 Calling Raygun, Austere, and others of their kind, Firearm/Ammo/Body Armor reworking... |
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 Oct 21 2005, 12:45 PM
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#1
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729  |
Greetings all! I'm currently working on revising the firearms, burst/autofire rules, ammunition, and body armor rules in SR4 to bring them in line with today's reality. IMO, Raygun did the same thing for SR3, and his site has been an inspiration to me. I've used his rules in my games (along with my own tweaks), and have been VERY happy with they way they work.
So after getting SR4, I decided to try and run a few vanilla games before making any house rules. Needless to say, the rules for firearms are just as silly as they are in SR3, and need heavy revising. So for those of you with even a modicum of time, I would appreciate your suggesstions/input/applied expertise on this matter. I know many of you aren't really interested in playing SR4, which is why I put this post on this board...so you are more likely to see it. While you might not be interested in the SR4 game system, I would still like to be able to tap your RL knowledge for this project. Anyway, if I get any feedback from interested parties, I'll go ahead and post what I've put together so far, and the philosophy behind my decisions. |
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Oct 21 2005, 01:16 PM
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
You know me, if it appears here and it's related to firearms somehow I'll probably respond to it, though I might not be able to give much constructive criticism until SR4 hits the bookshelfs here. And if what you're looking for is really mostly Raygun For SR4, then I can't help you too much with that anyway. ;)
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Oct 21 2005, 01:27 PM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Thanks Austere. Any help is appreciated. What I'm really looking for is input on how to make SR4 firearms (and related stuff) much more reflective of the way things work in real life. More than rules-mechanics analysis, I'm looking for input from the experts (you guys) on the real world stuff. I'm an amature firearms buff, and have some RL experience (6 years in the US Army Mech Infantry, handgun/shotgun/rifle owner), but I don't have near the expertise that you guys do.
Basically, what I'm doing is taking what I know about RL firearms/ammo/body armor and trying to fit it into the SR4 ruleset without having to overhaul the whole system. What I mainly need you guys for is to correct any of my false assumptions of the way firearms/ammo/body armors behave IRL. And maybe also make some suggestions about a better way to handle things. I know you do not have the SR4 book in your neck of the woods yet, but do you have the PDF, or have you read any of the posts about the SR4 rules? Again, none of that is really necessary for the sort of help I'm asking. |
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Oct 21 2005, 01:32 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
I'd love to help.
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Oct 21 2005, 01:51 PM
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#5
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Nope, no PDF. I've read enough of the posts to have some kind of feel as to how the combat mechanism works, but specifics will have to wait until the FLGS gets SR4.
Oh, and based on the above, you've spent a lot more time handling and firing different kinds of weapons than me. Nearly all of my hands-on experience is from 9 months of military training. |
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Oct 21 2005, 02:01 PM
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#6
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Sweet! The more, the merrier!
I suppose I should go over what I'm trying to accomplish it a little more detail. #1 Make firearms stats in SR4 relative (or as close as possile) to RL firearms. For example: a 5.56x45mm rifle round should have considerably more penetration (AP rating) than a 9x19mm round fired from a pistol. Damage should be reasonably representative of the cartridge in use, within the confines of the SR4 damage model. #2 Caliber-ize all of the existing SR firearms with minimal invention. I don't see a need to create all sorts of funky new caliber ammo just because the game is set 70 years in the future. Most of the current ammunition out there is sufficient. #3 Fix body armor so it works just like (or as close as possible to) real life. The NIJ body armor stuff that has been posted all over these boards is a good place to start. I'm more concerned about what makes sense than what is "balanced". #4 Fix specialty ammo so it makes sense, and do away with the sillyness like EX explosive rounds penetrating body armor better than FMJ rounds. #5 Define things in such a way that it becomes extremely easy to add all the current real life weapons to the game. With the new rules, I should be able to import, from real life, something like a SCAR-L chambered in 6.8 SPC with absolutely no difficulty. #6 Add/fix/change/throw out anything else, as necessary. |
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Oct 21 2005, 02:12 PM
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#7
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Ehhh...I might have more experience in actually using firearms, but that doesn't mean (by a long shot) that I know more about them. In my experience, the typical Mech Inf soldier is extremely familiar with using the M16 (suppose it's the M4 now in the US Army), and pretty darned familiar with using the other common weapon systems (M249 SAW, M203, M-60). He knows how to use those weapon systems to kill the enemy, and he has a decent idea of effective engagement ranges, but that's about it. He doesn't have a clue about muzzel velocity, tissue/hard substance penetration, ammo vs. body armor performance, terminal ballistics, or anything of that nature. I only know a bit about that stuff because I am a voracious reader...and most of the knowledge I have regarding firearms was acquired AFTER I left the military. So real-world experience does count for something...but the academic stuff, I think, is more useful for what I'm trying to accomplish. Plus it's fun as shit to talk to someone who knows a lot about guns...and I'm a geek like that. ;-) |
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Oct 21 2005, 02:22 PM
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Another good resource is the safety manager at your local firing range. they are a wellspring of useful knowledge about firearms and penetration. at least they should be, if not, you know not to park your car near there any more.
