Correct. I didn't want to bring up that Gas and Diesel are Fungible.

BlueMax

I was hoping we had left this particular accusation behind, but here it is again. I've tried to take care of it in PMs the last time it came up, but apparently that didn't work. So let me be absolutely clear on what happened. I was discussing the upcoming release schedule. I said books would be coming out in the following order: Dawn of the Artifacts 2, Corporate Guide, Almanac, War!, Attitude, [unannounced future product], first Horizon adventure, Spy Games. In reality, here's what happened. Dawn of the Artifacts 2 was released. Corporate Guide has been electronically released and is at the printers. Almanac will follow next. Then War!. Then Attitude. Now, unannounced future product will be delayed, but I got the first five right, and the remainders are basically in the right order. What I said was going to happen, happened. Yet somehow me saying it was going to happen that way was dishonest. I'm not sure how that can be.

Bobby is free to have disagreements with me on matters of opinion, and he can think I don't know enough about Shadowrun, and he can not like my writing, and that's all fine. But I take accusations of dishonesty seriously, and I would appreciate it if this one, which has been repeated multiple times, did not recur.

Jason H.

To change the topic just a bit:



Using a second account to get around a board suspension so that you can continue personal attacks makes it personal to us. It also stacks up those attacks on your primary account, in addition to the TOS violation for multiple accounts. If you get suspended, take a walk, take a breath and stay away until your suspension is over.. Otherwise days becomes weeks.

I must admit I'm impressed and surprised it took this long for the sock puppets to appear.

Alright, enough already.

You are going to be hearing that accusation for the rest of your life. You banned Bobby from the freelancer forums for it and precipitated a massive shit-storm.

Whether or not he was right to accuse you of dissembling nobody can deny that he had good reason to believe that the future release schedule might be in jeopardy. At that point it looked to most of the world that CGL might be days from following FASA and Fanpro into oblivion. He also had good reason to suggest that promises of payment for freelance work might not be honoured. Is every single SR and BT freelancer currently up to date? As CGL faces possible bankruptcy on Friday it is entirely within the bounds of possibility that some of those freelancers may never be paid.

Whether you believed yourself to be telling the truth is not relevant. Bobby had good reason to doubt the veracity of your statements and your reaction to that has ensured that you'll be hearing about it indefinitely.

I know everyone has an axe to grind, an opinion and a side. We're just losing patience quickly with it all. Personally, the flame bait that has been drawn to the board over the last few months from both sides is the most frustrating to me. Its bad enough when the people with some history here go to war but the influx of new members seeking nothing more than to sling poo is getting real old.

Oh the dead horse has been beat to a fine paste by now. Old is an understatement.

And continuing to buy from them just helps their case further. I never claimed it was a win-win situation; only that if you buy from someone, you're supporting their policies.


There are thousands of people on Dumpshock alone, but very few of those are active posters. Combine that with the huge number of potential Shadowrun players on RPG.net, we can assume that thousands of people know. Of those, maybe 5000 care about it at all, and maybe 10% care enough to stop buying. So, across the nation, maybe 500 people, tops. That's still a noticeable dent in sales.

Really nice avoidance of what I actually said, Cain. My point wasn't that the dollar spent is a vote. There's no debating that. My point was your initial post seemed to indicate that the voter's actual motivations for buying said product was a desire to support the poor management. I understanding voting with your money. I don't understanding casting aspersions on some unknown buyer's motivations for buying the product (which I would largely guess boil down to "I liked the book"). Especially when there are, and will be, fans out there who have no idea of everything going on here. They'll keep buying product. Their motivations for doing so have nothing to do with CGL, or heck, even knowledge of what the heck has gone on.

So speculators, does anyone have any links to any further documents filed in relation to the bankruptcy hearing on Friday?

Will DSF's own travelling reporter be in attendance this time?

Well, if the drain on resources was so bad that it was resulting in production delays, part of the reason for a sudden surge of products could be a result of CGL getting its books in order, or at least has managed to get some additional source of funding to help get things back on track.

