20th Anniversary Book, Got it? Like it? Hate it? Options

[Ancient History]

I understand completely, but there was a disparity between the elemental manipulations, regular combat spells, and the elemental combat spells. Regular combat spells were all like "We're casting a spell to hurt you!" and then elemental combat spells were all like "We're casting a spell to hurt you...with fire!" It was totally a dick move. And elemental manipulations were getting so gipped.

[Tashiro]

I understand completely, but there was a disparity between the elemental manipulations, regular combat spells, and the elemental combat spells. Regular combat spells were all like "We're casting a spell to hurt you!" and then elemental combat spells were all like "We're casting a spell to hurt you...with fire!" It was totally a dick move. And elemental manipulations were getting so gipped.

Each had their uses. Elemental Combat spells were a nice direct (if higher drain) spell for combat mages. Elemental manipulations though could do things combat spells couldn't... like ignore cover when you whip out the area effect. And if your ability to aim was good, you could get more successes / hits with a manipulation.

The thing is... spreading out the flaming love seems more a 'combat' thing than a 'manipulation' thing. Sure, I can see 'transmute air to fire', but fireball seems so much more a 'combat' effect than anything else.

I'm seriously considering house-ruling that you can tack on elemental effects to combat spells again.

[TheForgotten]

Yes, that is one of several rules tweaks that were included in the Anniversary Edition and will be posted as errata later on. Other changes include revised direct combat spells, sensor mechanics and costs, and a rewrite and polish of the Matrix and Skills chapter for greater clarity and ease of reference. Plus, we incorporated several advanced rules (customized limbs, the advanced skills, etc) into the core ruleset.

Pardon me for this observation, but a limited collectors edition is pretty poor place for a major rules change and is going to cause no end of aggro when the issue comes up in actual play. Changing XP costs to something not in the physical books is a good way to have a fight. Also that's 6 game sessions of XP to raise magic from 5 to 6 (i.e. quite possibly the total duration a biweekly game), that's a very good way to get a bunch of front loaded characters.

[Shinobi Killfist]

So you did read Happy Trails!

so far only read Best Served Cold. I hate the arrogant superior pro and stupid rookie stories with a passion, which gave it a bad start. And then a fairly bad revenge story followed.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Pardon me for this observation, but a limited collectors edition is pretty poor place for a major rules change and is going to cause no end of aggro when the issue comes up in actual play. Changing XP costs to something not in the physical books is a good way to have a fight. Also that's 6 game sessions of XP to raise magic from 5 to 6 (i.e. quite possibly the total duration a biweekly game), that's a very good way to get a bunch of front loaded characters.

It might be bad timing but it is overdue. Attributes add to multiple skills and skill groups, having them cheaper to raise than a skill group was poorly balanced design.

[TheForgotten]

Each had their uses. Elemental Combat spells were a nice direct (if higher drain) spell for combat mages. Elemental manipulations though could do things combat spells couldn't... like ignore cover when you whip out the area effect. And if your ability to aim was good, you could get more successes / hits with a manipulation.

The thing is... spreading out the flaming love seems more a 'combat' thing than a 'manipulation' thing. Sure, I can see 'transmute air to fire', but fireball seems so much more a 'combat' effect than anything else.

I'm seriously considering house-ruling that you can tack on elemental effects to combat spells again.

Um can you fill me in on the change? Did they get rid of lightning bolt and the like with the new printing?

[Malachi]

Pardon me for this observation, but a limited collectors edition is pretty poor place for a major rules change and is going to cause no end of aggro when the issue comes up in actual play. Changing XP costs to something not in the physical books is a good way to have a fight. Also that's 6 game sessions of XP to raise magic from 5 to 6 (i.e. quite possibly the total duration a biweekly game), that's a very good way to get a bunch of front loaded characters.

I believe those changes were going to be released (and will be) as errata anyway. CGL just happened to be working on a Core Book reprint and so it seemed like a good place to put the changes. Incidentally, IMO, the thing that makes this book worth the money is the reorganization of the Wireless World chapter. I'm sure the rules will be much easier for everyone to follow now.

[Tashiro]

Um can you fill me in on the change? Did they get rid of lightning bolt and the like with the new printing?

No, this was way back in 1E and 2E. In those editions, you could add an elemental side effect to Combat Spells. In 3rd and 4th Edition, you can't. :\ Sadness.

[Adam]

Pardon me for this observation, but a limited collectors edition is pretty poor place for a major rules change and is going to cause no end of aggro when the issue comes up in actual play.

This is not just a limited collectors edition. There is the full, regular printing -- the $45 book -- and the limited edition version of that, for $65. Both books will be available at the same time [and the PDF is available now.] The regular printing is staying in print.

