 Templars, Shamans/Other traditions allowed? |
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 Sep 28 2004, 08:56 AM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 556 Joined: 28-May 04 From: Moorhead, MN, USA Member No.: 6,367  |
Synner: I do acknowledge your disclaimer. I enjoy reasoned debate.
In my previous post, I implied that a shaman may identify his totem as an angelic being. Though this is what I wrote, it was not what I was thinking. Angel--meaning messenger--is a direct dispatch from God. Could a shaman identify his totem as a superior being (not angel), accept the gift of magic from that being, and subject himself to his totem without believing that the totem is God or directly represents God? I'm thinking the situation parallels a vassal swearing allegiance to his lord. In this situation, the vassal would be a good Catholic, as would the lord. In medieval times, kings' and lords' authority was believed by the (Catholic) Church to be given by God, but the kings and lords did not represent God. (Thus vassals weren't heretics for swearing fealty.) In this way a shaman could interact with his totem in a traditional way but understand that there is a higher power above them both. An evil or even merely non-Catholic shaman would be assumed to follow a totem that was rebelling against God or "not walking in the fullness of truth." (This last is a phrase my good Catholic friend uses for protestants.) This totem would be denying God in much the same way that a person might. The reason I'm fighting so hard for the Catholic Church allowing (though probably not encouraging) shamanism is the problem of conversion. The way you state it, a convert would have to chose between the God given gift of magic (not miraculous but as God gives all abilities) and the God who gave it. As the Church does not view magic as inherently evil, I can't see why they'd force a convert to Catholicism to deny a gift which can be used so powerfully to serve God. If the Catholic Church is to retain credibility, they will have to acknowledge the existence of totems. If they define them as angels and demons, there are many problems which you have well defined. If they define them as "other" I don't see why being a shaman would be necessarily heretical. [EDIT]toturi: nice quotes. I don't have Threats 2. Looks like I should get it.[/EDIT] |
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Sep 28 2004, 09:38 AM
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#27
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
The quote above in no way invalidates that claim. After all, if the gode weren't being misled they'd come to the light and use their powers for Christ, would they not? ~J |
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Sep 28 2004, 02:23 PM
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#28
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
torturi - You missed the rather telling quote which immediately proceeded those quotes and gives them context (emphasis mine):
* Referred to in canon as Theurgy (Grimoires, Germany, MitS). The IC reference to this being a Hermetic "school of magic" clearly indicates the Templars are aware it is a form of hermetic magic and further along even makes a comparison with "standard hermetics". This is again referred in passing in the Game Info (p.109) actually specifying "Magical characters of all hermetic types fit fairly easily into one of the Patronages [...]". The whole issue of invocation of angels vs. spirits is why I clearly stated that I hadn't addressed the ramifications of the issue of the nature of spirits. To the normal clergy and to the Conservative hierarchy the Templar's approach would be extremely controversial bordering the heretical (and very probably why the Templars remain secretive even within the Church and the Sylvestrine Order). If anything the Sylvestrine's association with the Druids in TNO and their links to diverse congregations and Catholic-magic users the world over (ie. they run magic schools for the underprivileged in GeMiTo and elsewhere) indicates they are far more tolerant of diversity in practice and magic styles (possibly even beliefs) than the Catholic zealots of the New Templar Order. In fact after some research I came to the conclusion that the most likely reason for naming them the Order of St. Sylvester is a reference to a small but influential RL Benedictine sub-order known as the Sylvestrines, that prospered in Ireland and Wales (amongst other places) in the Middle Ages and made inroads into the communities by taking a less confrontational approach to local beliefs than the continental Church and incorporating a number of local traditions into the locally practiced liturgy. Note I'm not saying there aren't shamans in the Catholic Church just that they don't fit in well, face numerous doctrinal issues and are the rare exception rather than the rule. For instance under Christian Magic, MitS does indicate that (emphasis mine) "Most theurgists follow strict hermetic practices and belong to distinct hermetic schools" and that "some liberal and 'revivalist' theologies produce shamanistic magicians, and certain Catholics may treat various patron saints as idols [...]" (though in the light of Threats 2 the later could mean hermetics too). The whole way shamans perform magic almost intuitively is counter to the Christian view in SR, ie. "Catholic and other Christian theologies cearefuly regulate the use of magic according to the tenet of their faith" and "Conjuring, in particular, is rigorously scrutinized lest the faithful be led into sin through such practices" (which in the case of the RCC demands Papal dispensation for priests to perform). |
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Sep 28 2004, 02:41 PM
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#29
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
There is a subtle but significant difference between mistakenly using a (neutral) God-given gift in the name of a "false idol" or for evil - which makes it a moral, cultural or social choice but ultimately a human one - and being able to tap Divine power and use it for the same ends is just impossible since according to Catholic doctrine isn't even possible since Divine power is inherently Good and can't be used in this way. So the gode above would always be following a "false god" but doing so in error or out of false belief, however despite this "misuse" his Gift still works (and has objectively quantifiable effects) and under Imago Dei it is not inherently evil (which Satanic black magic would be). The problem with Totems and Idols is that while you might get away with incorporating some of them into Catholic cosmology as some form of higher spirits, others are simply impossible to integrate without significantly revising Catholic doctrine (namely many of the animistic and pagan Idols). I agree with where you're coming from regarding the conversion issue. I do believe it's a problem the Church would face (though given its track record I doubt it would review its position in the short time since the Awakening). On the other hand I would suggest that those (exceptional) Catholic magicians that are shamans/Idol followers (mentioned in MitS, see my post above) would include most of the converts, and as traditionally in the modern RCC converts have a tendency to gravitate towards the various Cults of the Saints (which are Church approved), these would probably be found amongst the local dedicated Diocesian clergy and in Rules/Orders serving in places like Lourdes and Fatima, rather than among the stricter Templar and Sylvestrine hierarchies where they would face integration problems. |
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Sep 28 2004, 03:07 PM
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#30
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Yet there is no SR Canon game mechanic that prohibits shamans from joining up, roleplaying difficulties aside. If there were, then it would have been reflected in the Strictures of that magical group, but there are not. While what you pointed out are the RP aspects and difficulties of such a character, there is nothing game mechanics-wise that prohibits such a PC. Also, there is the all-encompassing "Papal dispensation", as long as God's Own Johnson on Earth says it is okay, it is okay. |
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Sep 28 2004, 08:40 PM
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#31
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Very true, hence my disclaimers and the fact that I've suggest what I believe are "plausible" ways of integrating shamans into the Church despite the bias. If I haven't been clear, what I've been commenting on is almost exclusively in the province of "fluff" and the potential RP dificulties of a reasonably grounded portrayal of the RCC and its magicians (which is what should be expected at least from canon in a setting like SR) - way too many black and white portrayals of the Church were what got me to writing it up the way I did for SoE. I hope the posts prove informative and come in useful in understanding why magic in the RCC has been portrayed the way it has in recent (and upcoming) books, but even if these had been quotes of hard and fast rules, individual gamers and GMs should always tweak and change anything they feel doesn't reflect their own understanding of the setting. And yeah, "Papal Infallibility" is a good thing to have on your side, it makes things like even the wierdest "special dispensations" plausible... |
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