CGL Speculation #9, Please review ToS before posting Options

[Ancient History]

Well, not to be blunt, putting out e-books is cheap. The clock to pay the freelancers doesn't begin ticking until the book is printed and hits the street, for most contracts. Printing books requires an investment in cash and a printer willing to deal with you. It is generally a better sign to have a physical product than an electronic product - not always, and that's changing, but generally.

Sixth World Almanac, Runner's Toolkit and Corp Guide were extremely late in production but complete in terms of writing when I terminated my contracts, which set things back fairly substantially. Some other writers (Kid Chameleon, here's looking at you) were brought in to re-write sections, edited (Jason), proofed (I'm not sure this happened), and re-laid out (Matt) before release. Yeah, so the already horribly late and then large chunks were ripped out of them, so it took several more weeks to finish those (honestly, CG could have used another week).

[Cain]

Actually, as a freelancer, I'm happy to point out that this choice of action will actively hurt my chances of getting the monies owed me. Please don't attempt to describe my interests, even in general.

I'm not saying you have to buy anything you don't want to--just do it for your own reasons. I'm in a far better position to determine what will get me paid and respected than anyone else is. Since I'm, you know... me.

I'm just repeating what other freelancers have told me. Bobby Derie and Jay Levine didn't get respect until they terminated contracts, others didn't get paid until they withheld copyright. Our voice is in our wallets.

[Method]

As has been pointed out before, not every SR player buys every SR book.

Also, the "vote with your wallet" idea is neat, but "shit we have no money" doesn't directly translate into "gee we should be nicer to the freelancers". You need a PR campaign for that- i.e. an actual organized boycott.

Personally, I think such action will only hurt the freelancers, the game and the fans.

[LurkerOutThere]

I'm just repeating what other freelancers have told me. Bobby Derie and Jay Levine didn't get respect until they terminated contracts, others didn't get paid until they withheld copyright. Our voice is in our wallets.

So what are you boycotting for at this point? Until they pay the freelancers(their working on it and should continue to do so), until they go out of business? Until they rehire Bobby? Until they fire Jason? What is your threshold? Maybe you should start a seperate thread to mobilize the 500 people that think as you do.

[otakusensei]

It comes down to the simple fact that you can't pay the freelancers by buying a book, so don't worry about it. It's the responsibility of the publisher.

If you trust IMR is going to do the right thing going forward and this whole mess is behind them, then by all means buy product.

If you believe that a leopard can't change it's shorts, then you might want to hang on and hope for an eventual reissue under a publisher with less baggage.

[Demonseed Elite]

I'm just repeating what other freelancers have told me. Bobby Derie and Jay Levine didn't get respect until they terminated contracts, others didn't get paid until they withheld copyright. Our voice is in our wallets.

I don't have any issue with someone choosing not to buy CGL products, either because they don't like the products or don't like the publisher, but I'm not particularly trying to encourage any organized boycott.

I think it's fair to judge the products on their merit and let the freelancers deal with the publisher. If freelancers are mistreated in the future (and I hope that isn't the case), they should do the same things past freelancers have done: speak up, withhold copyright, or terminate contracts. But again, I can't fault anyone who chooses not to give money to a company they don't respect.

[Kid Chameleon]

Already in the pipeline, and being worked on for over a year. The Almanac has been planned for years (And was supposed to be a 25th anniversary product, so should have likely been out last year).

You need to stop 'borrowing' the Doc's Delorean.

[Kid Chameleon]

Some other writers (Kid Chameleon, here's looking at you) were brought in to re-write sections

Well, not quite. The other authors and myself asked if we could do some writing for Shadowrun. We weren't recruited, invited or asked to do writing for 6WA until after we offered.

[Ancient History]

That...is exactly what I said. Verb, "brought," phrase "re-write." I mean, you weren't led in on a little leash or anything, but I think I was pretty clear in that y'all were asked to do the re-writes because they needed the re-writes done. Is there a subtle nuance of meaning I'm missing here?

[Bull]

You need to stop 'borrowing' the Doc's Delorean.

Yeah, yeah... 20th Anniversary. I blame Battletech for the confusion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bull

[Kid Chameleon]

That...is exactly what I said. Verb, "brought," phrase "re-write." I mean, you weren't led in on a little leash or anything, but I think I was pretty clear in that y'all were asked to do the re-writes because they needed the re-writes done. Is there a subtle nuance of meaning I'm missing here?

