d6 to roll!
Warming up the dice in my hands, blowing on it briefly I close my eyes and roll... dink, dink dink... it turns up a 5!! Victory!
Boy, I really feel like I pulled off the shot of a lifetime now, after beating those insane 3:1 odds.
| QUOTE (Zeel De Mort) |
| But wait! We now need to modify the number of dice we roll depending on such factors as lighting, cover, movement, recoil, injuries... Oh, hmm, really? Where do we find out about these? In tables, in books. Maybe they'll even be in one place, to start with. Finally we work out how many dice we should be rolling on this particular attack, grab a nice big bucket and flood the gaming table with them, start picking out all those 5s and 6s. |
That hasn't been said in any way, shape or form. Kagetenshi merely assumed that would happened because of the term "fixed TN."
For all we know, it'll be 5+/- depending on variables from combat, wounds, et cetera. Just like now.
Fixed TN could just mean that all tests start at 5 and modify from there. Not all tests are at 5 and you add/remove dice accordingly.
You ever seen anyone burn 6+ karma in re-rolls on single test TN 5 with 8 dice before. My fellow players have on a regular basis. I've been nicknamed "Karma Platinum" due to the unspeakably high rate I have to spend karma to keep characters alive.
In "that other game" I take 10 on every roll the GM will let me cause I rarely roll higher than that on a 20 sider. Even when playing a high bonuses fighter I'm one of the first ones put down in battles cause I can't hit shit.
In "that other game" I take 10 on every roll the GM will let me cause I rarely roll higher than that on a 20 sider. Even when playing a high bonuses fighter I'm one of the first ones put down in battles cause I can't hit shit.
| QUOTE (tanka) | ||
That hasn't been said in any way, shape or form. Kagetenshi merely assumed that would happened because of the term "fixed TN." For all we know, it'll be 5+/- depending on variables from combat, wounds, et cetera. Just like now. Fixed TN could just mean that all tests start at 5 and modify from there. Not all tests are at 5 and you add/remove dice accordingly. |
I really hope you're right man. As I said before I am just speculating, although the (translated) phrase "and then the respective number of good old d6 rolled against a fixed TN of 5+." leads me to believe that the TN of 5+ is fixed, as in not changed or modified.
Admittedly there is no mention of increasing or reducing the number of dice rolled, but if the TN is fixed, how else can you make things easier or harder?
Possibly, hopefully, you're right. Everything starts at 5, but is modified as it always was by various conditions. This could, in fact, be a good thing, if it applies to magic and so on as well. So it maybe moves up to 6 if the target of your manabolt has an above average willpower (4+), or higher if it's even better than that.
Even so, rolling more dice than ever can't really be an improvement, can it?
| QUOTE (tanka @ Apr 4 2005, 07:37 PM) |
| For all we know, it'll be 5+/- depending on variables from combat, wounds, et cetera. Just like now. |
If so, they're using a really, really stupid definition of "fixed".
Either that or it's translated weirdly. Can anyone who can read the original text state whether there are some nuances being lost?
~J
It does also say "5+." Which means it can go up. I'll assume that means it can also go down.
So if, say, a Shaman with Wil 5 and Sorcery 6 needs to conjure something with a TN 5 (since we don't know mechanics, this will do fine for now). Let's say he throws 3 of his Spell Pool in for good luck. He's rolling 14 dice against TN 5. That's not too shabby at all.
Nowhere does it even note removing or adding dice. It just says "fixed TN of 5+." So, yes, a contradictory statement in one way or another, but that does not immediately mean it will only ever be 5, nor does it automatically mean we add/remove dice depending on circumstances.
So if, say, a Shaman with Wil 5 and Sorcery 6 needs to conjure something with a TN 5 (since we don't know mechanics, this will do fine for now). Let's say he throws 3 of his Spell Pool in for good luck. He's rolling 14 dice against TN 5. That's not too shabby at all.
Nowhere does it even note removing or adding dice. It just says "fixed TN of 5+." So, yes, a contradictory statement in one way or another, but that does not immediately mean it will only ever be 5, nor does it automatically mean we add/remove dice depending on circumstances.
