Well I personally would not want to support LLC because my buddy's game company was brought down by one of the partners stealing money from the business. Having seen the hardship, stress, and anger that it caused him I would not want anyone else to have to have that happen to them. Seeing this happen now, to the company that publishes one of my favorite settings (and my friend's too), makes me think that LLC is the lowest of the low pond scum (remember he's allegedly been taking his family's money too!) and that I'd rather not give him any more opportunity. I also don't know the guy at all so I see no reason to forgive him even if he did seek repentence (which we haven't seen any indication of yet).

YMMV.

What is funny is I have never worked for an honest small business. The most honest business I worked for and even than I'm not saying paragons of virtue was a multi-billion dollar pharmaceutical wholesaler focused on cancer drugs.

The bankruptcy proceeding is showing as TERMINATED on PACER. I expect we'll hear more about this from Catalyst shortly.

Update: I spoke too soon. Someone fat fingered the docket and closed the case by accident. It's been re-opened, but some of the PACER status pages are still showing termination as the last update.

Most small businesses do - when you are faced with your clientele daily, you know that crossing them is going to spread quickly and shut you down. When the stakes get higher, when you get shareholders and have to meet earnings goals; those are the times when ethics start to blur in order to get that dollar in your wallet.

You assume that the only way a small business can be unethical is by screwing their clientele.

I sympathize with your stance. However, I cannot agree with it. Your proposed method of robbing LLC of opportunity to "questionably acquire" more also robs him of the opportunity to repay the company; to repay debts; to pay freelancers. The company needs money to move forward. While some may argue for the sale of the Coleman's estate, I doubt that would be enough with the consumer boycotting new products.
a
In my opinion, voting with your wallet hurts the people in the same situation as your friend, particularly at this stage where parties are trying to correct the situation.

I want the freelancers to get paid. If I was a little better at finishinrg projects, I'd try to be one (art; not really writing) ... I just cannot see any way withholding money for good products will accomplish that.

---
Cabral (Dghost from ShadowRN and Pixel from IRC)

Holy frick oldtimers out of the woodwork!

Indeed. Heya Pixel!

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? And since when is everyone working for/ownig a share in CGL guilty by association because LLC allegedly did things?


Would you rather have his company tank because customers would like to see his partner go down? Would that have made your buddy any happier, if the company could have been salvaged otherwise?

I personally feel no guilt in buying CGL products as I showed with my wallet by buying 9 books last week. If they don't make any money the freelancers will never get paid. If LLC is guilty of tax evasion or embezzlement, that is for the courts to decide. But for me it comes down to making sure I have the books in my possession to be able to teach my child the games I loved growing up as he grows up. I am not going to abandon the IP's I have loved for two decades because a couple guys at the company who happen to hold the publishing rights to the IP's are d-bags.

Agreed. I've played this game for nearly 20 years and want to play for another 20. I want this IP to survive. I don't want to reward anybody's bad behavior, and I want to be sure that people are fairly compensated for their work; but boycotting the company is not going to achieve either of those things. So I am still buying Shadowrun products. Hell, I'm even working on a freelance proposal right now--too many good writers are no longer associated with the company and some of us need to step up if there's going to be any product at all.

With respect, I don't see Loren ever paying back the money he took from the company. Not while he's drawing a paycheck, not in his lifetime. Hell, can you imagine how long it would take you to pay back $200k? If you paid back $1,000 a month you'd take about four years to pay that back (assuming no interest). Loren is supposed to have taken over three times that. CGL really can't wait for 12+ years to get that cash back. And LLC has declared bankruptcy before. I don't know how that sort of debt would work, but I wouldn't put it past him to try and do it again if he thought he could.

Maybe having him pay back via transfer of ownership of his house or something (which he then could rent from the company) would work? Other than such a scheme, no, it probably wouldn't.

He declared bankrupcy before? personal or with a company?

