Ehhh...I might have more experience in actually using firearms, but that doesn't mean (by a long shot) that I know more about them.

In my experience, the typical Mech Inf soldier is extremely familiar with using the M16 (suppose it's the M4 now in the US Army), and pretty darned familiar with using the other common weapon systems (M249 SAW, M203, M-60). He knows how to use those weapon systems to kill the enemy, and he has a decent idea of effective engagement ranges, but that's about it. He doesn't have a clue about muzzel velocity, tissue/hard substance penetration, ammo vs. body armor performance, terminal ballistics, or anything of that nature. I only know a bit about that stuff because I am a voracious reader...and most of the knowledge I have regarding firearms was acquired AFTER I left the military.

So real-world experience does count for something...but the academic stuff, I think, is more useful for what I'm trying to accomplish.

Plus it's fun as shit to talk to someone who knows a lot about guns...and I'm a geek like that.

If you want to go hardcore with the suspension of disbelief, then some new calibers are kind of necessary. Just think of how many of the calibers commonly used now IRL have been developed in the last 60-70 years.

Of course, you could say nearly everything has already been invented so there's nothing new left to do, but there are always some things you could add, like a few caseless pistol and rifle cartridges, larger bore diameter (say, around 7mm) versions of the basic concept of 5.7x28mm and 4.6x30mm, perhaps a few more midrange assault rifle calibers (similar to 6.8x43mm SPC, etc.). Maybe even a few calibers purpose built for specific new bullet designs, like something ballistically similar to a .44 Magnum meant for firing explosive bullets out of carbines, that sort of thing.

Of course most of these things wouldn't be very or at all useful IRL right now, but they might be in the 6th World ca. 2050-2075. Most importantly, they make the guns and ammo feel more like Shadowrun, and not just RL current guns with different names. Unless, of course, that's the way you want to play SR.

This one depends on the description of EX Explosive ammunition. There exist explosive bullet designs for small arms that penetrate armor better than FMJs, in some cases about as well as tungsten APDS. Though I have a hunch you won't be too happy with that kind of interpretation of EX-Ex.

You make some very good points, AE.

First off, I have a spreadsheet that I've put together already...probably about a month ago, that has about 40 different cartridges in it...including the FN 5.7mm, the HK 4.6mm, the 6.8 SPC (personal fav), the 6.5 Grendel, .500 S&W, .408 CheyTac (another fav), .338 Lapua, and even some of the more esoteric handgun cartridges like the .400 COR-BON and the .45 Super. I even sort of came up with a few different cailbers for caseless ammo as well.

However, the bottom line here is I want to start off with stuff we know. Ammo that is out there and that we have hard performance data on. Once we categorize those common cartridges, it should be easy to figure out where the rest of the ammo (old and new) stands.

BTW, I really like the .44 Mag-type round fired from a carbine idea. Sounds like a SR version of the Winchester 1873...might be a really neat weapon for runners.

As long as you keep in mind that the .338 Lapua Magnum and possibly the 4.6x30mm and 5.7x28mm are in a whole different class when to comes to likelihood of still being around in significant numbers in the 2070s than, say, 6.5 Grendel. Judging from the latest comments I read from Raygun about the whole XM8 & potential caliber switch thing, the 6.5 Grendel is extremely unlikely to go anywhere. Of course, should the 6.8x43mm somehow take off, they just might dig the 6.5 up again as well.

As I most certainly have in my spreadsheet. I just didn't want to make an overwhelming list of calibers for this threat. But I suppose it will do more good to have that whole thing posted than just what is up there now.

Indeed. In my follow-up to this post, I'll go ahead and put everything I have.

A-HA! This is the kind of insight I was talking about. Since 100% of the shooting I do now is on the range, I always get the cheapest ball ammo. Add to that I always figure that Shadowrunners, and indeed their security counterparts would be far more likely to load FMJ rounds because of the increased effectiveness of body armor vs. JHP ammo.

So here's a question. Let's say you assume that .44 Mags, 10mm Auto, and the like are most commonly sold as JHPs, and the damage code is set to reflect that. Do we, in turn, increase the effectiveness of armor vs. said ammunition?

That's another possibility. But I think I'd rather the ammo work like it does in real life.

I consider that a compliment!

Okay, so lets say we set 12-gauge damage for 3" and lower to 8P, and for 3.5" and larger to 9P. Makes sense to me.

So that's the kind of input I've been looking for. Like I said, not all of my speculation is going to make sense from a RL perspective, and that's why I'm putting this info up on the boards rather than just writing it up the way I think it should be and not sharing it.

On a final note, how do you feel about SMGs that fire standard pistol caliber rounds like 9mm, .40S&W, .45 ACP, etc?

Hmm... I think you may be under-estimating the Assault rifles and overestimating the heavy pistols. We actually just had a thread here about the 5.56mm and its tendency to fragment inside targets at speeds over 2,700 fps.

Austere posted these:
.45 ACP
5.56x45mm NATO M855

My biggest annoyance with SR4 firearms is that they give the Heavy Pistols and the Assault Rifles the same AP -1 armor penetration. The assault rifle should have more AP. I'd be okay with them having the same 5P damage code, but reducing the assault rifle's damage seems a mistake to me. People shouldn't be more dangerous with a pistol than with an assault rifle, and in game balance terms, especially not when the pistol already has the advantage of being small enough to be concealed under somebody's jacket and is far less expensive.

I think it's safe to say that will make little to no difference in the 2070s for most or all of the listed handgun calibers. The .454 Casull is probably the only one of the above which could reliably penetrate the most common form of body armor worn today (level III-A) even with FMJ ammunition, and in 70 years FMJ is still FMJ but body armor is likely to get better.

