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MYST1C

Apr 4 2005, 06:56 PM

Post #26

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Penta)

Greaaat. So now, SR canon is being directed by stuff I can't even read.

Time to hit german.about.com and start studying...
:D

Penta View Member Profile	Apr 4 2005, 05:49 PM Post #27
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500	Not funny, Mystic. Adam: I sincerely doubt that.

MYST1C

Apr 4 2005, 05:53 PM

Post #28

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Penta)

Not funny, Mystic.

What's wrong with learning another language?
I learned English, French and basic Spanish in school.

Penta View Member Profile	Apr 4 2005, 07:06 PM Post #29
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500	Because I don't suddenly want to have to do it for a game. It's extremely difficult for me, anyhow (brain damage, y'see). Always has been, even when I was a kid. Considering I was delayed in talking, that is unsurprising.

Pthgar View Member Profile	Apr 4 2005, 06:05 PM Post #30
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 27-May 03 From: Detroit Member No.: 4,642	Adam, are you saying that the "worldbook" will only be in German, but don't worry 'cause it's only Encyclopedia Umbracurrica?! That makes me want it in English even more!

Adam

Apr 4 2005, 07:50 PM

Post #31

Prime Runner

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QUOTE (Penta)

Adam: I sincerely doubt that.

And I sincerely doubt that the German line developer lied to me about it. :-)

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Apr 4 2005, 07:50 PM Post #32
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	He's setting you up, man! You go in for the yearly meeting, and boom, you come out as random organs in twelve different people! ~J

Critias View Member Profile	Apr 4 2005, 07:07 PM Post #33
Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714	This does, in fact, sound just like the new WoD system. Attribute + Skill versus (fixed TN that leaves a 1/3 chance of success). Lighting issues, wound penalties, quality of gear, etc, etc, all do nothing more than add or subtract dice. I have yet to play the new WoD stuff, but it's fresh in my mind from reading over their rulebooks, etc, in preparation for an upcoming game. That said, I think I like it better than the old WoD stuff. I also, however, think I don't like it better than my Shadowrun.

Pthgar View Member Profile	Apr 4 2005, 08:32 PM Post #34
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 27-May 03 From: Detroit Member No.: 4,642	Well, we don't have any hard info that the modifiers add or subtract dice. I think it's just as likely to add or subtract from the target modifier (which makes more sense to me anyway). A firm minimum of 5 makes more sense if their are a lot of dice to roll.

Arethusa View Member Profile	Apr 4 2005, 08:33 PM Post #35
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775	Speaking as someone with very little love for SR3's mechanics, I can't say this sounds promising. It does sound just like WoD and Exalted, and the mechanics those games use have no place within ten miles of anything associated with the word grit.

Pthgar View Member Profile	Apr 4 2005, 08:42 PM Post #36
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 27-May 03 From: Detroit Member No.: 4,642	Mechanics are unimportant to me as long as they are balanced (to the setting of the game) and make sense (within the context of the game). If the new mechanic doesn't throw the balance the game to one character or another, I will be happy. "Grit", to me, is determined by the setting of the game.

Synner

Apr 4 2005, 08:47 PM

Post #37

Runner

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QUOTE (Adam @ Apr 4 2005, 07:50 PM)

QUOTE (Penta)

Adam: I sincerely doubt that.

And I sincerely doubt that the German line developer lied to me about it. :-)

Christian will forgive me if I clarify in his stead, but the German-book being discussed would best be called the "Sixth World Almanac" and its not intended to do anything but recap and outline the history and players of the Shadowrun world up to and including 2064/5 - all of which have been made available to the English audience, though but not necessarily the German one (especially the older stuff). Additionally its meant to tweak some of the remaining inconsistencies in German canon and talk about some of the creators behind the current Sixth World setting. I'll get Labrat or someone from the German crew in here as soon as I can.

As to the WoD style rules... the "new" WoD system (Att+Skill vs. TN 7 with varying "Difficulties") was introduced in their unfortunately ill-fated Aeon Trinity series of games (Trinity, Aberrant and Adventure!). The first and later of those have a lot in common with SR and although they are admittedly geared towards a different style of play, they are (in my experience) faster, simpler and rather elegant resolution systems.

Nikoli View Member Profile	Apr 4 2005, 07:41 PM Post #38
Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033	See, i take issue with the phrase German canon there should be no distinction between German players canon and everyone elses.

Pthgar View Member Profile	Apr 4 2005, 08:52 PM Post #39
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 27-May 03 From: Detroit Member No.: 4,642	Unless the book is meant to correct the German canon to everyone elses canon.

RunnerPaul View Member Profile	Apr 4 2005, 08:53 PM Post #40
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364	Same here. Unless the book is specifically meant to smooth out the glitches in the "German Canon" so that from here on out the "German Canon" is seamlessly merged into one unified global SR canon, there will be strong resent for this book from the English-speaking audience.

