Shadowrun is an awesome setting!

What else can you say? I've been hooked since one of my players "gave" me his SR1 hardback and the other books that first came out so I could GM it. The stories, the art, the open-ended nature of the game... love it! I still maintained my adoration after running it and realizing the SR1 rules didn't quite work.

Nobody likes the debacle that has been going on all year with CGL... which comes to me as a surprise, because this is Shadowrun for fragsake, and what self-respecting SR gamer doesn't like this many twists, turns, and intrigue?

Anyway, here is the lesson I have learned to be successful in my pursuits: Survive at all costs if sticking around allows you to continue to enjoy what you want and get what you want:

If you love Shadowrun like I love it, you're going to play it when you have the opportunity. You're going to GM it when you want to. You're going to buy SR media when you like it enough or "have to have it!". If you produce it, you're going to do whatever you can to see that it keeps getting produced. If you write it, you'll never stop or get distracted.

...because you love it.

When you don't enjoy it anymore, when you truly don't want to anymore, then you won't. But until that moment comes, PERSIST! Never undermine your love or your enjoyment. Never undermine your own goals or dreams. Never cut your nose off, because ultimately you only decide your own fate. You're just one person, and you'll have to live with the spite done to your face, not anyone else.

What's going to happen to Shadowrun? I speculate that our love for the game will continue to make it a success, because let's face it. Shadowrun is awesome!

Mesh

I just have a few comments.

First, freelancers aren't exactly fired. We're employed on an assignment-by-assignment basis. The publisher can just stop giving us assignments at any time for any reason (similarly, a freelancer can stop pitching for assignments at any time for any reason). The freelancer forums are a privilege for freelancers to help collaboration and so losing your access to them is a pretty clear sign that you won't be getting future assignments, but it's not exactly the same as being fired.

It's really not too terribly surprising that AH lost freelancer forum access when Jason found out what he was saying to other freelancers during a freelancer chat. It doesn't surprise me, at least. It doesn't mean that AH was wrong or that Jason was wrong, but publishers will tend to stop working with freelancers that they find difficult to work with. Take Frank Trollman. Smart guy and a good writer, but even I'll admit he was difficult to work with. He has his positions and he gets very entrenched into them, which makes the usual push/pull compromise of collaborative writing a real exercise in frustration.

Finally, I keep in touch with a lot of the freelancers on a daily basis, including ones that are still writing for CGL. If the professional relationship between CGL and the freelancers improves, I'll probably hear about it because I'll be asking. And if I hear about it, I'll let people here know about it because that's the resolution I've been seeking. I doubt we'll ever know the details of Loren L. Coleman paying back CGL, but as long as it doesn't interrupt freelancers getting paid, that's an internal issue for CGL to work out.

And, as much as I enjoy GMing.....I would really like to be a player sometimes....I cannot be as cool as a GM as I can as a player!

I ran across all of this yesterday in my search to find out why Eclipse Phase is now just under $200 on amazon. Having been a SR and BT fan for about 20 years now I find it all a bit depressing. It is pretty easy to draw conclusions, pick sides, and point fingers; after-all isn't that what the internet is for when you aren't surfing for porn. But when it comes down to it I just like playing the games, I just enjoy the settings. I have seen these licenses get passed around from developer to developer to several times. Fortunately the IP's are strong enough that they always seem to land on their feet.

I understand some people want to "vote with their money", and that is their choice, but I think in the long run that tactic is going to hurt the IP's more than Catalyst. After seeing the books from the licenses Catalyst lost over this incident skyrocket in price I went the other route, that is to say I ordered every SR and BT book I think I need to run games for the next decade if need be in case they do go out of print soon; 9 books in total.

Oh, I love them, in my game. To suggest that I should use that as a model for what is normal and acceptable behavior for a real-world company is, to be blunt, an indication of a loss of the ability to distinguish between fantasy and reality. This is a potentially self-destructive mental issue that can lead to such things as thinking you're a female elf shaman doing a run on a corporate facility when actually you're just a guy with a wig and a Japanese blade robbing the staff of a lingerie store in Belfast.

So, in the good name of the hobby that I love, step away from the knickers, Beho, please.

You know, it was guys JUST like him that convinced my parents to throw out all my AD&D books when I was in Middle School. *sigh* You see - THIS is why we can't have nice things.

