Biker Adept Options

[Falconer]

Actually I really like the concept of a combat biker (especially the thought of the joust)... and I agree a bit w/ the others. If you're going to be doing something and get the negative quality for it anyhow, get the points up front.


Spirit bane, is actually deadly.. If the spirit has the accident power... expect to make random pilot checks all the time just to avoid a nasty crash. They'll harass you as they can, and if ordered to attack will not hold back and target you in preference. Do not take spirit bane unless you have a way to actually deal with them... I generally recommend no one other than mages take it! (very little an adept can do about a spirit at range... while a mage will just hammer it with a spell).


If this was me, things I'd consider... distance strike... drive right at the other guy, then punch him in the face from 4m away :). Or getting my hands on some telescoping staffs (arsenal p17) to use as bike lances and as a nice conealable melee weapon (coneal rating 0, same as a heavy pistol. Str/2+2P blunt, and reach 2). At $100 a pop, you can even have some spares for when they break in the joust, and as an added bonus, no legality issues.

Since this is supposed to be a cheap go-ganger, I'd probably look more at cyber options... One thing you should think about is what will your character spend his money on, and what will he spend his karma on. As a magical type... karma is spoken for in spades! Moneywise, bike upgrades are good... but you'll have a fair bit extra (which I guess you could turn into weapon foci and such... but do you see your char w/ a high lifestyle?!).

In your case, I would actually suggest considering Move-By-Wire. Why... you get +2 reaction per point of rank, +1 dodge skill bonus, +1 IP per rating... and as an added bonus you get skillwires. (especially if you can find a way to get adapsin and biocompatibility (cyber) for 20% essence reduction... throw in alpha grade and that's 40% essence reduction (damn close to delta). (enough to move grade 2 MbW down to 1.8essence). Dodge enhancements are valuable abecause you can use it to close into melee from range, vehicular dodge (only skill to be able to used), or as bonus defensive dice in melee.


I heavily suggest never taking increase physical attribute... all it does is waste magic points. It costs more to raise... and your magic rating costs will increase faster than the cost to actually raise the attributes w/ karma in play. I'm a big fan of attribute boost though... Rather than 3 points in str.. I'd consider 1 point in str, 1 point in agi, and 1 point in bod. (you roll Mag + rating... so adding 2 dice doesn't do much the lions share of the dice will come from your magic rating, or magic + power focus if you're a mystic adept). When it comes to actually hitting w/ the lance you'll be rolling agility + whatever... so more or less if you are actually 'jousting' you spend a turn or two boosting... or if you're in gunfight... spend one simple action to boost agility, then another to shoot w/ your bonus agility dice.

[Zyerne]

Actually I really like the concept of a combat biker (especially the thought of the joust)... and I agree a bit w/ the others. If you're going to be doing something and get the negative quality for it anyhow, get the points up front.

Mechanically, yes. I just felt that using Crimson Orchid over stim patches added a little flavor. He's actually (I think) got a reasonable chance of making addiction tests to avoid addictions to Cram/Betameth but having to fight not to take Orchid instead of using a stim patch could make for interesting play.

Spirit bane, is actually deadly.. If the spirit has the accident power... expect to make random pilot checks all the time just to avoid a nasty crash. They'll harass you as they can, and if ordered to attack will not hold back and target you in preference. Do not take spirit bane unless you have a way to actually deal with them... I generally recommend no one other than mages take it! (very little an adept can do about a spirit at range... while a mage will just hammer it with a spell).

I was planning on taking Spirts of Beast which have neither accident or engulf. My (revised) understanding is they'd have to manifest to hurt him at which point they can be shot. I guess keeping both the Orchid addiction AND spirit bane might be a bit much though.

If this was me, things I'd consider... distance strike... drive right at the other guy, then punch him in the face from 4m away (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . Or getting my hands on some telescoping staffs (arsenal p17) to use as bike lances and as a nice conealable melee weapon (coneal rating 0, same as a heavy pistol. Str/2+2P blunt, and reach 2). At $100 a pop, you can even have some spares for when they break in the joust, and as an added bonus, no legality issues.