My personal guess is that that's an artifact of translation and that it's a 5 or greater that is successful rather than the TN being variable. Either way, there's absolutely no evidence that the TN drops.
And again, the only other apparent solution is a variable number of successes required to actually succeed, which makes things impossible to low-skill/low-attribute people (or, on the extreme, to everyone). If you've got another I'd like to hear it; maybe it'll be both ingenious and simple, but all other solutions I can think of get very complicated fast.
~J
And again, the only other apparent solution is a variable number of successes required to actually succeed, which makes things impossible to low-skill/low-attribute people (or, on the extreme, to everyone). If you've got another I'd like to hear it; maybe it'll be both ingenious and simple, but all other solutions I can think of get very complicated fast.
~J
Argh, I really hope the translation is wrong.
We need less, far, enormously less dices to roll, not the same amount, not more, but LESS dices.
We need less, far, enormously less dices to roll, not the same amount, not more, but LESS dices.
Personally, I don't find it really worthwhile to rip into something we barely know anything about.
What was given to us was so ambiguous, we can barely pull any information from it other than the apparent basics of the skill system.
I think we should stop ripping into the devs until we know exactly what they're doing and have played with it at least once. But that's just my opinion.
What was given to us was so ambiguous, we can barely pull any information from it other than the apparent basics of the skill system.
I think we should stop ripping into the devs until we know exactly what they're doing and have played with it at least once. But that's just my opinion.
Tell it to everyone else who's been posting on the SR4 boards the last few weeks! 90%+ of what people have been discussing in these threads is based on speculation and supposition, possibly grounded (like this seems to be) in some small amount of fact.
The fact that we could all be off the mark doesn't stop us debating it all at great length, it seems.
As a counterbalance, I thoroughly commend the developers for scrapping the Open Test. Well done those men and women!
The fact that we could all be off the mark doesn't stop us debating it all at great length, it seems.
As a counterbalance, I thoroughly commend the developers for scrapping the Open Test. Well done those men and women!
It occurs to me that the current system can be fairly well summarized as "(Rating)D6 vs TN 4" even though it works differently in a lot of cases. Yes, the TN isn't always 4. Yes, there's sometimes more or less dice to roll. But as a one-line summary, it's fitting. I think the same would apply here: we're reading a lot into a throw-away line.
I would consider that a very, very bad summary. TN 4 not only isn't fixed, it isn't even all that overwhelmingly common as a base TN.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Zeel De Mort) |
| [QUOTE=Catsnightmare,Apr 5 2005, 01:24 AM] Warming up the dice in my hands, blowing on it briefly I close my eyes and roll... dink, dink dink... it turns up a 5!! Victory! Boy, I really feel like I pulled off the shot of a lifetime now, after beating those insane 3:1 odds. |
Well, they changed the system of rolling, but they haven't said that the number of successes won't be of any importance. It could easily be just a marginal success.
As for the Almanac, its a great news! A great way of getting new masters and players (especially the firsts) without being pushed back by the amount of info already existing.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| My personal guess is that that's an artifact of translation and that it's a 5 or greater that is successful rather than the TN being variable. |
It's not an artifact of the translation. We're not talking Japanese here. It makes just as little sense in the translation as in the original, believe me. I don't attribute the author of that newsletter - Christian Lonsing - with such a keen mind (referring to his blabber in former newsletters), so I'm not that surprised.
The way I interpret it is that Lonsing is referring to the fact that any number greater than 5 is also a success. Of course this seems rather obvious, but like I said before... well, you know.
If there still are modifiers to the TN he only terribly misused the term "fest"/"fixed"... which, as you can guess, also wouldn't surprise me.
| QUOTE (Zeel De Mort) |
| Even so, rolling more dice than ever can't really be an improvement, can it? |
Who ever said rolling more dice? Most probably it's "goodbye combat pool etc.". Further, the scope of attributes and skills might be reduced in order to cut down dice pool size. (Please note I'm only speculating here. As you are.)
| QUOTE (Toa) | ||
It's not an artifact of the translation. We're not talking Japanese here. It makes just as little sense in the translation as in the original, believe me. I don't attribute the author of that newsletter - Christian Lonsing - with such a keen mind (referring to his blabber in former newsletters), so I'm not that surprised. The way I interpret it is that Lonsing is referring to the fact that any number greater than 5 is also a success. Of course this seems rather obvious, but like I said before... well, you know. |
Fair enough. That was my take on it as well, but I (not knowing) was leaving the option for the "5+" being the way it was usually referred to in the German books. I guess it isn't.
