CGL Speculation #1
CGL Speculation #2
CGL Speculation #3
CGL Speculation #4
CGL Speculation #5
CGL Speculation #6
CGL Speculation #7
CGL Speculation #8

See also the Terms of Service. (h/t to RunnerPaul)

Recent big event: Catalyst Game Labs License Extension Imminent

No hat tip required, seeing as I stole the idea in the first place from how you yourself had started #7.

Hmmm... so I did. Seems like ages ago.

Well if nothing else I cut and pasted your text, so there you go.

Pics or it didn't happen.

So the business side of CGL was a mess before all this. Now PSI is going to ensure that books get to paying customers and presumably there are mechanisms in place to make sure money gets back to TOPPS to pay the license. I'm curious to know what mechanisms have been put in place to ensure freelancers get paid?

I'm sure more details will come to light in the next few days, but maybe Jason has heard something about this?

:::Pause, deep breath, sigh:::

Ambivalent feelings. Glad this is over. Not sure if I want to continue with Shadowrun. It's the only RPG I've ever played consistently. I don't like the idea of wrong deeds rewarded. I do like the idea of redemption and rehabilitation, if there is any sort of contrition at all on the part of the offenders. Right now I don't see it. JMH has been a brick (in the British sense [that's good]). LLC, RNB, et. al.? From what I can tell, not so much.

I don't like street level noir except to the extend that it allows runners (us) to be involved in the metaplot and have a significant effect on the world. I have a job I slog through for 50-60 hrs a week. I don't want my PCs to do the same thing, but criminally. I want them to matter.

Rules wise, I love SR4. Sure there's a few areas that could use a little work, but on the whole it's the best edition we've ever had. If the people that aren't responsible for it aren't around anymore, that makes me sad. Then again, none of the writers of SR2 were around for SR4 and it still managed to be an improvement (mechanics-wise, sorry guys, no offense, but my heart's with the SR2 fiction).

:::another slower sigh:::

I just don't know. Jason says that he's not changing shadowrun, just adding noir. Ancient History and some others say he doesn't understand the setting. Rather than continue to debate and speculate on things we have no control over and are frankly already decided, I'd really like this thread to focus on two things:

• Why should I continue to purchase Shadowrun products?
• Why should I stop buying Shadowrun products?

• What are the ethical pros/cons?
• What are the game mechanics pros/cons?
• What are the fluff/fiction pros/cons?

• What are you going to do? Why?

Thank for your input. Even the snarky ones.

EDIT: Also, I'm sad because I figured it would be a lot easier for the freelancer family to mend in a new home. Oh well. Such is life. JMH, AH: I for one would love it if you two kissed and made up. Since I doubt there's a snowball's chance in hell AH would be the first, it could go something like this:

JMH: I'm sorry for kicking you out of the forums. I value functional conflict. It strengthens ideas like iron sharpens iron. Only, it hurt my feelings when you told my friends I'm was a liar. I consider myself a man of integrity and it's deeply offensive to my sense of self to hear you say otherwise. Please don't do that anymore.

AH: I forgive you, and ... I'm sorry. I should have said that to your face or not at all. I'm sorry for telling the world you're a terrible developer and a bad person. I didn't mean it. I place a high value on the quality of work I produce. It's part of who I am and I don't make apologies for being a perfectionist. I felt like you were taking something I love and devaluing it. I felt like you weren't listening to me. It made me feel less valuable as a person. It hurt my feelings and I lashed out at you. Then these guys on these forums encouraged me and I got stuck in a self-reinforcing feedback loop. The worse I treated you the more encouragement I got. It made me feel good. I never felt good around you.

JMH: I forgive you, and ...I'm sorry about that. I just wanted to make a good impression with the freelancers and I felt like you were in my way. But listen, you are great at what you do. Come back. Just promise not to undermine me in front of the freelancers or fans anymore. I'm new to being a developer. I want to hear your suggestions. Just bring them straight to me. If you do that, we can have a great working relationship.

AH: That sounds really great. I'd like that.

:::And the two live happily ever after and Shadowrun is better for it:::

Wishful thinking? Sure. But we're talking about a world where man meets magic and machine.

Well, it's not really over. The ink isn't dry on the extension. It's not clear how long the extension is for - until next Thursday, or through GenCon, or another three years, until the heat death of the universe? And there's still the chapter 7 stuff. I figure there's still a good deal of speculation to go around.

