If the numbers Frank quoted are right, and Topps knows their right, I don't think IMR is going to enjoy any cases they have upcoming.

I love how you say "we."

Thou just didn't fit as well. Besides, I am part of IMR and CGL.

Yeah, but as far as I'm aware the biggest mistake the other owners made was in trusting the Colemans (and possibly the Billses). It's not like you personally drew money from the piggy bank when you weren't supposed to, didn't pay freelancers and printers, or voted to not pay foreign royalties to Topps.

True, but we certainly could have been more involved and kept an eye on things. I can't really think I'm completely blameless if I could have prevented some of it. Now I have to work even harder to help fix it. It sucks that my friends and coworkers were getting shorted for so long when they didn't need to.

You could also have checked to make sure the paperwork for the owners was filed correctly. No offense, but there comes a point where it's less closing-the-barn-door-after-the-houses-have-left and more let's-buy-some-more-gold-chain.

Why? As I understand it CGL/IMR didn't say how long the license was last time. Why would they change that policy now? To appease their detractors? There's no smart reason to give a time frame because no matter what they say their supporters are going to take this as positive news and their detractors are going to take it as negative news. A specific time frame is not going to change the reaction each person has, so why give their detractors more fodder? I find it much more likely that information would be kept quiet and possibly used at the upcoming trial if it looks advantageous to CGL/IMR to release that information at that time.

And saying the license is still in play is kind of like saying air pressure is still in play on planet earth. The license not being in play is not going to happen because Topps probably will never sell the rights outright, so there will always be a license which has terms of usage that CGL/IMR, or their replacements, are always going to be subject to.

I'm not quite familiar with that last idiom....

Sorry, we had a thread a couple days or weeks back with a reference to I'm Gonna Get You Sucka; it came back to me. Suffice it to say that while I have no say in the matter or full understanding of the financial details, I think continuing to work with the Colemans and Billses is not the wisest decision in the world, and that even if it doesn't come back to bite you in the ass...well, the continued trust in them is just beyond me.

You refer to death by OG? Over Gold?

Best outcome of this thread: I just laughed loudly at work thinking about that move. Every gamer over 30 should see it.

Under 30 and you may not get the cultural references.

BlueMax
/whippersnappers
/// get off my AR lawn

I can't find the info...has it been released exactly how long this license extension is for? It could just be through the con season or it could be 3 years...

What if I AM 30?

Double double post post

There isn't any info to find as they haven't released that information and don't look like they will release it publicly.

You keep your friends close and your enemies closer, something along those lines. I can do more good for SR working with CGL than not.

That, dear fellow, is entirely a matter of opinion.

For those interested in Topps' revenues which were public before they went private in 2007:

After enjoying strong revenue growth related to the Pokemon craze in 2000 and 2001, Topps' revenue and profit have declined steadily. For its fiscal 2006,which ended Feb. 25, the company reported net income of $1.2 million on revenues of $293.8 million, compared with net income of $10.9 million on sales of $294.2million for the prior fiscal year. In fiscal 2000 its revenues were $439million.

I don't know what their revenue is now, but since they went private, they have sold over 100 million Attax baseball cards. They start at $1.39 which means they've made at least $139 million off Attax cards alone. They are now run by former Disney CEO Michael Eisner whose investment firm purchased Topps for $385 million and brought them private.

Although their revenues have fluctuated in the past decade, they are a large corporation. IMR/CGL if I am quoting correctly from their statements here regarding the legal case has had a yearly revenue between $1 million and $1.2 million by comparison.

I found this an interesting perspective on the business.

Mesh

If they could tell people that they had the license for more than a few months you would have seen it. So since they have not said how long they have it, I can only assume that they have it for a period of less than a few months. Let's be honest, these last few press releases have been spun so hard I'm wearing a neck brace. The license is up for grabs, it's in play, it has a price; right now, not sometime down the road. If that wasn't true, then Randall wouldn't be talking about long term plans like they are a thing of the future.

Topps doesn't want IMR to look insolvent, because a bid against an insolvent company would be less. So they are propping up IMR with an extension, covering their bases legally, and Randall is spinning every press release like he works for Topps directly.

If you were working for Topps, would want to explain to your boss why you signed a 3 year license with a company that can't even get rid of a leader who stole a confirmed 750k?

But they didn't make that much. You're forgetting cost of materials (paper isn't free, neither is ink), taxes that the government imposes, and licensing fees.

FWIW, I can confirm that at least one check to a freelancer did go out. I received payment for my work on Running Wild. It cleared the bank. I speak for no one else but myself, however.

http://www.shadowrun4.com/wordpress/2010/0...dowrun-license/

Thats the news

That's not quite accurate.

