 SR4 - current FanPro D newsletter |
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 Apr 5 2005, 01:13 AM
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#76
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 403 Joined: 27-August 02 From: Scotland Member No.: 3,175  |
Tell it to everyone else who's been posting on the SR4 boards the last few weeks! 90%+ of what people have been discussing in these threads is based on speculation and supposition, possibly grounded (like this seems to be) in some small amount of fact.
The fact that we could all be off the mark doesn't stop us debating it all at great length, it seems. As a counterbalance, I thoroughly commend the developers for scrapping the Open Test. Well done those men and women! |
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Apr 5 2005, 12:08 AM
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#77
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 25-May 03 Member No.: 4,634 |
It occurs to me that the current system can be fairly well summarized as "(Rating)D6 vs TN 4" even though it works differently in a lot of cases. Yes, the TN isn't always 4. Yes, there's sometimes more or less dice to roll. But as a one-line summary, it's fitting. I think the same would apply here: we're reading a lot into a throw-away line.
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Apr 5 2005, 12:11 AM
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#78
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I would consider that a very, very bad summary. TN 4 not only isn't fixed, it isn't even all that overwhelmingly common as a base TN.
~J |
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Apr 5 2005, 01:20 AM
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#79
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 326 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Vigo (Spanish Kingdom) Member No.: 1,446 |
Well, they changed the system of rolling, but they haven't said that the number of successes won't be of any importance. It could easily be just a marginal success. As for the Almanac, its a great news! A great way of getting new masters and players (especially the firsts) without being pushed back by the amount of info already existing. |
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Apr 5 2005, 01:28 AM
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#80
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 112 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Württemberg, AGS Member No.: 2,068 |
It's not an artifact of the translation. We're not talking Japanese here. It makes just as little sense in the translation as in the original, believe me. I don't attribute the author of that newsletter - Christian Lonsing - with such a keen mind (referring to his blabber in former newsletters), so I'm not that surprised. The way I interpret it is that Lonsing is referring to the fact that any number greater than 5 is also a success. Of course this seems rather obvious, but like I said before... well, you know. If there still are modifiers to the TN he only terribly misused the term "fest"/"fixed"... which, as you can guess, also wouldn't surprise me.
Who ever said rolling more dice? Most probably it's "goodbye combat pool etc.". Further, the scope of attributes and skills might be reduced in order to cut down dice pool size. (Please note I'm only speculating here. As you are.) |
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Apr 5 2005, 12:25 AM
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#81
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Fair enough. That was my take on it as well, but I (not knowing) was leaving the option for the "5+" being the way it was usually referred to in the German books. I guess it isn't. Thanks again for the translation and clarification. ~J |
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Apr 5 2005, 01:59 AM
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#82
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Sorry, but you're wrong. It was. |
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Apr 5 2005, 02:13 AM
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#83
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
Only to language-snobs like you. |
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Apr 5 2005, 01:10 AM
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#84
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 112 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Württemberg, AGS Member No.: 2,068 |
So, in an effort to further distract me from the completion of my term paper, I translated the rest of the newsletter, if anyone's interested. Well, except for his ludicrous use of Japanese ("You!" and "Take care!"). Here you go:
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Apr 5 2005, 01:12 AM
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#85
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Humor is subjective, and I wouldn't be so judgmental by calling people "language snobs" if they know more than one language. If you know English, then you already know a smattering of other languages (just as English has "infected" other languages... In Korean, television is transliterated to "Teh Reh Bee Jeon", for example). |
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Apr 5 2005, 02:21 AM
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#86
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
you know, penta, i bet if you try harder, you could act even more unreasonable, illogical, and cackish. i believe in you.
i think everybody's making a pretty big mountain out of a pretty vaguely-written molehill. |
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Apr 5 2005, 01:19 AM
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#87
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
I cannot agree with this statement more. |
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Apr 5 2005, 04:25 AM
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#88
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
you may now make your mountains out of much more clearly-defined molehills. this results in greater mountain stability.
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Apr 5 2005, 04:04 AM
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#89
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Target Group: Members Posts: 72 Joined: 28-March 05 Member No.: 7,251 |
Ok, I have a little bit more time to speculate on the new mechanic now.