Jason didn't 'bring' us in. We asked for a job and were given an assignment. I was just trying to keep things very clear, as I know you don't like things to be misconstrued.

[Cain]

So what are you boycotting for at this point? Until they pay the freelancers(their working on it and should continue to do so), until they go out of business? Until they rehire Bobby? Until they fire Jason? What is your threshold?

Until they become the kind of company Jay Levine wants to work for.

And for the record, I'm not calling for any sort of organized boycott. I am suggesting that if you want to send a message, sending it to CGL's bottom line is a good place to start.

[Ancient History]

Okay, in my vernacular being "brought in" means you were not doing a job, and then someone asked you or hired you to do a job. That is my definition of brought in. I'm not imagining some Magnificent Seven round-up scene or Jason just popping into the BattleTech section of the freelancer forums and going "You, you, and you, you're now writing for Shadowrun." I think that is a fairly standard definition of the term. So again, I'm not clear on what exactly you're trying to clear up here.

[Kid Chameleon]

My vernacular isn't your vernacular and your vernacular isn't everyone's vernacular. I just wanted to clarify the situation in which we found ourselves working on 6WA. I'm sorry if your choice of wording has caused confusion.

[Dread Moores]

If you support Loren L Coleman and his corrupt policies, then vote for them, by spending money. If you support freelancers getting paid on time, plus the respect they deserve, then vote for that by not spending money.

So this is the bottom line truth? Every single person who buys a product for SR, whether they even know of this situation or not (of which there's likely a much larger number who don't), are doing it specifically because they support Coleman's screwed up policies? They couldn't, you know, maybe just like the product?

Good to know.

[imperialus]

I buy on a product by product basis. If its a good product, I buy it. There isn't time to follow every rumor about every company.
As to what I have purchased from CGL lately, Masters and Minions comes to mind. Its fantastic.

BlueMax

Normally I buy CGL products (at least the PDF's) sight unseen. After some issues with the Corp Guide and Spells and Chrome (Caliban by Paedra Weldon was... well terrible IMO and she's apparently being tapped for a novel to boot) though I'll be waiting for some reviews in the future.

[Ancient History]

My vernacular isn't your vernacular and your vernacular isn't everyone's vernacular. I just wanted to clarify the situation in which we found ourselves working on 6WA. I'm sorry if your choice of wording has caused confusion.

Okay, it's official. I don't like you anymore. What the hell, man? "My vernacular isn't your vernacular?" How hard is it to say "I thought you meant or implied X." where X was "Jason ran a net through the BattleTech freelancers for scabs" or something along those lines? If you misconstrued "brought in" to such an extant you feel you have to make a couple posts defending it, why for the love of Ghost don't you just straight up tell me what you misconstrued about it? Because when you say "My vernacular isn't your vernacular" that sounds like an ass-cover to me, and I don't think you mean it. You had something in mind when you wanted to post a correction, articulate it. It's your opinion, it's not like it can be wrong. But we're never gonna get any sort of communication happening if we don't understand what the hell the other person is taking away from our statements. So obviously you feel that "brought in" was the incorrect term - why? Explain it to me. Tell me what "brought in" means to you, and we can progress.

[BlueMax]

Or , if its just the two of you.. use PM.

Just a suggestion.

BlueMax

[lehesu]

I think that this is a product of miscommunication. Your constant needling, justified or not, AH, has some of the CGL guys on edge. "Brought in", coming from you, could be construed with a negative connotation, especially given your rather vocal opinion of the quality of your successors. I don't think you were being particularly malicious but some people are going to be a little more defensive when you start wading in.

[Banaticus]

Sixth World Almanac, Runner's Toolkit and Corp Guide were extremely late in production but complete in terms of writing when I terminated my contracts, which set things back fairly substantially. Some other writers (Kid Chameleon, here's looking at you) were brought in to re-write sections, edited (Jason), proofed (I'm not sure this happened), and re-laid out (Matt) before release. Yeah, so the already horribly late and then large chunks were ripped out of them, so it took several more weeks to finish those (honestly, CG could have used another week).

