For the record, in order for a slander or libel suit to be successful, the plaintiff must prove via preponderance of evidence:

1) The statements made were known by the defendant to be false.
2) A reasonable person may believe them to be true.
3) The defendant must have a personal reason to make the statements.
4) The plaintiff must have suffered damages or will potentially suffer damages from the actions of the plaintiff.

You can't be held liable for slander/libel if you believe you're telling the truth, if you're making up something that is obviously false (see Falwell v Flint for a well-publicized example of that one), if there is no personal gain or grudge for the statements (how National Enquirer and all the other tabloids can print whatever they want but Joan Rivers won her suit against a reporter as that reporter had a personal grudge), and you can't be held liable for damages if no damages were caused.

That's why libel and slander suits in the US are so rare. England's laws, however, make it much easier to collect damages. That's why some organizations *COUGH*SCIENTOLOGY*COUGH* love to sue in England when they know they couldn't win a case in the US.

Weeks and months went past after Jen made those accusations before said litigation was started. There was no reason not to rebut her claims in that time. As said claims were a PR disaster there was every reason to step up and actively refute them.

You are looking for reasons to excuse the behaviour. I have no doubt you are creative enough to find as many as you need to.




Did many of these lynch mobs insist on long periods of inaction because the facts weren't certain?

No?

In which case the problem that I have ignored I have ignored because it is not pertinent and is merely another example of you attempting to divert attention away from the Emperor's lack of apparel.

I didn't say LLC is a crook and we ought to string him up. I said it seems very likely that LLC is a crook and it would be prudent not to leave your wallet lying around in his house.

What are the damages though? "A dozen or so people on a couple of gaming forums said they will never buy our products again, Your Honor. Sure, we've gotten preorders from half of them for our new products, but still, she owes us $200 in lost revenues!"

And three IP's and whatever projected revenue they had for the remainder of their contracts.

The transition of the IP's was not a result of Jennifer exercising her right to leave the company, though.

Keep the Faith

I am just speculating. I though that is what this thread is about.

But going by what you just said, I am sure other people here are creative enough to make the other side look as bad as possible, maybe fraudulent even . Remember believe nothing that you hear and only half of what you see.

And you are positive all of the different elements aren't interrelated how?

We at Posthuman had made the decision to sever our contract with Catalyst, based on the breaches of it, before we had any idea that Sandstorm existed or would exist. We were certain we would have multiple publishers interested in Eclipse Phase and our other projects, or that we could publish ourselves if we didn't find a partnership that we felt suitable.

Yes you are speculating.

Speculating, yet again, that if any doubt at all can be manufactured that we should all just sit here quietly and make like good little sheep regardless of the irreparable damage that might be going on.

Go back to sleep America, go back to sleep. Here is American Gladiators. Go back to sleep....

This thread has reached a level of pointless insane "discussion" at which real news don't matter any more.

*mumbles* Co-mingling of money.... boycott.... copyright... law... fraud... support of unethical companies... jerking over pointless definitions... did I mention co-mingling of money...

I honestly can't wait man. Looking for your game is how I found out about this mess in the first place, I have been reading the free pdf (very cool that you all did that btw) and I cannot wait to buy a hard copy. Hint hint, nudge nudge,

I have already stated that I am just speculating and talking out of my rear, I do know enough to attempt to make a judgment and I don't pretend to. I was just keeping this thread entertaining.

See Adam's Post above...

Keep the Faith

ROFL it is titled 'Speculation', why would you have ever thought news would matter. Make a 'CGL News' thread because CGL certainty isn't updating theirs.

Hard copy of the Eclipse Phase core rulebook is available: http://eclipsephase.com/eclipse-phase-reprint-shipping



Please bear in mind that for some of us, this business is how we pay our bills. Talking out of your rear _can_ have ill effects. Like, for example, distracting you from the fact that the EP core rulebook is available!

I looked over at the summary thread for the CGL situation, but I was wondering if there was a TL;DR version for those of us with clinically short attention spans?