First off, I confess to hyperbole. No, wanting Loren L. Coleman to have a nice house is not the only reason to buy a CGL product. But it is an unintended consequence.

As far as fans not knowing, that's the point of the internet and word-of-mouth. Spread the word, and let people make up their own minds. Most every Shadowrun fan I've met has been via the internet; a game with a Gibsonian Matrix will likely have a more tech-savvy game base.

Buy gas pretty much anywhere and you're supporting poor environmental policies. BP was not necessarily uniquely positioned to have this happen, just the first to have it happen.

To bring it back to CGL's situation, getting real information about the situation and how the company has or hasn't changed its ways, as well as information about your options, and then make a decision for yourself is really the best thing to do.

I chose BP because it's all over the news right now. Otherwise I would have mentioned the Exxon Valdez.

But the fact is, your money is your voice. No matter how much we jones for it, we don't really require the latest Shadowrun product. If you don't like what CGL is doing, then don't buy their stuff. The best thing to do, if you want to speak up, is to speak from your wallet.

Yeah, oil isn't really the best example. Every consumer-side gas station just gets their oil from whoever is supplying it cheapest. They are literally interchangeable by the time you get access to it.

Cain,
under what circumstances would you say it would be acceptable to buy from CGL again?

Me, personally? I am going to buy from them, because I like Shadowrun and Battletech, and
am looking forward to Leviathans. I like that, while they might not be the most forthcoming on
details, Randall, Herb, Ben, and Jason are more involved with the community then any other
game company I have seen. I could care less about Coleman because I have never had any
interaction with him. Sure, I would love to know who their new Operations Manager is, as I had
gone to Vairdic(aka David Stansel-Garner) many a times in the past when my FLGS was having issues
getting distributors to send Shadowrun or Battletech product. I am giving Catalyst the chance to
turn around. I know what I expect to be going on, since it is what I would do, but I have no idea
if that is going on. I do not know if their new Operations Manager is given an Operational Budget to
pay freelancers, printers, artists, and salaries. I expect that is what is happening, though, because that
is what I would do. I do not see Ancient History, Demonseed Elite, Patrick Goodman, or even Jason Hardy
as being "essential to shadowrun." All I care about is the usability of the product. NOTE: I have seen wonderful,
high quality books for other systems that were utterly useless, and poor quality books that were so usable, I still
pull them out to this day. So, quality of the product is not necessarily important to me.

Sorry about that, my mistake. Didn't check the original source...

Lars

Yes, books. To the freelancers, that's part of the schedule that really matters, as their payments come due 30 days after the physical book is published.


Released, and sold to the public before the matter of Jen's hold on her copyrighted material was resolved. Kept off shelves for like what, over a month, until you actually had the rights for the material you wanted to sell?


While PDFs might be part of an overall "Release Schedule", from the perspective of one freelancer telling another that they might not get paid in as timely of a manner that the schedule suggests, its the publication date on the book that counts. Furthermore, this PDF was released to the public with material that was not free and clear from a copyright standpoint. True, it was corrected with an updated PDF when the matter was pointed out, but that means that the earliest that the printer could have started making the books is when the updated PDF was made available.


It's a bit premature to say you've gotten the first five right, seeing as only the first two of those five have actually been released in any format. Unless you're willing to give us firm street dates on Almanac, War!, and Attitude at this time?


So, out of 8 products, which would each have a PDF release and a book publication date, 3 of those 16 (two PDFs and one book) have actually been met. Of those three, two were out the door before they were ready from a copyright standpoint. From where I'm sitting, I'd say it's too soon to tell whether the release schedule was overly optimistic or not.

That's why I didn't put a date on the books when I mentioned the order. I knew there were problems--I knew we would have to get people paid off to get some books out the door, and I knew we would need money for printing. But there were efforts going on to address those problems. Also, other than the e-fiction line, the plan was to get books to the printer around the same time they were released electronically. We intend to keep having hard copy books coming out, and as I mentioned two books (one of which has not yet been released electronically) are at the printers currently.