Holy Toledo, you're willing to say that out loud? It sounds like you didn't like the way corporate was operating, so you took your immediate manager, whoever that was, bent them over a table and made them squeal because you didn't like what *their* manager was doing. I don't know what point you were trying to make, but it just seems vindictive to withdraw material at that point. Couldn't you have been a little more selective like, "Ok, all the stuff that's going to print is going to print, but nothing else ever again."

[Cain]

So this is the bottom line truth? Every single person who buys a product for SR, whether they even know of this situation or not (of which there's likely a much larger number who don't), are doing it specifically because they support Coleman's screwed up policies? They couldn't, you know, maybe just like the product?

Every dollar spent is a vote. Buy gas at BP, you're supporting poor environmental policies, even if you like their gas. Buy something from CGL, you're supporting the Loren L Coleman retirement fund, even if you like their products.

I *love* Shadowrun. And I won't buy their products because I can't stomach what CGL has done to a lot of people I respect.

[Grinder]

Every dollar spent is a vote. Buy gas at BP, you're supporting poor environmental policies, even if you like their gas. Buy something from CGL, you're supporting the Loren L Coleman retirement fund, even if you like their products.

What percentage of Shadowrun players (and possible buyers of new books) know about this, I wonder? I mean, sure, everyone here at dumpshock.com does, but we're just a small part of the community.

[Dynamo Dave]

What percentage of Shadowrun players (and possible buyers of new books) know about this, I wonder? I mean, sure, everyone here at dumpshock.com does, but we're just a small part of the community.

As far as I've been able to tell there's only about 20-30 particularly loud-mouthed individuals even within the online community, and of those 20-30 I'd be surprised if even a significant fraction of them would actually boycott the game. Spamming the same basic post over and over across multiple message boards does not a large mob make.

[Ancient History]

Holy Toledo, you're willing to say that out loud? It sounds like you didn't like the way corporate was operating, so you took your immediate manager, whoever that was, bent them over a table and made them squeal because you didn't like what *their* manager was doing. I don't know what point you were trying to make, but it just seems vindictive to withdraw material at that point. Couldn't you have been a little more selective like, "Ok, all the stuff that's going to print is going to print, but nothing else ever again."

Well, it's important to point out that:

a) Jason had just banned me from the freelancer forums because I accused him of lying (I still maintain he was being dishonest, Jason disagrees),

b) I had until that point kept to my contracts even though most of the freelancers I knew, liked, and respected had left or withdrawn their contracts, so I was feeling a bit alienated and alone, but I was determined to be professional about my contracts

c) I was butting heads with Jason constantly, having to go to extreme lengths to get the tiniest shit accomplished, and it felt like I was fighting a tide of shit when it came to everything - the metaplot, background for upcoming sourcebooks, proofing comments...just every fucking thing was turning into a battle between the two of us

d) This was at the end of a very long period of freelancer abuse. By which I mean late payments, payment only with the threat of withdrawing copyright, insincere responses, Jason accusing me of being greedy, friends not getting paid, friends getting bounced checks, bad plots handed down from on high, getting deliberately ignored for choice assignments (like contributing to an anthology) while getting desperate fucking e-mails to write stories on short notice, and getting Marc Tassin foisted on us at the last minute, which is like the Spanish Inquisition but for SR freelancers. So there was a great deal of pent-up aggravation.

e) This did not get better after Frank Trollman's initial post, the revelations about Loren and Randall's rumored shenanigans, and a lot of weird accusations were thrown out about some people I consider friends.

f) I did let Vice continue on, when the payment for it was technically late. I could have insisted the run be pulped.

No, I didn't bend Jason over the table and make him squeal, but I didn't pull the drafts just because of what Loren and Randall were doing - I didn't like what Jason was doing, is doing with the line. So yeah, I gutted a couple books. And judging by Corp Guide (at least the first chapter), I think they're the poorer for it. I know I'm the poorer for it because I'm never going to get paid. Still, I think it was the right thing to do.

[lehesu]

Every dollar spent is a vote. Buy gas at BP, you're supporting poor environmental policies, even if you like their gas. Buy something from CGL, you're supporting the Loren L Coleman retirement fund, even if you like their products.

I *love* Shadowrun. And I won't buy their products because I can't stomach what CGL has done to a lot of people I respect.

As far as I understand it, boycotting BP stations doesn't really hurt BP the company in the vast number of cases. Just the poor guy owning and operating the station.