In a nutshell:

Loren L. Coleman is rumored to have taken over $726,000 in improper draws from InMediaRes Productions LLC over the past three years, which is responsible for putting them in a financial pickle.

IMR admits that there was some commingling of funds by Loren; LLC remains in charge of the company.

WildFire LLC (Cthulutech, Poo) and Posthuman Studios LLC (Eclipse Phase), ceased business relations with IMR because IMR wasn't upholding their end of things.

Several of IMR's employees and Shadowrun freelancers left, for various reasons, including long-standing failure to pay freelancers. Other freelancers withheld copyrights on their works until they were paid. All of this has considerably delayed the Shadowrun production schedule.

Three of IMR's creditors, including WildFire LLC, have filed for Ch. 7 bankruptcy against IMR - that's involuntary liquidation if it goes through. The case is currently scheduled to be heard before a judge on August 9th.

There are suggestions that IMR's ownership paperwork has not been correctly submitted.

The BattleTech and Shadowrun licenses from Topps were due to expire; IMR has negotiated an extension, which has not been signed yet.

Quick correx: Poo is WildFire's game, not Posthuman's. If we had designed it, we would have called it "Shit!" -- we prefer real swearing.

Is that a subtle indictment of the game's quality or just a simple statement of fact?

Fix'd.

The important thing to remember is 'Graphs prepared by the other owners of the company that supported this assertion have been leaked'

Statement of fact; I've yet to play the game.

Note that there has been no announcement as to how long the extension is. It could be through the con season or it could be for several years. No one outside those negotiating know the specific terms.

In IMR's defense, it should be noted that they have hired an independent auditor to come in and "clean house" and have gone through a single publisher/distributor so that they will no longer be in charge of stocking hardcopies. This may or may not have been mandated by Topps or one of the creditors.

Also, CGL has stated that checks have gone out to the freelancers. I haven't heard any confirmation as to whether or not that's actually happened.

(For the record, I'm not defending CGL, IMR, LLC, or anyone else...just felt that all the facts should be included in the Cliff's Notes version of events.)

So we have LLC (person: CEO of IMR;Alleged not-good person for having allegedly (with supporting documentation in the form of emails) "commingled" (read: stolen. accidental or not, this is still actionable theft [needs legal fact-check?]) 3/4 of a million dollars in assets that belonged to the company.

IMR and Topps and CGL are related how? And Wildfire, Posthuman Studios (not person LLC's), and freelancers owe fealty to whom during this period?

They didn't stock hardcopies (except the Battleshop's stock) before -- they were at Alliance. Now they're at PSI.

(PSI _are_ awesome.)

I remember reading somewhere along the way that they had stocks for international and convention orders or something like that. I'm also brainfried from three vodkas and too many of these epic threads. Please note that Adam would know far more on this matter than I would, however, and I'll take his word over my own.

Titling a thread 'speculation' doesn't excuse people from posting inane comments and filling up posts with "rear" talking and pointless arguements. I keep waiting for this thread to show some redeeming value. So far we get one post every few pages where someone gets some decent info or someone new to the issue gets caught up. We've got 8 previous threads they can reference to do that, and I'm failing to see a point to more arguing over another thread or two or three.

If it were all simple discussion and a few debates/arguements here and there, we'd be more content with it. I personally think that it's great that people can come here and get a lot of information on what's going on. I'm not happy with the fact that most of the useful stuff is buried under nine threads of junk with a few gems here and there. I'm even less happy with the fact that we get daily Reports sent to us about one issue or another from this thread and its previous incarnations, and half the other reports we get tie back to this. Its redeeming value is fading, in my opinion at least.

At least, yeah. See graphs


Catalyst Game Labs is an imprint of IMR. WildFire and Posthuman used to be published through IMR, but are now going to be publishing through a new outfit, Sandstorm LLC, which employees some former IMR employees.