Or even easier, he could simply sell his stake in the company for the balance due to an investor. Even better if that investor is Topps, an IP holder who owns their own development studio almost always put out better product ie: Wizards owned by Hasbro or White Wolf owned by CCP (Crowd Control Productions makers of the oh so wonderful and overly addictive EvE Online).

Where'd you pull the $1000 a month from? Yeah, he might owe 3x the amount in your original example, but I'd suspect his income would be garnished or reduced by more than just $1000 a month.

Since CGL seems to be in the position at the moment of having the funds and support to move forward, they can take a longer view on the payback schedule. Though the sooner it's paid back, the better.

That is a very possible scenario, but based on past history, I would really prefer that the buyer not be Topps. The last time Wizards owned their own development studio (Wizkids), they stopped innovating a few years before closing up. Even Wizards looks to be going the way of Wizkids. They haven't put out a new game in years, and they've been gradually dropping product lines one by one. I suspect Wizards as we know it now won't last more than another year or two.

On the other hand, Topps is also not in the turmoil they were after buying WizKids, and the person tasked with overseeing IMR has experience in the RPG environment. However, the person Topps picked to oversee WizKids had Magic TG on his resume, so it can be hard to judge.

If it was CCP, we would at least get the worlds two greatest MMO's out of it

I think you are under a sad misaprehension about how much RPG industry people get paid, and how much of the subsequent discretionary budget he is likely to be able to hand over.

Then how do you plan on getting rid of the d-bags?

You make a statement every time you spend money. If you want to make a statement in favor of things like yacht races and luxury houses, then spend your money there.

In some thirty years of roleplaying, I've never gotten so attached to a game that I'd teach my child to support unethical business practices. There will always be RPGs to be bought, and I seriously doubt that waiting a few months or even years to buy a few books will bring down Shadowrun. There's a difference between sending a message and trying to bring down a company and IP.

Forgive me if this ground has been trod before in one of the previous threads... but doesn't alleged criminal behavior make this a situation that doesn't lend itself to bankruptcy? I think it would behoove him to adhere to any repayment plan he agrees to, at least until the statute of limitations expires. A repayment plan could include lots of things. Off the top of my head:

Cash payments of the sort you're considering.
Whatever the house is still worth.
His stake in CGL, which could be kept by the other owners or sold to bring on a new partner.
Any other assets he might have.
Any other assets he might be able to borrow.

If his actions were criminal, then his bargaining position is weak. Most people do anything they can to stay out of prison.

And ignored... so I don't get permabanned.

Personally, the politics don't mean crap to me when it comes to whether or not I'm going to be buying anymore products from CGL. It's going to be the quality of the product they produce. The best way for CGL to ensure they get my consumer dollar is to put out top-quality product. This means bringing in people who know and understand the setting and have a sincere passion for Shadowrun.

I've been reading and playing Shadowrun since I was 11 years old. I bought a copy of 2nd Ed. almost as soon as it rolled off the presses. The quality of writing from the authors, specifically Tom Dowd and Nigel Findley, hooked me. Shadowtech, Street Samurai Catalog, Universal Brotherhood, 2XS, Tir Tairngire...these books really struck a chord with me when I was younger, and I kept buying them and reading them up until just a couple of years ago (due to a lack of new product mostly...I was buying the core books and never reading them honestly, mostly by force of habit). However, I have 90% of the 1st through 3rd books and all the core 4th books. I really don't need a single scrap of paper more from Shadowrun to play to my heart's content. If there aren't any new books that I feel are up to the quality levels of those books I loved from the previous editions, I'm not going to bother buying them.

If CGL really wants my money? What they need to do is either repair the relationships with the freelancers they chased off or else make things right and scout new talent who have the same passion for the material. Talented people who are going to put the same care are attention to detail that the freelancers have been for the past two decades and change.

Make the month, make the quarter, make the year....