I don't have firm street dates, but Corp Guide is out, Almanac is being printed, and War and Attitude will follow. I now that freelancers had been burned before, and I can understand them being wary of information. But there's considerable difference between wondering if a schedule is overly optimistic, and out-and-out, and repeatedly, accusing me of lying for saying that releases are going to come out in the order that, to this point, has been followed.

Jason H.

In PDF only so far.


It is? Did it just go to the printers then? (In your post earlier this morning, Corp Guide is the only one you listed as "at the printers".)




And I've always gotten the impression from AH's posts that his warnings were about the former, and not the latter.

That's funny because the read I keep getting from AH's posts is he thought his position with the company was so important that he could call his boss an *expletive* liar behind his back and think that nothing would come of it if it got back to him. Frankly I'm also pretty sure that statement didn't happen in a total vacuum. Now lets be honest with ourselves, how well would that go over at most of our day jobs?

At this point the only thing AH's got over any other disgruntled employee is a venue and a following.

Ex-freelancer, Lurker. Not employee.

At the time Jason posted his list, several freelancers had withdrawn their drafts pending being paid. No payments had as yet gone out. Attitude did not even have a full complement of first drafts in (hell, I wasn't sure the entire book was assigned at that point), War! and the Horizon adventures both needed a lot of work still. Jason completely neglected ebooks, including the couple that were in development at the time - and that's also not counting a couple other products he hasn't mentioned. His schedule was bullshit. That Corp Guide was "released" before 6WA is a matter of luck, not planning and foresight.

So yes, I thought Jason was being dishonest with his proposed schedule. It was incomplete and neglected what I considered to be several vital factors (i.e. people had not yet been paid so their material could not be released, and some books were more complete but set to be released after books that hadn't been written yet).

I was aware of the various circumstances when I mentioned the schedules. The reason I made the schedule the way I did was that I was aware of plans to deal with various circumstances. It wasn't "luck" that made Corp Guide come out--we had a plan for it to come out when I mentioned the schedule, and the plan worked out. So the book has been released electronically and is at the printers. You can call the pipeline what you'd like, but I'd just like to call it what it has been to this point: accurate.

Here's the main difference--AH thought I was ignoring circumstances, like people not being paid. I wasn't. I was aware of them. But I was also aware, as AH was not, of plans to deal with them--plans that have since come to fruition.

Re: Runner Paul's earlier question: Yes, the Almanac is in the hands of a printer.

Jason H.

@Jason: Does 6WA need color plates? One of the tweets in the CGL stream made it sound as if it was going overseas to print. If so, is the longer time to retail why we can't buy it in PDF yet?

Yeah, I don't believe you. Your schedule was released, what, 21 March? You didn't announce CGL cutting checks for freelancers until 4 April - and that's after Midnight was "accidentally" shipped.

Can't you two just take it private already? It's got no relevance to what's going on here, and it's really old to see this come up for the sixth or seventh time now. Get on with your lives.

QFT. I consider you both friends. Please stop.

I think the time saved by cutting corners, like not bothering to work up a Jackpoint Login page (even though it's been a staple of non-adventure SR4 releases up to this point), or giving the final layout a thorough once-over to make sure that it doesn't contain material that the company is obligated not to use had to be a factor as well.

Yup.

As for other matters, I've said what I have to say. I take accusations of dishonesty by me seriously, which is why I responded, but I have no wish to further derail the thread.

Jason H.

Like I already said, expecting him to stop bringing it up is foolish. People will be asking him why he quit forever and the answer will always be that he accused you of lying and not being in a position to pay the freelancers.

The most spectacular setback the line and release schedule has suffered in the last three months is you letting your personal feelings get the better of you and going off the deep end about a private conversation that you should never have been party to.

