 SR4 counterspelling, too powerful? |
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 Jun 12 2006, 10:27 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 137 Joined: 8-June 06 From: Present day, Detroit Member No.: 8,683  |
does the fact that there is no limit to the number of targets who can benefit seem unbalancing to anyone else?
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Jun 12 2006, 10:28 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372 |
Well, keeping them in LOS is reasonable enough to me. I mean, think about it, once you start getting into the larger numbers (say, over five), it's gonna be hard to keep them all together, especially after a Powerbelt slips through your counterspelling and someone's eyeballs pop out of their skull in a shower of gore. |
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Jun 12 2006, 10:29 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 06 From: San Francisco Member No.: 8,275 |
No, what seems unbalancing to me is that non-mages have no way to effectively counter spells. All they get is Willpower. If there's no mage in your team or your mage is spending his actions doing some other than counterspelling for you, you get blasted.
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Jun 12 2006, 10:29 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 371 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Regina Member No.: 8,145 |
There is a limit. They have to been within the Mage's LoS. That seems limited enough for me.
Keep in mind that an attacking Mage gets to roll Spellcasting + Magic and a defender usually only gets Will/Bod (+ Counterspelling). So, without Counterspelling it's 2 DP's against 1. |
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Jun 12 2006, 10:31 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 371 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Regina Member No.: 8,145 |
But the Mage doesn't have to spend any actions to Counterspell. It "turns on" with a Free action and is maintainance-free afterward. I like the fact that you need magic to counter magic. SR4 has also added the need for a Hacker/TM to counter a Hacker/TM. |
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Jun 12 2006, 10:32 PM
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#6
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Looking at magic from a SR3 point-of-view it seems as much, but given the lack of dice targets get to roll, it's very helpful for both PCs and NPCs.
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Jun 12 2006, 10:36 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 137 Joined: 8-June 06 From: Present day, Detroit Member No.: 8,683 |
Well, counterspelling is a free action, so unless they're feeling particularly gabby, they'll probably have an action to do it. And this is the SR4 forum, so this may be heresy, but "historically" magic has always been hard to defend against for mundanes. |
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Jun 12 2006, 10:39 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 137 Joined: 8-June 06 From: Present day, Detroit Member No.: 8,683 |
True LOS is an inherent limit, I was just curious if anyone thought it was too much, but the consensus seems to be, with magic, more help is welcome. |
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Jun 12 2006, 10:43 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 137 Joined: 8-June 06 From: Present day, Detroit Member No.: 8,683 |
Actually, putting it that way, i like the way it sounds. |
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Jun 12 2006, 10:48 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 06 From: San Francisco Member No.: 8,275 |
For whatever reason I thought there was an action to counterspell someone else. I don't know Mages that well.
Maybe it's just because I'm new to SR and used to systems where Magic isn't so dominant. On the average run that our team does, the Mage tends to eliminate with extreme alacrity all of the non-Mage metahumans before the Gunbunny or Axe-Troll gets near them. This is because he has around 15 dice for Stunball, and no one has anything but Willpower to resist, and he attacks from the Astral. No other attack is so powerful or hard to resist. Guns can't hit more than three targets, and melee attacks are resisted by Dodge and Reaction or more if you want to use up an action. And from the Astral most opponents have no idea where the attacks are coming from and certainly can't fight back. You don't NEED a Hacker/TM to be safe in the Matrix, just a high Firewall and some Agents, because they don't require skills. You NEED a mage to get protection from spells. I think that non-Mages should be allowed to bind a single counterspelling focus, or have Spirits to protect them. But that's just me. |
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Jun 12 2006, 10:54 PM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
Umm, he shouldn't be able to attack folks from the astral plane, unless they are on that plane also. For normal circumstances, he needs to be in on the same plane as them....
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Jun 12 2006, 10:56 PM
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#12
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
Small nitpick: you can only cast spells at targets on the same plane as you. This means no dumping spells directly out of the astral onto people's heads while you telecommute from home. |
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Jun 12 2006, 11:04 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 06 From: San Francisco Member No.: 8,275 |
'Scuse me. He attacks while astrally projecting, not from the actual astral plane. So he Manifests, gets the drop on a group of enemies, and blasts them all with stunball, then whizzes off at the speed of thought to his next target. Those enemies should be able to have counterspell so that they have a chance in hell. |
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Jun 12 2006, 11:07 PM
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#14
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
That's exactly what I'm talking about. I get materialization and manifesting mixed up, but I know that spirits can do both, while projecting characters can do one. The one that projecting characters can NOT do is the one that lets you cast spells on the physical plane, because it makes spirits dual-natured. Projecting mages have no way of getting to the physical plane without going back to their body (though they can manifest (i think that's the one) on it), so they can't project to another location and cast spells on targets on the physical plane.