Thanks again for the translation and clarification.
~J
| QUOTE (Penta) |
| Not funny, Mystic. |
Sorry, but you're wrong. It was.
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) | ||
Sorry, but you're wrong. It was. |
Only to language-snobs like you.
So, in an effort to further distract me from the completion of my term paper, I translated the rest of the newsletter, if anyone's interested. Well, except for his ludicrous use of Japanese ("You!" and "Take care!"). Here you go:
| QUOTE (Christian Lonsing) |
| Omae-tachi! Tibet is supposed to be nice at this time of the year, and the back side of the moon also can offer some breathtaking views (I recommend the Mare Ingenii). Same goes for far solar systems and parallel universes. Everyone who hasn't spend the last few weeks at one of these places already should know that the 4th edition of Shadowrun is due to be released within this year!!! What are we looking at? Well, first the "System Failure" (German "Vom Netz" [Off the Net]), a campaign book with an included background chapter that'll initiate the time of upheaval which will throw us into the year 2070. Obviously the Matrix will experience an extensive change, but of course we won't reveal what exactly is going to happen in order to not ruin the suspense for anybody. The campaign will be released in July/August. Then of course the new core book, which in its American original version will be released at GenCon (August) and only two months later, just in time for the Spielmesse in Essen, in German - so the German fans won't be put on the rack for too long! [...] So much for the information about 4th edition. I can imagine there are still hundreds of questions and I solemnly promise to answer them all in the upcoming newsletters (except for the ever recurring question about the meaning of life, which everyone can only answer for himself). Two other titles in progress are the "Loose Alliances" (German "Feind meines Feindes" [Enemy of my Enemy]) which is currently being translated, and the "Shadowrun Worldbook" that's planned for August. Here the reader gets a comprehensive overlook of the 6th World and its events, and may also take a look behind the scenes. How did the line develop in a mundane sense [yes, it sounds stupid even in German - "irdisch" means "terrestrial" or "mundane", more literally "earthly"]? What changed from edition to edition and what big plots took place? There'll be a list of all Shadowrun products ever released, including a short description as well as an extensive "Who is who?" with the Shadowrun producers of the past and present. The whole thing will be loosened up by a handful of short stories by known Shadowrun authors, and so it should also be obvious this isn't a stale encyclopedia but an interesting fact book from beginning to end. Sound like a outright interesting year 2005 for Shadowrun, doesn't it? Okiwotsukete kudasai, Christian |
| QUOTE (Penta @ Apr 4 2005, 09:13 PM) | ||||
Only to language-snobs like you. |
Humor is subjective, and I wouldn't be so judgmental by calling people "language snobs" if they know more than one language. If you know English, then you already know a smattering of other languages (just as English has "infected" other languages... In Korean, television is transliterated to "Teh Reh Bee Jeon", for example).
you know, penta, i bet if you try harder, you could act even more unreasonable, illogical, and cackish. i believe in you.
i think everybody's making a pretty big mountain out of a pretty vaguely-written molehill.
i think everybody's making a pretty big mountain out of a pretty vaguely-written molehill.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| you know, penta, i bet if you try harder, you could act even more unreasonable, illogical, and cackish. i believe in you. i think everybody's making a pretty big mountain out of a pretty vaguely-written molehill. |
I cannot agree with this statement more.
you may now make your mountains out of much more clearly-defined molehills. this results in greater mountain stability.
Ok, I have a little bit more time to speculate on the new mechanic now.
The fixed TN of 5 should be good. I really don't think there will be any modifiers to TN at all.
You pick up stat + skill dice and roll. The passive player does the same. You both add up successes. If you get more successes than the opponent, you beat him at the task. If they keep opponents as just threat ratings, then you'll need to get a number of successes equal to their threat rating to beat them at an opposed skill check. More net successes means better results.