Had you swallowed your pride and dealt with the problem any other way Corporate Guide, 6WA and all the others would have been released weeks or months ago. All that cash from PDF sales would have been on CGL's balance sheet by now. All that cash could have been used to print product.

The fact of the matter is that come Friday you will be rolling the dice in Court to see if CGL continues to exist. You would be rolling a shit load more of them if you could have kept your personal feelings about Bobby's behaviour personal and done your job as Line Developer, which is to get frakking product out the door.

On the subject of the release schedule, would you still have been able to release what you have if Bobby had forced you to pulp Vice? Seems to me that there is a good likelihood that you would have been proved wrong had Bobby not chosen to cut you some slack.

Really? Really? I feel like there is at least a little bit of circular logic going on here.

I think I've made it very clear at this point that my opinion on Jason's honesty is just that: my opinion. Short of posting the actual freelancer conversation Jason posited the schedule for, I think we've got as many facts of the matter out there as there are. Whether or not he was being dishonest you can judge from his statements and his actions for yourself.

Czich: Do you really think that in three years from now if he CGL keeps the license, which despite your rolling the dice idea is looking fairly solid, that anyone will know AH from Bob? Especially if he carries through on his tantrum, sells all his books and never does Shadowrun again?

Bobby made the decision to pull his copyrights, not Jason. Jason made the decision to pull Bobby from the freelancer boards after he undercut him and called him a liar. Again I ask you, how well do you think that would go over where you work?

There's a wonderful German word for what I think motivated Jason to go forth with this schedule: Zweckoptimismus.

It means a demonstratively exercised optimism to show others things aren't nearly as dreary as they may look, and intends to inspire optimism in others, despite high to insurmountable odds.

Thanks. I mean that. That's an awesome word to know.

BlueMax

It's a fair cop. I'm generally optimistic, though I try to keep myself as grounded as possible.

Jason H.

Thats ridiculous. JH has been nothing but professional in his communications on this board, despite being constantly baited by AH, whose own unprofessional behavior is without question.

Hyperbole, much?

A pretrial conference is a routine proceeding that's meant to streamline a case by getting some agreement about the issues that should control the outcome, setting a discovery and hearing schedule, and so on. Check FRCP 16(a) for the reasons pretrial conferences are held and FRCP 16[c](2) for a list of things judges are encouraged to considered at pretrial conferences. Pending motions would normally be dispensed with at the conference, but there aren't any popping up on PACER and it's unlikely that anything of legal consequence will happen on Friday. I expect that it will be largely administrative, which is why I've not renewed my previous offer to cover gas/lunch for anyone attending and reporting.

P.S. The board's automatically converting c's in parenthesis to ©. What a pain!

I agree. I enjoy working with Bobby a great deal, but I am beyond tired of that particular discussion. It's a personal issue between the two of them and it doesn't need to keep getting dragged into these threads.

Hell, at least Bobby knows why he was removed from the freelancer forums. To this day, I still don't know why I was.

Really? Really? Do you actually have some sort of counter-point to make?




Ridiculous? How? JH booted AH from the freelancer forum because he didn't like what had been said in a private conversation.

End result? Four, five or so books are held indefinitely until material can be rewritten from scratch, proofed, laid out etc.

In the short term I suppose that didn't matter. It's not like CGL needed the money....



Is there a finite chance that Friday's hearing will eventually result in CGL entering involuntary bankruptcy?

Would this probability be smaller if CGL had more frakking cash on hand?

Hyperbole?

CGL's dire straits can be blamed chiefly on one man, imho, and that man is LLC.

I don't know how anti-CGLers, if you allow me generalize, can praise the sanctity of private communication and then not even bat an eyelash when former freelancers start disgorging material leaked to them knowing full well that the content was intended to be kept private. Many freelancers have justifiably been upset with their inability to trust CGL. If trust is fundamental to operating, why would you start slinging character slurs behind someone's back on limited knowledge? How is that any better? Ad hominem certainly isn't necessary to express your reservations about a projected release schedule.

