 Costs for a hospital grade breast pump, Single mothers on the run. |
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 Feb 12 2006, 01:28 AM
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#26
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Horror  Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445  |
And SL: Generalizations are, on the whole, a safe bet when they are, on the whole, applicable.
You are the exception to the rule. That dosen't give you liscence to tear a strip outta me, it gives you a liscence to say that you're the exception. I can accept an exception, though frag knows why you want to play a runner handicapped with such a huge liability. I can't accept some self-rightious ass deciding to tear a strip out of me. |
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Feb 12 2006, 01:57 AM
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#27
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Somehow I feel like the incredible growth of telecommunication networks by 2060 will have made the major fees that go along with cell phones significantly lessened, to the point that cell phone fees are in the area of $5-30, hence, not really worth counting.
As for the original topic, I don't see this as being especially invasive. .1 would be the most I'd charge for an implanted, DNI controlled breastpump. I personally would lower it to .05, since I"m not in the habit of penalizing characters for superior roleplaying. Monetary cost would probably be around two to three times the cost of the non-implanted pump, and I presume it would be made such that removal is easy (and significant components can even be removed by the user in question, for HIS pleasure, if you get what I mean.) I'm also pretty sure you can get a pump for less than $150 (althoug not necessarily hospital grade). I believe we got ours in the range of $70 new. |
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Feb 12 2006, 04:45 AM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 388 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,885 |
okay, basically there's a qoute that says any current cost for unlisted items to equate to current items. Now...
Let's see. umm no. look at various phones look at the without special service price... it's not a issue of the knife bieng unbalanced, but so much as thinking the price of the knife is only due to the knife but not it's contents.
You probably think the homeless bum with amonthly cost of ZERO is including his cell phones cost...
the prices listed are for the RAW prices, not including promotionals, which is what most cell phone companys advertise at. Again, the shadowrun universe is set at roughly a 1:1 ratio of the current world. Don't try and act like it's worth sooo much more then currently when the monthly salary hasn't increased by even a fraction of the price. (go read your source books and fiction books to get the appropriate atmosphere) |
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Feb 12 2006, 05:56 AM
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#29
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Self-righteous? I am as righteous as God's wrath.
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Feb 12 2006, 06:45 AM
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#30
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Show me that quote.
Who's to say the SR cell phone isn't without some service pricings? It never goes into detail about how Renraku charges what it charges for what services. It just says it does.
Finish reading, would you? If you pay 0 for lifestyle, you get nothing in return. No food, no utilities, no cell. Nothing.
Where does it say that in the sourcebooks?
And, again, I'll ask for a quote. Sourcebook, exact page number. Canon, please. No "Plastic Warriors" or "Blackjack's Pages". Sure, they're handy resources, but they aren't canon.
By what example? The 3 point flaw that says you have to work 40 hours per week and get 5k out of it a month? It doesn't say if that's a high-end job or just another Stuffer Shack worker. It's so open-ended it could be "paint licker" for all we know. Low Lifestyle is 1k per month. Where I've lived, on the equivalent of Low, was nowhere near 1k per month. Now, maybe my area is cheaper. Who knows? But 1k per month? No way. Maybe in NYC or California. And if you're rooming with someone, that's 500 per month. That's more believable, on a single-person basis. And 5k a month for middle lifestyle? For what, a house with a two-car garage and maybe a portable basketball hoop in the driveway? No. Sure, some of the prices are pretty damn close. Most of them? Off. Way off. |
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Feb 12 2006, 07:02 AM
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#31
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,011 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Incorrect. You get food in return (SR3 p62: "[…] eating out of the trash"). Also, cellphones are not covered under any lifestyle description, as mentioned above. You're right that you get no cell with Street, but you don't get it with Luxury either. ~J |
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Feb 12 2006, 07:38 AM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 388 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,885 |
you're pretty defensive, admit you're wrong and move on. now if you want to compare things look at things like the following. Music (page 286 of sr source book, 20 nuyen a disk/chip roughly what we pay now) Ordinary Clothing is like 50 nueyn a set. (gee roughly what it costs at wal-mart) save for shoes, but we usually figure socks/underwear/pants/shirt as a outfit, not the shoes since that's normally a higher expense Now lets look at shadowrunner expenses, sound suprresser is listed as 750 nuyen in sr3 page 282. now look at the following link http://www.impactguns.com/store/aac_pistol.html I see quite a few at the 699.00 range. need I provide more evidence then random things? sure I can. we've covered the controversial silencers and the mundane music disks and clothing... Lets see... what else is there, ah yeah cars! Let's see scooter for 2k, check look at a samsclub for the prices (yeah it's cheap, but for the bigger versions it's easy to see 1k-2k apiece) let's see a expensive high class/profile bike like a harly-davidson scorpion... 12,700? http://www.harley-davidson.com/PR/MOT/2006...elsection=specs let's see 10k, and that's the first hog I found listed on the home page. so I guess you can make a case for about 20% inflation. IE 1.2 x current prices but. this 1:5 or greater ratio? yeah right, again you've deluded yourself based off of one singular thing.