Combat wise the core system can remain like that as well. Roll a bunch of dice, count successes, and stage up damage depending on how many successes you beat the opponent by. Again, opponents can easily be just a threat rating value, eleminating the need for opposed rolls. Overall, the rolling would go faster.
The interesting thing to see will be whether they will keep the Combat pools and its equivalents for magic and matrix. If they do keep it, then I suspect that the pool will be composed of ALL the dice you get to roll for the combat. For example, you may get a combat pool of 2 stats + 2 skills + cyberware (or maybe just stat + skill + cyberware). At the beginning of each action set you choose how many dice will be allocated to hitting people, and how many dice will be allocated to defending against being damaged/hit. The limit on the dice spent on each action could be equal to the rating of your stat + skill you would normally use for the task.
Modifiers will undoubtely come in the form of + or - a number of dice. Hopefully they won't go the nWoD way and give a variable # of bonus dice accoding to the type of weapon being used. Doing that makes sense in a way, since having more dice to roll also means more damage can be inflicted. However, it means that you are always better off using the weapon that will give you the most bonus dice, since it not only does more damage but gives you a better chance of hitting as well.
To eliminate this problem I really would like to see variable staging brought back in. That way you could give more dice to a weapon to simulate it being easier to hit with, but then increase its staging rating to simulate it being harder to damage someone with. Of course, I really do think that only the attacker should have to use variable staging, and that the defender should keep the staging constant at 2.
There is a lot they can do with this basic dice rolling mechanic. Personally, I think its going to rock!
The Horror
edit: Ok, so no more Combat/Hacking/Control/Magic pools. Oh well.
From the FAQ
Q. Will SR4 still have Dice Pools?
A. Yes, but not in the same sense as SR3. In SR4, any time you make a test, the dice you roll are considered your dice pool. Dice pools consist of skill + attribute, +/- any modifiers.
The Dice Pools from SR3–Combat, Hacking, Control, Magic–no longer exist in SR4.
The fixed TN of 5 should be good. I really don't think there will be any modifiers to TN at all.
You pick up stat + skill dice and roll. The passive player does the same. You both add up successes. If you get more successes than the opponent, you beat him at the task. If they keep opponents as just threat ratings, then you'll need to get a number of successes equal to their threat rating to beat them at an opposed skill check. More net successes means better results.
Combat wise the core system can remain like that as well. Roll a bunch of dice, count successes, and stage up damage depending on how many successes you beat the opponent by. Again, opponents can easily be just a threat rating value, eleminating the need for opposed rolls. Overall, the rolling would go faster.
The interesting thing to see will be whether they will keep the Combat pools and its equivalents for magic and matrix. If they do keep it, then I suspect that the pool will be composed of ALL the dice you get to roll for the combat. For example, you may get a combat pool of 2 stats + 2 skills + cyberware (or maybe just stat + skill + cyberware). At the beginning of each action set you choose how many dice will be allocated to hitting people, and how many dice will be allocated to defending against being damaged/hit. The limit on the dice spent on each action could be equal to the rating of your stat + skill you would normally use for the task.
Modifiers will undoubtely come in the form of + or - a number of dice. Hopefully they won't go the nWoD way and give a variable # of bonus dice accoding to the type of weapon being used. Doing that makes sense in a way, since having more dice to roll also means more damage can be inflicted. However, it means that you are always better off using the weapon that will give you the most bonus dice, since it not only does more damage but gives you a better chance of hitting as well.
To eliminate this problem I really would like to see variable staging brought back in. That way you could give more dice to a weapon to simulate it being easier to hit with, but then increase its staging rating to simulate it being harder to damage someone with. Of course, I really do think that only the attacker should have to use variable staging, and that the defender should keep the staging constant at 2.
There is a lot they can do with this basic dice rolling mechanic. Personally, I think its going to rock!
The Horror
edit: Ok, so no more Combat/Hacking/Control/Magic pools. Oh well.