What I find funny is the people saying Jason does not understand SR are the people who wrote for SR4 and whether you like it or not SR4 was a fairly large departure from what SR was in the feel of the setting. So did they understand SR when they made there changes? How is adding noir any different from the scale of changes they did. I'd say noir is closer to traditional SR than the SR4 take on the world, but whatever.

I happen to think 4E is the worst rules and setting feel so far but everyone is different and if the people responsible for it are gone I have a bit of hope for the game now.

Eh, all I can do is wait and see. I like fourth edition a lot so I guess I just need to see what direction they decide to go. If it isn't what I think Shadowrun should be then I will just stick with what I got and move forward with my own Shadowrun campaigns and my own metaplot.

It is still a waiting game for me.

If you like what you see, if you enjoy it enough that you feel you want to own it, then you should continue to buy SR products.


If you don't like the material being produced, or if it isn't useful to you, then you should not.


You get what you pay for. If you buy a bad product, you're rewarding the people that write and produce that product. If you buy a good product, same same.

In the grand scheme of things, yes, continuing to buy products from CGL is rewarding people like Randall Bills and Loren Coleman - because these are the people that directly profit when CGL profits, and when you buy their products they profit. However, it is not your job or social responsibility to punish them. Your purpose as a consumer is to reward good actions by buying shit and bad actions by not buying shit. Your vote is the almighty dollar, and how you spend it is entirely up to you - and don't let anyone tell you different.


I'm gonna speak just from experience here, but Jason doesn't know the rules, and doesn't have a lot of perspective on them that I can see. We never really got around to talking about rules design philosophy, but I know he was never involved in any of the planning or discussions about the rules that came out, good or bad. I could go farther on that particular topic, but let's be honest: Jason probably won't be writing any rules. He wasn't when I left, anyway. Other people will write the rules, and that could be a good thing or a bad thing. Obviously, all Shadowrun mechanics aren't winners. I've made my fair share of mistakes (cough, hack, Runner's Companion, please forgive me), so I've got limited room to talk here - except, well, I tried. You have no idea how I tried. I honestly don't think the FAQ would be posted if I hadn't threatened Jason I would post it myself if he didn't.

Sort of drifted off-topic there, let me recap: there's no way to tell whether it would be good or bad. Probably some of both in any event.


Much of what I said above applies. Leaving aside my opinion on Jason's writing, we haven't really had an example of a book he's solely produced or an entire book by people that haven't left. People like Brandie Tahlvin, Ken' Horner, David A. Hill Jr., they're decent writers. Do they know Shadowrun? Some more than others. Does Jason know enough about Shadowrun to successfully edit their work? Well, he didn't do it in Corp Guide. It could get better. That was a shaky product, lot of last-minute work.


I'm gonna wait. I'm going to finish a few things I've started, and I'm going to see if IMR implodes or not. I hope it does. I hope Jason goes and finds a great job that never involves Shadowrun. I hope to work on Shadowrun again. Honestly though? If CGL keeps the game, if Jason Hardy stays on the line, I'm done with the game. Finis. I'll probably sell my books and stare at my empty shelves and feel very empty for long time, and that will be it.

Thank you for the thorough and thoughtful post, AH.

The entire contracting system is being revamped. The freelancer audit is underway, and that will ensure that CGL's records are accurate. Check-writing systems have already been revamped, to ensure that money goes where it's supposed to go. We also have new calculations to make sure we're planning properly on project expenses and income.

I don't know all the details of the ongoing revamps. We have someone well versed in accounting and related tasks doing a lot of work to put things in order, so I'm mostly leaving her to her stuff, since she knows what she is doing better than I do.

Jason H.

Well, it might ensure that CGL has records. The form sent to me, it was tracking checks, not the contracts they were paying. It's a start.


There's a funny story I could tell you about Digital Grimoire here, but maybe another time.


This is technically completely accurate while still managing to be disingenuous. The SR line developer has zero say in the accounting and money matters. Your influence on the matter is minimal. Saying you're staying out of Amy's way is like a turtle saying he's stay out of the eagle's way while she's flying. Is it so hard not to intimate you have any influence over this stuff at all?

Not hard at all. I didn't say I had any influence over her; what I was saying was that if I kept asking for details of all the revamps, that would be getting in her way. Which I don't want to do.

Jason H.

As a player of SR since the beginning, even with the terrible rules that were SR1, I can honestly say that the above quote bums me out. AH, I wish you could find a way to let bygones be bygones and get back to writing SR, even if it is with a company that you despise.

Either way, I hope SR continues to live a long life, as I, for one, thoroughly enjoy the game, and have done so through it all.