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Oct 21 2005, 03:54 PM
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#9
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Okay...looks like I've got some help with this. So let me go ahead and put up some of my thoughts.
Before we can really classify the performance differences between firearms, we have to classify ammunition. For the purpose of this thread, when I refer to normal ammo, I'm talking about FMJ ball ammo, regardless of the caliber. Oh, and I'm going to obviously do away with all of that "weapons of the same class can share the same ammo" bullshit. Here are the base calibers I'd like to start with: Pistol Ammo (semi-autos) 9x19mm Parabellum .40 S&W .45 ACP 10mm Auto Revolver Ammo .357 Magnum .44 Magnum .454 Casull SMG Ammo (exact same as pistol ammo) Rifle Ammo (common military calibers, mostly) .223 Remington (5.56x45mm) 7.62x39 Soviet .308 Remington (7.62x51mm) .300 Winchester Magnum .50 BMG (12.7x99mm) Shotgun (all 12 guage) 2 3/4" shells 3" shells 3 1/2" shells There are a LOT more cartridges I'd like to add, but these are probably some of the most popular, and wil fit most of the SR3/SR4 firearms. I suppose the next step is to determine their relative damage codes. Before we can do that, we have to set up a couple of "laws" #1) The average shooter will be rolling 6 dice (3 attribute, 3 skill) and will generate 2 hits. The average unarmored target will get one hit on the reaction test (Reaction 3), and will make one hit on the body resistance test (Body 3). This means that if you are in an empty parking lot in the daytime and are shot at close range by an averagely skilled shooter, you will end up taking the base damage of the weapon. #2) The average human being has 10 boxes of health. Guaranteed incapcitation occurs at 10 boxes of damage. #3) Standard damage codes are based on firing a particular cartridge from a weapon with the most common appropriate barrel length (ie., 9mm from a 4" barrel, 5.56 from a 20" barrel, etc.). The base damage codes can be modified from there (ie., 5.56 fired from a carbine length barrel or a 9mm fired from an SMG length barrel). So with that in mind, here are the numbers I put together. Pistols: 9x19mm: 3P .40 S&W: 4P .45 ACP: 4P 10mm : 5P Revolvers: .357 Mag: 4P .44 Mag: 5P .454 Casull: 6P Rifles: 5.56x45mm: 4P 7.62x39mm: 5P 7.62x51mm: 6P .300 WM: 7P Shotguns (all 12 gauge slugs): 2 3/4": 7P 3": 8P 3.5": 9P This is a first draft, and most of it is really guesswork in regards to how much tissue damage the different calibers do at close range. I'm much more concerned about how the different calibers compare with one another. Most what I was looking at when I put this together is projectile diameter, muzzel velocity, and projectile mass. Based upon those three things, I tried to estimate relative wounding potential, and keep the same general relativity between the cartridges. Also, I did not include SMGs because I wanted to get the experts' opinions on how much a pistol round's damage potential is increased by firing it from a longer barrel. My initial guess would be +1 damage box, but that might be too much. So what do the gurus have to say? |
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Oct 21 2005, 03:57 PM
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#10
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Also note that I haven't yet included the AP rating on different calibers. When I do, it will increase the variance between cartridges signifactly (though your .40S&W and 5.56mm both do the same base damage, the 5.56mm is gonna have WAY better AP).
