 Calling Raygun, Austere, and others of their kind, Firearm/Ammo/Body Armor reworking... |
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 Oct 25 2005, 06:11 PM
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#51
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222  |
Frankly, I have no idea. I don't know whether FMJs for these calibers tend to tumble and how fast, I don't know how significant the effects from the pressure waves are at that point against the spine and e.g. the digestive tract, and for all I know the permanent wound cavity with a sharp spitzer .338 Lapua at 3000fps could be anywhere from .3" to around 0.5" or more. All I can tell you for certain is that a center-mass hit on an unarmored human with deforming ammunition from .338 Lapua, or anything bigger than that, is about as certain a kill as anything. The wound cavity will be enormous, possibly well in excess of a .50 BMG FMJ that stays intact.
Even today, most of such vests are level III-A, and I seriously doubt there will be a downward trend since we've seen something like a 20% drop in weight and 33% drop in thickness in the past 15-20 years. Any fudging can be easily justified with "future tech", however.
It does sound like a bit much to have an Armor Penetration rating that affects the modified Armor rating, but then have forms of Armor than also have an Armor Penetration Modifier that modifies the AP rating which then modifies to Armor rating. And it might not be realistic either. Rigid armor is relatively just as effective against "slow, heavy and deforming" type threats as it is against "fast, light and solid" threats, meaning that if it's thrice as good at stopping 5.56x45mm FMJs as a flexible vest, it's probably thrice as good at stopping .50 AE JHPs too (though that distinction is quite difficult to make...).
I'll try and clear it up, then. First of all, you might be interested in reading through this (PDF, 933kb). It includes the whole testing process and definitions for what levels I through IV mean. In short, if a flexible body armor vest is rated to protect against a particular projectile, that means that in all kinds of conditions, at any angle of incidence, a hit to the vest that isn't within 51mm/2.0" of a prior hit by the same threat nor at the edge of the area protected by the vest will neither penetrate nor cause extensive blunt trauma. This is tested with 6 shots per vest. Level III and level IV protection is most commonly found as plates inserted into a flexible vest, usually itself rated II or III-A. These plates are most often about 10" x 12" in size, usually somehow shaped to better fit a human torso, with one worn in the front and one worn in the back. When properly worn, what I said above about flexible armor tested by NIJ also goes for the actual area covered by a level III plate. Level III vests are tested with 6 shots per plate(/plate+vest), just like I through III-A, except all shots are at straight angle (since it's unthinkable that such materials would be more vulnerable to shots at other angles of incidence). When worn as inserts in a vest, the rest of the vest is still just its normal rating, only the area covered by the plates is in fact higher rated (obviously). Level IV is otherwise like level III, except that only 1 shot is fired per plate(/plate+vest). This is because the materials that were used for such protection when the standard came out were usually very hard but brittle and thus incapable of protecting from several such hits without adding unbearable weight and bulk. This means that a plate that's rated NIJ level IV might not actually pass NIJ level III testing. These days, however, it is very common for plates to pass both level III and level IV testing, being capable of stopping either 6 or more spaced 7.62x51mm M80 FMJ hits or 1 or more .30-06 M2 AP shots. So, to answer your question, if you are wearing, say, a level III-A vest with plate inserts that are rated both level III and IV, then that's only two ~10"x12" areas of your body that are truly protected against 5.56x45mm FMJs. A hit through the vest in a spot where there is no plate insert is almost certainly going to penetrate and cause some damage, and if you're not hit in the vest it's not going to help you much, obviously. Of course, in the 2070s there might be rigid body armor that looks more like 15th century plate armor which would obviously provide better coverage, although that kind of thing would like have problems with the joints and such, not to mention being a pain in the ass to move in.
You mean you'd declare that, no matter the caliber of the firearm, all JHP ammunition would end up with an AP rating of +3? That might be a bad idea. A 5.56x45mm JHP might not do more, might even do less, damage than a .454 Casull JHP, but it's probably going to penetrate body armor much better.
Well, for one thing, you'd have level III-A at Ballistic 9 and III at Ballistic 12, which looks a bit screwy, even if in the actual game mechanics it works out OK. While I haven't seen any actual proof of this, I'd think 2 layers of level III-A wouldn't provide protection against 7.62x51mm FMJs. There is the whole coverage thing, of course, and you can fix a lot with fine tuning the AP ratings of various firearms. Still, I'd like to see inserting heavy rigid plates into a flexible body armor giving a hefty bonus in protection, since there definitely are hefty downsides to it.
Since NIJ tests level III against 7.62x51mm M80s @ 2750fps and it's usually then declared that level III also protects against 5.56x45mm M855s @ 3025fps, I'm pretty sure 7.62x51mm penetrates body armor better. It certainly seems to penetrate rigid armor better, since M80s supposedly penetrate 4mm of rolled homogenous steel plating at 90 degrees while M855 is quoted by the US military as only penetrating 3mm. The better AP rating of 5.56x45mm FMJs in the examples I gave above is that I feel the 5.56x45mm FMJs penetrate better relative to their ability to damage unarmored targets. At 6P, 7.62x51mm FMJs do 50% more damage than 5.56x45mm FMJs (4P), but I feel they certainly shouldn't penetrate 50% better so I adjusted the AP slightly to correct for that. Remember that the actual penetration is best modeled by doing damage through the armor, the AP modified is only a means to that end. |
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Oct 25 2005, 08:02 PM
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#52
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Yeah, I think for game mechanics purposes, setting those cartridges to 10P and 8P respectively is a good decision. I think any more detail than that is beyond the scope of the game, or at least beyond what's needed to satisfy my suspension of disbelief.
Okay, so we pretty much only need Level III-A for the middle category. Or perhaps for variety have something like III-B and III-C which offer slightly better protection at the cost of mobility, but are both still flexible armors with no rigid inserts, thus little to no protection from rifle fire?
I agree. In fact, I came to that decision somewhere before the end of my last post, but since it was so long, I didn't bother going back and changing anything.