The fixed TN of 5 should be good. I really don't think there will be any modifiers to TN at all. You pick up stat + skill dice and roll. The passive player does the same. You both add up successes. If you get more successes than the opponent, you beat him at the task. If they keep opponents as just threat ratings, then you'll need to get a number of successes equal to their threat rating to beat them at an opposed skill check. More net successes means better results. Combat wise the core system can remain like that as well. Roll a bunch of dice, count successes, and stage up damage depending on how many successes you beat the opponent by. Again, opponents can easily be just a threat rating value, eleminating the need for opposed rolls. Overall, the rolling would go faster. The interesting thing to see will be whether they will keep the Combat pools and its equivalents for magic and matrix. If they do keep it, then I suspect that the pool will be composed of ALL the dice you get to roll for the combat. For example, you may get a combat pool of 2 stats + 2 skills + cyberware (or maybe just stat + skill + cyberware). At the beginning of each action set you choose how many dice will be allocated to hitting people, and how many dice will be allocated to defending against being damaged/hit. The limit on the dice spent on each action could be equal to the rating of your stat + skill you would normally use for the task. Modifiers will undoubtely come in the form of + or - a number of dice. Hopefully they won't go the nWoD way and give a variable # of bonus dice accoding to the type of weapon being used. Doing that makes sense in a way, since having more dice to roll also means more damage can be inflicted. However, it means that you are always better off using the weapon that will give you the most bonus dice, since it not only does more damage but gives you a better chance of hitting as well. To eliminate this problem I really would like to see variable staging brought back in. That way you could give more dice to a weapon to simulate it being easier to hit with, but then increase its staging rating to simulate it being harder to damage someone with. Of course, I really do think that only the attacker should have to use variable staging, and that the defender should keep the staging constant at 2. There is a lot they can do with this basic dice rolling mechanic. Personally, I think its going to rock! The Horror edit: Ok, so no more Combat/Hacking/Control/Magic pools. Oh well. From the FAQ Q. Will SR4 still have Dice Pools? A. Yes, but not in the same sense as SR3. In SR4, any time you make a test, the dice you roll are considered your dice pool. Dice pools consist of skill + attribute, +/- any modifiers. The Dice Pools from SR3–Combat, Hacking, Control, Magic–no longer exist in SR4. |
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Apr 5 2005, 09:00 AM
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#90
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 18-March 02 From: Plymouth UK. Member No.: 2,408 |
You should speak to your dice more. Be nice to them and for god sake put them ass end up on the table when not in use. I have a friend that can only roll well when he bounces the dice off somthing. Rolls normally get pish all rolls against a book kills everything. Weird no. |
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Apr 11 2005, 08:54 PM
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#91
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Target Group: Members Posts: 68 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Goettingen Member No.: 1,094 |
Holà!
The so-called "Shadowrun Worldbook" finally has a Name. "Shadowrun - Die 6. Welt"/"Shadowrun - the sixth world" planned release: September/mid of August if possible @Synner: You've got mail!!! |
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Apr 11 2005, 08:59 PM
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#92
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
One could have it so that, you need to score 5, "5"s |
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Apr 11 2005, 09:10 PM
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#93
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
It's not that weird. He probably doesn't know how to properly roll dice and just drops them flat if he isn't bouncing them off something. This weights dice results considerably, and is why casino games that involve dice require you to bounce dice off of something. Beyond that, it's just luck and more likely your perception. |
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Apr 11 2005, 09:13 PM
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#94
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Covered that above and in other threads. Still doesn't work for me, from the looks of it. ~J |
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Apr 11 2005, 09:23 PM
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#95
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
While we're at it, there's a new Critters book announced on te German SR site ... click here for cover art. Here's the small text covering it so far:
Translation: Critters of the 6th world Not only humanity, other species have awakened too, and some considerably dangerous new species have emerged, whom runners may soon meet face to face! Contains a comprehensive, detailed collection of critters and special rules for playing them and integrating them into a campaign. |
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Apr 11 2005, 09:56 PM
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#96
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
hm. looks like Running Wild.
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Apr 11 2005, 09:57 PM
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#97
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Sounds like the oft mentioned Running Wild sourcebook.
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Apr 11 2005, 10:01 PM
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#98
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Ah, okay. Just wondering. Haven't seen much of Running Wild as of yet.