Also, it makes no sense giving AP values until you determine the way armor is going to work. |
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Oct 21 2005, 04:20 PM
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#11
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
If you want to go hardcore with the suspension of disbelief, then some new calibers are kind of necessary. Just think of how many of the calibers commonly used now IRL have been developed in the last 60-70 years. Of course, you could say nearly everything has already been invented so there's nothing new left to do, but there are always some things you could add, like a few caseless pistol and rifle cartridges, larger bore diameter (say, around 7mm) versions of the basic concept of 5.7x28mm and 4.6x30mm, perhaps a few more midrange assault rifle calibers (similar to 6.8x43mm SPC, etc.). Maybe even a few calibers purpose built for specific new bullet designs, like something ballistically similar to a .44 Magnum meant for firing explosive bullets out of carbines, that sort of thing. Of course most of these things wouldn't be very or at all useful IRL right now, but they might be in the 6th World ca. 2050-2075. Most importantly, they make the guns and ammo feel more like Shadowrun, and not just RL current guns with different names. Unless, of course, that's the way you want to play SR.
This one depends on the description of EX Explosive ammunition. There exist explosive bullet designs for small arms that penetrate armor better than FMJs, in some cases about as well as tungsten APDS. Though I have a hunch you won't be too happy with that kind of interpretation of EX-Ex. ;) |
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Oct 21 2005, 04:41 PM
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#12
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
You make some very good points, AE. First off, I have a spreadsheet that I've put together already...probably about a month ago, that has about 40 different cartridges in it...including the FN 5.7mm, the HK 4.6mm, the 6.8 SPC (personal fav), the 6.5 Grendel, .500 S&W, .408 CheyTac (another fav), .338 Lapua, and even some of the more esoteric handgun cartridges like the .400 COR-BON and the .45 Super. I even sort of came up with a few different cailbers for caseless ammo as well. However, the bottom line here is I want to start off with stuff we know. Ammo that is out there and that we have hard performance data on. Once we categorize those common cartridges, it should be easy to figure out where the rest of the ammo (old and new) stands. BTW, I really like the .44 Mag-type round fired from a carbine idea. Sounds like a SR version of the Winchester 1873...might be a really neat weapon for runners. |
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Oct 21 2005, 04:44 PM
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#13
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Also, we already have a hard calibre to game mechanic to base off of. the Ares Predator IV picture clearly shows 10mm Caseless on the slide. I would start from there.
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Oct 21 2005, 05:00 PM
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#14
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
About the choice of calibers:
If you go as far as noting the difference between the 3 12 gauge shotgun cartridge lengths (personally, I'd just make all shotguns either 2-3/4" or 3") and including the .454 Casull, then you really might as well include the .338 Lapua Magnum to bridge the gap between the 7.62mm and the 12.7mm sniper(/anti-material) rifles. In case you end up having some smaller and/or larger caliber sporting rifles in your games, you could stat out .243 or .270 Winchester and something like .375 H&H, and a .45-70 couldn't hurt. And if any of these are still around then the .22 LR sure as hell is, although weapons chambered in that might not end up in the hands of the runners. About the stats: Keeping in mind that these are for FMJ, and considering how the Damage Code works in SR4, the different handgun calibers should realistically have their damage code relate mostly to the bore diameter. Firing round nosed FMJs, they will all cleanly penetrate any unarmored humanoids (apart, possibly, from trolls and their kin), and the holes they leave behind will relate more closely to the diameter of the bullet than the changes in velocity in the range of 1000-1600fps. Realistically, then, firing round nosed FMJs, a .357 Mag and a 9x19mm should do about the same amount of damage to humans, as should a 10mm Auto and a .40 S&W, and probably even a .44 Magnum and a .45 ACP. The problem then is that once you switch the ammunition to what these guns are more likely to fire, like JHPs and other deforming bullet designs, the .357, 10x25 and .44 will handily outperform the 9x19, .40 and .45. There are several ways to deal with this. If a bit more complexity isn't a problem for you, you can just make the projectile type modifiers caliber-specific, so that e.g. a 9x19mm and a .357 Magnum FMJ both do 2P with FMJ-RNs, but they do 3P and 4P, respectively, with JHPs. Having relatively few different calibers helps here. Otherwise, you could decide that standard, assumed bullet type for handguns isn't FMJ, but, say, flat-nosed lead bullets (like lead wadcutters or hard-cast flatnoses). Here the more powerful calibers should do more damage than their calmer bore-diameter-brothers -- and it's more realistic to boot, since you aren't very likely to find FMJ/ball rounds for many of the mentioned handgun calibers, handgun FMJs mostly being a military thing. Or you could just deal with it not being too realistic that the FMJ damage codes are what they are. It's not going to mess with the gameplay anyway, since FMJs ammo is only likely to pop up for 9x19mm and .45 ACP. There's little space for improvement with the rifles. As for the shotguns, if you are indeed going to keep the three separate lengths, then I would at least suggest using just two different damage codes. Either one for 2-3/4" and 3" and one for 3-½" or the other way around. In any case, if 7.62x51mm does 6P with FMJs, then even a 2-3/4" 12G slug should be at least 8P. One box just doesn't do justice to the difference between this and this. |
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Oct 21 2005, 05:05 PM
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#15
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
As long as you keep in mind that the .338 Lapua Magnum and possibly the 4.6x30mm and 5.7x28mm are in a whole different class when to comes to likelihood of still being around in significant numbers in the 2070s than, say, 6.5 Grendel. Judging from the latest comments I read from Raygun about the whole XM8 & potential caliber switch thing, the 6.5 Grendel is extremely unlikely to go anywhere. Of course, should the 6.8x43mm somehow take off, they just might dig the 6.5 up again as well. |
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Oct 21 2005, 06:25 PM
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
As I most certainly have in my spreadsheet. I just didn't want to make an overwhelming list of calibers for this threat. But I suppose it will do more good to have that whole thing posted than just what is up there now.
