CGL Speculation #9, Please review ToS before posting Options

[Platinum]

Would you also realize that it is a liability to work with someone who is trying to undermine you at every turn? Someone who is trying to undermine other workers confidence in you? As someone else pointed out earlier, do you really think this kind of shit would be tolerated at your workplace?

What I am saying is if you take away the reason and the method of undermining, and try and create something positive out of it instead it doesn't become a problem.

And yes that stuff is tolerated all the time here. (I am in a union environment) I have also seen this in non-union workplaces.

The key here is that it is the manager's responsibility to fix this.

[Platinum]

I've seen people throw this around like is something special about Ancient History.

Yet I have not see anyone phrase Jason's action as a passionate defense of what works on.

From there own words Jason and Bobby butted heads alot, which is typical of passionate people. However they have a disagreement on how that gets expressed, and they could not reconcile. Given that Jason is/was the boss it is in no way surprising this is how it fell out.

From reading Jason's posts I don't see Jason as passionate, but rather controlling. When I read the posts they seem to lack sincerity. They are extremely diplomatic, and tactful. Bobby's comments aren't.

In the end, I would still hire Bobby to work on a product line in spite of everything that has fallen out. I would hire Jason, but not in a management capacity. He's more of a marketing type to me.

[Dr.Rockso]

From reading Jason's posts I don't see Jason as passionate, but rather controlling. When I read the posts they seem to lack sincerity. They are extremely diplomatic, and tactful. Bobby's comments aren't.

In his defense, remember that he is the SR line dev and the unofficial 'face' for CGL on these boards. If he seems overly diplomatic and controlled it's likely because he has to be. Even if this was the place for him to give AH a piece of his mind he can't. AH, on the hand, has only himself and the mods to answer to.

[Dread Moores]

*checks to make sure he's reading Dumpshock, not Monster.com* Huh. I didn't know we handled real-life hiring here. Good to know.

[Dr.Rockso]

*checks to make sure he's reading Dumpshock, not Monster.com* Huh. I didn't know we handled real-life hiring here. Good to know.

We also handle Lone Star's new paranormal cavalry division.

[Brett]

What percentage of Shadowrun players (and possible buyers of new books) know about this, I wonder? I mean, sure, everyone here at dumpshock.com does, but we're just a small part of the community.

My 2 cents:

I had heard something about the LLC situation, but at the time had no interest. My LGS got copies of the SR4a LE, and I nabbed one. Started checking online and found out about it after. The majority of people at my LGS had no clue about it.

[Caadium]

We also handle Lone Star's new paranormal cavalry division.

Those officers that ride around on awakened llama's are fairly intimidating.

[Dread Moores]

We also handle Lone Star's new paranormal cavalry division.

Apparently we also represent an overwhelming majority of the entire world wide Shadowrun fanbase as well. This place is just doing too much work.

[Catadmin]

We also handle Lone Star's new paranormal cavalry division.

Hiring for the Pixie Clank division (Pilots only, please. No riggers) will start this Sunday. Resumes can be forwarded to http://www.twirlingmustacheco.com.

@=)

[Patrick Goodman]

Hiring for the Pixie Clank division (Pilots only, please. No riggers) will start this Sunday. Resumes can be forwarded to http://www.twirlingmustacheco.com.

@=)

Tease/ I thought someone had actually secured that URL when you linked it.

[Caadium]

Tease/ I thought someone had actually secured that URL when you linked it.

I agree! I definately see that as a viable name that would be seiing their evil wares on Think Geek.

[Cain]

Cain,
under what circumstances would you say it would be acceptable to buy from CGL again?
<snip>
NOTE: I have seen wonderful,
high quality books for other systems that were utterly useless, and poor quality books that were so usable, I still
pull them out to this day. So, quality of the product is not necessarily important to me.

Already answered this one. It's when it becomes a company that Demonseed Elite would work for again.

I'm not being necessarily literal, in that he *has* to come back; but I am being serious in that it has to become the sort of company he'd want to come back to. An ethical company that treats its freelancers fairly.

As to your second post, I don't get it. Usability *is* part of quality. For example, I still occasionally refer to my original copy of Harlequin when I need a GM refresher course. Are you referring to art? I can say that art doesn't matter so much as quality writing. But saying "quality of the product isn't important" makes absolutely no sense at all.

[darthmord]

I find it funny how a company that didn't exist at the time could be accused to sabotaging CGL's license. It's not exactly easy to start a company, let alone one with enough investment capital and reputation to pull in a major license like Shadowrun.

Here's a question. Over on RPG.net, there's quite a few people boycotting CGL products. "Voting with their wallets", so to speak. I know I haven't bought a single CGL product since this whole thing came to light. Are there other other people who might go this way?

Might? I've not bought a single SR product in months. Battletech I can measure in over 2 years.

[Dread Moores]

Already answered this one. It's when it becomes a company that Demonseed Elite would work for again.

I'm not being necessarily literal, in that he *has* to come back; but I am being serious in that it has to become the sort of company he'd want to come back to. An ethical company that treats its freelancers fairly.

So how do you see that working? We don't buy anything until we have freelancers telling us that payments are on time, and contracts handled well, etc? I'd imagine that lack of money coming in would be an issue while we wait for these improvements. Heck, it could be enough of an issue that CGL wouldn't be able to make any more....oh I see what you did there.

Alright, all sarcasm aside, I'm not sure how you actually see that working out. Folks stop buying now in large numbers, there likely isn't a later to see if those improvements happen. I'm not saying anybody should be buying now, they'll have to make their own call on that. It just seems like a plan with some flaws. I mean, if you want this specific company to improve, then likely they'll need support as they make the improvements (assuming they do/did).

