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toturi
I was rereading Threats 2, when... I saw that the Templars did not restrict membership to only Hermetic mages. All you need to be is Awakened! And be an ordained priest...

So going by the game mechanics it is possible that a shaman or even a Tir Path mage be a Templar. What is your take on this?
Herald of Verjigorm
That ordained priest thing is pretty limiting. I got the impression (somewhere...) that the Catholic Church only accepts magic by study, meaning shamen and voodoo is downright unacceptable (except for the Voodoo Catholic Church in Central America).
Kagetenshi
I could see some totems (Creator and Dragonslayer, especially) fitting right in. They could also have a magic by study sort of mindset, though what they're studying is as likely to be a bible to receive the knowledge of Yaweh the Creator or Christ the Dragonslayer.

~J
Herald of Verjigorm
Whatever you do, don't try to join up if you are an adversary shaman.
Kagetenshi
That would be such an awesome mini-adventure.


~J
toturi
Personally I think that even totems like Sky Father, Wise Warrior, or even Sun can be accepted, although there isn't anything that forbids Adversary to join up (if he does at all).

And I do not think that Templars or the Catholic church requires magic by study only... after all, Divine Inspiration and Revelations from God are part and parcel of the Catholic faith.
Zenmaxer
I could see an Adversary shaman considering the templar or especially the catholic reform movement to be in a very subtle way one of the highest rebellions... the rebellion of authority itself.
toturi
Advocatus Diabloli, maybe.
Cain
Idol shamans in general could easily be saint followers under the Catholic ideal. I believe M&M even mentions as much.
Kremlin KOA
uh templars are listed as hermetic only, but order of st sylverter might avccept shamans of appropriate forms, an archangel or saint representing the totem qualities in question
toturi
QUOTE (Kremlin KOA)
uh templars are listed as hermetic only, but order of st sylverter might avccept shamans of appropriate forms, an archangel or saint representing the totem qualities in question

Reread your Threats 2 again. They need to be Awakened Roman Catholic Priests, no limit on tradition per se.
Edward
Only some totems would be accepted, being known as a hogan is likely to result in excommunication and then your not a priest any more. There is a section on miracles in MITS that I have not red properly but it could be relevant, some other totems such as mentioned by Kagetenshi would also fit right in.

Edward
toturi
You know those loa spirits could theorectically be thought of as messengers from God. You know, like a prophet?
Da9iel
Did anybody mention ye olde dove shaman? That fits right in with Holy Spirit symbology.
Kagetenshi
But less so with the Templars.

~J
Cain
In real life, the bruja often consider the various Catholic patron saints to be Loa in their own right. It all depends on the form.
Synner
There's more on the issue of Magic and Christianity, and particularly Catholicism in SOTA64 (as well as a bit in SoE).

Basically shamans/idol followers of any type have a hard time fitting into the Catholic paradigm, let alone becoming priests. Shamanic magic comes from the belief in a very personal relationship with a shaman's totem/patron/deity of choice. However, the Catholic Church believes in a clear division between the divine (miracle) and the simply mystical (magic) - this is clearly stated in MitS and previous books - and in fact one of the Sylvestrine's missions is to investigate and distinguish instances of both. While "divine inspiration" and "revelations" are part of the Catholic paradigm they are gifts exclusively reserved for Sainthood and claiming or even believing oneself to be a saint is contranatura to any formally trained Catholic priest (the same however might not be said of many of the Evangelical Christian denominations and some of the obscure Orthodox sects), doubly so when Catholic dogma says magic is not divine by nature and magic users are not inherently touched by God (ie. Imago Dei).

This poses a Catch-22 problem for any devoted Catholic who happens to be a shaman. Believing that his magic is of "divine" inspiration is a big no-no since that is basically assuming a gift reserved to Saints and would fall under the cardinal sin of vanity (which in turn excludes Sainthood). This dogmatic contradiction means shamans would have a very hard time reconciling their beliefs with the foundation of Catholic clerical thought, and hence are unlikely to ever become priests (and I'm not even getting into the prejudice and possible accusations of heresy they might draw from the hierarchy). Theurgy, as Christian magic theory is known, one the other hand is a neutral version of Hermeticism, purged of the heretical and subversive pagan influences and revised to remain consistent with doctrine - it assumes the Gift is a God-given talent like any other and that magic is a neutral force to be manipulated for good or for evil depending on intent.

On the other hand the Catholic Church does accept the Cult of the Saints, and it is plausible that hermetic devotees of particular Saints might gain benefits similar to those presented in Threats 2 for the Templars' Archangel patrons.
PiXeL01
I seem to recall that it is written that the Catholic Priests are all Hermetic Mages. The problem is .. I cant remember where I read it. Could be SoE hell even threats2
Kagetenshi
It's simple enough to believe that one's powers are granted by God and yet not divine in nature. People believe it all the time in regard to more mundane abilities.

~J
Synner
Note my comment on it being seen as a "God-given talent like any other". However I will note that that is not in itself a shamanic perception.

Shamans believe that the higher power they are linked to is not only the original source of their Gift, but that it is an integral part of their everyday lives and the world around them, that it defines the shape of magic), and that they can interact with it - all to a degree a Catholic priest would consider sacrilegious if it the deity were God.

Shamans believe in a unique relation between the individual and the higher power, a bond which empowers them and to a certain extent molds not only their beliefs but also their worldview. In Native American, Asian and African shamanism, the shaman is singled out from the tribe by the Totem or deity not because he is born gifted but because he is chosen/touched by the (relevant) Power. Even in Druidry and pre-Christian European shamanism, the druid/shaman is directly empowered by a god/totemic power becoming an earthly avatar for the elemental forces of nature. In SR this manifests in several ways from the Totemic behavious modifiers and the Shamanic Mask through to the "unproven" shamanic belief that Totems/Idols not only exist but can be interacted with.