Looking through some tables on a G&A I have lying around, I underestimated how common FMJ rounds for handguns are. As you said, they certainly are used, thanks to being relatively inexpensive. But because they still won't penetrate the most common forms of flexible, concealable body armor when fired out of handguns chambered for most of the calibers mentioned above, shadowrunners will have to look for solutions to the armor problem elsewhere. Calibers similar to the 5.7x28mm/4.6x30mm, actual armor piercing ammunition, called shots to the groin, not counting on handguns where body armor exists, or something else.

Is this a trick question? Absolutely.

Damage Code -wise? Not sure. Because of the very small scale of potential DCs you have to work with, it might be best for them to do the same amount of Damage as handguns chambered for the same round. Otherwise you'd get into rather silly situations like a .40 S&W out of a 12" barrel doing the same damage as a .44 Magnum -- .400" 165gr @ 1300fps and .429" 240gr @ 1375fps are two very different things.

Speaking of which, I'm not quite comfortable with the 10mm Auto doing the same damage as a .44 Magnum. I realize that the granularity of the system will require compromises, but if at all possible I'd try to compromise elsewhere. As much as it might pain me to do so, I'd rather scrap the 10mm Auto altogether and replace it with some fictional and significantly more powerful 10mm rimless cartridge which might do the same damage.

What that comes down to is whether TheOneRonin assumes fragmenting FMJs are still going to be common for rifle-caliber weapons in the military in the 2070s and whether he wants to deal with the added complexities that brings with it. If he does, then in the intervening 70 years we'd probably start seeing similarly designed FMJs for 7.62x51mm, 5.45x39mm, and all other common military rifle calibers.

Then you'd have to decide how you're going to deal with the effects through body armor of such ammunition, and what to do with the issue of the fragmentation velocity limit: Damage dropping at range? What about carbines etc?

Talking about an M855 fired out of an M16A2 at 25 meters at an unarmored human, on that scale I'd probably place it at 5P (and I'd place a .45 ACP FMJ-RN at 3P).

Yes, at velocities in excess of 2700 FPS, the 5.56 NATO round does have a tendancy to fragment upon hitting human tissue. But that doesn't happen all of the time, and certainly won't happen if the target is A) far enough away for the projectile's velocity to be below 2700 FPS, or B) the target is wearing a high enough level of body armor to reduce the effective velocity of the round to below 2700 FPS, or C) you are firing the 5.56 round from a carbine and the 5.56 never gets up to that velocity in the first place. The lethality of the 5.56mm was a big issue with the guys in Somolia back in '93. It just didn't kill as effectively as the soldiers wanted it to, and it would often take many hits to drop a single somali militiaman.

The deal here is I don't want the damage rating of each caliber of ammunition be dependant on 100 different conditions. Surely we could add stuff like a drop in DC at each range category, and a variable DC dependant upon barrel length, or even a random roll to see if the 5.56mm projectile fragments once inside the target's body. But that is just a little more complication than I'm looking for. I suppose my disbelief is more easily suspended than others, but I'm actually okay with a slow, heavy, large diameter projectile doing more raw tissue damage than a small diameter, light weight, high-velocity projectile.

I see where you are coming from. SR3 had the same basic problem with Heavy Pistols doing 9M and Assault Rifles doing 8M. That's part of why I'm doing all this work. I want the weapon systems to be about as effective in the game as they are IRL. However, given the SR4 ruleset, you can't model it as close as I'd like without having a system that's way to slow and clunky. So I make some compromises.

In this case, a 5.56mm assault rifle round is going to, by default, not fragment inside the target, likely blow clean through, and do about as much tissue damage as a .40S&W. However, if the target is wearing armor that will completely stop that .40 cal round, he will likely still get completely drilled by the 5.56mm round. Therein is your tradeoff.

Like I said earlier, I have not yet included AP ratings for the ammunition listed, but once I do the difference between a .40S&W and a 5.56mm will be pretty obvious.

Austere, where do you stand on this? Do you think the 5.56mm and above cartridges are too low in their damage codes when compared to the pistol ammo? Think I should either bump up the rifles or drop down the pistols?

If you're going to go with the assumption that rifle caliber FMJs as a rule won't fragment when they hit tissue at high velocities, then no. In fact, just looking at the permanent wound cavity caused, if a 5.56x45mm FMJ did not deform at all, I'd say 4P might even be too much.

But then again, the terminal ballistics of high velocity solid bullets is pretty arcane. Like I mentioned in the above message, with the little I know, I wouldn't dare claim the figures you put up are unrealistic.

Good point. If FMJ and JHP will have about the same effect on a target with body armor, I would much prefer to carry JHP rounds, in case my target is unarmored or if I manage to hit an unarmored spot on the target.

Makes sense. Perhaps there would be a move towards the 5.7mm and it's ilk, or maybe a surge in the sales of sub-caliber, saboted projectiles?

D'oh! Shame on me for not being more explicit in my question. If the JHP rounds perform poorly against armor (and they do), then how much more poorly? What numbers do we use to illustrate the reduction in performance. Here's where game mechanics become an issue.

Makes sense I suppose there is no harm at all in keeping SMGs at the same DC as their pistol counterparts. They already have the advantage of higher ammo capacity and burst/full auto capability.

I've been thinking a lot on this one. Most of the stuff I've read about the 10mm says how much more powerful it is than the .40S&W and other similar calibers, but the numbers don't add up. The mass/velocity ratio isn't that far from a standard .40S&W...at least not far enough to make a drastic difference. Personally, I'd like to see a revised 10mm or 11mm high-energy handgun round that comes pretty close to .44 mag ballistics. Any suggestions on what it would look like stats wise (Mass/muzzle velocity/projectile diameter)?

Much depends on just how common you make body armor in your games. If a lot of street criminals start wearing body armor, then something is definitely going to happen. What, exactly, that something is is up to you.