[not addressing your point, not sure I understood it]

I was being ironic when I pointed out the private nature of the conversation that got AH canned.

I spent most of the day trawling through threads 1-5 to find the relevant exchange. In the process I was once again exposed to the vicious attacks made by pro-CGLers on those that had leaked Randall's private email to the free-lancers.

I found it an amusing counter-point that AH's woes started when a private communique was leaked to Jason.

ps

Damn I'm fed up with the three character limit on searches. IRC? Log? Waaaahhhhrrgrbbblllll.....

I have been a lurker for an awfully longtime and I thought it was time ONE: the AH vs. JMH thing its he said she said no neutral party exists to the events in question let it die gentlemen. TWO: I susupect mr bills is between a rock and a hard place if he does whats arguably morally right he cuts his own throat financially speaking. I am guessing he took the less moral more realistic view and is trying to salvage things before he loses it all. Does he like his choices I doubt it but there isn't exactly a third I can see. If LLC acted as indicated it is in the very least ethically questionable. I have know sympathy for him at all as for mr bills ask yourself what you would do in his shoes? Blackwulf

Privacy is key and only works if both parties have a high level of trust. Bobby definitely felt that trust was breached, and decided to make things public because he felt he had no other recourse. What other options do you think would have been better? Some people can take a good shafting, and others stand up to injustice.

Bobby is passionate about what he works on. When something threatens you will do drastic things to try and protect it. There are many stages to grieving, anger, denial, depression, acceptance. I would have done the same thing given the situation, no matter how unprofessional it seemed. When you have no control, the only fight you have is a public one.

If I was a line developer I would realize what a workhorse and asset a passionate, hyper-productive writer is. I would do my best to work with them instead of butting heads. Looking for win-wins instead of compromises and confrontation. Looks like mismanagement was also a key in bringing the situation to where it is.

I also believe that it was for the benefit of others as a warning sign, that Bobby brought this out. The very sad thing is that it makes the Shadowrun line suffer. We would not be here at all, if things were handled correctly from the beginning.

End the end, I would hope that Bobby and JH would look to trying to resolve this through a mediator.

Would you also realize that it is a liability to work with someone who is trying to undermine you at every turn? Someone who is trying to undermine other workers confidence in you? As someone else pointed out earlier, do you really think this kind of shit would be tolerated at your workplace?

Context makes a world of difference. To me, letting a fellow freelancer know that, "hey this schedule doesn't seem likely, he's making it look good, so don't expect your payment to come in at a certain time", is worlds different from your description. Regardless of what management would like, employees deciphering their message and chatting about it is par for the course everywhere I've worked. IMHO, a manager can't get that worked up over what amounts to an employee bull-session... especially when it's about what amounts to "will we actually get cut a paycheque this week?"

Now, I don't think we know or will know exactly what the conversation looked like, but I definitely want to stand up for employees' right to complain about what they perceive as bad management!

If that someone can knock your production schedule on shit that is ready to ship back by three months? If you're already in financial difficulty?

You ship the damn product and shit-can the frakker later.

Duh.

In the interests of balance he was a lot less polite and a lot more direct than that.

I agree entirely with the rest of your post.

So wait so much of this debate has been over integrity and consequences. Jason shows some personal and professional integrity over a potential short term gain and it's bad? Besides once again AH was taking steps to undermine the line developer and moving behind his back, basically acting untrustworthy. Jason removed him from a position where he had access to further use company resources to undercut him. An action that seems well justified in light of AH's further actions and vitrol.

Innocence is in short supply around these parts but you want to Armchair general interpersonal relations that happened months ago based on specific events that happened at the time that we're not entirely privy to all the fact.

I've seen people throw this around like is something special about Ancient History.

Yet I have not see anyone phrase Jason's action as a passionate defense of what works on.

From there own words Jason and Bobby butted heads alot, which is typical of passionate people. However they have a disagreement on how that gets expressed, and they could not reconcile. Given that Jason is/was the boss it is in no way surprising this is how it fell out.