We should make a pact among gamers everywhere - if you are ever arrested, involved in a scandal, or otherwise find yourself in trouble, you vow that under NO circumstances will you mention RPGs in any way, shape, or form upon penalty of being bludgeoned to death with copies of the HERO 5th Edition core rulebook.

This has been my experience as well. Though my group has on occasion purchased new books for me (but only because they wanted the new toys in our game).

That's the way it is in my area as well. Although, some of the usual players are starting to give GMing a shot so that everyone can have a chance to play. It still follows the pattern of having not enough GMs and too many players.

Depends on the state you live-in. Here in Colorado, it's a no-fault state. Your boss can fire you for no reason whatsoever, especially if you work in a non-union shop. Even if you are union, they don't need much provovaction to terminate.

New Hampshire is similar, though there was a recent case where four women were fired from a town government office for gossiping about their boss. They counter-sued and a $130,000 settlement was reached.

Though that's completely irrelevant to anything involving Catalyst freelancers!

Are you kidding? That's how I get my books.

Does that mean I get lynched if I say I actually enjoyed the Hero system back in the day?

<hiding now>

It's a reference to the sheer mass of the rulebook. 6th edition, if you haven't seen it, is a textbook. The kind of thick history or physics book you got in school. And it's not the entire set of rules. There's a similarly sized volume on character creation.

http://www.robotviking.com/wp-content/uplo.../01/hero6th.jpg

They broke the main book up into 2 books this time around. Both are massive. I love hero it is probably my favorite system mechanically overall.

What.

Seriously, what.

He should visit his psychiatrist more regularily and take up crossdressing and/or cosplaying to live his wild female elf sex fantasies. Beats shadowrun in the weird sex cathegory. At least the games I attend.

Because it's currently out of print, and because they can. Not that they'll actually sell it for that price.

I think that is where most players of the game are, except that as long the quality remains good and the meta plot does not turn into a pixie clank crusade for the sacred jewel of the the tiger, most of us players don't care how CGL is run.

We don't know all the facts regarding LLC's mismangement of the funds. Probably never will. Private companies can do that, but I do suspect Topps will be keeping a short leash on CGL for the time being to rebuild trust. The fact of the matter is, Topps will continue to license SR to CGL in the near future.

This is because Shadowrun is bigger than all of this petty argument.

I said both parties are suspended immediately. Then an inquiry happens. Usually the inquiry gets the manager either fired or moved regardless because they have to be held to a higher standard and in 80% of cases they did not go to their superiors and report the problem or take the proper step needed. Contractors (who are basically freelancers, your paid to do job X and you have Y time to do it) usually don't have as much protection. They usually also end up fired or moved as well as the manager. The only case I have ever seen where the employee was fired and the manager was not fired or moved the manager had spent 6 months talking to his bosses about the problem employee and those bosses had talked to the employee as well even bringing in a mediator and having multiple marks put in his file.

And this would be true at IBM, AT&T, Microsoft, Department of Justice, Department of Defense... need I go on?


[edit]

In this particular case, AH and Jason would have both been suspended until the inquiry was done. Most likely AH would have been toast not being an actual employee. Jason status would have depended completely on what the inquiry finds. Even then if CGL likes Jason and hes found to be at fault they may just give him a different job with other responsibilities. Or the inquiry may find he followed all the procedures necessary to cover the company bum from lawsuits and stay where he is.

Lets just say my experiences differ. What I've seen is the manager is usually asked to start documenting the problems with the employee and when they hit a certain mark they fire the employee.

"Near future" is vague, though, so let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. The license extension was not finalized last I heard (no signatures on the dotted line yet) and we do not know how long it will be for.

Speaking as a contractor, they sometimes don't even hit a certain mark. It all depends on the company's HR policy and even whether or not the state they're in is a right-to-work.

I understand that, I grabbed the free pdf from Rob's site. I hate reading off a screen for something like that so Ill just print it, get it bound, and have my own one off copy. I was more concerned with getting the rest of the SR and BT books I wanted before they are out of print too. Obviously I hope Catalyst pulls itself up by the ole' boot straps and gets it's business in proper order so that the people that have made this game great stay around to keep doing so, but I wasn't willing to take that chance and end up not having the material around. I just love the games, I could care less what imprints' name is on the cover. As a fan the whole situation is just kinda sad in a 'you just found out your dog might be dieing' kind of way.