I'd not considered telescoping staffs, that's an excellent idea. Distance strike I'll go read, I've not looked at the Street Magic powers so much.

Since this is supposed to be a cheap go-ganger, I'd probably look more at cyber options... One thing you should think about is what will your character spend his money on, and what will he spend his karma on. As a magical type... karma is spoken for in spades! Moneywise, bike upgrades are good... but you'll have a fair bit extra (which I guess you could turn into weapon foci and such... but do you see your char w/ a high lifestyle?!).

Current concept is having a Sensitive System lead him to turn to drugs for an edge rather than Cyberware. I seem him starting with a little bit of bioware and aspriring to more. Same with lifestyle, low to start, aspiring to better.

In your case, I would actually suggest considering Move-By-Wire. Why... you get +2 reaction per point of rank, +1 dodge skill bonus, +1 IP per rating... and as an added bonus you get skillwires. (especially if you can find a way to get adapsin and biocompatibility (cyber) for 20% essence reduction... throw in alpha grade and that's 40% essence reduction (damn close to delta). (enough to move grade 2 MbW down to 1.8essence). Dodge enhancements are valuable abecause you can use it to close into melee from range, vehicular dodge (only skill to be able to used), or as bonus defensive dice in melee.

I've actually just made a move by wire based char, don't want another one. I am however considering raising dodge to 4 and throwing on Increased Ability Dodge.

I heavily suggest never taking increase physical attribute... all it does is waste magic points. It costs more to raise... and your magic rating costs will increase faster than the cost to actually raise the attributes w/ karma in play. I'm a big fan of attribute boost though... Rather than 3 points in str.. I'd consider 1 point in str, 1 point in agi, and 1 point in bod. (you roll Mag + rating... so adding 2 dice doesn't do much the lions share of the dice will come from your magic rating, or magic + power focus if you're a mystic adept). When it comes to actually hitting w/ the lance you'll be rolling agility + whatever... so more or less if you are actually 'jousting' you spend a turn or two boosting... or if you're in gunfight... spend one simple action to boost agility, then another to shoot w/ your bonus agility dice.

There are a lot of powers that don't actually seem worth taking when you consider bioware essence costs. Agi wil get taken care of with toner, I'll have to check my 2 point bioware list to see if I had bone density in there. Agreed on dropping boost to 1, I'll go look through the 0.5 cost powers again.

[Stingray]

Mechanically, yes. I just felt that using Crimson Orchid over stim patches added a little flavor. He's actually (I think) got a reasonable chance of making addiction tests to avoid addictions to Cram/Betameth but having to fight not to take Orchid instead of using a stim patch could make for interesting play.



I was planning on taking Spirts of Beast which have neither accident or engulf. My (revised) understanding is they'd have to manifest to hurt him at which point they can be shot. I guess keeping both the Orchid addiction AND spirit bane might be a bit much though.



I'd not considered telescoping staffs, that's an excellent idea. Distance strike I'll go read, I've not looked at the Street Magic powers so much.



Current concept is having a Sensitive System lead him to turn to drugs for an edge rather than Cyberware. I seem him starting with a little bit of bioware and aspriring to more. Same with lifestyle, low to start, aspiring to better.



I've actually just made a move by wire based char, don't want another one. I am however considering raising dodge to 4 and throwing on Increased Ability Dodge.



There are a lot of powers that don't actually seem worth taking when you consider bioware essence costs. Agi wil get taken care of with toner, I'll have to check my 2 point bioware list to see if I had bone density in there. Agreed on dropping boost to 1, I'll go look through the 0.5 cost powers again.

shooting the spirits...just one thing: Immunity to normal weapons when materialized.

[Falconer]

Yeah, I see what you mean by MbW if you've already made a street sam with it... I just think it's one of the few pieces of ware which is absolutely perfect for a wheel man. (every single bonus is relevant and unlike a lot of cyber the benefits are actually worth the cost).