My understanding is that the Shadowrun freelancers who withheld their copyrights have been paid. Some continue to work for the company, others have chosen not to (or been booted). On the BattleTech side of the house, despite also being owed money, nobody has to the best of my knowledge withdrawn copyright in an effort to get paid.

Topps = Owner of the Intellectual Property for both Shadowrun and BattleTech (after a purchase of WizKids, which got the rights after FASA folded)
IMR = InMediaRes Productions. Company licensing the rights to Shadowrun and BattleTech from Topps
CGL = Catalyst Game Labs. The actual development company that is developing/writing/editing/etc. the Shadowrun and BattleTech books and games. Wholely-owned by IMR.

There's a LOT more going on here...basically, FASA created both games (as well as many, many others including licensed products) during their long run. Eventually, they folded and Jordon K Weisman took the rights to Shadowrun and BattleTech with him when he founded WizKids (famous for MageKnight and HeroClix). WizKids was then bought by Topps (who was bought by Michael "I Already Ruined Disney So Let's Ruin Everything Else Cool" Eisner (okay, had to let my biases known on that one) and his company National Entertainment Collectibles Association).

WizKids originally licensed both Shadowrun and BattleTech to a company called FanPro, which was an American subsidiary of Fantasy Productions (something German), the company which had been doing the German translations for both games. IMR received the license to product the fiction for BattleTech in 2003. When the licenses for the actual games expired, IMR aggressively pursued them and created CGL as a subsidiary to handle the actual development while IMR would be the "business end" and a shell company. They received the license in 2007 and it was set to expire sometime between yesterday and three weeks ago depending on which source you ask. The license, as stated above, is currently being extended for an unknown period possibly to be taken away at the end or possibly to be renewed under new terms.

Hopefully, that'll work as a primer on the history (and hopefully, I got all my facts right, but I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong).

FanPro LLC was a distinct company from Fantasy Productions GmbH, not a subsidiary.

Any distinction between IMR and CGL is fairly pointless: CGL is basically just a brand name. The checks say IMR.

NECA has no relation to Eisner, that I know of. Topps and NECA are distinct; Topps sold WizKids to NECA. WizKids was founded before FASA closed.

I am unaware of any litigation between Sandstorm and IMR. I don't believe the two have ever done business.

CGL never had the IPs that they lost. if they owned those IPs, it could not have been taken from them without an extended and likely very unpleasant legal battle with probably a very very very low chance of succeeding. additionally, there are very readily provable ways of showing that the companies which *did* own those IPs had other completely valid reasons of leaving (ie not getting paid in a timely fashion, which iirc CGL has also admitted to, to the point of even handing over physical product to cover some of their debt)


agreed.

Except for the rights to develop video games for both of those franchises, which FASACorp had granted to their spinoff company FASAInteractive prior to folding. FASAInteractive was then bought by Microsoft, who have since licensed those rights to Smith & Tinker, a company that FASA co-founder Jordan Weisman created after founding Alternate Reality Game producers 42 Entertainment, after founding WizKids.

Because some uninformed corporate lawyer might misconstrue character sheet assistance software as being a video game, it took an extended period of time for a license to be issued to Lone Wolf Development for them to add a Shadowrun module to their popular Hero Lab program. All the paperwork had to be examined extra carefully by multiple parties to ensure that IMR/CGL, acting on Topps behalf, wasn't licensing out to Lone Wolf something that Microsoft had given exclusive rights to Smith & Tinker to make.

AH, is there anything documenting how much of those draws, if not all, are unauthorized? It is my understanding that is still uncertain.

My understanding - and I may well be wrong - is that all draws from the company are to be done equally by all owners according to their percentage ownership, after a vote. That is, instead of regular dividends the owners decide together when and how much to take out of the company. If that is indeed the case, then every one of those draws is, I believe, irregular and unauthorized by the other owners.

So we have LLC (person: CEO of IMR/CGL;Alleged not-good person for having allegedly (with supporting documentation in the form of emails) "commingled" (read: stolen. accidental or not, this is still actionable theft [needs legal fact-check?]) 3/4 of a million dollars in assets that belonged to the company.