Small diameter and high velocity is one way to go, and either the 5.7x28 or the sabots work. The problem with the 5.7-route is that you're then stuck with either making really small holes in the target or getting very little penetration, ie. you better pray you don't need to take down a troll. The problem with sabots is that there's only so much you can achieve with them in a handgun, considering the total length of the cartridge, barrel length/propellant type and feed problems.

Who knows, maybe criminal organisations would start pumping out mild steel core bullets in illegal workshops. Right now, full-caliber steel bullets fired from a 9x19mm or anything bigger should easily penetrate any flexible body armor and they can make decent-sized wounds (the steel core can be pretty blunt, which together with a higher velocity can make a real difference).

Here's one rather interesting armor piercing bullet design Raygun once tipped me on to. Armor piercing by definition and thus not likely to be widespread in the civilian market, and the tissue left inside the wound cavity because of the tubular design might slow down bleeding, but it shouldn't be too bothered by any flexible body armor when fired from any serious handgun.

Well, I think there will have to be some figures set down as to the armor ratings of common forms of body armor before answering that. As a general guideline I'd say anything up to and including .50 AE JHPs could be stopped by the heaviest forms of flexible body armor commonly in use (might not be categorically true in 2005, should be true in 2070). Have you decided on hit locations?

It's all relative. To quote Raygun, "It's probably the most powerful of the practical automatic handgun cartridges, meaning that, assuming some training, most human beings should be able to handle it." It's just that something as powerful as a .44 Magnum fired out of a semi-automatic pistol is not really practical for defense in the modern world -- hence why semi-automatic pistols in calibers as powerful as .44 Magnum aren't very common.

If you're comparing the bullet weights, velocities and muzzle energies of different loadings marketed for these calibers, you should keep in mind that most 10mm Auto loads are quite a bit calmer than what the caliber is capable of. At the high end, 10mm Auto is pushing 700ft-lbs while .40 S&W is pushing 500ft-lbs -- while certain .44 Magnum loads can get to 1200ft-lbs and beyond.

If you're serious about it encroaching on .44 Magnum territory, then in a 11mm bore diameter, 5" barreled pistol we'd probably be looking at 240gr bullets at 1250-1300fps (833-901ft-lbs). At 10mm, make that 200gr @ 1375-1425fps (840-902ft-lbs).

If firing JHPs, I'd say 6P is fine for the .50 AE. While it's not anywhere near a 7.62x51mm FMJ kinetic energy -wise, it's actually going to make a far bigger permanent cavity through most tissues. A deforming 7.62x51mm is going to totally fuck up a human, though.

BTW, you might want to raise .500 S&W to 7P, and perhaps drop the .510 Whisper FMJ to 6P. A sharp spitzer bullet moving at subsonic velocities will make a far smaller wound cavity than a JHP or a hard cast flatnose at 1600fps, even if the former weighs twice as much. Also, according to Raygun's site, there are no .510 Whisper FMJs.

[Corrected ]

Yeah, I agree. Considering there aren't any other bullets for .50 AE but JHP, I think that putting it on par with 7.62x51mm FMJ is acceptable, with AP in favor of the 7.62x51mm, of course.

Yeah, but you kind of have to put that into perspective. Those are two giant bullets making right giant holes. One would tend to make giant, deep holes, against tissue, the other will make gianter (heh), deeper holes. Either way, you're not walking home. Giving one a huge advantage over the other probably wouldn't be right, considering the crappy scaling and all. But one point... not a big deal, I guess.

There's a company called HJ Ballistic Research that makes and sells .510" bullets that expand reliably at subsonic velocities (pretty much with the big Whispers in mind), so it's not out of the question to consider that.

Which should probably be fixed. It can use any .510" bullet, including FMJ. But considering the specialization of that kind of round, there's not a whole lot of point in using cheapy FMJs, except for maybe practice.

I'm going to have to read the rest of this thread more closely (kind of skipped through it). The problem with me here is that I haven't paid a lot of attention to SR4 and I'm not sure how the new damage system works, so it's all looking like jibberish at the moment.

Agreed, and looking at the numbers again I guess the .510 deserves a damage code higher than 7.62x51mm. But then I'm wondering, wouldn't a .50 AE JHP create larger wounds through humans than a subsonic .510" spitzer FMJ? After all, it's flatter, wider and faster, and both are going to completely penetrate a human from any sane shooting angle. On the other hand, there needs to be some serious balancing issues with the ultra-heavy handguns if their Damage ratings are in the 8P-10P range.

That's kind of what I figured, only for some reason I completely ignored the possibility of handloading such rounds. I should probably have just noted that FMJ is not likely "typical projectile configuration" for .510 Whisper.

Oh, absolutely. That sort of thing definitely deserves a 9P.

I have no idea how a .510 spitzer FMJ is going to react terminally at subsonic velocities. I've never seen any data that has dealt with it. We can assume that it's just going to continue point forward (that is a lot of inertia to counter), and in that case, you're still dealing with a hole bigger than a .308 FMJ is likely to leave. But, it might decide to yaw or tumble instead, and when would that occur? A tumbling 660 grain bullet with about a 4/1 length/diameter ratio would be very, very bad news. Honestly, I don't know. There's a lot you have to kind of compress into one number within a really tight scale that I currently have very little knowledge about.

It's been a problem since I started making rules for these things. I get the "Are you insane?" treatment from one side, "More! more!" from the Lollypop Guild, and a kind of sympathetic shrug from those who know a thing or two about guns and Shadowrun. I guess the problem is that there really are handguns that are capable of that kind of thing and that's why I'm not against the idea of characters having access to them. They'd be there.

As Zen pointed out, they are big, heavy, loud, they recoil a lot, cost a lot, and they make a huge fireball. So you balance it out by bumping up recoil, chopping conceal, hitting them in the pocketbook for ammo and maintenance, reducing perception modifiers and controlling availability. Pretty much how it works in reality. Aside from recoil and concealability, those are all fairly practical matters that GMs rarely seem to take into account during game play. But when you're forced to consider 9-foot-tall 1,000-pound people as potential threats, your perception would likely shift a bit in relation to what you're willing to deal with carrying around, so that should be factored as well.