Another option you may consider is the 'juicer' street sam... there's a positive quality which allows you to use one drug w/o penalty, you can even get yourself an internal organ as bioware which manufactures doses of it.


And if you like the telescoping staff. You could get one special out of chargen as a magical weapon focus.
10k per point of force (2BP), plus 1BP more per point of force to bond it. If taken w/ restricted gear (5BP) that can be up to force 4 (or force 2 w/o it).

Since you don't have killing hands, this is a very effective weapon to use against spirits within reach. Also, one of the problems w/ melee is you only get one complex action to attack. What many don't realize is you can 'multi-attack' in melee by splitting the pool against different opponents. IE: you have 8 dice in agility + clubs... You split that into 4 dice against each opponent, then add modifiers after the split... +2 reach, +4 weapon focus... you roll 10 dice against each opponent to make two quick strikes. (or 14 against a single opponent). (6BP for the force 2 focus bound, or 12+5BP for the force 4)

I'd be careful against using that in a joust though... since your GM may have it broken, since weapon foci are no stronger than their base materials are normally.

I wouldn't worry as much about pain tolerance, instead going for things like platelet factories and such to reduce damage. Then make use of 'adept centering' as your first metamagic and initiation to ignore dice penalties. (first point would allow you to ignore 3 woulds for the -1 penalty... or ignore some other -1 dice penalty). Also item attunement (bike or gun type) is another neat option after you get 2 or more init grades.

Edit: generally bonus dice from things like weapon foci are more important to melee because everyone uses reaction + skill making it a 'pure' opposed test as opposed to an 'advantaged' opposed test like ranged (where it's attribute + skill vs. attribute). This helps you regain some advantage as you end up with (attribute + skill + focus, vs. attribute + skill).

[Karoline]

shooting the spirits...just one thing: Immunity to normal weapons when materialized.

Not really an issue unless the spirit is unreasonably high force, especially if packing SnS rounds.

I am however considering raising dodge to 4 and throwing on Increased Ability Dodge.

Consider picking up gymnastics and improved ability gymnastics since it is half price. You already have melee so you can block in melee combat, and gymnastics dodge is mechanically identical to regular dodge. Also let him do cool acrobatics on his bike, which is very important for a combat biker.

[Falconer]

Bad move Karoline... you cannot use gymnastics on a bike...

In vehicular combat tests, the ONLY applicable skill is dodge. The OP wants a bike adept.


Though I would NOT spend points on improved ability dodge at all. Just put them in combat sense right away. (dodge is only used when doing full dodge... combat sense will be used each and every time, and in surprise tests and the like! For the exact same cost).

[kzt]

Being a biker adept is cool, but the bike is unlikely to be useful more than 25% of the time. If that. Unless you are running what is basically a combat biker game you need to be able to operate in a Johnson meet in a high class restaurant, sneaking into a building from a sewer and rappelling into a warehouse via the skylight. So abilities that are only usable when running a bike in combat should be thought about hard.

[Karoline]

Bad move Karoline... you cannot use gymnastics on a bike...

In vehicular combat tests, the ONLY applicable skill is dodge. The OP wants a bike adept.

Oh really. Funny, because I can't find anything that says gymnastic dodge is not an option in a vehicle (in the one and only case in which it is actually used). Is that something they added in 4a?

In actuality, since he is on his bike, he'll be using evasive maneuvers, not full dodges, and that will net him extra dice equal to his pilot skill, which would be 11 in the case of his bike.

So, if he is in melee, he uses unarmed to block.
If he is on his bike, he uses evasive maneuver to dodge.
And if he is on the ground, he can use gymnastic dodge just as well as regular dodge, and gets plenty of acrobatic and jumping ability out of the deal.

[Falconer]

Yes, you completely missed the point... look at the vehicular combat section. (as pertains to people shooting at vehicles, not characters riding inside vehicles). Look at the chart on p246... for remotely driving his bike via command (or even rigging if he ever gets a module) the applicable skill is dodge. For directly piloting, yes it's his piloting skill itself.