Okay, I'm much more squared away on this now. So back to what sort of effect that has on SR game mechanics. Without using hit locations (which I am REALLY loathe to use), how do we abstract the fact that if the rifle round hits the ballistic plate, you are golden, but if it doesn't, you are bleeding?
Actually, I suggested a flat +3 AP for handgun JHP ammo. But even then, I don't think it's a great idea. I hadn't even remotely considered the AP modifier for JHP rifle bullets. With the handgun rounds, I was operating under the concept that with keeping the same AP rating, the variance of damage dealt between cartridges stays the same. For example: two innocent bystanders are shot by two different Shadowrunners. Runner A shoots Bystander A with a 9mm JHP round, and Runner B shoots bystander B with a .44 Mag round. The runners come out with a single net hit, and neither of the bystanders are wearing armor. So Bystander A takes 3 blocks of damage, and Bystander B takes 5 blocks of damage. Then the Runners shoot at two more bystanders. But these bystanders are wearing armored clothing (3 ballistic). With the same scenario as before, the bystander shot by a 9mm takes one block of damage (gets 6 dice for armor), and the bystander shot with the .44 takes 3 blocks of damage (gets 6 dice for armor). In both cases, the .44 does more damage, and the difference in damage between the 9mm and .44 (2 blocks) remains the same. Basically, every handgun round potentially loses 1 block of damage when faced with an armored opponent. It's a pretty steep abstraction, but if you have a better way to do it, I'm all ears. Also, if I would keep something like this, here's how it wout work with a 5.56 JHP. The base AP rating of 5.56 is -6, and making a round a JHP changes the AP by +3, then the net effect of a 5.56 JHP round is 4P, -3. It still penetrates better than a .454 Casull, but not as good as a 5.56 FMJ. I suppose JHP should modify the DC too, but I haven't gotten to that level of detail yet.
Okay, first thing's first...I don't allow armor layering in my games, and neither does SR4. So you can't use that "best layer + 1/2 second best layer" formula. A Level III-A vest is always going to be Ballistic 9 (or whatever we settle on), no matter what is worn over/under it. I agree that two Level III-A vests won't do much of anything to slow down/stop a 7.62mm FMJ round. So that's a non-issue. Second, my initial instinct was to set Level III armor at Ballistic 18. But that makes it just as effective against 7.62mm as Level III-A is vs. .44 Mag. And one of the things we talked about doing is reducing the effective protection of Level III armor to simulate that you are more likely to be hit in a vulnerable spot because the plate doesn't cover your whole torso like the kevlar does for Level III-A. Also, if we do that, when you are wearing Level III armor you will average 7 hits on the resistance test against someone shooting at you with a .50AE. That might make sense if the round hits the ballistic plate, but what if it doesn't? Oh, and how would you express, in game mechanics, the downside to wearing armor with Level III and Level IV plates? I was considering agility penalties, but that can have some unintended consequences because of the dice system. If the heaviest armor gives you a -4 to all agility based skills, then a guy with Agility 3 and pistols 1 can't even attempt to shoot without burning a point of edge (stupidest thing in the game, IMHO). If you instead make it a penalty to reaction to reflect it constricting your movement and being harder to dodge in, you get EVERYONE ditching their armor because reaction is so valuable for saving your ass in a firefight...one point of reaction is at least as good as 3 points of armor, if not better.
Hmmm...I'm not exactly sure I follow. If hitting an unarmored target, the 7.62 will do 2 more boxes of damage (50% more) than the 5.56. That part you are okay with. But when shooting an armored target, you think that final damage difference between 5.56 and 7.62 should be less/equal, right? I suppose that, in what I'm proposing, if you give the 7.62 a better AP rating that you give 5.56, when both are fired at an armored target the 7.62 will generally come out doing more than 2 boxes over the 5.56 because it ignores more armor. So with the crappy scale we have to deal with, if both 5.56 and 7.62 are given an AP of -6, then the 7.62 should consistantly outdamage the 5.56 vs armored and unarmored targets, and the damage difference is always going to be about 2 boxes. But if you give the 7.62 worse AP than the 5.56, the damage difference will stay the same vs. unarmored targets (2 boxes), but the two calibers will do the same or almost the same boxes of damage to the target. I don't know if I quite like that...pretty much everything I've read about 7.62 NATO ball says that it's wounding and penetrating abilities are far better than 5.56, and if it weren't for it's recoil and uncontrollability in autofire from an assault-rifle-type-platform, it would be our standard infantry round. |
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Oct 25 2005, 09:06 PM
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#53
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I think it's a very good idea to include at least some forms of flexible armor that offer significantly better protection than what we have IRL, if only to show that something has changed in 70 years.
Beats me. I'm doing just fine with my hitlocs. :P
Oops. Sorry. Still, switch "5.56x45mm" to "5.7x28mm", and ".454 Casull" to ".40 S&W" in my example, and the point still stands. Even with handguns, there will be the calibers tending towards light and fast bullets which, even with JHPs, should penetrate better than the bigger and slower ones, even if the Damage ratings should reasonably be the same. All in all, you might want to try and avoid a standard formula for projectile types (such as "+1 Damage, +5 AP", or whatever), because of the above and the scaling issues.
It absolutely should, generally more so with rifles than with handguns. But remember that if the opponent is wearing any armor at all, 1 point of Damage averages the same as 3 points of Armor Penetration, so 4P/-6 and 5P/-3 would actually average out the same damage against armor of rating 3 or more -- in other words, deforming ammunition should always "buy" one point of Damage by giving up 4 or more points of Armor Penetration.
It's not a layering thing, it's more a scaling thing. If it's a difference of only 3 more points (averaging one box of Damage resisted) between between III-A and III, then something is probably wrong.
Don't know, I'd have to be more familiar with SR4 for that. Reasonable rules for encumbrance caused by armor should definitely be included. Having an additional 5kg (plus some 2kg for the vest) hanging on your shoulders and not being able to bend your torso much should cause at least some hindrance.