Obviously, the pointy, hard bullet is going to work better against armor (how much better, I'm not sure. Again, no subsonic .50 terminal data). .50 AE gets stopped by Level IIIA, (at least one load, IIRC). So that's another way to control it. Damage is real good, but AP kind of sucks. And of course, range. You've got to be a pretty solid shooter to reliably hit things with a handgun out to 200 meters.

I figure if you're going to go so far as to change the system to reflect reality a little better, you're going to take the time to point out the negatives during gameplay. You can either do that or say the world has changed enough that people would likely be lugging beasts like that around and would have the ware to handle the recoil and the society that accepts the sight of big guns. There's certainly precidence for that in Shadowrun. Everyone in SR carries around big silly guns, right? It's almost a fashion statement. It's just that the guns they tend to carry are kind of neutered. They seem to pack less punch than we've supposed would be likely for a of gun that size.

Yeah, definitely not. There's certainly no "factory load" for a cartridge like this. Anyway, FMJ is on the page now.

PS: I assume the "P" means power... How the hell does the new damage system work?

PPS: Hey Ronin, how are things down there in Baton Rouge? I bet in your particular line of work there must have been some excitement! (My girlfriend is down that way with the Red Cross at the moment.)

I'm pretty sure that "P" means Physical. Since there is a single TN of 5 attacks no longer have power. Instead they cause a base number of boxes of damage. Extra successes add a box of damage each. Worn armor just adds dice to the resistance test as dermal armor did in the past.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Didn't think of that. Yeah, that would be really nasty. And I'd never really considered just how insanely long those .50 BMG bullets are: M33 Ball stands at a whopping 58.7mm!

Good points overall on the big handguns. In my GMing experience weight is never much of a deterrent, since encumbrance rules are often more like guidelines and there are no rules concerning how difficult a weapon is to handle in general. Same goes for price, since most runners can easily afford a $1500-equivalent for the gun and $50-equivalent per 12 rounds. Recoil works, though, as does bad concealability and lack of sound suppression.

The AP value for something doing 7P that's still stopped by common flexible body armor has to be way bigger in value than anything in canon SR4. Since you need an average of 3 dice (since the TN is always 5) to counteract every point of Damage rating, and since medium-heavy flexible body armor probably rates at around 8-10 for whatever part(s) it covers, for 7P to be staged down to 1-2 boxes on average in the conditions set by TheOneRonin earlier (ie. average conditions) the AP rating would have to be ~+5 - 10.

[Edit]I didn't consider the "If Armor > Modified Damage, Do Stun" rule. That might really mess with the whole balance of guns vs. armor. Can't be bothered to think of all the possible implications, gotta leave something for TheOneRonin. [/Edit]

Yeah, I am of the same mindset. However I have only got the basics done for my weapons, wanna see?












SHAWDOWRUN FIREARMS
LIGHT PISTOLS Ammo DAM. AP. MODE. RC. AMMO. AVAIL. COST.
Colt America L36 9x17mm 4P — SA — 11b 4R 150¥
Fichetti Security 600 7.62mm 4P — SA (1) 30b 6R 450¥
Hammerli 620S 9x17mm 4P — SA 1 6b 8R 650¥
Yamaha Sakura Fubuki 7mm 4P — SA/BF (1) 10bbl x 4 10R 2,000¥
HEAVY PISTOLS Ammo DAM. AP. MODE. RC. AMMO. AVAIL. COST.
Ares Predator IV 10mm 5P — SA — 15b 4R 350¥
Ares Viper Slivergun 8mm 8P(f ) +2 SA/BF — 30b 5R 500¥
Colt Manhunter 10mm 5P — SA — 16b 4R 300¥
Infinity Pro .45ACP 5P — SA 1 14b 6R 700¥
Rem. Roomsweeper 12ga.1.25 5P — SA — 8t 6R 250¥
w/flechettes 12ga.1.25 7P(f ) +2
Ruger Super Warhawk .480R 6P –1 SS — 6cy 3R 250¥
Taurus Raging Bull .454 .454C 6P –1 SS 1 5cy 4R 400¥
MACHINE PISTOLS Ammo DAM. AP. MODE. RC. AMMO. AVAIL. COST.
Ceska Black Scorpion 7.65mm 4P — SA/BF (1) 35b 8R 550¥
Steyr TMP 9mmP 4P — SA/BF/FA — 30b 8R 600¥
Steyr TMP 10mm 5P - SA/BF/FA - 30b 8R 650¥
Infinty Fire-Pro .45ACP 5P — SA/BF 2 24b 9R 800¥
SUBMACHINEGUNS Ammo DAM. AP. MODE. RC. AMMO. AVAIL. COST.
AK-97 Carbine 5.45x39 5P — SA/BF/FA (1) 30b 4R 400¥
HK-227X .227HI 5P -1 SA/BF/FA (1) 20b/30b/45b 8R 800¥
HK-227SD* .227HI 4P -1 SA/BF/FA 1(2) 20b/30b/45b 12F 1000¥
HK MP-5 TX 10mm 5P — SA/BF/FA 2 (3) 20b/30b 4R 550¥
HK MP7 4.6mm 4P -1 SA/BF/FA 2 (3) 20/40b 7R 600¥
Ingram Smartgun X 10mm 5P — BF/FA 2 (3) 32b 6R 650¥
M23 Carbine** 6.5mm 5P -1 SA/BF/FA 1(2) 40b 8R 900¥
M23 Carbine*** .300Whisper 5P -1 SA/BF/FA 1(2) 35b 12F 1100¥
Uzi IV 10mm 5P — BF (1) 24b 4R 500¥
*The HK-227SD is a modified version of the HK-227 designed for covert operations, The weapon has a series of 30 2mm holes drilled into the barrel to allow the gasses to bleed out to reduce the round’s velocity to below the speed of sound, therefore minimizing the signature of the round. The weapon also has an integral suppressor built in to reduce the muzzle report.
**The M23 Carbine is equipped with a universal mounting system (ala Picatinny).
***The M23 Carbine in .300Whisper is an integrally suppressed weapon which fires a special subsonic round designed to be used with suppressed weapons and is equipped with the universal mounting system (ala Picatinny).
ASSAULT RIFLES Ammo DAM. AP. MODE. RC. AMMO. AVAIL. COST.
AK-97 5.45x39 6P –2 SA/BF/FA (1) 30b 4R 500¥
Ares Alpha 6mmHVCLS 6P –2 SA/BF/FA 2 42b 12F 1,700¥
Grenade Launcher 20mm Gren. — SS — 6b
FN HAR 6.6mm 6P –2 SA/BF/FA 2 35b 8R 1,000¥
HK G40 SFWA4* 6mmHVCLS 6P –2 SA/BF/FA 3 150h 16F 3,000¥
HK XM30 6.5mm 6P –2 SA/BF/FA (1) 30b 15F 2,500¥
Grenade Launcher Gren. — SS — 8b
Shotgun 12 ga. 7P +1 SA (1) 10b +1,000¥
Carbine 6.5mm 5P — SA/BF/FA (1) 30b +500¥
Sniper 6.5mm 7P –2 SA (1) 10b +1,000¥
LMG 6.5mm 6P –2 BF/FA 2 (3) 100dlb +1,000¥
M23** 6.5mm 6P -2 SA/BF/FA 2 40b 8R 900¥
*The HK G40 SFWA4 (Gewehr = Rifle in German, Model 40, Special Forces Weapon Adaptation 4)) has an integral suppressor to reduce muzzle report, a quick mount collar for anti-armor and anti personnel projectiles. The weapon also has an integral smart-link and elctro-optical sighting system. The magazine is a 150 round caseless helical magazine (purchase price 50¥), which mounts on the top of the weapon.
**The M23 is equipped with a universal mounting system (ala Picatinny).
SNIPER RIFLES Ammo DAM. AP. MODE. RC. AMMO. AVAIL. COST.
Ranger Arms SM-4 .300wm 8P –3 SA (1) 15b 16F 6,200¥
Walter MA-2100 6.5mm 7P –3 SA (1) 10b 10F 5,000¥
HVY SNIPER RIFLES Ammo DAM. AP. MODE. RC. AMMO. AVAIL. COST.
Chey-Tac .408 .408 9P -3 SS (1) 10b 16F 10,000¥