From the FAQ
Q. Will SR4 still have Dice Pools?
A. Yes, but not in the same sense as SR3. In SR4, any time you make a test, the dice you roll are considered your dice pool. Dice pools consist of skill + attribute, +/- any modifiers.
The Dice Pools from SR3–Combat, Hacking, Control, Magic–no longer exist in SR4.
| QUOTE (Catsnightmare) |
| You ever seen anyone burn 6+ karma in re-rolls on single test TN 5 with 8 dice before. My fellow players have on a regular basis. I've been nicknamed "Karma Platinum" due to the unspeakably high rate I have to spend karma to keep characters alive. In "that other game" I take 10 on every roll the GM will let me cause I rarely roll higher than that on a 20 sider. Even when playing a high bonuses fighter I'm one of the first ones put down in battles cause I can't hit shit. |
You should speak to your dice more. Be nice to them and for god sake put them ass end up on the table when not in use. I have a friend that can only roll well when he bounces the dice off somthing. Rolls normally get pish all rolls against a book kills everything.
Weird no.
Holà!
The so-called "Shadowrun Worldbook" finally has a Name.
"Shadowrun - Die 6. Welt"/"Shadowrun - the sixth world"
planned release: September/mid of August if possible
@Synner: You've got mail!!!
The so-called "Shadowrun Worldbook" finally has a Name.
"Shadowrun - Die 6. Welt"/"Shadowrun - the sixth world"
planned release: September/mid of August if possible
@Synner: You've got mail!!!
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| If there's a fixed TN, then that means that inevitably modifiers will have to affect number of dice. This means that the lowest possible probability for success in a test is 1/3; anything less is impossible. Needless to say, this does not make me happy. ~J |
One could have it so that, you need to score 5, "5"s
| QUOTE (NightHaunter) | ||
You should speak to your dice more. Be nice to them and for god sake put them ass end up on the table when not in use. I have a friend that can only roll well when he bounces the dice off somthing. Rolls normally get pish all rolls against a book kills everything. Weird no. |
It's not that weird. He probably doesn't know how to properly roll dice and just drops them flat if he isn't bouncing them off something. This weights dice results considerably, and is why casino games that involve dice require you to bounce dice off of something. Beyond that, it's just luck and more likely your perception.
| QUOTE (Cynic project) |
| One could have it so that, you need to score 5, "5"s |
Covered that above and in other threads. Still doesn't work for me, from the looks of it.
~J
While we're at it, there's a new Critters book announced on te German SR site ... click here for cover art. Here's the small text covering it so far:
| QUOTE |
| Critter der 6. Welt Nicht nur die Menschen, auch die Flora und Fauna um sie herum ist erwacht, und dabei entstanden einige gefährliche Arten, denen die Runner schon sehr bald gegenüberstehen können. Enthält eine umfangreiche, detailierte Crittersammlung und besondere Regeln zu deren Darstellung und Einbindung in eigene Kampagnen. |
Translation: Critters of the 6th world
Not only humanity, other species have awakened too, and some considerably dangerous new species have emerged, whom runners may soon meet face to face! Contains a comprehensive, detailed collection of critters and special rules for playing them and integrating them into a campaign.
hm. looks like Running Wild.
Sounds like the oft mentioned Running Wild sourcebook.
Ah, okay. Just wondering. Haven't seen much of Running Wild as of yet.
| QUOTE |
| So, in an effort to further distract me from the completion of my term paper, I translated the rest of the newsletter, if anyone's interested. Well, except for his ludicrous use of Japanese ("You!" and "Take care!"). Here you go: |
Ludicrous is a good way of saying it. I'd rather say strange and insulting but that's just me. Would be a lot better if he said anata instead of omae (use omae with great care). I'm really glad there are people with good German that can tanslate it well, running it through a translator while nice just doesn't show the full extent. Thanks to those who translate.
Anyways, I believe some others have commented (by Patrick Goodman and others I think) that it's fixed 5+ (meaning 5 or 6 or 33% chance for each die). Personally I'll wait and see about the rules set when it's all done. My biggest concern is the feel of the rules system and the world in general and how all of these changes are going to play out with that.