Indeed. In my follow-up to this post, I'll go ahead and put everything I have.
A-HA! This is the kind of insight I was talking about. Since 100% of the shooting I do now is on the range, I always get the cheapest ball ammo. Add to that I always figure that Shadowrunners, and indeed their security counterparts would be far more likely to load FMJ rounds because of the increased effectiveness of body armor vs. JHP ammo.
So here's a question. Let's say you assume that .44 Mags, 10mm Auto, and the like are most commonly sold as JHPs, and the damage code is set to reflect that. Do we, in turn, increase the effectiveness of armor vs. said ammunition?
That's another possibility. But I think I'd rather the ammo work like it does in real life.
I consider that a compliment! 8-)
Okay, so lets say we set 12-gauge damage for 3" and lower to 8P, and for 3.5" and larger to 9P. Makes sense to me. So that's the kind of input I've been looking for. Like I said, not all of my speculation is going to make sense from a RL perspective, and that's why I'm putting this info up on the boards rather than just writing it up the way I think it should be and not sharing it. On a final note, how do you feel about SMGs that fire standard pistol caliber rounds like 9mm, .40S&W, .45 ACP, etc? |
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Oct 21 2005, 06:54 PM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 143 Joined: 28-August 05 Member No.: 7,631 |
Hmm... I think you may be under-estimating the Assault rifles and overestimating the heavy pistols. We actually just had a thread here about the 5.56mm and its tendency to fragment inside targets at speeds over 2,700 fps. Austere posted these: .45 ACP 5.56x45mm NATO M855 My biggest annoyance with SR4 firearms is that they give the Heavy Pistols and the Assault Rifles the same AP -1 armor penetration. The assault rifle should have more AP. I'd be okay with them having the same 5P damage code, but reducing the assault rifle's damage seems a mistake to me. People shouldn't be more dangerous with a pistol than with an assault rifle, and in game balance terms, especially not when the pistol already has the advantage of being small enough to be concealed under somebody's jacket and is far less expensive. |
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Oct 21 2005, 07:01 PM
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#18
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I think it's safe to say that will make little to no difference in the 2070s for most or all of the listed handgun calibers. The .454 Casull is probably the only one of the above which could reliably penetrate the most common form of body armor worn today (level III-A) even with FMJ ammunition, and in 70 years FMJ is still FMJ but body armor is likely to get better. Looking through some tables on a G&A I have lying around, I underestimated how common FMJ rounds for handguns are. As you said, they certainly are used, thanks to being relatively inexpensive. But because they still won't penetrate the most common forms of flexible, concealable body armor when fired out of handguns chambered for most of the calibers mentioned above, shadowrunners will have to look for solutions to the armor problem elsewhere. Calibers similar to the 5.7x28mm/4.6x30mm, actual armor piercing ammunition, called shots to the groin, not counting on handguns where body armor exists, or something else.
Is this a trick question? Absolutely.