I live in ohio, the equivilent of median america basically (*seriously look it up, it's the measuring stick of america basically) 1k a month is roughly how much most normal people single married or not, spend on rent, utilitites, and food. Have you looked at the national poverty guidelines? how our government measures poverty yeah sorry 12k a year is poverished, regardless of how well you've managed, it's a low lifestyle anyone spending 1k a month on living will tell you this, or less. The middle lifestyle you can definatly bring up, this is where the speration of the well to do and badly off begins in SR. SR is a gritty game, even if semi-reliastically based in our current setting. There is a larger desparity between the poor and even moderatly well off. Wealth is concentrated in a even smaller set of hands then currently. To think the middle lifestyle is silly is odd considering the fiction setting of this game. While people are able to survive, and even to a simliar level say high school/college drop outs are able to now (even if lucky with obligations and jobs) is silly to think they can leap to a comfortable cushy lifestyle your nearly retired parents may have. Just because the source book doesn't say a cell phone costs 500 nuyen with promitionals doesn't mean it's implied. To assume something positive of what's a simple tech, even today is plain retarded.
Because that's part of the lifestyle. Lifestyle covers basic living expenses, occasionally eating out, whatever level food it says it includes, transportation of approriate level and a living area of appropriate level. Middle lifestyle includes (if you read your book) a modest car to drive, presumably on lease or monthly payment and the insurance if needed to drive it etc. You simply came up with a figure not based in anything and are stretching to prove it, just give it up and accept that it might be a bit lower then you originally stated. ie maybe 20% more. |
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Feb 12 2006, 11:08 AM
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#33
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
If you really want one I would say twice the essence and nuyen cost of an externally assessable auto injector.
That said I would not expect them to be implanted very often it doesn’t seem necessary or practical to me. Non implant models would usually be a function of lifestyle. Or between 50 and 500nuyen And I don’t think it’s a bad idea. On the trauma patch issue. Nothing that good is available for purchase as far as I know, I would have expected it to rate a mention in my first aid training. And if I recall correctly the trauma patch would cost more to buy than the combat knife. The best items for comparison of nuyen rates are items that have been available in the real world for a long time without becoming greatly more or less common. I would use lifestyle cost (assume low lifestyle is full time minimum wage, no tips), an average camera (non digital real world), basic clothing things like that Liper got it right. This is what I get for typing before reading the last post Edward |
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Feb 12 2006, 04:20 PM
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#34
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
I go back to the quote in the core rulebook. "And so on." Blanket statement, that. It never specifically states that cell phone bills are covered, nor does it not state that.
Why? My opinion is that things are grossly inflated in many instances, and not in others.
And in the same case, a player costing 200 nuyen is inflated. I payed $100 for mine, and it's top of the line with MP3 CD playback. 100% inflation on that item.
If you shop at Wal-Mart, sure. But even then, a pair of pants at Wal-Mart is maybe $15, a t-shirt probably $15, and then several pair of socks and underwear (boxers or briefs) to bring that to $50. So, after doing the division (8 pair of socks per pack, so roughly $1.50 per pair, same with underwear), that comes to $33. Not quite so grossly inflated as the music player, but still close. Delusion? No. Simply stating. Remember, Shadowrun is Cyberpunk, therefore Dystopian. If you want to play it flavored with cute and cuddly ratios, that's your thing. In my world, unless you've got that SIN, you're paying over the top for all items that are illegal. A sound supressor is $750 -- if you get it legally, which means having a SIN. Otherwise, you're paying upwards of $1,500. And that's if the guy is feeling nice.
On the same instance, nor does it mean it isn't implied. Nowhere does it say what the ratio of USD:nuyen is, nor does it say what company offers what special costs for which items.