I'm an old school GM who started playing Shadowrun 13 years ago. Shadowrun to me has always been a dark and gritty world with the corps extraterritorial and everywhere and the shadows full of dark and black things. High tech and high diversity (metahumans, magicians, equipment, etc) were also major parts of this. The rules system (2ed in this case) for the most part supported this and encouraged the gritty and diversity (we had all sorts of mages, types of street muscle, etc.) One of the greatest things (and what drew me into the game in general) was the comments from the archtypes at the time (the mercs comment on how we're all buisnessmen, just you work with a deck and I work with an uzi, is still a favorite). This is what I'm concerned about and what the bar is set at.
When SR3 came out, I immediately grabbed it and went to work. Lots of great improvements in the system that made it feel grittier, but my group and I noticed some things. First, my group pointed out that I wasn't having as much fun (part of it was the rule changes made me always looking to make sure I had it right and another part was the dryness on how things were written) that was spreading to my group. Another thing we noticed (especially me the GM) was the lack of diversity in the choice of equipment (despite having all of these options) and in character choices occupations (they used only shamans, no more hougans or hermetics despite the extra options or basic sammies instead of the other things offered). Riggers dropped their drones (due to complexity) or went to a very limited selection and mostly went to vehicles only (and sadly mostly cars, no more bikes or even vans).
A lot of our problems were fluff related like the lack of colorful commentaries on the equipment that grabbed the players imaginations or the more bland descriptions of archtypes didn't spark their interest in playing that type unlike the old ones. Sometimes it was the rules that got in the way (for some reason the person in my group who just loved mages couldn't stand the new system) or became too complex (rigger anyone?).
Now don't get me wrong, some of the stuff was excellent (corporate download and the rules for the corps in the back really brought focus to what was going on) and some of the rules really helped (the explenations in the matrix book focused that and the new 3ed rules gave us our first decker in ages). Also FanPro has done a good job with fluff (SoNA and SoE are excellent) and the story line for the most part. Naturally I'll be disappointed with SoA just because I know Japan very well and could probably add a lot more color and depth to the country (I was going to submit but found out too late about the plan for Asia
) but I expect the other areas will grab my attention and I know it'll be well done anyways.So my concerns with SR4 are this:
-Will the new system hinder the enjoyment of the game or make the game feel less gritty and more action packed or some other feel? For me this is the system supporting diversity as much or greater than SR3. It also has to have a feel of a chance against all odds and a deadliness to it.
- Will the fluff of the world change in a way that it doesn't feel like the shadows? The blurring of deckers and riggers really does have to be carefully done as well as the whole wireless matrix. The sudden jump is also going to cause a change in feel and combined with the wireless matrix stuff, it sounds like the feel might become even more tech oriented which could tip the feel away from what Shadowrun has always been.
Now this isn't me yelling about the changeover being the end of the world and that FanPro will burn in Hell for this. This is just me trying to express some very legit concerns. FanPro has a good track record with me on what they've put out and I know it'll be well designed and thought out. However FanPro is doing two radical changes at one time by jumping the world forward and changing the system. That's a tough balancing act for any company. When PEG came out with Savage Worlds, it was a great system, but when I tried to apply it to Deadlands I found that it killed the feel of the game completely. The leap forward in Battletech also killed my interest in the Dark Ages setting as well as buying new stuff after the FedCom Civil War.
I've already lost three of my favorite systems to changes (LUG shutting down, Btech, and Deadlands), and I would truly hate to lose Shadowrun too. I'd hate to be looking forward to only buying Heavy Gear books.
| QUOTE |
| Naturally I'll be disappointed with SoA just because I know Japan very well and could probably add a lot more color and depth to the country |
Well, at least it'll be a QUALITY tidbit, unlike a certain 344 page book that covers the shadows of every last town of 10.000, and often in a ridiculous manner. v_v
Granted, as the surgeon in Batman 1 says, "just look what I am forced to work with", but anyway, it just .... sucks ... for the most part.
Besides, it's never too late to submit a proposal for a Target: Japan book or something like that; with 4th Ed.'s 5-year-gap, there's really room to revisit countries already brushed over in the Shadows of series. I for one would love that, and should you do that, wish you all the best.
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