Topps owns the rights to Shadowrun, IMR/CGL did something bad with money, freelancers got screwed in the mean time, the Shadowrun licensing from Topps to IMR/CGL is still in place but is not currently in production, and may be suddenly revoked if the company folds on account of lawsuits.

Who is suing who again? I imagine Topps would have IMR/CGL on due diligence, and LLC (person) faces possible jail time for theft?

Is the main concern of the thread about losing SR, being mad about our favorite freelancers and writers getting screwed (or getting screwed if you are one), or justified moral outrage?

Lastly, have any of the writers worked in an evil AA corp based on IMR/CGL into any of the upcoming books yet?

topps is not suing anyone in this case, to my knowledge. they apparently have someone specifically assigned to keep an eye on CGL, however, and we don't know how long the license extension that they have granted will last (and i'm not sure what you mean by licensing not in production, but CGL is still producing shadowrun and battlemech material)

CGL *is* being sued by a group of 3 creditors (last i heard, it was only 3 anyways) who feel that catalyst is unlikely to be able to ever pay the debt back.

as far as the main concern of the thread... well, that's all over the place. i'd say a little bit of all of those, but it's probably more fair to say it's a lot of all of those, and a whole host of other stuff too.

and no, any current material being written isn't likely to show up on the scene for at least several months, and that assumes it could somehow be worked into an already-existing product, which seems unlikely, to say the least.

Who are the creditors? I was sort of wondering how a game company had $3/4 million for someone to embezzle anyway. Do game companies make quite a bit of money? I'd been under the impression it was not usually so (other than WotC).

I've heard there are apparently about 250 creditors. Printers, free-lancers, family who lent money, friends who lent money, companies who formerly had a business relationship, etc. Not sure if this includes Topps, the IRS or the State of Washington tax people.

Then if CGL survives the first 3 lawsuits, a class action suit will still likely end them?

But there is a direct relationship between Eisner and Topps:

Wow, nice find, sirdoom! So Topps went private in 07 at a company value of $385 million. Whewwwww! I'm about to leave for work so I'm still curious (googling) what their yearly revenue must be. It's got to be way off the chart I had them pegged on. First article I find is this one:

100 million Attax card packs sold by Topps

This really puts the Topps - CGL licensing issues in perspective. No wonder this isn't a big deal for Topps.

Mesh

Well I hope I didn't ruffle any feathers last night with my rants. I hope people took it for what it was, pure speculation for entertainments sake, and not as my actual opinion of the situation. EvE Online was down last night, that's my excuse and I am sticking to it .

I understand this situation has effected many people here's livelihood and I certainty wasn't trying to make light of that fact. For the record my actual opinion is that I think Tiger Eyes is being honest and I would have done the same thing in her shoes including the new job. By everything that has been presented here I think it is obvious who is to blame for the mess and who assisted them. As for JH, I think he is just trying to do what he can to keep the ship afloat and I personally don't find it appropriate for me to question his ethics in staying with CGL.

The story is that the "co-mingling" took place over three years, so it wasn't 3/4 mil in one pop. As for game companies making money, this is a company with two of (to my understanding of the biz) stronger licenses out there. So it isn't your usual "two-guys in the basement with a print-on-demand contract game company."

PS: I totally respect the "two-guys in the basement with a print-on-demand contract game company"s out there - in fact I'd like to be one some day. Just clarifying the type of company we're talking about.

You know - I think I DID hear SOMEWHERE that the EP core rulebook is available. (EP rocks BTW)

Yup just ordered mine from Amazon this morning. Any word on the Gamemaster Pack going back on sale?

We have the GM screen here at Origins, and it will be going into stores by the first week of August.

.
Can you cite a source, kzt?

Yes. That wasn't what I was correcting.

Frank said that he was told that by one of the creditors.

Frank Trollman? As a contrast to what I said about Tiger Eyes, due to Frank's "professionalism", here and elsewhere, he is someone I distrust highly as a source.