Damage Code -wise? Not sure. Because of the very small scale of potential DCs you have to work with, it might be best for them to do the same amount of Damage as handguns chambered for the same round. Otherwise you'd get into rather silly situations like a .40 S&W out of a 12" barrel doing the same damage as a .44 Magnum -- .400" 165gr @ 1300fps and .429" 240gr @ 1375fps are two very different things. Speaking of which, I'm not quite comfortable with the 10mm Auto doing the same damage as a .44 Magnum. I realize that the granularity of the system will require compromises, but if at all possible I'd try to compromise elsewhere. As much as it might pain me to do so, I'd rather scrap the 10mm Auto altogether and replace it with some fictional and significantly more powerful 10mm rimless cartridge which might do the same damage. |
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Oct 21 2005, 07:11 PM
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Okay, here's what I have on my chart for starters. This is assuming the round is fired from a standard length barrel of the type of firearm that is typically chambered in said caliber, and that the damage code reflects the typical project configuration (FMJ, JHP, etc).
Semi-Auto pistols: 9x19mm Parabellum: 3P 5.7x28mm: 3P (much better AP than 9mm) 4.6x30mm: 3P (much better AP than 9mm) .40 S&W: 4P .45 ACP: 4P .357 SIG: 4P 10mm Auto: 5P 10mm Caseless: 5P .400 COR-BON: 5P .40 Super: 5P .50 AE: 6P Revolvers: .22 Hornet: 3P .357 Mag: 4P .44 Mag: 5P .454 Casull: 6P .500 S&W: 6P Rifles: 5.56x45mm: 4P 6x35mm Caseless: 5P 6.8 SPC: 5P 6.5 Grendel: 5P 7.62x39 Soviet: 5P .270 Remington: 5P 7.62x51mm NATO: 6P 7.62x54mm Russian: 6P .30-06 Springfield: 7P 7mm Remington Mag: 7P .300 Winchester Mag: 7P .510 Whisper: 7P .338 Lapua: 8P .338 Winchester Mag: 8P .408 CheyTac: 10P .50 BMG: 14P 15.2mm APFSDS: 18P 12 Gauge Shotguns (slugs): 3" and below: 8P 3.5" and above: 9P, +1 recoil There are plenty of other calibers I could have included, and if anyone thinks I'm missing something I should put in there, please let me know. So tell me what you guys think needs to stay and what can go. |
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Oct 21 2005, 07:15 PM
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#20
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
What that comes down to is whether TheOneRonin assumes fragmenting FMJs are still going to be common for rifle-caliber weapons in the military in the 2070s and whether he wants to deal with the added complexities that brings with it. If he does, then in the intervening 70 years we'd probably start seeing similarly designed FMJs for 7.62x51mm, 5.45x39mm, and all other common military rifle calibers. Then you'd have to decide how you're going to deal with the effects through body armor of such ammunition, and what to do with the issue of the fragmentation velocity limit: Damage dropping at range? What about carbines etc? Talking about an M855 fired out of an M16A2 at 25 meters at an unarmored human, on that scale I'd probably place it at 5P (and I'd place a .45 ACP FMJ-RN at 3P). |
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Oct 21 2005, 07:34 PM
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#21
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Anyone else get this image of a cloudy night in the city, a light shining up from city hall, the sillouhette of a pistol clearly visible as several firearms afficianado's spring into action a moment later as cheesy 70's hero music get's queued up...?
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Oct 21 2005, 07:47 PM
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#22
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Yes, at velocities in excess of 2700 FPS, the 5.56 NATO round does have a tendancy to fragment upon hitting human tissue. But that doesn't happen all of the time, and certainly won't happen if the target is A) far enough away for the projectile's velocity to be below 2700 FPS, or B) the target is wearing a high enough level of body armor to reduce the effective velocity of the round to below 2700 FPS, or C) you are firing the 5.56 round from a carbine and the 5.56 never gets up to that velocity in the first place. The lethality of the 5.56mm was a big issue with the guys in Somolia back in '93. It just didn't kill as effectively as the soldiers wanted it to, and it would often take many hits to drop a single somali militiaman. The deal here is I don't want the damage rating of each caliber of ammunition be dependant on 100 different conditions. Surely we could add stuff like a drop in DC at each range category, and a variable DC dependant upon barrel length, or even a random roll to see if the 5.56mm projectile fragments once inside the target's body. But that is just a little more complication than I'm looking for. I suppose my disbelief is more easily suspended than others, but I'm actually okay with a slow, heavy, large diameter projectile doing more raw tissue damage than a small diameter, light weight, high-velocity projectile.