That wouldn't happen unless the AP rating of the 7.62x51mm is worse by more than 3. If the AP rating of the 7.62x51mm is worse than that of the 5.56x45mm by 3 points, then against armored targets (with more Armor than the AP rating of the 5.56x45mm) the 7.62x51mm would still average one more box of damage and would still penetrate 25% better than the 5.56x45mm.
Well, like I said, I have no problem with 7.62 doing 6P vs. 4P for the 5.56x45mm assuming no fragmentation, so no arguments with the wounding abilities. But, according to the US military, the M80 ball round penetrates exactly 33% more steel armor than the M855 at optimum conditions and range -- 4mm of RHS at 90 degrees vs. 3mm. At very long distances the M855 will eventually outpenetrate the M80 at least when it comes to steel: the M855 can penetrate through both sides of a steel helmet at 600 meters, the M80 can't. Having the AP rating being 3 points worse might be too much though. Maybe 2 would be more accurate. |
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Oct 26 2005, 01:38 AM
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#54
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Right, plus from the metagame side, giving the runners and the opposition more choices. I personally like the whole "when it comes to body armor, protection and mobility are inversely proportional" idea. Maybe we just make Level III A stuff really light and super flexible compared to the stuff today, and say the Level III C stuff is just a bit bulkier than today's Level III A stuff, but will stop a 10 guage 3.5" saboted slug at point blank range with zero backface deformation.
Okay, okay, I give up! Can you please share your Hit Location system?
Okay...gotcha. I was at the gunstore yesterday and the owner was showing me this box of .357 SIG ammo that was something in the neighborhood of 95 grain but with a MV of about almost 2100 fps. I suppose treating that round just like a .45 ACP JHP is pretty ignorant. So how about some guidelines on what I should do? If the baseline is say...+3 to AP for a 9mm JHP, then what should we assign for the other calibers?
Duly noted. I will handle each caliber on a case by case basis. With your help, of course.
Hmmm...makes sense. Lets see if I got the math right here. ABC caliber, Full Metal Jacket = 4P, AP: -6 ABC caliber, Jacketed Hollow Point = 5P, AP: -3 ABC caliber, super-duper expanding = 6P, AP: 0 All of those rounds do functionally the same damage, as long as the target's ballistic rating is 4 or higher. Okay...this particular progression is not ideal, mechanics wise. If they all basically work the same, the 6P is always the better choice. I will do the same damage as the FMJ (on average) to armored target, but will always do more to unarmored/lightly armored targets. I could be wrong, but I don't think it works that way in real life. I figure the perm wound cavity from an expanding 5.56 is way nastier than the one from a 5.56 FMJ. So do we go ahead and make it something more like this? ABC caliber, Full Metal Jacket = 4P, AP: -6 ABC caliber, Jacketed Hollow Point = 6P, AP: +2 With this type of progression, the JHP round woll likely do less damage vs. an armored target than the FMJ. While this might not exactly model real life, we give the runners a use for both types of ammo. The JHP is ideal for unarmored targets like gangers and bottom-end rentacops, but you'll want the FMJ if facing any kind of armored threat. What do you think?
Yeah, I can't shake that feeling either, but going to the other extreme...making the difference 9, 12, or 15 gives you all kinds of other weirdness. Like the guy in a level III vest being able to walk right through the hail of fire put down by a half dozen M249 SAWs by virtue of having 21 points of ballistic armor. I was watching some videos from the 2004 Shot Show, and yeah, it looks like the modern ballistic pates can stop some REALLY nasty stuff with almost no chance of the wearer even taking any blunt trauma. So I get it...the stuff in SR should be damned good at stopping whatever it is rated for. So how does your hitloc system determine if that rifle round hit the ballistic plate or the rest of the armor? Do you give such armor two separate ballistic ratings (one for the plate, one for the rest of the armor)?
Like I was saying, I think Reaction/Agility dice pool penalties are in order, but I'm not sure how much is too much.
So it would look like this: 5.56 FMJ: 4P, AP: -6 7.62 FMJ: 6P, AP: -3 I could live with that. I suppose we really don't need to know how we are gonna stat the rest of the body armor if we go with a progression like that.
Yeah...2 points makes is a hair bit nastier. I think I'll go with that. |
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Oct 26 2005, 04:00 AM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 140 Joined: 26-July 05 From: Calgary Alberta, CANADA Member No.: 7,519 |
Off topic I know, I apologize. 15th Century harness (plate armour) was not constrictive. In fact there are men who could run, jump and even do cartwheels in the stuff. There is one guy who wore a historically accurate replica of Henry VIII's full battle harness and was able to get back on his feet by leaping up from on his back. (Leeds Armoury) And it was bulletproof (to the weapons of the time). It went out of fashion because of politics and economics. There, I feel better. Once again, my apologies. |
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Oct 26 2005, 04:33 AM
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#56
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Heh! Funny... Thanks, man. I'll let her know the next time I get to talk to her (hopefully tonight). |
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Oct 26 2005, 05:22 AM
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#57
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I've also heard from a fairly reliable source that people have managed to climb the undersides of 10' ladders while wearing it. Yes, I am aware you can do some amazing stuff while wearing 60lbs of steel plate and padding. But you must concede that moving around in a full suit of plate is significantly more constrictive than moving around in a modern vest with plate inserts -- and that was all I was trying to say there. You can still function quite adequately while wearing articulate, high-coverage plate armor, but there is always some hindrance. And, although I didn't mention it in the original post, it's very likely rigid body armor made in that way that's capable of defeating rifle caliber threats would be quite a bit thicker and probably also heavier than actual 15th century plate.
Proof armor certainly existed, but since in sources from that era it is often explicitly mentioned when armor is "proofed" by the smiths (by firing high-powered crossbows with armor piercing points or handgonnes or whatever at it), and considering the huge variety of effectiveness in firearms of that era, I wouldn't consider 15th century plate "bulletproof" as a rule. During the 15th century, I'd completely agree that politics and economics were the main factors reducing the amount of plate armor in use, firearms completely overtaking armor technology only later.