Yeah contractors I don't know, but where I have worked it usually is 3 documented incidents and then they fire the employee. Once they have that they usually figure they have enough to protect there butts if it comes to a lawsuit even if the States laws are a pain in the ass. Though yes in some states they can basically fire you because they don't like the cut of your jib.

What he said. The link I gave was for when the HERO guys literally went out and fired a gun at the 5th Edition brick, um, Rulebook and it stopped bullets. They bring it to GenCon each year - ask to see it. And frankly, I think HERO is a very cool system. I think the presentation makes it inaccessible for most people (although that's slightly better in 6th edition) which is its biggest flaw.

Now to avoid getting a moderator thwack for digressing too far - I'm (sadly) not making it to Origins this year. Does CGL have the uber-booth from GenCon? Or have they scaled things back due to the trouble? I'm not sure how those things go - do you pay in advance?

I don't know how GenCon payments go precisely, but I know we've been making them recently. According to the exhibitor hall map as of May 2010, Catalyst is in pretty much the same spot we were last year. I believe we own most of the booth materials we've used in the past, so they should be about the same.

Jason H.

Heh, I just had a talk with one of the guys in charge of the booth. His last IM was "Same booth as before."

One of my players actually took offense the other day when I said, "I'm making another character that I'll never get to play." However, after talking about it he realized that the last time I was a player in a Shadowrun game was the day that SR3 first arrived at our local game store. I might have convinced him that its time for someone else to give it a try.



As was stated above, unless there is a contract that spells out different clauses and protections for employees. Government office jobs are almost all universally part of a union which has these clauses and protections. Violation of the union contract can be a reason for a settlement even if under general law the state is "at-will" employment.

Hence the vaguness. My speculation (this is a speculation thread after all) is that it will be for a year, with an option to extend it on an annualized basis. That way they don't have to renegotiate every few years. At least that is what my business sense tells me.

I would guess it's until after the con season, or three years. Contracts aren't something you want to mess with often. Either they are still on the hook and Topps is getting what they want out of IMR before they collapse, or they fully trust Coleman and crew and the future is now.

Isn't Friday court day???
Anybody in Seattle who can go?

I went to the 2 minute hearing last month and I am curious on what is going to happen at the pre-trial hearing.
I would love an update before someone purchases the court report(think they can?) & posts it.
This seem like much better info than much of what has been posted and talked about lately. I guess it is all Speculation thou, of course....

Rojo

Well, I have been called a bit strange since, honestly, I love character generation. I have been known to just sit down and make character after character with no intention
of ever playing them. I tell my players it is so I can try and break the chargen system...but, that is not really why. Heck, honestly, I have been nothing but GMing so long,
I am not sure I can actually be a player anymore....that would require me focusing too much on one character!

Me too. Hardly perfect, but very good.

I completely understand this. Sometimes though there is a concept that comes along that I don't want to use as an NPC. It just feels like something I'd rather put more effort into it.

I also think they give me hope that one day I won't have to do all the heavy lifting for there to be a game, if you know what I mean.

I'm tied up in the office stupid contract

Try working in the Government or any highly political, organization.


I've worked places where lying was required. Specifically, in a classified environment, your answers to many "normal" questions are either a lie or no answer (which could be considered a lie).

-M&P

Dude, let me say it again.

I *love* Shadowrun.

I've loved the game since it first came out. I can still remember buying the first book, at Ralph's Toys in Northgate Mall, a mom-and-pop operation that is sadly gone forever. I still *have* that first book, pages falling out and all, with one special addition: Jordan Wiseman's autograph. I still reference my original copy of Harlequin when I want refresher points on how to GM. Method and Tete have both gamed with me, and they'll say that despite my many faults as a player and as a GM, I truly, truly have a passion for Shadowrun.

So, what have I learned in the last twenty-one years? Among other things, it's that sometimes you have to give up what you love in order to make it better. I have a daughter-- someday, she will grow up, and I'll need to let go of her so she can become a better person on her own. Games can be that way as well. If giving up Shadowrun is the only way to make it better, then that's what love will lead us to do. Blindly buying up product because it's got "Shadowrun" stamped on it is not love, it's selfishness; and it won't help make for a better game.