Passion is low on my list of priorities for a SR writer. I want a good rules writer and a good fluff writer. They can learn the setting, but passion does not make a poorly designed rule a good rule. I'm making no comments about past and current freelancers skills. But I don't care if they love it, loving it does not make it good. Skill makes it good. Tom Dowd and Nigel Findley loved the setting I'm sure, but that isn't what made there stuff good. There talent and skills is what made it good. There passion got them motivated to do it, and probably for less pay than they deserved. The next freelancer can hate the SR setting for all I care, if they write good rules I'm happy.

Getting rid of the d-bags? I don't work there that isn't my problem. I have my own d-bags at work to get rid of. I made my statement in favor of the IP (shadowrun and Battletech), I don't care what is happening within the company, nothing has been proven in court yet. Until it is, it is nothing but he said, she said.

To insinuate I am teaching my child unethical business by passing on games I love despite what the company who produces them does? Now your just all sorts of out of line., that is just below the belt. Besides your supporting a much worse corporation every time you turn on your iPod, boot up Windows, or do a Google search. You watch NBC? NBC is owned by GE who makes your lightbulbs as well as the jet engines for many of the drones and fighter planes we use to bomb people. Not to mention the comapny that makes the Bayer Aspirin (Bayer) and the BASF media (BASF) you use also produced Zyklon B which was the Nazi's favorite product (under the corporation name IB Farben). The list of corporations doing ridiculous things to kill the planet and / or control the masses is extensive and your going to get on your high horse about someone who may or may not have stolen less than 1 million. Hell if you turned the power on in your house today your a hypocrite.

With how the market is for P&P these days there is a very very fine line between making a statement and bringing down a company.

I am sure if you looked hard enough you would find some skeletons in Milton Bradly's closet. What you not going to let your kid play Monopoly or Candy Land now?

Well no, it's a terrible game.

More to the point, are you suggesting that you wouldn't be worried about apple if Steve jobs and every designer that had worked on the ipod left and were replaced by ex-microsoft employees?

If he doesn't, I will answer that one... Lets see... Nope, I couldn't care any less...

Keep the Faith

Have you ever read or watched something written by someone who didn't care versus someone who does? All the talent in the world will not replace that. Now, don't get me wrong, I'd rather talent and craft over passionate drivel (which is why I'm not writing), but you cannot replace passion.

Is this because

A) you don't care about apple as a company full stop, or

B) that you don't think the quality of apple's output would be affected

in the proposed hypothetical? I find it very difficult to belive that any company can manage a massive turnover of it's workbase without quality impacts. Those that do, such as EDS, rely on strong top down driven processes and quality control measures to drive consistency across the business.

However, we know that IMR does not have these mechanics in place extrinsic to their workforce. By relying on the intrinsic knowledge of your workforce (which IMR does) you are subject to issues if your workforce turns over (which it has).

I do not see how under this scenario you can conclude that product will not be impacted. We've seen it already - IMR was literally unable to deliver on a promise to remove specific contributions to the Corporate Guide despite specific assurances to do so.



It is funny. IMR has admitted themselves that they have not paid, or are significantly behind in paying a number of freelancers, hence the pulling of copyrights and the audit to ensure they have paid people. Given that, it's unlikely that their will be a purely finacial reward, and IMR is relying on other sources of motivation, such as passion. If there is less passion, it is probable that the quality of outcomes will be impacted.

I don't think there is anyone who worked on 1e left so your argument is invalid. Aslo, there are some ex MS employees out there like Robbie Bach that I don't think would miss a beat running Apple. But most importantly, there are not any Apple IP's I care enough about to support regardless of ownership. Everything they do someone else did first and or has done better. Just not marketed as well.

So you do not think that a company would be impacted if a huge percentage of their employees resigned? This is extremely puzzling, and flies in the face of all availible evidence. We know high turnovers results in low quality and low customer satisfaction, and this can only be mitigated by strong process controls within the company.

But IMR doesn't HAVE any process controls within the company.

Why do you think that the brtoad academic and professional concensus in this area is wrong?

I never said they wouldn't be effected. But to think SR will stop because some freelancers are gone is just idiotic. Were on edition 4 and owner 4 or so, and it hasn't stopped yet. Whatever left won't missed or will be replaced.