Zero BFS might be pushing it a bit. ;) But otherwise I agree with you on this part.
Eek. If that was deforming ammo, I seriously doubt that's adequate for use in a combat handgun. It stands a decent chance of penetrating several types of III-A vests, though, since they usually have a V50 (velocity limit for 50% probability of penetration) for 124gr 9mm FMJs of around 1650-1850fps.
I'd give the bigger and slower handgun calibers a slightly larger positive AP rating, and the lighter and faster ones a slightly, or much smaller one. Since .45 ACP tends to penetrate significantly worse than 9x19mm, I'd make a .45 ACP JHP something like 4P/+6. 5.7x28mm JHPs might be 3P/-1, or else around 4P/+2 or something. A .44 Magnum JHP might be 5P/+4, .50 AE JHP 6P/+5, or whatever.
That's exactly how I thought it would be best to work it out. And yes, I'm pretty sure that's realistic, too.
Indeed I do, and some torso hit locations are considered covered by standard-sized insert plates while some aren't.
Yeah, sorry I'm not really helpful here, will have to wait until SR4 hits the shelves here. And I just realized I might have been giving the 5.56x45mm a bit too much credit penetration-wise because the nose-part of the core of the M855 bullet is mild steel, while the core of the bullet of the M80 is made fully of conventional lead alloy. Still, I'd say one having the 5.56x45mm have an AP rating one or two points better than the 7.62x51mm is probably most realistic. I don't have my modern/future SR3 hit location rules on this computer, I'll put that stuff up once I run into the papers I've got them printed on. |
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Oct 26 2005, 04:24 PM
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#58
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Agreed. I suppose I should change "zero" to "tolerable".
So basically a JHP round like that probably wouldn't even deform at all when hitting an unarmored human body...just make a nice, tiny hole. Seems like it would be a really good choice for a handgun when facing armored opponents, though. Let me ask you this...if that 95gr. JHP DOES penetrate a Level IIIA vest, is it likely to have expanded at all by the time it connects with human tissue? I doubt there is much hard documentation on this, but I'd like to know your personal opinion.
Okay...that gives me something to work with. So something like the afore mentioned .357 SIG would be like 3P, AP:+1, right? What about a .40 S&W? 4P/+4 maybe? How about the heavy revolver carts like the .454 Casull and the .500 S&W?
That works for me. I just need to figure out how to do the rest of the rifle ammunition.
Makes sense. I'll wait on you HitLoc system before I do anything else with this.
Like this: 5.56: 4P, AP: -6 7.62: 6P, AP: -4 I was also considering maybe dropping both down to this: 5.56: 3P, AP: -6 7.62: 5P, AP: -4 How does that compare with the other cartridges? I would suppose that, vs. and unarmored target, a 7.62 FMJ's wound cavity would be more similar to a .44 Magnum than to a .50 AE.
Cool beans. I'll wait for those. Incidently, do you have a decent suggestion on how to deal with headshots? Not just with a random HitLoc chart, but for those skilled shooter actively trying to put lead into the target's skull? I'm pretty sure the Delta guys can do it consistantly, at least in close range encounters...maybe less than 10 meters or so. But I'd like to have that as an option for very skilled (10 or more combined dice) shadowrunners. I just don't want it to be remotely easy. |
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Oct 26 2005, 05:17 PM
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#59
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Oh, and here's a slightly OT question that you (AE), raygun, or maybe several others can answer for me.
I'm working on developing a bullpup carbine chambered in .44 Magnum. It's something that is going to be marketed towards security and law enforcement organizations. Basically it is something designed to deal with some of the nastier threats like Orks, Trolls, paracritters, and cybered criminals. I figure it would make a much better patrol rifle than something chambered in 5.56, and should have a larger ammo capacity and be more accurate than a shotgun. Here are my questions: What sort of MV would a 240 gr. .44 Mag round have from a 14" barrel? And what sort of recoil would you experience when shooting said cartridge from a 6.5lb - 7.5lb carbine? Also, from a game perspective, what sort of DC/AP would it have? |
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Oct 26 2005, 06:31 PM
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#60
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
If it was indeed JHP, then the more likely problem is that it'll expand very wide and probably fragment quite a bit, and won't penetrate anywhere near the 12" of tissue that a decent combat handgun load should manage. Ie. a wide but very shallow wound cavity.
My understanding is that even some of the thicker-jacketed FMJs from slower velocity handguns like .45 ACP tend to flatten out on flexible body armor, but that's when they're actually stopped by the armor. What happens when they penetrate probably depends on how much resistance the armor does offer, for what length of time the bullet is pressed against the armor, etc. I would wager it would be slightly flattened out -- but not optimally, in the way it'd expand when tissue gets pressed into the hollow point cavity, but more like someone had whacked the point with a hammer. I might have slightly overstated its likelihood of penetrating III-A, though. Because it's lighter and softer than the 9x19mm 124gr FMJ used for the V50 testing, it would probably not penetrate many such vests at all. It might, but it's definitely not something to count on. And since the terminal effect of such a round is a bit questionable, I certainly wouldn't suggest using them.
Looks about right for the .357 SIG. .40 S&Ws of about the same relative power level as 9x19mm loadings tend to be stopped by vests of the same rating, so maybe make it 4P/+5, or even 4P/+6 instead.
Penetration-wise, the .500 S&W probably stands somewhere around the subcaliber 10 gauge slug you mentioned. The .454 Casull tends to fire slightly lighter (and smaller in diameter) bullets than the .50 AE at quite a bit higher velocities, so maybe it deserves a 6P/+4 with JHPs. Or else just 6P/+5 like the .50 AE.