And, again, I refer to the quote above the descriptions. "And so on". It leaves it pretty wide open to the imagination, doesn't it? For all we know, "and so on" refers to cheap hookers on Friday nights for the lonely and single man. Does it say that it's included? No. Does it say it isn't included? Nope. Nowhere is it referenced in lifestyle costs. Just because it lists only those things does it mean nothing else is ever included.
I didn't say all items are inflated horribly, just quite a few. (Yes, most, quite a few, whatever.) Some items are pretty damn close -- if you acquire them legally. Others are way off by any stretch of the imagination. |
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Feb 12 2006, 07:06 PM
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#35
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,011 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I quote the core rulebook:
(emphasis added) Need I get more explicit? Some things have been specifically included in contravention of the above quote (particularly Matrix access). Cell phone bills are not amongst these items. ~J |
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Feb 12 2006, 07:30 PM
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#36
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Ai carumba. Both of you, shut the #^*#&^ up about it.
Cell Phone Service is not a Big enough Deal to pester Shadowrunners over. Just have them pay a one-time rate to a Trix-fixer. |
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Feb 12 2006, 07:55 PM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 388 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,885 |
You continue to astound me. you know what street markup and availability due to item costs in shadowrun right? What they list (and they say this) is the price to aqquire things legally. To get illegal items illegally in shadowrun, the rules have always said the price is higher (or in some cases like say street line specials where everyone in the market is selling one, maybe less but that's the joy of illegal goods)
Again, shadowrun has that. Gee the silencer is 750 legally, add in the street index (see you don't have to make up a mechanic for aquiring illegal items, it's already in the game you're still not a special flower) and voila upwards of 1500! wow!
It's not going to say it because that's the GMs job to make things fleshed out for flavor. Everything in shadowrun, to gurps, to rifts, to dnd, to vampire, etc are sources, base information etc. We all know cell phone companys probably aren't going to stop discounting phones if you get thier service, specially 1-2 year plans. We also know they aren't going to waste space in a source book that's already over 300 pages long describing wireless phone service plans when regular phone service is included in lifestyles that can reasonablly support it. yes, a holophone that's sota will run 500bucks, (about what our sota phones cost) does that mean there aren't cheaper? no, but this is the price listed for those that are say on a run and lose thiers, or need to get a untapped phone during the course of game play etc, you're a idiot to hinge you're entire argument on a phone.
very few are inflated how you're talking about, after street index maybe, but for the most part anything you find in a shadowrun source book and we have a current equivlent of, it's going to be about the same price give or take about 20% |
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Feb 12 2006, 08:27 PM
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#38
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,011 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
You want to play this game? Sure, let's play this game. Wire clippers: Shadowrun ¥25, real life $10, 250% inflation. Standard ammunition, one round (as part of larger lot): Shadowrun ¥2, real life ~27¢, 750% inflation Synthetic leather jacket: Shadowrun ¥250, real life $20, 1250% inflation Throwing knife: Shadowrun ¥20, real life ~$7, 285% inflation. I don't have time to play this game anymore. ~J |
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Feb 12 2006, 09:30 PM
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#39
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Nor do I. Calling somebody an idiot then telling them to give in is a surefire way to not get them to admit something.
Kagetenshi: I missed that part. Lifestyle doesn't cover tech (though in some instances it said it covered Matrix/Trideo), but covers everything else. While slightly nonsensical, it has its merits. One final note: Inflation isn't quite the world I'm looking for. Just monetary conversion. Some items are far more expensive (as Kage pointed out), some are far cheaper. It all depends on the item. |
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Feb 12 2006, 10:18 PM
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#40
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Shadowrun doesn't account for brand name pricing. Better brands cost more. Cheaper brands cost less. Having a single nuyen price for all brands of an item saves the designers the trouble of creating a table of brand names, which is a shame.
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Feb 13 2006, 12:09 AM
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#41
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
I think that in the world of Shadowrun rather than buying a breast pump a mother could just buy some kind of super future formula.