Synner View Member Profile	Apr 4 2005, 07:53 PM Post #41
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185	Amazing how you guys manage to misinterpret the one note I put in Italics to mean the exact opposite. Anyone who knows German canon knows that several incompatibilities between the way their setting was developed in DidS, C&D, WS&I and even DidS2 (which were all developed prior to closer cooperation between the two FanPros) and current official FanPro canon (the English language one). There's several reasons for this and I won't bother explaining them in detail but the fact is they exist... so German canon is being fixed to match English (and not the other way round!). Did you know the German Kaltenstein had been around all this time, even though the English language Germany Sb killed him off, before we set the record straight in DotSW? Did you know that Austria had an Empire and an Emperor again according to German masterial? Did you know it fragmented too? Did you know that certain German corps have incompatible backgrounds with their English writeups? Give us a break guys. We're fixing what's broken.

mfb View Member Profile	Apr 4 2005, 09:04 PM Post #42
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	there's nothing to "take issue" with. the germans wrote a lot of stuff for the german-language version of SR. some of that stuff doesn't jive with what was written for the english-language version. a lot of the english-language stuff was never ported over to the german-language books at all. unless you're getting mad at those damn, dirty germans for having the gall to develop a game world they were licensed to develop, i don't see what the problem is. while i agree that it would cool as hell to have a similar almanac available for the english-speaking audience, it's not like we'll be missing out on anything. we've already got everything that will be in this almanac--it's just not packed into one book. on the other hand, it's also not missing all the details this almanac will miss.

Toa

Apr 4 2005, 07:59 PM

Post #43

Moving Target

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Ok, I thought it would be better to give you a more appropriate translation of all that information, so I sat down for a while, and, well... here you are:

QUOTE (Christian Lonsing)

Okay, what are we - really now - looking at? In short, a new, completely revised ruleset, and a slightly changed setting that also been pushed 5 years into the future. Let's start with the background: the typical Shadowrun flair, the mix of magic and technology in a gloomy world ruled by megacorporations, will be fully retained, but especially technology will make a great leap forward that has been necessary for a long time in order to bring the 6th World back in line with the (expected) future of our own world. The world is now wireless, increasing miniaturization and energy efficency have made it possible to put any kind of electronics into a wrist watch or glasses without a problem, and memory capacity has reached such dimensions that a single chip can record a virtually infinite amount of data. But it's not like it would still be necessary to record data since it can be accessed at all times through the omnipresent Matrix. A phantastic, great new world which lies before us - and of course has an even more so dark downside in which shadowrunners conduct their secret business.

The omnipresent "augmented reality" of the Matrix is also supposed to reintegrate the decker, which led a rather dreary existence at the borders of roleplaying action, into the game. Combined with the rigger, they merge into the hacker, which can specialize in the manipulation of certain aspects of the surrounding electronic world - security systems, drones, vehicles - or master a bit of all and therefore becoming a valuable, if not even irreplacable part of every group.

Except for this merging of task fields character generation hasn't changed much - a point based system that allows players to customize their shadowrunner as much as they want has replaced the priority system. There will of course be archetypes, but like in earlier editions they will only serve as orientation. There are no plans for a class or level system, instead we still have the old karma points with which characters can improve slowly but steadily.

A big change was made with skill checks. I hope you understand I can't reveal too much about this at the moment (especially since the details of this ruleset are still in playtesting), but basically an attribute and a skill value are combined and then the respective number of good old d6 rolled against a fixed TN of 5+. That's the core of the new mechanic on which everything else is built. The basic rules fit on two to three pages and as soon as you have familiarized with them the rest is easy. In contrast to earlier editions we strictly abstain from special rules and exceptions, and always refer to the basic mechanics. This strategy will be kept throughout the entire ruleset. If you've read the first two to three pages of the magic rules you know how sorcery works - everything else is only there to increase depth and add details while always referring to the basic rules. Equally the matrix rules, the vehicle rules, the combat rules, etc. The goal is that a player or game master reads the rules only once, and from then on only has to look up details. Clueless faces, endless looking up things, and especially game masters who frustrated say "ok, then we simply do it like this..." are supposed to become a thing of the past. But this also means that the rules of 4th edition aren't compatible with those of 3rd edition. Of course there will be conversion rules to update characters from 3rd to 4th edition, and background information in the sourcebooks will still be relevant.

QUOTE (mmu1)

Well... If English had an inexplicable shortage of spaces, and just stuck multiple words together with no rhyme or reason, we could have them too. ;)

Oh, there is a reason. Example?

QUOTE

Except for this merging of task fields character generation hasn't changed much

Spot the noun. ;) I actually prefer the "one thing, one noun" approach of German, and it's just as flexible as putting words after each other. You won't find "Charaktererschaffung" in a dictionary since it's a composite word.