Well, the problem is that the wound cavity caused by a 146gr spitzer-shaped, somewhat tumble-sensitive 7.82mm diameter FMJ at 2750fps is in fact very unlike anything you're likely to see out of most handguns. Even when considering the potential tumbling, the permanent cavity caused through muscle may well be closer to what the .44 is capable of than the .50. But then there's the temporary cavity and pressure waves which can disrupt certain types of tissue in a much larger area or do other things which I dare not name in case they're all just rumors. But, if from the PoV of the enjoyability of the game 3P and 5P work better than 4P and 6P, then I'd say you can justify those figures just as easily.
Sorry, I'll have to default to not knowing the rules well enough again. Theoretically since 1 success equals 1 Damage, and so increasing the difficulty treshold not only reduces the probability of hitting in the first place but also reduces average damage, then some system where you could increase the treshold by a few points and get a higher reward in increased Damage would work. Does SR4 have a system for Called Shots for Increased Damage?
Raygun will probably know better. It seems going from a 6" revolver barrel to a 20" rifle barrel gets you about 300 extra fps with most .44 Magnum loads. So with average loads, maybe around 1450-1600fps with a 14" barrel. (BTW, since .44 Magnum is a rimmed cartridge and is a bit troublesome in a magazine-fed automatic weapon, a rimless cartridge that just mimics the ballistics of the .44 Magnum might be better.)
Without personal experience of any similar weapon, I'll just post what the Recoil Calculator on Raygun's site has to say about it. Firing a 240gr bullet at 1500fps with 11gr of propellant, a 7lb weapon would have 6.8ft-lbs of recoil energy at 7.9fps, and a recoil impulse of 1.79lb/s. Firing a 62gr bullet at 2800fps with 26.1gr propellant, a fully loaded 6.6lb M4 stands at 4.4ft-lbs @ 6.5fps for energy, 1.23lb/s for impulse. For reference, an 11.2lb M14 firing the 146gr M80 at 2750fps with the 46gr of propellant has a recoil energy of 11ft-lbs @ 7.9fps and a recoil impulse of 2.6lb/s. So it'd be noticeably stiffer than the M4, but far milder than an M14. [Edit]A pretty close match would be the recoil on an AKM. At 8.4lbs, firing a 123gr bullet at 2330fps with 30 grains of propellant, it stands at 6.3ft-lbs @ 7fps for energy, 1.8lb/s for impulse. So the .44 Magnum carbine would be very, very close to a 7.62x39mm assault rifle that weighs 3kg empty, recoil-wise.[/Edit]
It's pretty close to .50 AE ballistics, so 6P/+5 would work. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Oct 26 2005, 07:55 PM |
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Oct 26 2005, 10:03 PM
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#61
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Yeah, probably closer to the lower end of that range with most factory loads. The Ruger 99/44 puts out ballistics at the upper end of that range with 240 grain loads, but it has 18.5" barrel.
Right. .44 Auto Mag (which I personally think would make a huge comeback considering the SR universe) would work a lot better in that case.
All looks good to me (well, except Colt's listed velocity for M855 from an M4 is 2900 fps, which would put it at 4.8 fpe @ 7 fps with an impulse of 1.26 lbs/s; not a big deal). You might want to figure a bit closer to 1,400 fps for the average .44 Mag load, but there are certainly loads that would look like this. However, I think it might be a better idea to bypass the whole .44 Mag bullpup thing and go with something that's a little more powerful and has been developed to a greater degree, like a .458 SOCOM, .50 Beowulf, .499 Leitner-Wise, etc... out of, say, a Bushmaster M17S. Hell, an even simpler approach would be to start handing out sabot slug loads (Winchester Supreme Partition Gold, Remington Ultra Bonded Sabot Slug, etc...) with issue 12-gauge shotguns. |
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Oct 27 2005, 12:22 PM
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#62
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
That's enlightening.
Roger that. .357 SIG = teh suck.
Hmmm....so 9P or 10P for the .500 S&W? And would it be +3/+4 AP? The rest sounds cool...I'll probably go with 6P/+4 for the .454 just to have some variance.
Cool beans. That's my goal. I want someone who knows his(her) shit to look at my revised rules and say (that pretty much makes sense) rather than look at them and say (What the fuck was THIS idiot thinking???).
Yeah, it does...but I don't like it. Here's what the book has to say about called shots: Called shot to ignore armor: negative modifier = armor rating. If successful, the target rolls only body to resist, not armor. Philosophy: the better the armor rating, the more of the body it protects and the harder it is to bypass. Why this stinks: while this works okay for your handgun calibers, things start to get really wonky with rifle ammo. If the round negates most but not all of the target's armor, you often come out doing more damage with a center-mass shot than trying to bypass the armor with a called shot. Target a vital area to increase damage: for every +1 damage, you lose 1 die If you want to increase the damage by 3, you only lose 3 dice. Why this stinks: It's TOO good. Normally it takes 3 dice to increase the damage one box. With this method, you are basically buying up automatic successes. The only downside is it becomes easier for your opponent to DODGE out of the way of your shots, since you will be getting fewer hits on the attack roll. The other two called shot options have to do with GM fiat or wonky stuff like shooting a gun out of someone's hand (which sould be an order of magnitude tougher than getting a head-shot). When I think of engaging a target and attempting a head shot, I'm expecting my hit percentage to drop about 85%, maybe more. I was thinking that maybe doubling the damage total damage, but added a threshold difficulty would make it usable. Something like this maybe: Head Shots: Target < 5m away: Threshold 4, Damage: base x 2 Target 5m-10m away: Threshold 6, Damage: base x2 Target 10m-20m away: Threshold 8, Damage: base x2 I don't think I would allow a head shot with iron sights on a target much further away than that, but perhaps I am just REALLY underestimating the level of skill possessed by your average Delta Operator.
Since Raygun replied before I got a chance to, I'll go ahead and address the rest of this with my reply to his post. |
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Oct 27 2005, 12:41 PM
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#63
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Right. Back when I first started doing custom firearm rules for SR2, I originally had the Ares Predator chambered in .44 Auto Mag. I hadn't thought about that caliber for this weapon, but it sounds like a better idea.