IRL, infant formula makes babies die all over the world by depriving them or nutrition and antibodies and exposing them to unnecessary pathogens. By chosing formula over breast milk because they've been duped by marketing and then doing gnarsty things like diluting it for economy purposes, many mothers injure their babies tremendously when everything would have been fine if they've just used breast milk. Therefore, I would argue that it would be more disutopian and keeping in the spirit of shadowrun if your single mother character kept buying formula and then wondering aloud why the baby kept getting skinnier and skinnier. "Hey, chummer, can you cast cure disease on my baby again? I think it's got Hepatitis B again..." A cyber breast pump that ensures a supply of milk at all times sounds more like the territory of some fetishist than a practical piece of equipment. If it were available, as a GM I'd make it available from some Japanese cyber sex toy company. Otherwise I'd just say the mother would have to use malnourishing formula and I'd crack Heptatitis B magical cure jokes the whole time. Also, an infant is obviously a weakness that a character has. But if a shadowrunner has a family, it's the same basic weakness. So I don't think the infant is an enormous weakness. I mean, I have to say that it's probably a bit lame to make *all* your characters have no family so that they can't have the family be held hostage. |
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Feb 13 2006, 12:33 AM
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#42
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Ah yes, the old "family is a weakness because it doesn't give you numerical bonuses or kewl powers" argument again.
It reminds me of why I stay at DS. On the cell phone thing, personally, I usually just go with the basic idea that's been put forth about how since most 'runners are using illegally functioning cellphones, they just pay for the "account" to be set up when they buy it. Illegal phone service, sure, but it works, and everything else they do is illegal too. My players' characters tend to be the "I've used this phone for a couple of jobs, time to throw it away and get a new one", so it would be far more trouble than it's worth to me to have them go through figuring out where their phone bill factors in. :) |
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Feb 13 2006, 01:00 AM
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#43
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
I like that idea, Wounded Ronin. Of course, it still comes back to the idea that the shadowrunner isn't just your average Joe, and as such, may be both responsible AND intelligent. But I would agree with the basic idea, formula is more likely to be sold (for that corporate lady on the go!) And then there's the question of what all is put into said formula to help cut costs... Yummm...
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Feb 13 2006, 04:27 AM
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#44
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
As a RL price check from cell phone happy Hong Kong, monthly cell phone service runs from around 8-25 USD a month, depending on how many bells and whistles you want. You can even get by for even less using pre-paid minnute cards, if you don't talk on the phone that much.
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Feb 13 2006, 04:28 AM
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#45
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Heh, just by human milk at the grocery store, right next to the tastee-ghoul section (cloned human meat at prices you love!).
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Feb 13 2006, 05:54 AM
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#46
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
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Feb 13 2006, 07:15 AM
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#47
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
I believe lifestyle does include cell phone.
Earlier in this thread somebody quoted SR3 main as lifestyle including utilities, phones are utilities, the level of lifestyle determines the quality of utilities you get. Looking to the real world in Australia where I live almost everybody has a mobile phone, even people that are on the dole usually managed to pick up a second hand phone for AU$50 and risk running out of prepaid credit if they don’t ration usage, this is the level of phone utility I would give to a character with a low lifestyle. Mod lifestyle includes a post payed contract you don’t have to worry about the expense of, above that you have some form of mobile matrix access. Squatter can include mobile access but with very limited calls (prepaid accounts are cheep to set up and your paying for the phone so that doesn’t come from lifestyle) as gm I would probably have them runout of credit every few runs, phone access for a street lifestyle is staying near a payphone and giving your fixer that number. On the subject of throwing out phones this has no impact on my system. You can buy sim cards today that come with as much credit as they cost, a phone that costs as much as one listed in BBB should come with a nice amount of prepaid credit so even cheep shit lifestyles don’t have a problem. Edward |
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Feb 13 2006, 07:19 AM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 388 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,885 |
You sure you're not buying something from a flea market? Ace is the place... Ammo, fairly cheap box of ammo while it is a little cheaper now, it's still roughly the same. (that's a 25round box I believe) |
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Feb 13 2006, 07:38 AM
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#49
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,011 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Entirely certain. This one is more expensive than the one I was looking at, but your own site doesn't support you.
As for ammo, it is nowhere near the same. Have a nice day, please stop wasting our time. ~J |
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Feb 13 2006, 07:41 AM
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#50
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Yeah, if you're picking the most obscure and unusual ammunition you can. Let's go all the way: .50BMG runs about $2/round. Success! Canon doesn't inflate prices out of mindless ignorance after all!
Only, no. A case of 9x19mm from Wolf will run you a fuckload less than $2/round. $119 for 1,000 rounds: 1681% inflation. Wire cutters at Sears will cost around $10. The prices are inflated, and now you're just grabbing at straws. |
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