[JM Hardy]

Already answered this one. It's when it becomes a company that Demonseed Elite would work for again.

I'm not being necessarily literal, in that he *has* to come back; but I am being serious in that it has to become the sort of company he'd want to come back to. An ethical company that treats its freelancers fairly.

<snip>

This is one area where Cain and I are in agreement. This is what I want CGL to be, too. I believe this is what the company is working to turn itself into; that could just be my Zweckoptimismus kicking in again, but I believe lessons have been and are continued to be learned from past mistakes.

Jason H.

[tete]

Over on RPG.net, there's quite a few people boycotting CGL products. "Voting with their wallets", so to speak. I know I haven't bought a single CGL product since this whole thing came to light. Are there other other people who might go this way?

Yes and No. After Vice I have not bought any print or pdf SR4 books, however I am still buying older pdfs. I feel kinda bad buying them but some how I'm justifying it in my mind as freelancers wouldn't get any money from it anyway.

[Cthulhudreams]

Does anyone know why freelancers only get paid when the book is physically printed? Why arn't payments tied to any publication (e.g. electronic) no matter the format?

[Ancient History]

To hazard a guess, I'd say it's a legacy on the contracts because up until a few years ago it was not normal to sell PDFs of game books over the web. Realistically, the reason to pay 30 days post publication was likely to give the company time to get enough money to pay the freelancers (and/or recoup printing costs). For a long time, I swear it looked like CGL was using the profit from one book to pay for the printing of the next book, but I honestly can't say that's at all right.

[Caadium]

Does anyone know why freelancers only get paid when the book is physically printed? Why arn't payments tied to any publication (e.g. electronic) no matter the format?

This is pure speculation since I'm not a freelancer, but I would suspect that it has to do with the fact that electronic publication is still young compared to hardcopy. Therefore, companies like CGL have been able to keep things tied to hardcopy publication instead. The fact that some of the PDFs get released and then tweaked before hardcopy (SR4A, as well as the most recent release are two examples) probably suggests that they don't view PDFs as a full release. The fact that it's being sold and changing hands however would make me think it should become an issue for freelancers at some point.

Edit: Ninja'd by AH. Who basically said the same thing.

[graywulfe]

Would you also realize that it is a liability to work with someone who is trying to undermine you at every turn? Someone who is trying to undermine other workers confidence in you? As someone else pointed out earlier, do you really think this kind of shit would be tolerated at your workplace?

Umm, if I was fired for calling my boss a liar in a private conversation, I would sue the living crap out of my ex-employer for wrongful termination. The law, to the best of my understanding, would protect me in this situation. Please note, I Am Not A Lawyer, and I am not commenting on the situation between AH and JMH in specific or in general. Just pointing out that your example is poor and from what I know inaccurate.

[Cain]

Alright, all sarcasm aside, I'm not sure how you actually see that working out. Folks stop buying now in large numbers, there likely isn't a later to see if those improvements happen. I'm not saying anybody should be buying now, they'll have to make their own call on that. It just seems like a plan with some flaws. I mean, if you want this specific company to improve, then likely they'll need support as they make the improvements (assuming they do/did).

You need to earn that support, by using good business practices. I'm no publisher, but I imagine that collecting even a percentage of $850,000 would help substantially. You know, the money we already paid them?

This is one area where Cain and I are in agreement. This is what I want CGL to be, too. I believe this is what the company is working to turn itself into; that could just be my Zweckoptimismus kicking in again, but I believe lessons have been and are continued to be learned from past mistakes.

Jason H.

See my point? Without the freelancers raising a stink, I doubt that lessons would have been learned. Now, if we want to send a lesson to those above Jason, we need to raise a stink as well.

[Method]

So, like the music industry, the publishing establishment has fallen behind the technology curve and is trying to enforce old ways of doing things so they can continue to profit instead of adapting? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) J/K. I think the gaming industry in particular is moving to embrace electronic publishing, they just need to update their SOP.

For a long time, I swear it looked like CGL was using the profit from one book to pay for the printing of the next book, but I honestly can't say that's at all right.

This sounds like it would be a good thing, right? Unless you mean they were barely making ends meet enough to pay the next print run?

[JM Hardy]

You need to earn that support, by using good business practices. I'm no publisher, but I imagine that collecting even a percentage of $850,000 would help substantially. You know, the money we already paid them?


See my point? Without the freelancers raising a stink, I doubt that lessons would have been learned. Now, if we want to send a lesson to those above Jason, we need to raise a stink as well.

Not entirely correct. This is the way I wanted Catalyst to behave from day one, before anyone raised a stink about anything. It's not like this situation suddenly convinced me that it's a good thing to pay freelancers on time and treat them with respect. I've freelanced for FASA, Fast Forward Entertainment, and FanPro. If I hadn't known already, that was all the education I needed to know that freelancers should be treated well.

Jason H.

[Caadium]

This sounds like it would be a good thing, right? Unless you mean they were barely making ends meet enough to pay the next print run?

Judging by the freelancers not being paid, not to mention other rumors, I think that is exactly what he was suggesting. Kind of a publishers version of living paycheck to paycheck. No savings, no plan, no way to really get where they want to be and could be.

[Method]

Umm, if I was fired for calling my boss a liar in a private conversation, I would sue the living crap out of my ex-employer for wrongful termination. The law, to the best of my understanding, would protect me in this situation. Please note, I Am Not A Lawyer, and I am not commenting on the situation between AH and JMH in specific or in general. Just pointing out that your example is poor and from what I know inaccurate.

Not commenting on AH vs Jason either, but I'm pretty sure a publisher can hire a freelancer at any time for just about any reason. Thats kinda the point of using freelancers and not staff authors.