This is what I found about the Beowulf and the SOCOM (couldn't find anything on the Leitner-Wise w/a quick search) .458 SOCOM 300 gr. @ 2100 fps 500 gr. @ 1350 fps .50 Beowulf 325 gr. @ 1950 fps 400 gr. @ 1800 fps Wow...that certainly blows the .44 Mag clean out of the water. What would it be like to shoot either of those cartridges, though? I have a feeling that if felt recoil is anything worse than a 12 gauge with 3" shells, there's no way it would be purchased en masse by any LE or Sec operation. Though I could easily see HTR teams and the like having a few of them. How would something like those two cartridges compare to the 12 gauge slugs you linked to in terms of termal ballistics? Would you rather shoot at a cybered Ork with the .458 SOCOM, the .50 Beowulf, or the 12-gauge saboted slug? Man...I could spend an entire weekend just sitting around with a couple cases of beer talking shop with you guys.... :spin: |
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Oct 27 2005, 12:42 PM
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#64
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Even though it's been used to take down elephants, that might be a bit much. Maybe something like 7P/+5 or 8P/+7 with JHPs. I didn't think of the abstraction of what damage done "through" armor represents in this system when I said it might penetrate as well as the 10G subcaliber slug.
Doubling the damage might be bad rules-wise, in that it might make calling a shot to the head nearly always a bad idea with less powerful weapons, while making them total overkill on the more powerful ones. The latter isn't necessarily unrealistic, of course, but the former might be problematic. For example, if the Treshold increases by 4 but you only get 3 more points of damage (like when firing 9x19mm JHPs), then it'd make absolutely no sense at all to aim for the head. Also, if at all possible, a single set of modifiers for all ranges would be optimal. While different tables for modifiers when firing in different ways at different ranges could produce very realistic results, it could also end up slowing down combat quite a bit. From what I understand about the SR4 combat system, I'd think something like +2 Threshold = +3 Damage could be a decent baseline for called shots for more damage. But that could very well be unbalanced if there are some common modifiers in play that I'm unaware of, or if the advantage is otherwise often on the shooter in combat. |
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Oct 27 2005, 01:26 PM
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#65
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
[Stopgap response until Raygun gets back.] Assuming the .458 SOCOM uses about 45 grains of powder (could be way off), out of a 7lb gun the 300 grainer at 2100fps stands at 28.6ft-lbs @ 16.2fps and 3.59lb/s for recoil energy and impulse. Assuming the .50 Beowulf uses about 50 grains (again, could be way off), out of a 7lb gun the 400 grainer at 1800fps would produce 34.9ft-lbs @ 17.9fps and 4.08lb/s. Accordingly to a Defense Review article, the .499 Leitner-Wise can push a 400 grain bullet at 1980fps, which with 60 grains of propellant out of a 7lb gun adds up to 45.3ft-lbs @ 20.4fps and 4.58lb/s. It strikes me that I have no idea what the propellant weight of common shotgun loadings are. Assuming it's around 60 grains (almost guaranteed to be way off), a 7lb shotgun firing the 385 grain Winchester Partition Gold slug at 2000fps gets 43.5ft-lbs @ 20fps and 4.48lb/s. I originally figured you wanted this weapon to be controllable on fully automatic, which is why I didn't mention the more powerful calibers such weapons are sometimes chambered in. If these guns are only supposed to be fired on semi-automatic, then any of the above certainly makes more sense. They are certainly in a whole different class than a .44 Auto Magnum. I won't comment on how those calibers relate to the 12G sabot slugs in terminal ballistics, because I have no idea what the diameter of projectile is. They seem to fit around .500 S&W revolver ballistics (440gr @ 1625fps from a 8-3/8" barrel) or slightly above, though. Sidetrack:
I think I'm missing something about how much extra velocity you get with more barrel length with such handgun cartridges? The Guns & Ammo I'm using for reference has 6 240gr loads tested out of 6 - 8.27" barrels, ranging from 1200 to 1375fps, averaging at about 1300fps, while the article about the Ruger 99/44 mentions two velocities for 240gr: 1643fps and 1733fps. Using a straight progression from 1300fps at 8" to 1688fps at 18.5" would mean an average of 1522fps at 14" -- hardly the most accurate method of estimating the velocity, but it makes 1400fps seem a tad low. Don't know what I was thinking about with the M4 velocity with M855. |
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Oct 27 2005, 07:01 PM
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#66
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
I think we're muddying the water with too many calibers. If we establish a system for .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .45 ACP, 9mm parabellum, and .380 in handguns, and 5.56, 7.62, and .50 BMG in assault rifles, and 2.75 and 3 inch 12 guage, we can later expand that system to include other calibers.
In the armor discussion, we've got to keep three things front and center about the rules: first, if modified DV is less than modified ballistic, damage is stun - the bullet does not penetrate. So an Armor Jacket, ballistic 8, does stop heavy pistol ammo most of the time. Second, we're talking a lot about averages, an average BOD 3 human with an armor jacket vs. a heavy pistol rolls ten dice and scores 3 successes. But when you actually roll dice, the human could come up with 6 successes, or 10, or 0. With RL laborotory physics, a IIIA stops a .45 every time. In SR4, there is going to be a lot of variation from hit to hit. Third, SR doesn't use hit locations! A lot of the discussion has been "IIIA stops 9mm, so how do we make it do that in the game?" Well, a IIIA vest doesn't do a thing vs. 9mm if you get hit in the face. So we can't make rules where an armor vest always stops a handgun round, because without hit locations, anyone wearing a vest would be totally immune to handgun fire. |
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Oct 27 2005, 07:42 PM
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#67
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
I know you didn't mean that. I know you didn't mean that, but why you gotta treat me like that, baby? |
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Oct 27 2005, 07:43 PM
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#68
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
I think there is plenty of room for more than just the calibers you mentioned. There are a lot of gaps to be filled, ESPECIALLY between the 7.62x51mm and .50BMG. I'm not putting together house rules that I explect the community at large to be the slightest bit interested in. I'm trying to put together something for my campaign only...and I'm looking for people with RL and SR expertise to assist me in the translation.