SHOTGUNS Ammo DAM. AP. MODE. RC. AMMO. AVAIL. COST.
M1044 12ga.2.5 7P -1 SA (1) 8t 5R 600¥
With flechettes 12ga.2.5 9P(f) +2
Mossberg AM-CMDT 12ga.2.5 9P(f) +2 SA/BF/FA — 10b 12R 1,000¥
Remington 990 12ga.2.5 7P –1 SA (1) 8t 4R 550¥
With flechettes 12ga.2.5 9P(f ) +2
LIGHT MGS Ammo DAM. AP. MODE. RC. AMMO. AVAIL. COST.
Ingram White Knight 6.5mm 6P –2 BF/FA 5 (6) 50b/100(dlb) 12F 2,000¥
HK 23E6z2 6.5mm 6P -2 SA/BF/FA 5 (6) 200dlb 12F 2,200¥
HK LMG40 SFWA4* 6mmHVCLS 6P -2 SA/BF/FA 5 (6) 150h 16F 4,500¥
*The HK LMG40 SFWA4 has an integral suppressor to reduce muzzle report. The weapon also has an integral smart-link and elctro-optical sighting system. The magazine is a 150 round caseless helical magazine (purchase price 50¥), which mounts on the top of the weapon.
MEDIUM MGS Ammo DAM. AP. MODE. RC. AMMO. AVAIL. COST.
Stoner-Ares M202 7.62N 7P –3 FA — 50b/100dlb 12F 4,500¥
FN MAG 60 7.62N 7P -3 FA - 200dlb 12F 4,500¥
HEAVY MGS Ammo DAM. AP. MODE. RC. AMMO. AVAIL. COST.
Ultimax HMG-2 .50BMG 7P –3 FA 3 (10) 50b/100dlb 15F 7,500¥
PDRS Ammo DAM. AP. MODE. RC. AMMO. AVAIL. COST.
Panther XXL 25mm Payload - SS (1) 5b 20F 5,500¥
Barrett M109A3 25mm Payload - SS (1) 5b 18F 5,000¥
GRENADE LNCHRS Ammo DAM. AP. MODE. RC. AMMO. AVAIL. COST.
Ares Antioch-2 20mm Gren. — SS — 8t 8F 600¥
ArmTech MGL-12 20mm Gren. — SA — 12b 10F 2,000¥

AMMUNITION
Ammunition/box (20rounds) Damage Mod. AP Mod. Armor Used Availability
APDS — –4 B 16F
Explosive Rounds +1 - B 8F
EX-Explosive Rounds +2 – B 12F
Flechette Rounds +2 +2 I 2R
Gel Rounds +2 (Stun) +2 I 4R
Ball Ammo — — B 2R
COST: (Per Box of 20 rounds)
Pistol/SMG AR/Carbine/LMGs Sniper Rifles/MMGs Heavy Sniper/HMGs
APDS: 40¥ 70¥ 100¥ 140¥
Explosive: 25¥ 50¥ 80¥ 110¥
EX-EX: 50¥ 100¥ 125¥ 150¥
Flechette: 50¥ 100¥ 125¥ 150¥
Gel Rounds: 15¥ 30¥ - -
Ball: 10¥ 20¥ 30¥ 40¥

PDRS(/10Rd. Box)
Round Damage AP Blast Avail Cost
APDS 12P -5 0 16F 300¥
HE-Proximitiy 10P - -5/m 16F 500¥
HEDP 10P -3 -10/m 16F 500¥

Magazine Notes:
b = box magazine ("clips", gawd I hate that)
cyl = cylinder (think revolver)
h = helical magazine
dlb= disintegrating link belt (Machinegun belts)

I also changed the way Assault Cannons do thier thing, I moved them into the Payload Delivery Rifle System (PDRS) category and cut the magazine capacity down drastically.