Jason, I hope you take good care of long loved game.

Unlike the people responsable for the faqs right??? O wait...


Should have thought of that before showing your tru colors as a backstabbing conniving person that no professional and no company would ever want in their employ. Or at least none that I can think of would want someone who will share confidentil info with anyone so eager to burn their bridges and badmouth people not even responsable for the financil issues at the company. Unprofressional and petty people get what they deserve. Which is why you got what you deserve.


How about you stick with your goodbye and leave or are you not even capable of back that sentimint either??? Good riddence anyway. Maybe the fanbase can stop having to deal with people like you now and get back to having fun with the game.

Oh my, time for popcorn already? I don't know if I have enough fireproofing here to get in the middle of this one.

Man, so much hate over this debacle. All I can do is sigh....

Shadowrun is bigger than any of this crap.

Not only did one of my quips cause Jason to threaten me, SR Developer Emeritus Tom Dowd threatened me.

Pax: Please review the ToS. Personal attacks are not allowed. Your tone and statements are inflammatory. This post will be reviewed by the moderators.

/me pulls up a stool and watches.

Hang on, I've had a stool here all along.

/me continues to sit and watch.

I don't know you were talking about trying to squeeze a cyber penis into something, maybe it is you who were threatening. I mean that sounds painful.

You could start a thread just on that. Seems kind of silly to have this thread focus on you.

Or fun!

Or both!

The FAQ before last was done by Rob Boyle. It took a couple years later and serious effort to put out the next one, and I know because I did a significant bit of the heavy lifting; the others were mostly freelancers that had actually written the original rules. So yes, unlike the people responsible for the FAQ.


I haven't backstabbed anyone, or revealed anything that was confidential. I have burnt my bridges and bad-mouthed people, because there are bridges that need to be burned and people that need to be bad-mouthed and because I'm a terrible and honest person.

I hope CGL will take this opportunity to really devote the resources necessary to make Shadowrun every bit the lean, mean, polished game that Battletech has been. I don't expect this to happen over night, but I hope a sustained long-term strategy is applied to the line, as opposed to the constant regime changes of the past.

Jason: Thanks for the info.

I do wonder, however, if this accounting person was sent by Topps to clean house or if CGL hired her on their own initiative...

If only the rules for Battletech were actually lean and mean. They've done a great job with the metaplot and the setting in recent years, but that is one area where Total Warfare failed badly for my tastes. It contributed horrifically to rules bloat, when instead so much of it needed to be cut down.

The same holds true for SR for me as well.

Edit: That said, I guess I'm glad CGL continues with the games. I do enjoy the fluff material BT has presented, as well as some of the recent SR material. But outside of all of this, I've simply decided that I've concentrated entirely too much on these two games exclusively for the last decade. It's been fun actually exploring other games again.

I want to go over the CGL Press Release piece at a time:


So nothing has been signed, and this is only an extension to the current license, not a new license.


Lawyers are reviewing to make sure no one added anything to this at the last minute. This is VERY interesting. Topps is in the position of power. They own the license, they know what has been up. Having been in negotiations like this before, I read it to be that Topps has gone to CGL, said "this is the deal, you better live up to it". CGL is going to sign it, Topps will look at what they signed to make sure it is correct, then they will sign it. It is not a very friendly move based on this. It sounds like Topps doesn't want to break someone new in right now.


CGL is still operating under the original terms while Topps figures out exactly how much rope to give CGL.


Translation: Please Topps, don't take the license away, we'll do what you want, how far do we have to bend over?


Translation: We have LLC and CGL's balls in a Testicle Lock Box. If they breathe wrong, we crush them. We want to be paid. We want what LLC owes us to be paid, so we'll keep CGL alive long enough to pay us back. If they behave themselves we might let them continue to exist after we get our money back, assuming they don't try and fuck us over again.


Randall does not know that Corporate Guide has already been released, he isn't aware of Shadowrun, he wants to only save his beloved Battletech.


Anyone see where I read this wrong?

-M&P

That's fair. Total Warfare, perhaps because of its toolbox approach, jams in perhaps too many tables and ancillary rules. The core rules themselves are no different than previous versions, really, but the exhaustive way that they are presented makes them a great deal more daunting.

To be honest, I'm really interested to see how much support the CBT RPG gets. War games and RPGs are different beasts and it will be interesting to see if the darling franchise's RPG stacks up.

Not to pick nits, but Corp Guide has not been released in print as of yet.