Early on in this thread I said we should abandon the "If Modified DV is = or < Ballistic, then damage is Stun" rule until we got the rest of the math settled. Personally I think that rule is poorly implemented anyway, and just doesn't make much sense in light of the RAW.
Now here you make an EXCELLENT point. I see a couple of ways to handle this. Option 1: Use hit locations and have the protected areas of, say a Level III A vest, offer automatic successes. The upside of this is more consistant performance from appropriate levels of body armor and fewer dice to roll. The downside is you lose some of the excitment that the random die roll introuduces, and players will be tempted into doing a lot more metagaming calculations when picking their gear. Also, you would have to adjust the AP ratings so they either add or take away from the automatic successes. That sounds nice...it allows the values themselves to stay relatively low. Option 2: Have the actual resistance test represent where the round hits in relation to the armor. For example, if you only roll a success or two vs. a cartridge that your armor is rated for, that means the projectile might have hit the very edge of the protected zone, possibly fragmenting and sending bits of bullet into your side or something. Option 1 sounds like a better solution, but probably requires a LOT of testing and number/scenario running to isolate any anomalies the system might create. Option 2 is more in the spirit of how SR handles things, and would require much less revision/testing, but it just doesn't sit really well with me for some reason. Too much abstraction for an amature gun-nut like me, I guess.
Exactly. Which is why I've asked AE to post an electronic format of his HitLoc rules. The way I see it, if you can eliminate the armor roll for resistance, then it shouldn't slow things down too much to have a hitlocation roll. One more thing...if you can't already tell, I'm perfectly okay with folding, spindling, and mutilating the current ruleset to suit my whims. |
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Oct 27 2005, 07:49 PM
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#69
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Maybe he meant .50 Beowulf instead of .50 BGM for assault rifles. Then again, calling something chambered in .50 Beowulf an assault rifle is like calling an Aircraft Carrier a "boat".... |
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Oct 27 2005, 09:49 PM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
The One Ronin:
I should have ommitted the word "assault" and just left "rifles". With damage codes for those rounds, we would have the basis for the statistics for a number of assault and sniper rifles. It would be a place to start that could be expanded later. It is better to start simply, but plan for a larger future (leaving space, for example, to retrofit ARSENAL). Regarding the idea of designing a rules system just for you and unintelligible to anyone who isn't a gunslinger/ballistics expert, it's a ridiculous waste of time. Especially in the very public Dumpshock forums, we, the Dumpshockers who have seen a firearm someplace other than a comic book, have a responsibility to the SR community to produce rules that are a little bit more like reality than canon. Raygun's SR3 site is an excellent example; he has rules that make sense to people like us, but don't leave the civilians out. The less modification we make, the easier it will be to understand. If an error has to be made, better to make it on the side of playability, not real-world complexity. What we do we do for the game, the community, and - incidentally - ourselves. |
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Oct 27 2005, 10:29 PM
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#71
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Well, the guy I buy my AR15 stuff from happens to deal Alexander Arms as well, so I did get the chance a while back (about a year ago) to put some .50 Beowulf through a 16" carbine. Recoil is pretty stout (the proverbial "kicks like a mule" could apply). It's not unmanageable (I imagine that a decent recoil pad would make it much easier to cope with), but it may be impossible to overstate how pointless going full-auto would be. There's no doubt that you're shooting, and there's no doubt that whatever you hit will be hurting.
Actually, recoil characteristics from a 16" Beowulf Entry Rifle are pretty much identical to recoil from a 12 gauge 3" rifled slug load from a Remington 870. But with the Beowulf being a semi-auto, it will spread that energy over a longer period of time, making the recoil actually feel slightly less severe. I got the loading data from Alexander Arms and Alliant Powder. Beowulf: 334 @ 1900, 37.7 grains Lil Gun, 7.25 lbs = 25.2 fpe @ 15 fps, 3.48 lbs/s Rem 870: 437.5 @ 1538, 34 grains Herco, 7.25 lbs = 25.5 fpe @ 15.1 fps, 3.59 lbs/s Beowulf: 400 @ 1800, 48.1 grains Reloder 7, 7.25 lbs = 33.2 fpe @ 17.1 fps, 4.05 lbs/s Rem 870: 437.5 @ 1690, 49 grains Blue Dot, 7.25 lbs = 34.2 fpe @ 17.4 fps, 4.15 lbs/s Anyway, I don't think it would be a terribly widespread thing, but if said department has to particularly rough, troll-thick neigborhoods, they may very likely go with something like that. But then, they could probably do just as well with auto shotguns (say, Saiga 12's) and those slug loads I mentioned for much less expense.
I think either way, you're going to ruin his day. The slugs are designed to expand, whereas you can get FMJ loads for the .50 Beowulf and others, so there might be a slight advantage for the beefy rifle cartridges there. There's certainly an accuracy advantage for the rifle cartridges. They're pretty good out to 400 meters, whereas the slugs, without a rifld barrel, are going to be much more difficult beyond 50-75m.
:) Fun, isn't it?
They're both .500" (the Winchester load uses a 385 grain Nosler Partition bullet, IIRC). Considering similar bullet contruction and impact velocity, terminal ballistics should be pretty darn near identical.
Gotta go to work... I'll get back to you on this. |
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Oct 28 2005, 01:36 PM
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#72
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
I see what you mean. I agree that it doesn't make any sense...at least right now, to have something like three different cartridges that all do 5P/+5. But I feel we need more initial variance than just 5.56/7.62/.50BMG. To me, my initial list of calibers does exactly that...gives a reasonable measure of the more commonly available/used calibers across the different platforms. While I agree that having separate listings for the 9x19mm parabellum and the 9x21mm IMI is silly, I feel there IS a need for things like the .45 ACP, .40 S&W, 10mm Auto (or SR analogue), as well as the .300 Winchester, .338 Lapua, and .408 CheyTac. Indeed, not all of this stuff is going to be commonly found in the hands of typical shadowrunners, but I feel it needs to be there for scale and variety. I feel that if we have at least one cartridge for each DV from 2 to 15, then we have a start. And I don't feel the need to leave any room for ARSENAL. Once you get the ammunition figured out, all you have to do is decide what caliber the new weapon is chambered in, and then you are done. No conversions necessary unless you decide to start inventing ammunition.
