CGL Speculation #9, Please review ToS before posting Options

[Mesh]

Shadowrun is an awesome setting!

What else can you say? I've been hooked since one of my players "gave" me his SR1 hardback and the other books that first came out so I could GM it. The stories, the art, the open-ended nature of the game... love it! I still maintained my adoration after running it and realizing the SR1 rules didn't quite work.

Nobody likes the debacle that has been going on all year with CGL... which comes to me as a surprise, because this is Shadowrun for fragsake, and what self-respecting SR gamer doesn't like this many twists, turns, and intrigue?

Anyway, here is the lesson I have learned to be successful in my pursuits: Survive at all costs if sticking around allows you to continue to enjoy what you want and get what you want:

If you love Shadowrun like I love it, you're going to play it when you have the opportunity. You're going to GM it when you want to. You're going to buy SR media when you like it enough or "have to have it!". If you produce it, you're going to do whatever you can to see that it keeps getting produced. If you write it, you'll never stop or get distracted.

...because you love it.

When you don't enjoy it anymore, when you truly don't want to anymore, then you won't. But until that moment comes, PERSIST! Never undermine your love or your enjoyment. Never undermine your own goals or dreams. Never cut your nose off, because ultimately you only decide your own fate. You're just one person, and you'll have to live with the spite done to your face, not anyone else.

What's going to happen to Shadowrun? I speculate that our love for the game will continue to make it a success, because let's face it. Shadowrun is awesome!

Mesh

[Demonseed Elite]

I just have a few comments.

First, freelancers aren't exactly fired. We're employed on an assignment-by-assignment basis. The publisher can just stop giving us assignments at any time for any reason (similarly, a freelancer can stop pitching for assignments at any time for any reason). The freelancer forums are a privilege for freelancers to help collaboration and so losing your access to them is a pretty clear sign that you won't be getting future assignments, but it's not exactly the same as being fired.

It's really not too terribly surprising that AH lost freelancer forum access when Jason found out what he was saying to other freelancers during a freelancer chat. It doesn't surprise me, at least. It doesn't mean that AH was wrong or that Jason was wrong, but publishers will tend to stop working with freelancers that they find difficult to work with. Take Frank Trollman. Smart guy and a good writer, but even I'll admit he was difficult to work with. He has his positions and he gets very entrenched into them, which makes the usual push/pull compromise of collaborative writing a real exercise in frustration.

Finally, I keep in touch with a lot of the freelancers on a daily basis, including ones that are still writing for CGL. If the professional relationship between CGL and the freelancers improves, I'll probably hear about it because I'll be asking. And if I hear about it, I'll let people here know about it because that's the resolution I've been seeking. I doubt we'll ever know the details of Loren L. Coleman paying back CGL, but as long as it doesn't interrupt freelancers getting paid, that's an internal issue for CGL to work out.

[Cardul]

In my experience most players want to be players, not GMs. So they play whatever game has a GM willing to gm.

And, as much as I enjoy GMing.....I would really like to be a player sometimes....I cannot be as cool as a GM as I can as a player!

[Congzilla]

I ran across all of this yesterday in my search to find out why Eclipse Phase is now just under $200 on amazon. Having been a SR and BT fan for about 20 years now I find it all a bit depressing. It is pretty easy to draw conclusions, pick sides, and point fingers; after-all isn't that what the internet is for when you aren't surfing for porn. But when it comes down to it I just like playing the games, I just enjoy the settings. I have seen these licenses get passed around from developer to developer to several times. Fortunately the IP's are strong enough that they always seem to land on their feet.

I understand some people want to "vote with their money", and that is their choice, but I think in the long run that tactic is going to hurt the IP's more than Catalyst. After seeing the books from the licenses Catalyst lost over this incident skyrocket in price I went the other route, that is to say I ordered every SR and BT book I think I need to run games for the next decade if need be in case they do go out of print soon; 9 books in total.

[RunnerPaul]

which comes to me as a surprise, because this is Shadowrun for fragsake, and what self-respecting SR gamer doesn't like this many twists, turns, and intrigue?

Oh, I love them, in my game. To suggest that I should use that as a model for what is normal and acceptable behavior for a real-world company is, to be blunt, an indication of a loss of the ability to distinguish between fantasy and reality. This is a potentially self-destructive mental issue that can lead to such things as thinking you're a female elf shaman doing a run on a corporate facility when actually you're just a guy with a wig and a Japanese blade robbing the staff of a lingerie store in Belfast.

So, in the good name of the hobby that I love, step away from the knickers, Beho, please.

[Endroren]

This is a potentially self-destructive mental issue that can lead to such things as thinking you're a female elf shaman doing a run on a corporate facility when actually you're just a guy with a wig and a Japanese blade robbing the staff of a lingerie store in Belfast.

You know, it was guys JUST like him that convinced my parents to throw out all my AD&D books when I was in Middle School. *sigh* You see - THIS is why we can't have nice things.