No, a .45 to the chest stopped by a vest classed by NIJ to defeat it might still reduce your ability to function. It is by no means a given that a person will succumb to pain or whatever mechanism might be involved in causing them to immediately stop fighting back or that function will be reduced any worse than the affects adrenaline has on your fine motor skills. It depends entirely upon the circumstances (where the hit is taken, what level of armor is worn, what kind of bullet is hitting it, etc...) and the person wearing the armor (how they're built physically, how they're likely to react to it psychologically).

There have been numerous cases in which police officers have taken hits from handgun rounds without even realizing it until after the adrenaline has worn off. So it's not really like "Haha! You shot has been stopped by my armor! *swashbuckle*" it's more like, "Glad that's over with. Let's go get some donuts. Why does it feel like somone's been poking me in the chest repeatedly for the last half hour?" All NIJ armor is classed to stop a given round within a backface deformation limit of 1.73" (44mm). Sure, being shot with a .45 ACP at a few meters with NIJ II on is probably going to leave a mark, but it's not going to put you out of the fight by default, especially if you're pumped up.

Yeah, we've been VERY busy over the last couple of months. My company staff has probably grown 10% in the last 6 weeks, and we are hiring/deploying people like crazy. Plus the population of Baton Rouge has just about doubled since the hurricanes, which has brought more than its share of problems (traffic & crime being the biggest). I even picked up a Benelli Nova for home defense (better than the .45 &.40 I already have). Thanks for the inquiry, though, and it's good to see you on this thread. BTW, do you know exactly where your GF is working?


Now, back to the grit.

Hyzmarca and Zen did a good job of explaining how the damage system works in SR4. Basically, if you take out all of the dice modifiers and expect average dice rolls on shooting/defense, a firearm will end up doing base damage vs. an average human with no armor. Said average human will have 10 blocks of health (like SR3), and when all 10 get filled in, he is incapaciated. Weapons do their number rating in damage, either P(physical) or S(stun). So like Zen's example, a damage code of 5P is 5 blocks of damage, physical.

An interesting comparison about damage between SR3 and SR4 is that the base damages for SR4 tend to be a bit higher (light pistols do a base of 4 blocks, while in SR3, they do a base of 1 block), but staging is much more drastic in SR3 than it is in SR4.



As for game balance issues...I'm much more worried about doing what I can to reflect real life and hoping the rest falls into place. For example, if a DE .50AE does more damage than an M4, but is stopped by Level IIIA bodyarmor and the M4 round isn't, then that alone is plenty of motivation to carry the Carbine over the pistol. I wanted to wait until we were completely settled on damage before posting the Armor stuff, but I suppose I might as well go with it.

First thing, I'm going to repost the damages, with updates based on the discussion since my last post.

Semi-Auto pistols:

9x19mm Parabellum: 2P (FMJ)
9x19mm Parabellum: 3P (JHP)
5.7x28mm: 2P (much better AP than 9mm)
4.6x30mm: 2P (much better AP than 9mm)
.40 S&W: 4P (JHP)
.45 ACP: 4P (JHP)
.357 SIG: 4P (JHP)
10mm Caseless: 5P (JHP)
11x26mm fictional cartridge: 5P (JHP)
.400 COR-BON: 5P (JHP)
.40 Super: 5P (JHP)
.50 AE: 6P (JHP)


Revolvers:

.22 Hornet: 3P (FMJ)
.357 Mag: 4P (JHP)
.44 Mag: 5P (JHP)
.454 Casull: 6P (JHP)
.500 S&W: 7P (JHP)



Rifles:

5.56x45mm: 4P (FMJ)
6x35mm Caseless: 5P (FMJ)
6.8 SPC: 5P (FMJ)
6.5 Grendel: 5P (FMJ)
7.62x39 Soviet: 5P (FMJ)
.270 Remington: 5P (FMJ)
7.62x51mm NATO: 6P (FMJ)
7.62x54mm Russian: 6P (FMJ)
.30-06 Springfield: 6P (FMJ)
7mm Remington Mag: 6P (FMJ)
.300 Winchester Mag: 7P (FMJ)
.510 Whisper: 7P (JHP)
.338 Lapua: 9P (FMJ)
.338 Winchester Mag: 9P (FMJ)
.408 CheyTac: 10P (FMJ)
.50 BMG: 14P (FMJ)
15.2mm APFSDS: 15P (APFSDS...D'oh!)


12 Gauge Shotguns (slugs):
3" and below: 8P
3.5" and above: 9P, +1 recoil


Okay, given those numbers, here's what I came up with for body armor.

1st, we look at how body armor works in the system. If the average shooter scores 1 net success, the target rolls body dice + armor dice vs. T# 5. Each hit reduces the damage by one box. On the average, every 3 dice will negate a single box of damage. So, given the example of a heavy pistol doing 5 blocks of damage, you would need to rolling 15 dice on average would reduce the damage to nothing.

So here's where I attempt to blend the RL stuff with the game stuff.

Let's say that for armor to be (NIJ) rated to protect against a certain caliber, it's got to give the target enough dice to reduce (on average) the damage down to 1-2 blocks.