Waste of time for whom? I'm the one asking for help with the ruleset, so it's obviously worth my time. I'm pretty sure Raygun and AE don't mind helping me out...if they did, then they wouldn't be posting.
I don't have any such responsibility. First off, most Dumpshockers, and SR gamers in general could care less about this sort of stuff. Just like I don't know a damn thing about pharmacuticals and could care less about how "unrealistic" SR's rules are for handling drugs/chemicals. If someone IS interested in having firearms rules that make sense, I'm sure they are more than welcome to ask the likes of Raygun, AE, Arethusa, and others who are pretty much the board experts in that field. I even try to help from time to time with the little knowledge I have to offer. But that does not translate into a responsibility for me to make my houserules "vanilla" enough for even the casual SR gamer to use. Like any other house ruleset posted in this forum, it's up to the player to take it or leave it. I'm sure that once I'm happy with what people have helped me put together here, 99% of the dumpshockers who bother to look at this thread will express zero interest. That's fine with me. Hell, if Raygun on a whim asked me to help him update his SR3 site to incorporate SR4 rules (that should be about the time hell freezes over), I would be much more likely to keep things as simple as possible. But I'm not creating content for a public website for SR4. I'm sculpting house rules for my game.
Dude, I appreciate your altruism. I really do. You are likely a much better person than me. I just don't have the time or inclination to consider the SR community's feelings when assembling my house rules. Nor do I think anyone here gives a shit about mine. P.S. Zen, I apologize if this post sounds hostile. You have given me some really good ideas/food for thought, and I don't want you to think that my opinion about this in any way detracts from my appreciation of your input. |
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Oct 28 2005, 09:09 PM
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#73
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Okay, I'm sure AE and Raygun are gonna hate me for this, but I'm going to do it anyway.
I've been thinking about Zen's post...about how a vest rated to stop a .44 Mag round will do it every time from every angle. With the numbers we are using, at BEST a Level III-A (ballistic: 9) vest will stop a .44 Mag (5P/+4) only half of the time. I'm thinking we need more consistancy in how well the armor actually stops the rounds. We can use AE's hitloc system to account for the variability in damage. For example: Runner A shoots his 9mm pistol at Joe Secguard. Joe is wearing a level IIIA vest under his uniform. The vest is rated to stop 9mm ammunition, so it should stop the shot without dealing any significant damage. However, we can't have Joe be completely immune to 9mm fire. So we use a hitloc system to determine where the round hits. If it hits the armor, Joe is golden. If it hits an area not protected by the armor, he is in trouble. So that's our philiosophy. How do we put that in game mechanics? Well, I was thinking that instead of the Ballistic Rating and AP ratings = more or less dice for the resistance roll, have them be automatic successes. This has a couple of different effects. #1: Armor guaranteed to stop a "X" caliber WILL stop "X" caliber. Using a hitloc system, we can determine if the round actually hits the armor or not. That way the guy in the Level IIIA isn't automatically immune to handgun fire. That 9mm round will ruin Joe Secguard's day if it hits his arm or leg instead of the vest. #2: Easier math + less die rolling. All you have to do is add the Ballistic Rating to the weapon's AP rating (or subtract if the AP is negative), then subtract it from the total damage (weapon DV + Net hits) to determine total damage. Well, I suppose you can keep the body resistance test too. #3: We can implement the "Damage changed to stun" rule like this: If the Modified Armor rating (Ballistic +/- AP rating) is equal to or greater than the base damage done, any damage received after the resistance test is stun. Here's an example with our ubiquitous Level III A vest and .44 Magnum. .44 Magnum JHP: 5P, AP: +2 Level III A vest: Ballistic 4 Scenario 1 Bob punk shoots his .44 at Joe Secguard and scores 1 net hit. Hitloc roll determines that the round hits Joe square in the torso. Joe is wearing a level III A vest. The total armor rating (ballistic + AP) is 6, which means Joe gets 6 auto successes. Bob's net his raises the total DV to 6, but the auto successes from the armor negate it completely. Joe doesn't even have to roll body because he take no damage at all. Scenario 2 Delta Dave, a crack shot with his .44 Mag, takes a shot at Joe Secguard. Dave gets 5 net hits. Hitloc says the shot hits Joe square in the vest. Again, Joe gets 6 auto successes from the armor. But Dave's total DV is 10. Well, since the total armor rating (ballistic 4 + AP 2) is greater than the base damage of the weapon (5P), all the damage is Stun. Dave's shot hits one of the thinner layers of vest, and gives Joe a nasty bruise (4Stun...probably 3Stun after the body resistance test) So before I go any futher...why don't you guys tell me what's fucked up about this and why it doesn't make sense. :grinbig: |
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Oct 28 2005, 11:54 PM
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#74
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
OneRonin:
An actual hit location system would be awfully complicated. It would also invite the players to attempt annoying special affects - "I cut him above the eyes to blind him with blood." "I shoot his trigger finger off." But the immunity problem remains. So here's a suggestion for your system. Give armor a Threshold rating, and apply it to the to-hit roll. For example, a duster could have Threshold 3, requiring three hits to shoot the target in an unarmored area. 1 or 2 hits means the attack hits the armor. It's easier than trying to determine exactly where, but addresses body coverage. Potententially there's a problem with 100% coverage armor being absolutely bulletproof, though. |
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Oct 29 2005, 12:45 AM
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#75
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Yes it does, if you totally fuck up the rules. In the 3 years of running shadowrun with my house rules, I never had a player attempting something that stupid. |
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