Relevant Link


Now, that doesn't really mean anything specifically in regards to the most recent license extension. I just wanted to have accurate information out there, as last license renewal/extension, there was indeed a timeline attached.

As I stated before, you're going to take everything that's said as being horrible for CGL/IMR no matter what the news is. Jesus could burst out of a volcano and use telepathy to tell the world that CGL/IMR were his disciples to usher in peace on earth and you would still be complaining. So no, I don't agree with your conclusions. You really think they would take a month to bang out a contract that would extend their license for only two months? Wow, what an incredible waste of time and lawyer fees for both Topps and CGL/IMR just to do it all again come September 1st. I mean if you want to set your time table that short go for it, but you're not doing yourself any favors on what you're saying coming true lowballing it like that.

There are plenty of reasons why they wouldn't give out that information, the most likely reason in my mind being the advice of their legal council in regards to the current lawsuit. But again, as I said, you're not going to believe any of them because you want to believe all news for CGL/IMR is bad news.

For your last statement. Let's look at what Topps had to look at when it came to extending the license. You have a company that has performed well with the license, that made an accounting mistake and mixed personal funds with business funds*, but accurately reported the information to you and had the information they reported to you verified by an independent and adversarial to CGL/IMR source. On the other hand you can not extend the license, and take a gamble on some new company that you have no idea how well they will perform, and there will likely be a 1-3 year gap in the new company publishing product as they get up to speed on the properties. Yeah, I can see how it would get extended. I mean, gee, work with a proven company that's had some recent trouble or gamble on a company that won't be pushing product for a while, it seems kind of obvious which to choose.

*I know you think he stole it, but until you can show us a court case where he's found guilty you can't prove that he actually did.



Ah, thanks for correcting me on that. Well gee then, why does everyone always bandy about three years, three years, as the magic license extension number?

Aww Jees...... I guess all you haters lose.
Now maybe you'll STFU. But I REALLY REALLY doubt it. You losers don't know when to let something go.

Either way. My weekend just got MUCH better.

That would probably be the best reason to announce a long extension timeframe. It shows that the company has a future income stream that is proven to have at least some demand. That would help prove solvency and would only help them in a forced bankruptcy hearing.

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[quote name='Dread Moores' post='948734' date='Jun 26 2010, 02:43 AM']Relevant Link


Edit: Thanks for the link, sorry I didn't bother looking at the date.

Derp, derp, please ignore early morning stupidity.

I don't get the constant insulting of the remaining freelancers, direct or indirect as they may be. Especially when people go around calling them "scrubs" which is just mind boggling. Like there was some kind of union and they were hired behind people's backs, instead of simply replacing people who quit of their own free will.

Scrub? D'you mean scab? I have called certain people scabs.

Yes, a typo. My medication is making it hard to think straight this week.

So ka. I don't use it often and mainly when I'm angry.

I'm disappointed in the practices of the current line dev and the lack of care that shows in the products released under his tenure, but that does bleed over into the freelancers that have done the work. I don't have a problem with them individually, just the company they choose to work with. It's a terrible time to be doing what you love, unfortunately.

I'm angry that Jason apparently told the replacement writers to use my drafts as a friggin' outline.

I hope you aren't referring to my use of the term "scab" in my post on writing a fan-based PDF. I was mostly checking that the people who make it their living to write these books aren't going to get upset that I was talking about fans doing their job for them.

No, I was talking about my use of the word scab.

I seriously doubt AH would say that...he produced a lot of fan material before becoming a freelancer.

A bit more grist for the fictional run. Corp A knows Runner group Alpha is getting info on them for Corp B, so hires Runner group Beta to get specific information into Alpha's hands that support Corp A's claims that they're making to Corp B.

No lengths are cited for either, but CGL's own statements indicate this is an extension and not a full renewal.

Based on this statement...



The whole point of the extension is to give CGL a chance to get its house in order and resume a 'regular publishing schedule', unhindered by missing funds.

I suspect Topps would also like to make sure CGL pays off freelancers it owes so that Topps doesn't have any copyright surprises in the future.

For these reasons, I'm going to guess that the extension is for one year. After a year Topps will probably be evaluating the situation again, with the benefit of one of their own people having been overseeing things at CGL for a year. If they think CGL is on its way up or even managed to bounce back, they'll discuss long term renewal.

It's definitely in the interest of both parties to keep quiet about exactly how long the extension is for though.

I think you're giving them too much credit. IMR has yet to maintain a production schedule on the par of past license holders. That's the reason why the forth edition of Shadowrun just got it's Corp Guide five years down the road.