So lets take the 9mm FMJ. With a damage code of 2P, armor with a ballistic rating of 6 should be able to completely stop it.

So what's our next step?

If a .44 Magnum (JHP) will do 5P, then you need 12-15 armor dice to sufficiently protect against it. But seeing as how the .44 round is a JHP, the armor will have an easier time stopping it. So Level IIIA body armor, which will stop a .44 Mag JHP should have what rating? What about the .44 mag round? What AP should it have?

Click the spoiler to read about SR4 AP rating on firearms:


I'm going to just pull this out of my ass here, but lets say JHP for pistols have a +3 to AP. That means that any kind of armor is going to get 3 extra dice when shot by said ammo, and thus will remove 1 extra block of damage.

So let's say we have something like this:

.44 Magnum JHP: 5P, AP:+3

IIIA Vest: 9 Ballistic armor

Let's say the shooter scores 1 hit. The target doesn't know it's coming, so he gets no defense roll. With the shooter having one net hit, the damage becomes 6P. The target rolls Body (3 dice) + Armor (base 9 dice + 3 more from weapon's AP). This means the target rolls 15 dice, which should average about 5 hits. That should stage the damage down to one box. That seems perfectly reasonable for Level IIIA armor.

This standard seems to work, but we start to get really large numbers. For example, that Level IIIA armor won't stop a 5.56x45mm FMJ round. But does the armor effect the projectile at all? If the answer is no, then the 5.56mm round needs to have an AP rating of ~ -9. That isn't too bad...but if a .223 caliber round is AP: -9, then what is a .338 Lapua or a .408 CheyTac?

And if a 5.56mm is AP: -9, then what's the ballistic rating on Level III armor, which should not only completely stop a 5.56mm, but a 7.62x51 as well? Following the same math as above, the Level III armor would need a ballistic rating of 18 or so to be effective against 5.56mm ammunition.


Okay, I have a few more suggestions, but I've posted a ton of crap, and I'd like to see what sort of input everyone else has so far.

If it's rigid armor, rather more like 0 or maybe 1 blocks. Of course there the problem is that rigid plates usually just cover a 10" x 12" (+/- 2" in both directions) rectangle on your abdomen/chest and the middle of your back. Of those shots which hit the area covered by a normal tactical flexible vest, a large part will not hit the actual plate(s). You could abstract that into just making rigid armor a bit worse off than it is IRL.

The real problem here would be that it'd make the heavier forms of protection being too good against lesser threats, especially with no hit location system. Even without aiming specifically for an unprotected body part, firing a 5.56x45mm FMJ from a rifle at someone wearing a vest with level IV-equivalent plate inserts should run a decent probability of serious injury.

I've not seen any studies on terminal ballistics through body armor (haven't been looking too hard recently though). I assume whether and how penetrating the layer of armor first affects the wound cavity caused varies massively based on things like the exact construction of the bullet, how close the armor does come to stopping it, etc. Body armor too weak to stop a bullet would, I assume, more often make you better off than worse off.

Even if it didn't, I think the scaling issue overrides this one. I, at least, would find it easier to suspend my disbelief on a level III-A vest improving your life expectancy when faced with people armed with assault rifles than on deforming light sporting rifle rounds being of little to no use without called shots against someone wearing a level III-A vest with level IV plate inserts.

Anyway, going with the "1 success on the attack test, no dodging, 1 success on the Damage Resistance test" scenario, then level III-A could reasonably be anywhere from around 5 or so to Lots. Too low and you can't represent lighter forms of armor properly, too high and it looks silly.

For example, III-A = Ballistic 5 would make sense assuming a .44 Magnum JHP did, say, 5P/AP+7. In this case, 5.56x45mm FMJ could do e.g. 4P/AP+0, 7.62x51mm something like FMJ 6P/AP+3, so that level III could equal Ballistic 12. (Not taking into consideration the fact that level III probably covers a much smaller area.) And so on.

Or, going with III-A = Ballistic 9, .44 Magnum JHP could do the 5P/AP+3 you mentioned. 5.56x45mm FMJ could then be 4P/-5, 7.62x51mm FMJ 6P/AP-2, level III = Ballistic 16, etc.

I don't really have any clue if the choice of magnitude of the numbers you use for the Armor ratings actually has any real effect on the outcome. If you do the math, it's probably going to end up being an aesthetic choice alone, as long as lighter armor can be properly simulated, since you can always adjust the AP values accordingly.

It looks like you might have to make a nasty compromise between the .270 Winchester JHP vs. Level IV Vest Futility issue and the 7.62x51mm FMJ Not Much Better Than .50 AE JHP Through Level III-A issue unless you include hit locations.

I kind of figured you'd have your hands full.

That'll work.

She's been all over the place. She flew into Baton Rouge, from there went to Opelousas, then Lafayette, then down to New Iberia, where she is now. She says FEMA is getting ready to cut funding for the shelter she's at, but she and the friend she went with still have two weeks of service left, so they're trying to get over to Florida now.

Sorry I haven't replied about the SR stuff yet. I really haven't had the time to process the new damage system yet to make any worthwhile observations regarding it. Stupid work...

Yeah, with such a small scale to work with, the higher end stuff just doesn't compare to the lower end stuff like it should. However, I might have just been too conservative with the damage codes for the higher-end cartridges. I was initially hesitant to exceed a DC of 10, except for the really big cartridges (.50 BMG and up). Perhaps we should spread out the damage codes a bit...push those damage codes up the scale so we can spread them out and have a bit more variance between them. But would that keep them reasonable in terms of the damage they cause the human body? Sure, a single hit to the center torso by a .50 BMG is pretty close to instant death, but what about the other cartridges like the .408 CheyTac or .338 Lapua?