M&P: Or perhaps CGL is genuinely contrite and has shown a strong willingness to act on their own initiative to makes things right. Of course, that answer might be too simple to believe...

"releasing for print publication" may mean "in print in store so people can buy it". Operation Klondike has already streeted. The others have not. Probably not malicious ignorance on the part of RNB in this case.

It may be popular to believe that CGL is walking on millimeter thin ice here (this is the speculation thread, afterall) and it is true that they will be under some degree of scrutiny. But I think it is at least as probable that Topps has seen the enormous commercial successes achieved by CGL over the years and is willing to stick to their proven guns over a rough patch.

I can accept that, depending on how tightly he wants to parse his words. I am willing to believe that he is being very careful with what he says, and does not want to imply a street date.

I still think he likes BT over SR.

-M&P

Wow mind and pen that's some pretty good spin you got on those words.


For weeks people have been going on and on about how no statement that the license was being renewed was the surest sign ever that the license wasn't going to be renewed. Now there is notification, not ironclad, but pretty good notification that the extension is coming and people look for ways to have it be negative. As others have said Bills statement was pretty accurate, none of those books have seen print release yet.

Of that I have no doubt. While I have no proof that Topps "went medieval" on CGL, I imagine that they were quite pointed in expressing their displeasure with the financial "issues". Acting on their own willingness and acting out of necessity are different things, but they will look the same to an outsider. Since we do not know what the senior management of IMR/CGL truly think or believe, either is a possibility. The end result is that they have apparently made structural changes.

You may have missed some of my earlier posts where I pointed out that if they actually did make significant structural changes, and convinced Topps that they could right their ship, that my guess was that Topps would let them keep the license as it would be, for Topps, the most economical in the short run and the best chance they have at recouping any lost monies they are owed.

It would appear that IMR/CGL has managed to pull this off. It does not, however, change the probable reality that Topps is keeping IMR/CGL on a very tight leash. Having worked with intellectual property licensing before, I can tell you that if you even think you've been burned, you tend to keep a close eye on things moving forward until that trust is rebuilt.



True. And it may not even be malicisous. It has been indicated by others that he favors BT. He just may not have known. However, as this is a SR discussion, I thought it interesting.



I think it is just as likely that Topps has seen the financial success of the Shadowrun License, seen the financial issues with CGL, and made the decision that, for now, the devil you know is better than the devil you don't. If they pull the license, odds are IMR/CGL dies. If they feel they are owed money from IMR/CGL, pulling the license does not get them paid. Keeping the license with IMR/CGL gets them paid. The logic is simple, if they think IMR/CGL can be turned around, at least enough to pay them, then they will give them a little rope. If IMR/CGL does not honor their new contract in any way, I imagine Topps will fry them.

-M&P

Thank you. I would have thought this was obvious, but it was a piece of dark humor. Spin on the announcement to frame it in a certain light.



See above and my many prior posts. I never doubted that IMR/CGL would keep the license. The financial issues from LLC and the money they owe Topps is to much for Topps to kill them off if there is a chance they can repay what they owe. It is why the preference, in general, is for Chapter 13 bankruptcy over Chapter 7 - you would rather get your money back. The moral and ethical issues are another matter, as are the long term issues for LLC if the draws we were shown are correct.

-M&P

I remember standing up at the SR seminar the year after SR1 was released and asking where they got their examples in the game from, as they were statistically absurd. The fanboys, to put it mildly, didn't completely agree, they all seemed to be convinced SR1 was the most perfect game ever made.

I abandoned SR until SR3 came out.

Question, where do people get the assumption that IMR owes Topps money or that it's of a figure that would be a figure big enough to actually cause Topps to keep IMR around to recoup their losses? Jennifer has stated that she lef tin aprt over not reporting foreign royalties, But I believe someone at least floated that thsoe royalties had never been reported. What is the likelyhood that these royalties wern't in fact part of the contracts? Yes I realize that is rather far fetched but that's the only signifigant source of money that IMR might owe Topps going into this thing.

Funny, I think SR2 was the pick of the litter rules wise.

I mean , at least a Juggernaut was still a Juggernaut. Now we got boys taking them out with hunting knives...


BlueMax

Isn't that the national sport of Dumpshock?

-M&P

No. That was 2009. There are two national sports now

* Riding High and Mighty
* Beating the dead horse


Which works well for me, as my players say I can excel at both.

BlueMax

For me, there are two reasons I came to that conclusion.