Kagetenshi

Apr 4 2005, 09:15 PM

Post #44

Manus Celer Dei

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QUOTE (Christian Lonsing)

But it's not like it would still be necessary to record data since it can be accessed at all times through the omnipresent Matrix.

So the data just exists "out there"? I realize that this is probably just an off-the-cuff comment, but if you don't record the data it stops existing. There isn't some mysterious "internet" out there that files are on today, and likewise it will be the same with the Matrix.

~J

Toa View Member Profile	Apr 4 2005, 09:18 PM Post #45
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 112 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Württemberg, AGS Member No.: 2,068	I think he's rather referring to personal recordings of data. Just like you won't have to record MP3s on your hard disk anymore, since you can always play them "from the net".

Penta View Member Profile	Apr 4 2005, 09:22 PM Post #46
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500	RunnerPaul takes the words out of my mouth. And that had better be what actually happens. It's why I went mad when DidS2 was, if I remember correcttly, deemed to be part of the English-language SR canon. What that essentially says is that in order to get the full info that's in published SR, I have to learn another language. No. Way. In. Hell. Sorry, but while I may want to learn foreign languages, it's difficult for me, and no doubt for many others. Why would I suffer like that for a game?

hermit

Apr 4 2005, 09:24 PM

Post #47

The King In Yellow

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QUOTE

All books, i don't care one fetid drek how many in jokes are put in, should be available in english at the very least. This BS concept of German only books for the german players but has plot effects accross the entire product line (how many metaplots involve SK in some form or fashion) is ludacris. I'm not saying books shouldn't be printed for non-english speaking players, I'm saying that all books should have an english translation.

Those books are published in FanPro Germany's publishing 'slots'. FanPro US has less slots than Germany. But feear not, we have a number of region books already, like 'Erwachte Länder' (Tir Taingire, Tir Na Nog and that crappy little German elf nation that you should be glad to know nothing about, because it blows more than words can say). Also, there's 'Nordamerika' (NAN1 + NAN2 + NAGNA). Those were never translated, but you aren't missing out, except in EL, and it's really no trouble you don't know much about Pomorya.

QUOTE

See, i take issue with the phrase German canon there should be no distinction between German players canon and everyone elses.

I certainly hope so. This was long overdue. *Thinks of DidS, Walzer and Chrom und Dioxin and shudders.*

Pthgar

Apr 4 2005, 08:20 PM

Post #48

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Synner @ Apr 4 2005, 03:53 PM)

Amazing how you guys manage to misinterpret the one note I put in Italics to mean the exact opposite.
...Give us a break guys. We're fixing what's broken.

No hostility on my part towards you. However if several people misinterpret maybe the initial statement is ambiguous (at least in our reading). Eh, this is an imprecise form of communication.

Still I am glad you clarified for s that the German Canon is being brough in with the Other Canon. We can be one big happy SR world. (except for house rules and settings) :P

Dizzo Dizzman View Member Profile	Apr 4 2005, 08:29 PM Post #49
Target Group: Members Posts: 91 Joined: 23-January 05 From: Washington, DC Member No.: 7,007	Hey, the German fans should have whatever books they need. Even if it won't sell well or isn't needed on the English market. I don't need to have a copy of every Shadowrun book in English to be the coolest kid on my block. 8) Hey, speaking of obscure foreign Shadowrun books, did anyone ever run across a Shadowrun Hungry book (SR1)? A friend of mine taught English there and saw a copy. He emailed the developers (I think it was FASA at the time) and they said they had never heard of it before.

MYST1C

Apr 4 2005, 08:33 PM

Post #50

Moving Target

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Some additional details about "German canon"

QUOTE (Synner)

Did you know the German Kaltenstein had been around all this time, even though the English language Germany Sb killed him off, before we set the record straight in DotSW?

According to the German books, Kaltenstein is (or was), using the human alias "Alfred Nebelhorn", the owner of Hamburg's giant Alsterpalast hotel/casino complex and has (had) good ties to local politics and underworld (as of 2053).

QUOTE (Synner)

Did you know that Austria had an Empire and an Emperor again according to German masterial? Did you know it fragmented too?

In the German books the old danube monarchy (Austria, Hungary, Czechia, Slovakia, Slowenia) was re-founded in 2034 as a result of the Euro-Wars. It was ruled by Emperor Leopold I who claimed to be a descendant of the Habsburg family.
The empire was officially dissolved on May 15th 2041. Leo I disappeared.
(According to SoE it was just the Danube Union, Leo was elected not crowned and the union fell apart in 2039.)

QUOTE (Synner)

Did you know that certain German corps have incompatible backgrounds with their English writeups?

I had to notice this when I wrote an entry about ECC Eurotronics for the SR Wiki - in the German books ECC is a single corporation with Alcatel-Nokia being a subsidiary that was lost to Saeder-Krupp in a hostile takeover.
In the English books ECC is a consortium with A-N being a member corporation that merely fell under control of S-K but stayed part of ECC.

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