Hey guys. Since I got a job, it's been hard to keep up with the hobbies. Doesn't help that I have about two dozen... It seems to be easier now that I picked up an Evo comlink...

I really hit the ground running ... already made someone's ignore list. (Though I fear he thought I was slighting his friend, which was not my intention...)

Yes I have, and if they were good at there job it made it a good movie or whatever. Talent replaces a lot more than passion ever will. In a perfect world you will sometimes have the full package. For rules sometimes I think not having a passion on the subject is an asset. I don't want someone passionate about SR when designing rules I want the clear headed and dispassionate. Passionate people have favorites, passionate people don't care about certain parts of the game, passionate people care more about what they want the game to be instead on what the game should be in order to be a better game. Some people can turn that off and work dispassionately when needed but not everyone is wired that way. For rules give me the people who's passion is doing a good job but don't have any really strong feelings on the game.

Now you're taking things personal. Calm down.

And for the record, I don't own a TV, IPod, or jet plane. I do use Windows, but use Android a lot more. I take it you're a Linux user, then?


You're contradicting yourself. Earlier you said:


Now, I don't know if you've read much philosophy. But I believe it was Thoreau who said that we should be choosy about our passions. I'm passionate about Shadowrun. I have a love for the game that you'd never understand. And because I love the game, I want to make sure the line is being taken care of-- handled by experts, handled with care, handled with love. Because of that, I want Shadowrun to be in the hands of great writers: writers with passion and talent, but also perserverence and longevity. I've done professional writing. Anyone can hand in a great paragraph. Being able to steadily churn out great work, year after year? That goes beyond talent.

Do I want Shadowrun in the hands of people who'll use up writers left and right? Do you? Hell no. You want quality work, year after year. And that's what some of the ex-freelancers managed to deliver. Now, how do I tell the company that I want those freelancers back, instead of bringing in new talent, wringing them dry, and grabbing more like some hungry giant? I have to send a message, and the biggest voice I have is my wallet. You claim to have a passion for Shadowrun-- how can you support people treating the line writers this way?


I disagree. Passion powers the path to perfection, and we want perfection. How many threads here have someone bitching about something in SR that isn't perfect? Only the passionate will have the energy to make things perfect.

Fixed that for ya.

If you're interested and can find a copy you should give Germany's Master Plan - The Story of an Industrial Offensive (Borkin and Welsh, 1943) a read, fascinating stuff.

Passion without temperance creates games like F.A.T.A.L. It does not make perfection.

I thought I was pretty clear in what I said. Either anyone who has made any statement might not be entirely honest, and to compound that, regardless of their honesty, their perception of what actually happened may be based on miss-communication. That means that, for any issue in this debacle, what we're hearing, as opposed to what actually happened, could be one party involved lying outright, not being completely honest and hiding information, having a recollection of events that differs from actually happened, thinking another party meant one thing when they actually meant something else, and of course the last possibility, everything actually occurred how that party stated. That's a lot of possibilities, and only two of them require the party to actually lie, and one one other requires "coloring/spinning the truth."

Why is that paragraph so long? Because I don't want you jumping up and screaming, "Furluge said Tiger Eyes is a big fat liar! I heard him say it. Boo! Hiss!" I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that I don't know Tiger Eyes, though this statement applies to Jason, Bobby, and anyone else who's ever been involved in any part of all this and has said anything regarding the events that occurred, and therefore I have no frame of reference to believe they're being honest or dishonest, and regardless if they are honest or not I have no way of knowing if their information is accurate. So, there you have it. I don't know exactly what happened. The only things I can safely say for certain did happen is the co-mingling of funds and difficulty paying freelancers, both things that CGL has admitted to. (Because let's face it, you don't admit to bad stuff you didn't do.) Everything else about "What really happened" is still unconfirmed.



Oh we stopped doing that ages ago. Now you're guilty once accused unless you're proven innocent. And since trials don't declare you innocent you're assumed guilty for eternity. Just ask The Ramseys how that works.