I'll accept that my situation may not be the norm... but it's how things work from my perspective. I've run for (basically) the same group for about 14 years. Most of them haven't played in any games other than those I've run in that time. They *love* Shadowrun, but we'll find a game that gets us our near-future grit elsewhere. The quality of the campaign is far more important than the system used to run it. They could set up another game, but their game time is limited and so far we've had excellent chemistry. I'm blessed with good players, and they've enjoyed (most) of my campaigns.

I do.

But you and several other posters are choosing to misinterpret the meaning of my post. It was in response to a poster who was aghast that JH would have the nerve to kick AH out of the freelancer forums for his unprofessional behavior. It was the right call by Hardy, all the way.

At this point, the people behind Eclipse Phase, Posthuman Studios, are no longer with Catalyst. They've signed on with Sandstorm as their new publisher, which is a startup publisher made up of former CGL employees. So it looks like they're probably in good hands and Posthuman is moving forward with new EP material, including a second, revised printing of the rulebook.

<sarcasm tag>
Ohh yeah! Try working on a massively successful Open Source Game. That will learn you.
</sarcasm tag>

I think your beating your head against a wall that wont give, Taharqa. I don't see anyone moving out of their trenches in these threads.


BlueMax

You are not alone Catadmin... I love the 4th Edition of Hero System... Never had the money to buy 5th and 6th edition though...

Keep the Faith

JH doesn't have a problem working for LLC, whose unprofessional behaviour went far, far beyond voicing doubts about a schedule in a pointed way. At least where I come from, co-mingling money is not considered professional.

And I was afraid that I wouldn't read the term "co-mingling" before post #500.

People seem to forget the main issues when not regularily reminded what actually started this mess - the behaviour of the guys who run IMR. Namely not paying freelancers and co-mingling money.

Posting about how "Unprofessional" AH supposedly acted, and neglecting to mention how unprofessional the whole company was and likely still is run (see the mistakenly used draft from AH) is spin doctoring.

Of course, even though I'm sure that everyone who reads the 9th incarnation of this thread already knows this.

Assuming you are talking about me, I am aghast that JH would cut off his nose to spite his face in that manner.

By all means give AH the bullet but wait until after all his work is in print and the cash is in your pocket.

I would disagree, judging from some posts it seems as if they blame everyone else but LLC or Bills for the situation.

From having read all these threads it seems fairly obvious the LLC and Bills are the only ones to blame. AH acted unprofessionally and got fired, I don't find anything confusing about that either. As for JH, why he decided to say after all this is his personal choice and I think questioning his moral compass over this seems a bit out of place to me. As he has stated he is a man of faith and I am sure forgiveness is high on the list of values that have been distilled in him.

We don't know what is going on behind closed doors and maybe LLC has shown enough effort in trying to fix this to warrant JH's trust in him. Heck maybe the guy just has a family to feed, not all of us can afford to walk off our job's because the immoral companies or bosses we work for. Tiger Eyes' situation isn't really comparable as she was asked to commit straight fraud which would have made her liable in this mess so please don't think I was referring to that.

I don't think we have to see what went on behind closed doors though. I mean, the freelancers, worked for a company that had a long history of not paying them on time, right? At some point, they had to be writing new pieces, knowing the work they already turned in was not paid for, so they made a choice. Either they stop working and risk someone else picking up their work load or they work anyways and risk not getting paid for more work.

I don't know exactly what the Line Developer and other middle managers do, but in companies that I have worked for, my manager wasn't the one giving me a paycheck, so any complaints I had wouldn't be addressed by them. They would just continue to give me work and expect me to do it, or they would find someone else to work on it.

I guess what I'm saying is that I can't say it is only LLC and Bills to blame. The people working without getting paid allowed themselves to be walked on. They helped make a bad situation, even worse. Now, they may have had legitimate reasons to continue working without pay. I don't know how many of the freelancers are supporting families and the like, but I could see that if they weren't doing Shadowrun writing full-time, then they could afford to miss getting paid for months at a time and keep writing. And I could see those getting the majority of their income from Shadowrun freelancing, not wanting to withhold their work until they are paid, in fear that they would lose the opportunity to continue working. I think the ones that did leave had already made the decision that they could afford to walk away and do something else.

I mean, I know that I'd be willing to work for a poorly run company as long as I needed before finding another job. And once I found another job, while I might say how poorly run the company was and how I left due to my morals, I'd know that that wasn't the whole truth. It would factor into my decision to find something else, but I don't see myself ever leaving someplace for moral reason alone and hanging my family out to dry financially. That just doesn't make any sense to me.