Even if it came down to circus riding... It's not so much a gymnastics check as a pilot check.



One of the reason for a GM is to apply some common sense. And in your example case, hell yeah I'd penalize someone trying to use gymnastics to avoid getting hit inside a small confined space like a small car or while riding a bike where their mobility is curtailed. (it's called a situational modifier and a GM has a lot of leeway in that area) They're already getting nice defensive bonuses from the armored car doors and the like in the case of a car (and a bike's balance requirements reflect directly on it's driving and where it goes). Count me in camp which hates gymnastics being the end-all be all skill that some people like it to be. It's the equivalent of one of my friends casting 'Leomunds Tiny Hut" when faced with a large wave in DnD because I quote 'It keeps out moisture'. (the barbarian dived into the wave front and came out the other side, two others did something else and took light damage... he did that and took the full brunt of it).

Look up the advantages of gymnastics dodge sometime and you'll see they're legion (especially when it comes to cyber/bio/magical augmentations). The only advantage of the actual dodge skill is if you're in vehicular or astral combat.

[Karoline]

Yes, you completely missed the point... look at the vehicular combat section. (as pertains to people shooting at vehicles, not characters riding inside vehicles). Look at the chart on p246... for remotely driving his bike via command (or even rigging if he ever gets a module) the applicable skill is dodge. For directly piloting, yes it's his piloting skill itself.

Which isn't really all that important because he doesn't plan on rigging his bike at all. And for using the command program, it would be command + vehicle skill, so dodge is once again unimportant.

Even if it came down to circus riding... It's not so much a gymnastics check as a pilot check.

And your point is? I already stated that he would be using vehicle checks and not dodge (gymnastic or otherwise)

One of the reason for a GM is to apply some common sense. And in your example case, hell yeah I'd penalize someone trying to use gymnastics to avoid getting hit inside a small confined space like a small car or while riding a bike where their mobility is curtailed. (it's called a situational modifier and a GM has a lot of leeway in that area) They're already getting nice defensive bonuses from the armored car doors and the like in the case of a car (and a bike's balance requirements reflect directly on it's driving and where it goes).

There already is a situational modifier for that, it is -2, and applies to both gymnastic and regular dodge.

Count me in camp which hates gymnastics being the end-all be all skill that some people like it to be. It's the equivalent of one of my friends casting 'Leomunds Tiny Hut" when faced with a large wave in DnD because I quote 'It keeps out moisture'. (the barbarian dived into the wave front and came out the other side, two others did something else and took light damage... he did that and took the full brunt of it).

It isn't an 'end-all-be-all' skill. It is simply better than dodge in a large number of situations. There are however disadvantages associated with it, the largest of which perhaps is that it isn't an integral part of melee defense, meaning you'll have to invest in a melee skill as well in order to cover yourself. And while yes, boosting it via tech and adept powers is a bit easier than boosting dodge, dodge gets a really easy +2 from specializing at the low cost of 2 karma compared to tens of thousands of nuyen and some essence.

So yeah, good, and often more useful, but not always.

As for the comparison, that is entirely dissimilar. Gymnastic dodge is quite plain in what it does, there is no voodoo rules quick switches or taking advantage of bad wording here, there is no claiming that 'moisture' is the same as a tidal wave. And honestly, if the barbarian dove through the wave without serious consequence, I don't think the hut would have been overly troubled.

Look up the advantages of gymnastics dodge sometime and you'll see they're legion (especially when it comes to cyber/bio/magical augmentations). The only advantage of the actual dodge skill is if you're in vehicular or astral combat.

Legion? Anyway, as I said, vehicular combat is only relevant if you are rigging, and I didn't realize it could be used in astral combat, thought you used the... well, the astral combat skill. I'll have to look that up. Maybe for duel natured dodging an astral punch or something.

[Zyerne]

Back (vaguely) on topic...

Having gone over the qualities again to find something to replace Spirit Bane, I'm looking at Simsense Vertigo.