1. The foreign royalties you mentioned
   If they owe for foreign royalties, that could be significant. Just because no one ever reported them doesn't mean that they weren't supposed to be reported.
2. The nature of licensing deals
   Most licensing deals combine both a per unit fee and a percentage of revenue. I have not seen the BT/SR license, so I can not definitively say, but if portion of revenue is a part, then the LLC draws could affect the revenue reporting. If Topps is not confident in the books, then they may wait and keep IMR/CGL alive until they can be sure of what those numbers should be.

-M&P

There are suggestions that not only were multiple years of many $10Ks worth of convention sales not reported to Topps, they were not reported to the IRS and state sales tax authorities. Who knows?

Question why is it that no matter what you defend this company? Do you work for them, contract for them, or anything of the sort? Of course not because then you would probably not be defending them because you wouldn't have been paid on time, or at all.

Just the royalties you bring up are extremely likely not small and last I checked if you own an IP all money is something you have to collect with impunity or you establish precedent for others to use the IP without paying you. And if you realize that something is far fetched why bring it up to defend a company that has shown such blatant issues?

I'm a SR2 person as well. SR3 was close enough that it worked for me but the butchery of the skills or more specifically the weapon skills into separate skills bothered me and picking your own damage level for your spells on the fly I did not like as well. All of the systems had and have there problems, for me and how we gamed SR2s problems fell more into the tell your player to stop being a dick category which we found easier to deal with.(grounding spells through your F1 spirits as an example)

Yeah, that is some tragic shit to say. I guess it's an addict's remedy, like an alcoholic who feels he can't have a drop of booze lest he go into full remission.

I won't say that's not a coward's move, but I can't claim any sort of superiority in that department.

One other interesting tidbit that I had to confirm.


If this is the same Tina Trenkler on LinkedIn, then she is the VP of Entertainment Finance & Operations.

Speculation: This could suggest that Topps is getting involved to some degree in operational management at Catalyst.
BIG Speculation: It could also be a precursor to bringing the entire operation in-house.

-M&P

Whether it's a new license or a revision of the previous contract doesn't really matter. IMR's control over the properties will be extended for some undefined period of time. The wording seems fair to me. As for discussing it before the ink is dry, see below.


I read this differently. I imagine the business people sat down and hammered out a final deal and that it was promptly sent off to Topps' counsel to be turned into a contract. That's not an instantaneous process, though, and IMR has a hearing on Friday. It's really, really helpful for them to have this in public ASAP. If I were Topps and I felt IMR was in the best position to monetize my properties (or that I needed to help them limp along for awhile so I could get the royalties I'm owed), I'd also want an announcement as soon as terms were settled to help stave off the bankruptcy filing. If not for the lawsuit, we'd probably not have heard about this b/f it was final.

Jason said a few threads back that the license expired on or around June 1, so they've been operating under an extension provided for in the original contract for awhile now. I'm not an IP wheeler/dealer, but I understand that savings clauses that allow things to continue as normal while good faith re-up negotiations take place are pretty common. If anything, that Catalyst wasn't told to stand down as soon as the license expired and while others bid for the licenses was a sign that Catalyst has/had a decent chance to keep the properties.


I'm intrigued by this part of the PR. Someone on Frank's board noted that the Topps "manager" quoted is actually the VP of Operations. That she's "overseeing Catalyst's operations" sounds intense. There may be some parallel management going on at the moment?

@Edit: LinkedIn says she's VP of Entertainment Finance & Operation. I'd bet she's the one who's been doing the dealing for Topps. Former Wizards of the Coast person (Seattle), previously an EVP with a Hidden City (Seattle). The freelancer letter's bit about "heavyweights" who could grease the skids with Topps makes A LOT more sense now. She would know a lot of the same WA-based people as Loren and Randall.


Important as we think we are, the PR is really directed to retailers who need to know that IMR is a going operation so they continue tp stock product. There's not been a print release of Corporate Guide. Given the target audience, the language seems right to me.

Or, it could just be that she is the VP over the section that keeps track of what is going on with Topps licensed IP.
I mean, Topps should know better then to think about trying to buy out a game company. They already learned they were clue-less on operating one in the past. As in: their micro-managing and second guessing the people in the
company drove it into the ground, and into un-profitability as they fired most of the staff, leaving only 2 managers
with no-one else there.

She clearly has the credibility to manage it in house. I wonder what the length of this license extension is. If it's 6 months or something then I'd be suspicious that M&P is correct, though the Bella Sara _ M:TG games are WAY bigger than SR will ever be, unless they want to flog some merch.