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Jun 12 2006, 11:10 PM
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#15
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
Still doesn't work that way, for obvious game balance reasons. |
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Jun 12 2006, 11:30 PM
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#16
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638 |
IIRC when a mage manifests they can only talk and wave their ghosty arms about. They are still on the astral plane, still incorporeal and still unable to interact with the physical world.
I've not got my RAW with me, but I recall in SR3 that spells cast while astrally projecting always caused physical drain. They may have changed that, but if not your mage is going to have some mighty bad nosebleeds or worse! |
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Jun 12 2006, 11:43 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
Well having a high willpower or body doesn't require skills either.... or even a high reaction against indirect combat spells... hmm.... OH! OH! Theres also the thing where cover and various other perception mods affect magic casting... while a hacker doesn't need anything but to detect your node... and private mode makes your commlink useless anyway... and the other thing that balances magic versus tech is DRAIN. That fireball you're whining is sooo powerful... kinda knocks a caster on their proverbial ass. Even a powerball does so to a lesser extent. Casting becomes a direct risk rather than an indirect one as hacking. Thing is, look, I've played with this, and I agree with the game creators as to the balance aspect. If you have a character that you are so worried about... give them Magic Resistance. Those guys are a mages worst nightmare, End of Fragging Story. And get this, since I know this will make you go into confusion induced seizures; magic, in certain circumstances, will have an advantage... shocking I know. So does Hacking, Brute Force, and Social interaction... quell surprise please. But to finish, Spellcasting and Counterspelling are neither underpowered, nor crazy powerful. They. Are. Just. Fine. ... But that can't stop you from houseruling, just be prepared for things to get wacky... :rotate: :wobble: :spin: |
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Jun 13 2006, 12:32 AM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 06 From: San Francisco Member No.: 8,275 |
I thought that was messed up. Now I can't wait to boot that Mage off his high horse. He thinks he's SOOO wiz.
Area-effect spells work well against cover or perception mods.
And I find Drain to be a little toothless, our Mage has 20 dice to roll to resist Drain (8 Logic + 8 Willpower + Focused Concentration + something else, I can't remember), and he can tends to overcast so he can use Heal on himself.
Magic Resistance? 20 BP for a whole +4? A +4 on the defense roll is a Mage's worst nightmare? I hope the target doesn't use edge, the Mage might die of fright. Not to mention that counts against Healing spells and you can't be the target of other helpful spells for willing targets.
Confusion induced Seizures? Did I inadvertantly dis your mom? I said above I'm new to SR and not used to magic-dominated games. Gimme a fraggin' break. |
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Jun 13 2006, 12:39 AM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
Well, I guess there is a reason you should gank the mage first, heh. Mage characters pay for their magic just like sams do for cyber, so it should be pretty useful...Most of them can't stand up to a face to face fight.
I'm not sure how your mage friend got an intuition of 8 and willpower of eight, but it sounds like he is out of hand, even if he stops getting the jump on people from astral. The common mage character will probably not be that tweaked...So, if you are basing a persons ability to resist magic based off of this character it isn't accurate to potray the norm. |
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Jun 13 2006, 12:56 AM
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#20
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
This isn't true. In SR3 it was quite possible to build a starting mundane character who was all but immune to combat spells due to high casting TNs. |
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Jun 13 2006, 01:10 AM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 06 From: San Francisco Member No.: 8,275 |
Sustaining Foci 3 that sustain Increase [Logic] and Increase [Willpower]. From 5 to 8 with some ease. But that is true that I should not see that Mage character as the norm. The Player who plays him is one of those guys that MUST be able to kill anything with one roll. I'm sure you know the type. He's just as twinky in RL. The main reason I think that Magic is unbalanced is that if you sink a bunch of BP into Pistols or Rigging skills or something, then you can shoot people or command a bunch of drones, respectively. If you sink a bunch of BP into magic and spellcasting so you can be a good Social Mage or Hacker Mage or whatever, you just need to spend 3 more BP to get a single combat spell and you're already on par with a Gunbunny who is maxed out for guns. BUT! I'm new to SR so my opinions will certainly fluctuate as time progresses. And in meantime I'll just play a Mage :grinbig: . |
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Jun 13 2006, 01:19 AM
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#22
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
A skill monkey can be a good gunman, hacker, and face without any magic. He won't be the best at any of them, but neither is the mage the best at any of them except the one he focuses on.