That'd sacrifice 1 die in 2 specific areas - no AR bonus for biking but I'm looking 18-20 dice there anyway so I don't think it's a huge issue. The other is with firearms, trading down from a smart link to a laser sight. Would still have 14 dice there once specialised which should be adequate

Question is, what positive modifiers can apply to firearms skillswhen using two weapons? (after the pool has been split) I know you lose smartlink/laser sight and according to the faq, specialisting is included pre split, not after. .

[Karoline]

Very very little. If not for the FAQ I'd say that spec should apply after the split (Well, I still do, but won't go into that). Only thing I can think of that applies after the split is weapon focus and personal grip, but both of those are only for melee weapons. Reflex recorder and the adept power are both direct increases to the skill (limited by the 1.5 max) and so apply before the split as well.

Expect to take alot more after the split adjustments in the negative direction than positive (poor vision, wound modifiers, etc)

[Nifft]

For -10 points of cheese, you could always be addicted (-5) to something harmless like Betel gum, and another -5 for Incompetence in something you don't care about.

A slightly milder form of cheese is -10 points for an Allergy (mild, common). Sample characters have things like "sunlight" and "seawater".

IMHO with Dodge and your Vehicle skill so high, you ought to leave open the possibility of rigging. Having two riggers in the group only increases your options as a group.

[Falconer]

Simsense vertigo also applies to smartgun bonus... (smartguns are an AR bonus). Think of it this way... the AR bonus for vehicles works by placing a moving map and vehicle stats as a virtual heads up display. (a visual overlay). All a smartgun does is the exact same thing except for firearms. That said, just use laser sights (+1 instead of +2... and you'd lose out on some of the smartgun bonuses... like fast eject and the such, though you can make some of them up with the nimble fingers adept power (1 rank for .25 or .5 point... allows you a lot of nifty uses).


Karoline:
No, look at the chart... defending while remotely piloting a drone/vehicle is command (in place of response) +- handling. The equivalent full defense is not vehicle skill... it's the dodge skill. (look at the chart on the page I referenced).

[Dakka Dakka]

Yup Specialization applies after the split by RAW and the FAQ never cared too much about RAW. Still splitting the dicepool is not such a good idea. Better use each weapon only once and in melee use one of them as full defense with the MA maneuver from Arsenal.

How do you remote control a motor cycle?

[Zyerne]

Both the T-250 and the SPAS-22 are magazine fed which neither smartgun or nimble fingers seems to help with. Apart from the -1 die loss, about the only thing I'd lose out is quicker firing mode changes.

[Dakka Dakka]

With a smartgun you can eject the clip detachable magazine as a Free Action. Mechanically it is a simple action.

[Zyerne]

From my reading they both have internal magazines that can only be reloaded [Agility] rounds as a complex action.

The simple solution is Quick Draw (power) and extra shotguns.

[Falconer]

Yeah I forgot about that... I basically talked my local GM into allowing me to load a single round into a shotgun internal mag using nimble fingers as a simple action. (normally a complex loads agility rounds). It's basically a way to fast load stunbunny (SnS, we house rule SnS doesn't change damage code... light pistol is 4S... while a shotgun is 8S given the size/mass/slow speed of the projectile), shok-lok, capsule, or other 'special' rounds quickly and fire them in the same pass.

More or less I wanted something like Chrno Cross or Hellsing, where they pack a single big gun and load a single 'special' round into it now and then.

More or less, simsense vertigo + smartgun means... you get +2 smartgun (AR) bonus and a bunch of faster gun actions... but you then immediately offset it with a -2 vertigo penalty. Also the GM should apply the penalty to any and all tests you make while using simsense... even those which don't benefit from the AR bonus. (like say dodge... your balance is off from the vertigo).


Nimble Fingers: (0.25 PP)
+1 to palming and other slight of hand tests involving manual dexterity. Additionally, insert clip, pick up/put down object, remove clip, and use simple object are considered free actions for the adept.