We should make a pact among gamers everywhere - if you are ever arrested, involved in a scandal, or otherwise find yourself in trouble, you vow that under NO circumstances will you mention RPGs in any way, shape, or form upon penalty of being bludgeoned to death with copies of the HERO 5th Edition core rulebook.

[Method]

In my experience most players want to be players, not GMs. So they play whatever game has a GM willing to gm.

This has been my experience as well. Though my group has on occasion purchased new books for me (but only because they wanted the new toys in our game).

[AStarshipforAnts]

In my experience most players want to be players, not GMs. So they play whatever game has a GM willing to gm.

That's the way it is in my area as well. Although, some of the usual players are starting to give GMing a shot so that everyone can have a chance to play. It still follows the pattern of having not enough GMs and too many players.

[Steelfang]

Umm, if I was fired for calling my boss a liar in a private conversation, I would sue the living crap out of my ex-employer for wrongful termination. The law, to the best of my understanding, would protect me in this situation. Please note, I Am Not A Lawyer, and I am not commenting on the situation between AH and JMH in specific or in general. Just pointing out that your example is poor and from what I know inaccurate.

Depends on the state you live-in. Here in Colorado, it's a no-fault state. Your boss can fire you for no reason whatsoever, especially if you work in a non-union shop. Even if you are union, they don't need much provovaction to terminate.

[Demonseed Elite]

Depends on the state you live-in. Here in Colorado, it's a no-fault state. Your boss can fire you for no reason whatsoever, especially if you work in a non-union shop. Even if you are union, they don't need much provovaction to terminate.

New Hampshire is similar, though there was a recent case where four women were fired from a town government office for gossiping about their boss. They counter-sued and a $130,000 settlement was reached.

Though that's completely irrelevant to anything involving Catalyst freelancers!

[Doc Chase]

This has been my experience as well. Though my group has on occasion purchased new books for me (but only because they wanted the new toys in our game).

Are you kidding? That's how I get my books.

[Catadmin]

We should make a pact among gamers everywhere - if you are ever arrested, involved in a scandal, or otherwise find yourself in trouble, you vow that under NO circumstances will you mention RPGs in any way, shape, or form upon penalty of being bludgeoned to death with copies of the HERO 5th Edition core rulebook.

Does that mean I get lynched if I say I actually enjoyed the Hero system back in the day?

<hiding now>

[emouse]

Does that mean I get lynched if I say I actually enjoyed the Hero system back in the day?

<hiding now>

It's a reference to the sheer mass of the rulebook. 6th edition, if you haven't seen it, is a textbook. The kind of thick history or physics book you got in school. And it's not the entire set of rules. There's a similarly sized volume on character creation.

http://www.robotviking.com/wp-content/uplo.../01/hero6th.jpg

[Shinobi Killfist]

It's a reference to the sheer mass of the rulebook. 6th edition, if you haven't seen it, is a textbook. The kind of thick history or physics book you got in school. And it's not the entire set of rules. There's a similarly sized volume on character creation.

http://www.robotviking.com/wp-content/uplo.../01/hero6th.jpg

They broke the main book up into 2 books this time around. Both are massive. I love hero it is probably my favorite system mechanically overall.

[hermit]

Oh, I love them, in my game.This is a potentially self-destructive mental issue that can lead to such things as thinking you're a female elf shaman doing a run on a corporate facility when actually you're just a guy with a wig and a Japanese blade robbing the staff of a lingerie store in Belfast.

What.

Seriously, what.

He should visit his psychiatrist more regularily and take up crossdressing and/or cosplaying to live his wild female elf sex fantasies. Beats shadowrun in the weird sex cathegory. At least the games I attend.

[emouse]

I ran across all of this yesterday in my search to find out why Eclipse Phase is now just under $200 on amazon.

Because it's currently out of print, and because they can. Not that they'll actually sell it for that price.

[Warlordtheft]

I doubt we'll ever know the details of Loren L. Coleman paying back CGL, but as long as it doesn't interrupt freelancers getting paid, that's an internal issue for CGL to work out.

I think that is where most players of the game are, except that as long the quality remains good and the meta plot does not turn into a pixie clank crusade for the sacred jewel of the the tiger, most of us players don't care how CGL is run.

We don't know all the facts regarding LLC's mismangement of the funds. Probably never will. Private companies can do that, but I do suspect Topps will be keeping a short leash on CGL for the time being to rebuild trust. The fact of the matter is, Topps will continue to license SR to CGL in the near future.

[Darkeus]

That's weird, somehow. The players I know would start their own campaign with one of them as GM if they're hooked to the Shadowrun setting enough. And most of them buy their own core rulebooks and sourcebooks and don't receive it as a gift from the GM.
None of the Shadowrun players I know frequent this board and only a few know about the CGL mess. And none of those cared about it. They don't care who writes the books, they don't care about the treatment of freelancers and regular employees - they buy the books they want and are content with it. Don't know if they represent Joe Average Shadowrun player, but I guess so.