You say that as if FanPro and FASA would have had substantially higher ethical standards than CGL. FanPro especially left a lot of bills forever unpaid when it tanked. FASA too, I think. Both were famously late in paying for work published to boot.


Woot for mob justice and acting based on half-truths!

So do you think Tiger eyes was asked to falsify royalty reports or not?

There is no third answer - 'Tiger eyes is not a credible source' is the same as 'no' in this situation. Yes, it really is that black and white.

There is, as he said, no black and white in this, even if you want it so much.

Saying "Things may be insinuated and/or misunderstood" does not mean the same as no. "I do not know" also is a viable answer. As much as believers would like it, the world is not binary.

Co-mingling of money, co-mingling of money! *shakes fists*

Lol, thanks, I was just typing fast to get that out of my head before I fell asleep.

This isn't what I said or what I'm saying. I'm not going to get into a long, drawn out argument here - I don't think it would benefit anyone. If you want to discuss this at length, feel free to PM me. My original post isn't relevant to you, and that's cool. I was speaking to those to whom it would have relevance.

I was calm but it was still rather offensive.



You don't need to own a jet plane to support GE, you just need to turn on a PC monitor, blender, oven, refrigerator, clothes dryer, or one of the millions of things GE subsidiaries make. And lets' not bother getting into the business practices of the corporation who made your PC monitor.




That actually isn't a contradiction. As stated the IP's have had several owners, Catalyst could be effected by a boycott, especially since they need liquid funds right now to get things to print to hold the ship together. My point was that the license won't die with CGL as it didn't with FASA or FanPro.



For starters I think you must be equating post count or date joined on Dumpshock when gauging my love for the game. No need to turn this into a swinging johnson contest over nerd love, I have been a huge SR and BT fan for twenty years now.



Would you rather see sub-par material or see SR drop out of print entirely?

Actually, there is. There is also "Tiger Eyes credibility is not beyond reproach and I cannot draw conclusions based upon her statements."

Personally, considering the general professionalism I've seen in her posts, not to mention the conviction voiced on her behalf by friends and former coworkers, I am fairly convinced of her trustworthiness. However, that is a decision for each of us to make.

Assuming that there are only two possible answers to a question is a common fallacy of logic. (See false dilemma)

Bazinga!

I think the biggest problem for CGL going forward if it keeps the licenses is that it is primarily a BT vehicle. Judging from their often angry and hurt posts in this thread I think it is safe to say that the "replacements" do love SR. However, SR definitely has the feel of a red-headed stepchild. SR and BT are packaged together because they always have been so LLC and RB picked it up along with their golden child -- BT. The passion for SR at the highest levels is dimmed in comparison.

I do have a fondness for BT for getting me into TT gaming. There is strong nostalgia whenever I look at stuff for it. But I've grown up and my tastes in games have changed (Flames of War is awesome). Clickytech was the last failed attempt by a dying game to reclaim popularity in my corner of the world. Several old Avalon Hill games get more play at the local society and the players are friendlier and more willing to teach new blood than the singular BT table is.

Your first line is exactly the same as saying 'Tiger eyes is not a credible source' except with more words.

Saying that you don't believe someone because they lack credibility, is still saying you don't believe them. Also your link is broken.

I really get a splinter under my fingernails when someone tries to muddy the waters like this.



Some questions do have yes/no answers and are in fact black or white.

Another possibility, there were differences over how and what accounting procedures with different viewpoints as to what constitutes income for purposes of royalties. Seems obvious that all monies made (aka revenue) off the IP should go towards the topps royalty payment, but that assumes that it is spelled out exactly in that manner. If it based off profits and not revenue then you get into a whole different ball game. Do you base it off of profit of each item or the line as a whole? This is where the gray areas come up and how one is supposed to account for it.

I'm not saying LLC is innocent, nor am I saying he is guilty as sin. I just want to point out that there are two sides to this story and we don't know all the details.