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Apr 12 2005, 02:59 AM
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#99
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Target Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Japan Member No.: 5,497 |
Ludicrous is a good way of saying it. I'd rather say strange and insulting but that's just me. Would be a lot better if he said anata instead of omae (use omae with great care). I'm really glad there are people with good German that can tanslate it well, running it through a translator while nice just doesn't show the full extent. Thanks to those who translate. Anyways, I believe some others have commented (by Patrick Goodman and others I think) that it's fixed 5+ (meaning 5 or 6 or 33% chance for each die). Personally I'll wait and see about the rules set when it's all done. My biggest concern is the feel of the rules system and the world in general and how all of these changes are going to play out with that. I'm an old school GM who started playing Shadowrun 13 years ago. Shadowrun to me has always been a dark and gritty world with the corps extraterritorial and everywhere and the shadows full of dark and black things. High tech and high diversity (metahumans, magicians, equipment, etc) were also major parts of this. The rules system (2ed in this case) for the most part supported this and encouraged the gritty and diversity (we had all sorts of mages, types of street muscle, etc.) One of the greatest things (and what drew me into the game in general) was the comments from the archtypes at the time (the mercs comment on how we're all buisnessmen, just you work with a deck and I work with an uzi, is still a favorite). This is what I'm concerned about and what the bar is set at. When SR3 came out, I immediately grabbed it and went to work. Lots of great improvements in the system that made it feel grittier, but my group and I noticed some things. First, my group pointed out that I wasn't having as much fun (part of it was the rule changes made me always looking to make sure I had it right and another part was the dryness on how things were written) that was spreading to my group. Another thing we noticed (especially me the GM) was the lack of diversity in the choice of equipment (despite having all of these options) and in character choices occupations (they used only shamans, no more hougans or hermetics despite the extra options or basic sammies instead of the other things offered). Riggers dropped their drones (due to complexity) or went to a very limited selection and mostly went to vehicles only (and sadly mostly cars, no more bikes or even vans). A lot of our problems were fluff related like the lack of colorful commentaries on the equipment that grabbed the players imaginations or the more bland descriptions of archtypes didn't spark their interest in playing that type unlike the old ones. Sometimes it was the rules that got in the way (for some reason the person in my group who just loved mages couldn't stand the new system) or became too complex (rigger anyone?). Now don't get me wrong, some of the stuff was excellent (corporate download and the rules for the corps in the back really brought focus to what was going on) and some of the rules really helped (the explenations in the matrix book focused that and the new 3ed rules gave us our first decker in ages). Also FanPro has done a good job with fluff (SoNA and SoE are excellent) and the story line for the most part. Naturally I'll be disappointed with SoA just because I know Japan very well and could probably add a lot more color and depth to the country (I was going to submit but found out too late about the plan for Asia :dead: ) but I expect the other areas will grab my attention and I know it'll be well done anyways. So my concerns with SR4 are this: -Will the new system hinder the enjoyment of the game or make the game feel less gritty and more action packed or some other feel? For me this is the system supporting diversity as much or greater than SR3. It also has to have a feel of a chance against all odds and a deadliness to it. - Will the fluff of the world change in a way that it doesn't feel like the shadows? The blurring of deckers and riggers really does have to be carefully done as well as the whole wireless matrix. The sudden jump is also going to cause a change in feel and combined with the wireless matrix stuff, it sounds like the feel might become even more tech oriented which could tip the feel away from what Shadowrun has always been. Now this isn't me yelling about the changeover being the end of the world and that FanPro will burn in Hell for this. This is just me trying to express some very legit concerns. FanPro has a good track record with me on what they've put out and I know it'll be well designed and thought out. However FanPro is doing two radical changes at one time by jumping the world forward and changing the system. That's a tough balancing act for any company. When PEG came out with Savage Worlds, it was a great system, but when I tried to apply it to Deadlands I found that it killed the feel of the game completely. The leap forward in Battletech also killed my interest in the Dark Ages setting as well as buying new stuff after the FedCom Civil War. I've already lost three of my favorite systems to changes (LUG shutting down, Btech, and Deadlands), and I would truly hate to lose Shadowrun too. I'd hate to be looking forward to only buying Heavy Gear books. :| |
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Apr 12 2005, 07:54 AM
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#100
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Well, at least it'll be a QUALITY tidbit, unlike a certain 344 page book that covers the shadows of every last town of 10.000, and often in a ridiculous manner. v_v Granted, as the surgeon in Batman 1 says, "just look what I am forced to work with", but anyway, it just .... sucks ... for the most part. Besides, it's never too late to submit a proposal for a Target: Japan book or something like that; with 4th Ed.'s 5-year-gap, there's really room to revisit countries already brushed over in the Shadows of series. I for one would love that, and should you do that, wish you all the best. :) |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 30th November 2025 - 10:59 AM |
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