This is because Shadowrun is bigger than all of this petty argument.

[tete]

Really you work at a company that fires management before the inquiry is completed and requires a rigorous enquiry for removal of access to company systems, itself generally a step of an inquiry?

I said both parties are suspended immediately. Then an inquiry happens. Usually the inquiry gets the manager either fired or moved regardless because they have to be held to a higher standard and in 80% of cases they did not go to their superiors and report the problem or take the proper step needed. Contractors (who are basically freelancers, your paid to do job X and you have Y time to do it) usually don't have as much protection. They usually also end up fired or moved as well as the manager. The only case I have ever seen where the employee was fired and the manager was not fired or moved the manager had spent 6 months talking to his bosses about the problem employee and those bosses had talked to the employee as well even bringing in a mediator and having multiple marks put in his file.

And this would be true at IBM, AT&T, Microsoft, Department of Justice, Department of Defense... need I go on?


[edit]

In this particular case, AH and Jason would have both been suspended until the inquiry was done. Most likely AH would have been toast not being an actual employee. Jason status would have depended completely on what the inquiry finds. Even then if CGL likes Jason and hes found to be at fault they may just give him a different job with other responsibilities. Or the inquiry may find he followed all the procedures necessary to cover the company bum from lawsuits and stay where he is.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I said both parties are suspended immediately. Then an inquiry happens. Usually the inquiry gets the manager either fired or moved regardless because they have to be held to a higher standard and in 80% of cases they did not go to their superiors and report the problem or take the proper step needed. Contractors (who are basically freelancers, your paid to do job X and you have Y time to do it) usually don't have as much protection. They usually also end up fired or moved as well as the manager. The only case I have ever seen where the employee was fired and the manager was not fired or moved the manager had spent 6 months talking to his bosses about the problem employee and those bosses had talked to the employee as well even bringing in a mediator and having multiple marks put in his file.

And this would be true at IBM, AT&T, Microsoft, Department of Justice, Department of Defense... need I go on?


[edit]

In this particular case, AH and Jason would have both been suspended until the inquiry was done. Most likely AH would have been toast not being an actual employee. Jason status would have depended completely on what the inquiry finds. Even then if CGL likes Jason and hes found to be at fault they may just give him a different job with other responsibilities. Or the inquiry may find he followed all the procedures necessary to cover the company bum from lawsuits and stay where he is.

Lets just say my experiences differ. What I've seen is the manager is usually asked to start documenting the problems with the employee and when they hit a certain mark they fire the employee.

[Demonseed Elite]

The fact of the matter is, Topps will continue to license SR to CGL in the near future.

"Near future" is vague, though, so let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. The license extension was not finalized last I heard (no signatures on the dotted line yet) and we do not know how long it will be for.

[Doc Chase]

Lets just say my experiences differ. What I've seen is the manager is usually asked to start documenting the problems with the employee and when they hit a certain mark they fire the employee.

Speaking as a contractor, they sometimes don't even hit a certain mark. It all depends on the company's HR policy and even whether or not the state they're in is a right-to-work.

[Congzilla]

Because it's currently out of print, and because they can. Not that they'll actually sell it for that price.

I understand that, I grabbed the free pdf from Rob's site. I hate reading off a screen for something like that so Ill just print it, get it bound, and have my own one off copy. I was more concerned with getting the rest of the SR and BT books I wanted before they are out of print too. Obviously I hope Catalyst pulls itself up by the ole' boot straps and gets it's business in proper order so that the people that have made this game great stay around to keep doing so, but I wasn't willing to take that chance and end up not having the material around. I just love the games, I could care less what imprints' name is on the cover. As a fan the whole situation is just kinda sad in a 'you just found out your dog might be dieing' kind of way.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Speaking as a contractor, they sometimes don't even hit a certain mark. It all depends on the company's HR policy and even whether or not the state they're in is a right-to-work.

Yeah contractors I don't know, but where I have worked it usually is 3 documented incidents and then they fire the employee. Once they have that they usually figure they have enough to protect there butts if it comes to a lawsuit even if the States laws are a pain in the ass. Though yes in some states they can basically fire you because they don't like the cut of your jib.

[Endroren]

It's a reference to the sheer mass of the rulebook. 6th edition, if you haven't seen it, is a textbook. The kind of thick history or physics book you got in school. And it's not the entire set of rules. There's a similarly sized volume on character creation.

What he said. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The link I gave was for when the HERO guys literally went out and fired a gun at the 5th Edition brick, um, Rulebook and it stopped bullets. They bring it to GenCon each year - ask to see it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And frankly, I think HERO is a very cool system. I think the presentation makes it inaccessible for most people (although that's slightly better in 6th edition) which is its biggest flaw.

Now to avoid getting a moderator thwack for digressing too far - I'm (sadly) not making it to Origins this year. Does CGL have the uber-booth from GenCon? Or have they scaled things back due to the trouble? I'm not sure how those things go - do you pay in advance?