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Jun 13 2006, 02:37 AM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 06 From: San Francisco Member No.: 8,275 |
I guess. There are some entire skill groups that can be covered with a few spells, though. A mage with the spells Stealth, Invisibility and/or Hush is going to be better at being stealthy than a chacter with a 4 in the Stealth skill group. Pistols or Longarms 4 doesn't compare with Powerball, Manaball, Stunball and all their associates. Those spells ignore armor and have a roughly equivalent DV, and can hit more enemies at once at a closer range than a grenade. Without recoil, ammo or anything. If you want close combat, cast Armor and/or Physical barrier. A mage with Control Emotions and Mind Probe is a fairly effective Face, with some exceptions. A vigilant GM would be a good defense against the above abuses, as would Astral protection. But a mage can have a combination of the above sets and be an Astral Badass with starting BP. And that's fine, Mages don't get skillwires or suprathyroid glands or platelet factories, but it really pigeonholes you into Mage or Cyberperson. But I guess I don't really care, both are fun to play, and versatile at that, I just wanted to prove my point. :talker: :talker: :talker: :grinbig: oh, and poor TMs are out in the cold |
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Jun 13 2006, 03:15 AM
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#24
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638 |
Sounds like your mage buddy is seriously twinked. 2 sustaining foci on all the time? He'd glow like a beacon on the astral, and there are quiet a lot of things out there whose attention you don't want to get! At least that's the way my GM always played it.
Incidentally I really don't think AoE magic spells bypass cover modifiers. I know they didn't in SR3. Magic is powerful, but that's why it's a 30 BP(?) quality. After sinking BPs into Magic, Spells, and maybe Foci you aren't left with a great number for the rest of your attributes, necessary skills and the rest. As a result I still don't get how your mage buddy can be chucking around such huge handfuls of dice (clearly no lack in the skill or attribute department) wander around with a bunch of bound foci (which cost BP for nuyen and BP to even bind at creation). Regardless he needs to be brought down to earth, as there are plenty of things a mage just can't do. Data-steals, B&E, smuggling runs (border security can be a b*tch), that kind of thing. And you might want to point out to your trigger happy mage, or the GM, that high force spells leave quite an imprint on the background for some time (1 hour per force level IIRC) which can be spotted and recorded by magical CSI! |
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Jun 13 2006, 03:26 AM
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#25
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
a few things. first off, AOE does squat for visibility when you're talking about direct AOE spells (like stunball for example). in order for AOE to ignore visibility mods, you're looking for indirect spells... like fireball. you know, the spell that has a DV considerably higher than stunball. those ones. so, as a matter of fact, your mage absolutely has to see his targets when he's tossing stunballs around. clearly today is your lucky day, you get to knock him down *two* pegs, not just one =D as far as invisibility, actually... it's good in the right circumstances. but useless against someone who can astrally perceive, or has ultrasound, for example. which, incidentally, normal stealth still helps against both of those things. also, unless you're talking about the physical (ie not mana) invisibility, then drones, cameras, and so forth can see right through it. Pistols 4 and Longarms 4 may not compare to stunball, but have you tried an ares alpha with gas grenades? ignores standard armor, good damage, and hard to resist the damage. and the radius on a gas grenade is no laughing matter... if you're up against large enough groups that the radius on one of these bad boys isn't enough, then you're playing some messed up games. this also works to some extent with flashbangs, iirc. as far as your closer range comment... i suspect this may be peg number 3. you CANNOT pick and choose your targets within the area of the stunball. everyone you can see is hit. that is all. it is not "kill all the badguys within the area", it hits everything you can see, whether you like it or not. if there is any advantage to spells, it is their long range, not their short range. and also, the grenade launcher has the advantage of not requiring you to punch yourself in the face when you want to shoot it. armor is all very nice for close combat, but ultimately is not the ultimate solution, unless we're talking about truly massive quantities of it. control emotions/mind probe can be useful. until that mob boss resists it and proceeds to painfully dismember you and everyone you have ever associated with, that is. |
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