I see where you are coming from. SR3 had the same basic problem with Heavy Pistols doing 9M and Assault Rifles doing 8M. That's part of why I'm doing all this work. I want the weapon systems to be about as effective in the game as they are IRL. However, given the SR4 ruleset, you can't model it as close as I'd like without having a system that's way to slow and clunky. So I make some compromises. In this case, a 5.56mm assault rifle round is going to, by default, not fragment inside the target, likely blow clean through, and do about as much tissue damage as a .40S&W. However, if the target is wearing armor that will completely stop that .40 cal round, he will likely still get completely drilled by the 5.56mm round. Therein is your tradeoff. Like I said earlier, I have not yet included AP ratings for the ammunition listed, but once I do the difference between a .40S&W and a 5.56mm will be pretty obvious. Austere, where do you stand on this? Do you think the 5.56mm and above cartridges are too low in their damage codes when compared to the pistol ammo? Think I should either bump up the rifles or drop down the pistols? |
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Oct 21 2005, 07:51 PM
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#23
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Perhaps you should think about that list again, thinking seriously about just what kind of bullet the particular Damage rating is given for? A few things, apart from those I already commented on, that popped out:
5.7x28 and 4.6x30 seem way overpowered. Even if it's a 9x19mm FMJ that does 3P, the 5.7 and 4.6 would do better at 2P. If the 3P for 9x19mm is for a JHP, then 2P for 5.7 and 4.6 FMJs is definitely the way to go. Deforming ammunition for the 5.7x28mm (like the apparently discontinued SS192 hollow point) should probably do about as much damage as deforming 9x19mm rounds. The relative ratings of the mid-heavy handgun cartridges like .45 ACP, .357 Magnum, 10mm Auto and .44 Magnum are still bothering me, but, frankly, I can't think of how to fix them right now. I have a feeling any way to deal with them is going to be dissatisfactory in some way because of the crappy scaling. My own sanity would perhaps be best retained by removing the 10mm Auto altogether and replacing it with a fictional, more powerful offshoot. I really don't know enough about the terminal ballistics of non-deforming rifle rounds to comment on the realism of those figures one way or the other. You have to draw the lines somewhere. Personally, I'd group the 7mm Remington Magnum and the .30-06 with the 7.62x51mm and 7.62x54mmR at 6P: they're all hovering at around 3000ft-lbs, the 7mm Remington 100-200ft-lbs above it at best but also pushing slightly smaller bullets, while the .300 Winchester Magnum can get up to 3800-4000ft-lbs. The Damage rating of the 15.2mm Steyr is perhaps a bit too much. Since it's fin-stabilized and has sharp leading edges, the surface area of the wound generated might not be all that great. 14-15P should be enough. The AP rating, though, should be left at "Enough". |
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Oct 21 2005, 08:06 PM
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#24
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
If you're going to go with the assumption that rifle caliber FMJs as a rule won't fragment when they hit tissue at high velocities, then no. In fact, just looking at the permanent wound cavity caused, if a 5.56x45mm FMJ did not deform at all, I'd say 4P might even be too much. But then again, the terminal ballistics of high velocity solid bullets is pretty arcane. Like I mentioned in the above message, with the little I know, I wouldn't dare claim the figures you put up are unrealistic. |
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Oct 21 2005, 08:08 PM
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#25
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Good point. If FMJ and JHP will have about the same effect on a target with body armor, I would much prefer to carry JHP rounds, in case my target is unarmored or if I manage to hit an unarmored spot on the target.
Makes sense. Perhaps there would be a move towards the 5.7mm and it's ilk, or maybe a surge in the sales of sub-caliber, saboted projectiles?
D'oh! Shame on me for not being more explicit in my question. If the JHP rounds perform poorly against armor (and they do), then how much more poorly? What numbers do we use to illustrate the reduction in performance. Here's where game mechanics become an issue.
Makes sense I suppose there is no harm at all in keeping SMGs at the same DC as their pistol counterparts. They already have the advantage of higher ammo capacity and burst/full auto capability.
I've been thinking a lot on this one. Most of the stuff I've read about the 10mm says how much more powerful it is than the .40S&W and other similar calibers, but the numbers don't add up. The mass/velocity ratio isn't that far from a standard .40S&W...at least not far enough to make a drastic difference. Personally, I'd like to see a revised 10mm or 11mm high-energy handgun round that comes pretty close to .44 mag ballistics. Any suggestions on what it would look like stats wise (Mass/muzzle velocity/projectile diameter)? |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 8th July 2025 - 11:24 PM |
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