Well I was thinking about having three categories of armor. Starting at the top, you'd have the full suits of body armor worn by SWAT, HTR teams, military combat operators, and corpsec in high threat areas. This stuff starts at about NIJ class III or IV, and always has either advanced composite ballistic plate inserts/get packs and works well against Assault Rifle/Battle rifle projectiles. Shadowrunners will rarely be wearing this kind of stuff because is cannot be concealed at all, and this armor usually covers the entire body.

Taking a step down, you have concealable vests which match most of what's out there today. This is the stuff beat cops and regular corpsec wear when they want to be prepared for a threat, but aren't necessarily expecting one. This stuff is designed mostly for protection against handguns. I would probably put this type of armor in the Class II to Class IIIA category. I was also thinking about these vests having pockets for ballistic plate inserts that give some protection against rifle fire, but that's something I'll save for later on.

And finally, we have armored clothing as our last category. This stuff is going to be designed for ulimate concealability and mobility, and comes in several styles (shirt+pants, jacket, trench coat, etc). This stuff won't have the overall thickness of the armored vests, but should still be able to stop some of the smaller caliber handgun rounds, like 9mm and .40 S&W. I was thinking about having a special rule for this armor...something to the effect of using double the ballistic rating to determine if the damage is Physical or Stun, but only roll the normal ballistic rating in the resistance test. Needless to say, this stuff should provide less overall protection than the armored vests.

You also bring up an important point about hit locations. I a little leary of using random hit locations in my SR games. I'm fine with allocating most hits to center torso, then handling other stuff on a case by case. I suppose we need decent rules for things like called shots, but that can come after we get everything else resolved.

Perhaps something along the lines of a modifier to rifle projectile AP for the heavier (Class III and Class IV) types of body armor? Say maybe such ammo would only receive half of it's AP rating vs. Class III or better body armor? Or does that add too much complication?

We are in total agreement on this one. However, I'm not perfectly clear on exactly how much protection the different classes of body armor provide. What I am gathering based on my reading and your (and Raygun's) comments, flexible body armor is pretty much guaranteed to stop any projectile for which it is rated, striking from almost any angle. However, rigid body armor, or flexible armor with ballistic plate inserts, will only provide protection against the threat it is rated for as long as the projectile hits the plate at not too oblique an angle, and as long as it doesn't impact at, lets say, a seam between plates or something to that effect.

So basically, if I'm walking around wearing my Class IIIA vest, any shots from a 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, .357 Mag, or .44 Mag will be stopped with virtually no physical harm to me, as long as they hit the vest.

However, if I'm walking around in my Class IV body armor...you know, the kind that is rated to stop .30-06 AP rounds...I STILL have a decent chance to get wounded by a 5.56mm round fired from an M4 Carbine because there are so many places the round can hit besides the ballistic plate inserts? Wow...I hadn't considered that at all. I was just going with the assumption that if the armor is rated for that threat, it will pretty much stop it, barring some hand of God shit. I suppose I need to revise just how much proection those types of armors give you vs. rifle projectiles.

Those numbers don't work because you end up with stuff like a level IIIA vest pretty much being able to completely stop a 5.56.

That doesn't work either. I suppose that the "If Ballistic rating is higher than Damage rating, damage is stun) thing messes us up a lot. When you get near enough dice to adequately reduce damage, ballistic rating is always gonna be WAY beyond damage level. Let's chunk that rule for now. Firearms always do Physical damage, armor or no armor. We will figure out how to handle the "convert to stun" damage rule later.

Yeah, I suppose as long as DC, AP, and Ballistic ratings are all properly relative, it doesn't matter which set of numbers we use. I'm pretty happy with the DCs where they are, with maybe a few small adjustments here at there. I'd also like to go ahead and set the JHP handgun ammo at a base of AP:+3. I suppose with that as the baseline, everything else will just penetrate armor better. Does that make sense?

I think there is a way we can abstract the hit locations when it comes to that type of armor.

So we are saying that Class IIIA will pretty much completely stop a .44 mag round that impacts just about any location on the armor itself. How do we reflect that? If the .44 Mag is 5P, AP:+3 we give the vest a ballistic rating of 9. That means on AVERAGE, the armor alone will stage the damage down to 1 box.

So lets say that if we are dealing with 5.56mm vs. class III, the target needs to roll better than average to stage down all of the damage. If 9 dice would AVERAGE three hits (staging the damage down to 1 box), then lets say the target only gets 6 dice. That way, on an average roll, he takes two boxes of damage, but on a lucky roll, he might take only one box, or potentially none at all.

So if 5.56 is 4P, -6AP, then Class III armor would be Ballistic: 12.

What other ramifications would this have?

If the guy in Class IIIA armor gets shot at by 5.56, he's only gonna get 3 dice from his armor. So it provides a little protection, but not nearly enough to count on.

Likewise, if the guy in Class III armor gets shot at by a .44 Mag, he's gonna get 15 dice (avg 5 hits) and quite likely stage down all of the damage.

Before I give some more examples, I apparently have a misconception that I need fixed. In the examples you gave above, you always gave 5.56mm a better AP rating than 7.62mm. Is that a typo, or does 5.56mm FMJ really penetrate soft/flexible armor (and rigid/ballistic plate armor) better than 7.62mm FMJ?

If that's the case, I'll really have to re-write that section of my brain.

New Iberia and Lafayette, eh? What a small world. I was born and raised in The Berry (yokle term for New Iberia), and my entire family still lives there. Also, I went to college in Lafayette (it's University of Louisiana @ Lafayette now, but was USL when I was there). Give her my e-mail address (chris.louviere@ieminc.com) and let her know to contact me if she needs any info about the surrounding areas.

As for the SR stuff...yeah, I know about supid work. If I wasn't stuck babysitting the dozen or so machines I'm having to image for deployment, I wouldn't have time to post either. Take care, and tell your gf the cajuns down here appreciate the hell out of what her and the rest of the Red Cross people are doing to help.