The two-color [green] book that's been through six printings is being retired.

[Tashiro]

This is not just a limited collectors edition. There is the full, regular printing -- the $45 book -- and the limited edition version of that, for $65. Both books will be available at the same time [and the PDF is available now.] The regular printing is staying in print.

The two-color [green] book that's been through six printings is being retired.

Put it in a happy place, it has served us well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Aristotle]

The two-color [green] book that's been through six printings is being retired.

Shadowrun has a history of integrating errata in subsequent print runs, so really not that big a deal. At most it's a revised edition, but the changes aren't nearly as sweeping as revised editions tend to be (imho).

[hobgoblin]

No, this was way back in 1E and 2E. In those editions, you could add an elemental side effect to Combat Spells. In 3rd and 4th Edition, you can't. :\ Sadness.

back then you also had the mental loop de loop known as grounding. and combat spell behavior changed big time based on it being elemental based or not...

[Andinel]

Just wondering, on page 22, is the name in the middle of the page on the left supposed to be JackHammer, or FastJack?

[Shinobi Killfist]

back then you also had the mental loop de loop known as grounding. and combat spell behavior changed big time based on it being elemental based or not...

it may have been a mental loop-de-loop, but it was a cool one. It added a lot of flavor to the magic system, and put an extra if somewhat abusable limiter on focuses.

[Muspellsheimr]

Can anyone give me a list of what was changed, & how? I cannot afford it just yet, & do not want to wait for Catalyst to release the errata, as there is no way to tell how long that will take.

I am particularly interested in the changes to Combat spells & adept powers - I really want to see how many of my house rules (that I officially began using last week) are going to be official.

Also, although I doubt it was changed, is the increased Karma cost for attributes calculated before or after applying racial modifiers? We are using New Rating x 5, before modifiers.

[hobgoblin]

assasination: slip rating one focus into target, push a high level spell into said focus from astral space...

alternative version, make spirit materialize, then cast spell on said spirit...

these days i would use a ritual castng and a material link or spirit observer for same basic effect...

[Shinobi Killfist]

Can anyone give me a list of what was changed, & how? I cannot afford it just yet, & do not want to wait for Catalyst to release the errata, as there is no way to tell how long that will take.

I am particularly interested in the changes to Combat spells & adept powers - I really want to see how many of my house rules (that I officially began using last week) are going to be official.

Also, although I doubt it was changed, is the increased Karma cost for attributes calculated before or [/i]after[/i] applying racial modifiers? We are using New Rating x 5, before modifiers.

I honestly do not know the answer to that. I'd be happy to do it, if the SR4 people said it was okay. I do not like reproducing parts of a rulebook online without permission.

[Muspellsheimr]

Understandable to ask for permission first, but I can all but guarantee it will be fine. The changes are official, & are errata, which will be released 'as soon as they have time'.

I do not see what the problem would be.

[Tiger Eyes]

Understandable to ask for permission first, but I can all but guarantee it will be fine. The changes are official, & are errata, which will be released 'as soon as they have time'.

I do not see what the problem would be.

Some helpful person could start a separate thread of changes, if they wanted... I wouldn't cut and paste from the book, but a p. #, section, (old rule/text) new rule/text, would probably be the way to go...

[Mäx]

No, this was way back in 1E and 2E. In those editions, you could add an elemental side effect to Combat Spells. In 3rd and 4th Edition, you can't. :\ Sadness.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
What excatly do you call spells like Napalm,Lightningbolt and Fireball if their not Combat Spells.

[piotrus]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
What excatly do you call spells like Napalm,Lightningbolt and Fireball if their not Combat Spells.

I call them useless, overpriced special effects for the trid show (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Nothing is more efficient, mechanic wise, then a stunbolt/stunball. Which always annoyed me to no end... here's hoping the revised rules nerfed stun spells and balanced combat spells (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Angier]

they did... in a way. direct combat spells have a different implementation of drain now.

[Tashiro]

Wait..
*reads*
Well, there we go. Ignore my complaint, you guys brought elemental combat spells back. I'm happy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Interesting way to do it... so direct spells don't have an elemental component, but indirect can. Very interesting.

[Muspellsheimr]

Care to explain what, exactly, you are all talking about?

[Tashiro]

I call them useless, overpriced special effects for the trid show (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Nothing is more efficient, mechanic wise, then a stunbolt/stunball. Which always annoyed me to no end... here's hoping the revised rules nerfed stun spells and balanced combat spells (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I have noticed that stun spells tend to be very brutal. Or, as one of my players calls it, 'MIND CRUSH'. Hmm, interesting how the drain works now.