I think Frank mentioned a rumor of a proposed extension through Gen Con. My guess is that is what we're talking about here. in an extension That way Topps gets to see if there is a marked difference in con sales this year and watch how the bankruptcy case goes without committing the license long term. In Topps position I wouldn't give IMR an extension past that court date, the last thing they want is their license holder folding nearly a year before the contract expires. More likely they are talking with other parties and giving IMR plenty of rope to either pull themselves up or hang themselves. Even if they manage to get out of the hole they dug, they still have to stand next to a fresh company and explain why they are a better company to handle the license, or rather it looks like Loren Coleman will be doing that if Randall's letter is to be believed.

I know where my money is on that bet. And so does Topps, at Loren's house.

But if they fold before the contract expires, then Topps just gives it to another entity... so where is the harm in an extension that has a while to see if things improve?

Keep the Faith

I just think that's too short a term and too small a scale for Topps to really concern themselves with. Topps originally gave CGL a year to get started, followed by a 2 year license. I suspect this could be something similar.



Why would it matter? In either outcome, the license is terminated. In either outcome, the licensee folds. In either outcome, Topps is in the same position of having to find a new licensee.



That's why I think it's not really in the interest of either company to publicly state how long the extension is for. Catalyst doesn't want to look like it has a countdown clock hanging over its head and Topps probably wants to continue to court interested parties and have offers in hand in case things at Catalyst do manage to fall apart before the extension is up.

I also think that the length of the extension might not really matter. We already know Topps has one of their people keeping a close eye on CGL. They most likely used their leverage to include all sorts of outs in the extension contract. If CGL gets bankrupted, the extension ends. If financial practices aren't cleaned up, the extension ends. If CGL breaks or doesn't meet certain debt repayment goals by a certain time, the extension ends. A set date might be more of a formality in their situation.

It would most likely slow down the process. That could leave Topps with months of time lost that another company could be making them money off their IP. Just a speculation there, but I'd want to avoid it. Also the press of having the company that produces Shadowrun and Battletech going under. As these thread have shown, not everyone understands who owns the games. Much easier to let IMR implode and sign off the license to to someone else. August 9th is the new drop dead date for IMR, so why even risk signing a license with a company that might not be around past the extension date. In fact, the timing of the extension being signed recently could have been based off the courts decision to hold the hearing on the 9th.

I honestly don't think Topps is going to play around with IMR. I'll bet they already know if IMR is going to hold the license or not and they're just using the semblance of solvency to jack up the other offers. I could be wrong, but the alternative is working with an admitted crook who has personally defrauded you.

When they got started they didn't have a history of freelancer abuse, embezzlement and a pending bankruptcy hearing.

It's not in the interest of IMR because it's not a fix to their current situation. And if Topps is courting anyone, that's also very not in the interests of IMR because anyone else is going to be in a better position to produce the games. If it was a year long probationary "get straight" extension, they'd be crowing about it. Since there is no information on length, you can assume by the way they are spinning tiny bits of positive info that the info they have isn't positive.

Though, as was pointed out, the numbers reported by CGL/IMR and the numbers reported by Frank matched up. So that means Topps was either not personally shorted or defrauded anything, or if they were shorted, CGL/IMR came clean about it, possibly knocking it down from the level of 'defrauding' to 'mistake'.

In that you are wrong... I have not been personally defrauded by anyone...

Keep the Faith

Or you could just be reading your own desires into the situation... Why not just wait and see, instead of decrying Doom and Gloom for both CGL and Topps? If CGL folds, then Topps will probably have other options lined up anyways, just in case, that is only good business...

Keep the Faith

Clarification. So far as I know, we weren't told to use your drafts as an outline. I certainly wasn't. I was told to look at one of the writers who had not terminated his contracts.

Because I don't like how IMR is run, I don't like the quality of the work they are producing. And I don't like how they are treating fans and freelancers. So I'm going to be vocal and point these things out. Because waiting and seeing could mean having to deal with more of what we have now.

I know I'm reading some of my own desires into the situation, but I don't believe I'm speculating out of the realm of possibility.

And for the record the "you" above was from the perspective of Topps. I recognize that there isn't a lot customers can do individually and that the actions of IMR don't directly affect us. But they are messing with something that I hold dear, and I will continue to follow developments and post my thoughts on them until such time as I die or feel the line is being given the proper care by people who know what they are doing.

And honestly, I do not agree with that particular opinion at all; I actually like the content that IMR/CGL has put out, and am eagerly awaiting more. I am sorry that you do not... I have been playing Shadowrun since 1990, and I can say that there is a LOT of stuff previously that I did not like (many is the time that I thought that the Current Writers did not give the proper care, or did not know what they were doing)... My personal opinions did not determine what was printed in the least. I may not like how IMR/CGL is run, but who really cares? I do not like how a LOT of companies are currently run; It does not mean that I am going to stop buying Gas because I do not like how BP has screwed things up...

Anyways...

Keep the Faith

You might do that for public relations, but you would likely keep silent until and for the hearing.