IE: you could drop a command detonated grenade, and then detonate it at any time using your free actions. (You're not limited to spending your free action each pass on your action phase, you can us eit at any time in the pass). Normally it would be a simple action. (IE: like when the car behind you drives over it... which should lead to some interesting chunky salsa effects as the blast wave bounces off the pavement and the bottom of the car a few times).

[Banaticus]

A smartlink means the gun has a built in camera -- you can just poke your hand around the corner and start shooting without endangering any other part of your body. Similarly, you can point your gun behind you while you ride and still see what you're aiming at. With a laser sight, you have to turn and look.

[Falconer]

Banaticus....

And why can you... because the gun uses an augmented reality display on your glasses/contacts/cybereyes. And draws it's aim point, number of bullets left, firemode, etc... (the gun is more than just a camera... in arsenal they actually have a guncam! which is just a camera)

All the smartgun is is apply the Augmented Reality (AR) bonus to gunplay.


Simsense vertigo is a great situational negative... it actually has a drawback, and stops the character from making use of a very common tool to gain some bonus dice.
That is a -2 penalty to anything you do while using AR, VR, or simsense. (no different than the penalty you'd take to everything you do while having a minor allergy to sunlight or similar negative quality).

[Zyerne]

While I'm thinking about it, how would people spend a point of essence on bioware for this character?

It'll be two points eventually, but Synaptic Accelerators are a given, it's the other point I'm curious about.

(Although, in the name of milking the system, I believe the FAQ essentially says I can take Genetic Heritage and get those Synaptics free.)

[Falconer]

No, I glanced at the FAQ... and the quality... I believe it only allows you to get basic "bioware". Synaptic is "cultured bioware". (look in the core book, the two types are considered different... and things like biocompatibility quality only apply to basic, not cultured.

This would allow you to get something like Muscle Toner 4 out the gate right out of chargen. (one nifty thing about the quality is it doesn't specify an availability limit, though your GM will likely impose one... then again muscle toner is 'cheap' as in not costly in nuyen, only in availability, he might let it slide).


Another piece of basic bioware I highly recommend is platelet factories. (if you take more than 2 points of damage, you automatically 'soak' and reduce damage by one point).

Orthoskin is normally very expensive in nuyen... but the quality allows you to get it for no nuyen and only the essence cost.. +3 impact & ballistic armor is pretty good for 'normal' skin.

Enhanced Articulation is something which is generally shunned by the more powergamers (they prefer things like synthacardium for a huge increase to gymnastics and the like). But it's pretty good for what it does... +1 dice to ALL physical skills linked and used w/ physical attributes. IE: melee combat, dodge, manually driving a bike, shooting a gun, stealth tests (agi + infiltration), etc. But it's decent for a well rounded player.

Chem gland might be of interest from augmentation but probably not.


Cultured bioware:
You already mentioned synaptic... talk with your GM... many stick with the rule you don't 'upgrade' you 'replace' one rating enhancement with another... if you're lucky you can sell the replaced mod for half price and put it towards the new kit... but this is still expensive.

Pain editor is great (+1 willpower when on, and you can't be knocked out... stun damage won't take you down until it fully overflows your physical track).

Trauma Damper is also kinda cute... (convert 1P -> 1S or 1S -> nothing... it also works with the platelet factories)


Something else to keep in mind, so long as cyber essence total is less than bioware... you half the cyber total. So sensitive system paired with less cyber than bio... means you can get cyber for normal cost, provided the doubled cyber total remains less than your bioware total essence loss. Usefull for low essence things like cybereyes/ears if you ever decided that was of interest.

[Zyerne]

I too only glanced at the FAQ, didn't spot the basic only. It'll get me a suprathyroid for a diff char though, worth remembering.

Back to the biker, I think I'm looking at

Muscle Toner 2
Enhanced Articulation
Trauma Damper
Gecko Hands

I might even be able to find the BP for that lot at char gen.

[Nifft]

look in the core book, the two types are considered different... and things like biocompatibility quality only apply to basic, not cultured.

Perhaps you are thinking of "Type-O System"? That specifies Basic, rather than Cultured. The quality Biocompatibility seems to apply to both.