There's far more to it than that, since the spiritual complications and ramifications on the Catholic side are even more complex. However, all this makes fitting the shaman into the rigid and dogmatic Catholic paradigm a complicated square-peg-in-round-hole exercise. Don't get me wrong, it can be done... as long as you have a sledgehammer handy.

As usual anyone is absolutely free to go with what they prefer and suits the style of their game, I'm just being nitpicky and trying to stick to plausibility.
toturi
QUOTE (Synner @ Sep 27 2004, 09:34 PM)
Shamans believe that the higher power they are linked to is not only the original source of their Gift, but that it is an integral part of their everyday lives and the world around them, that it defines the shape of magic), and that they can interact with it - all to a degree a Catholic priest would consider sacrilegious if it the deity were God.

Shamans believe in a unique relation between the individual and the higher power, a bond which empowers them and to a certain extent molds not only their beliefs but also their worldview. In Native American, Asian and African shamanism, the shaman is singled out from the tribe by the Totem or deity not because he is born gifted but because he is chosen/touched by the (relevant) Power. Even in Druidry and pre-Christian European shamanism, the druid/shaman is directly empowered by a god/totemic power becoming an earthly avatar for the elemental forces of nature. In SR this manifests in several ways from the Totemic behavious modifiers and the Shamanic Mask through to the "unproven" shamanic belief that Totems/Idols not only exist but can be interacted with.
you have a sledgehammer handy.

As usual anyone is absolutely free to go with what they prefer and suits the style of their game, I'm just being nitpicky and trying to stick to plausibility.

What you are describing is the Shamanic Tradition as viewed by Shamanic religions. What if Totems are viewed merely as personified virtues that the shaman identifies closely with and most suited for?

Hermetic tradition is deductive, while shamanic tradition is intuitive. It is very much like the difference between art and science.
Synner
QUOTE (toturi @ Sep 27 2004, 01:46 PM)
What you are describing is the Shamanic Tradition as viewed by Shamanic religions.

What I've described is the way Totems and Idols have been addressed in canon examples and fiction since the Grimoires included the "Path of the Shaman" piece.

Please note that as presented in MitS and Awakenings, characters don't even really follow abstract Idols such as Sky Father, Great Mother, Horned Man or Wise Warrior (those are just abstracts/game terms), in "reality" characters believe they follow Zeus, the Goddess, Cerunnos or Wotan/Odin - either as deities or as avatars/representations of animistic (super)natural forces.

QUOTE
What if Totems are viewed merely as personified virtues that the shaman identifies closely with and most suited for?

Though I understand where you're coming from, I have yet to see a case of this in Shadowrun. So far canon has treated shamanism and idol followers (with the possible exception of some urban shamans) under traditional definitions (albeit a simplified version) as reinforced for instance by the shamanic mask effect, the behavioural modifiers of such totems as Eagle, Wolf and Shark, and the various encounters with Totems in the fiction. There isn't one detailed example that I can think of an abstract totem/idol. In this case couldn't the magic user ultimately be a mage from a tradition with a strong ethical and moral code - such as a Orthodox Jewish qabbalist?

What you are describing is closer to what you find in Templar theurgy in Threats 2, where the Archangel patrons embody specific focuses and dominions for hermetic mages (something which is also evident in RL hermeticism by the way). This is also how I would suggest using the various Cults of the Saints for Catholic mages and theurgists.

QUOTE
Hermetic tradition is deductive, while shamanic tradition is intuitive. It is very much like the difference between art and science.

Anyone who's looked into RL Hermeticism knows that is a gross oversimplification if not an outright mistake. Though the deductive element and rigid development structures are integral to Hermetic paradigm, so is intuitive advancement and artistic-like self-expression. In SR this has been covered too, quoting from 2nd Ed Grimoire (p.15), "Like all great artists, great mages bring something of themselves to their work adding a bit of flair or a touch of style[...]" and "The mage is the artist, and the components, spells, spirits and rituals are the instruments of his art." (when its available also check out the Vanguardists in SOTA64)

Again, mileage will vary, so this is just my opinion. SOTA64 should shed some light on several of these issues.
Da9iel
I always considered a Shaman being able to fit in with the church by considering his or her totem to be a servant of the most high God. Of course the character I had in mind was struggling to find his place in a protestant church, but I would think it is possible for such a shaman to find a place to serve in the Catholic Church. A Catholic would already know that God made higher beings like the various orders of angels. His or her totem could be identified as one of these higher beings, much higher in the order of things than mere humans, but under God. Since a Christian believes that God made absolutely everything, adding totems to that list is no problem. Yes you're right in that the Church would have some serious issues with where exactly a shaman's allegiance lies, but I don't think it is impossible or even unlikely for shamans to be active within the Catholic Church.
Synner
As I said in my first post there really shouldn't be much problem in a member of the Evangelical Protestant Church being a shaman (in fact there are canon references to Awakened televangelists and pastors), and likewise for one of the Orthodox Christian sects (for entirely different reasons). However both the Catholic Faith and most of the Reform Protestants (Lutherans, Anglicans, etc) have serious dogmatic issues about the divine intervention the hierarchy of their cosmology and the interaction between the various levels of that cosmology.

Yes, the Church believes in higher order beings such as angels, archangels and dominions but interaction with an angel is seen as a miracle and a sign of Sainthood and as such impossible to a simple priest (or Pope for that matter) or leyman. For instance, there's the problem that magic is objectively verificable, meaning that while a shaman priest could call forth an angel to smite his foes, an atheistic forensic mage that came in later would be able to detect the use of magic and the conjuring of a spirit. Neither of which the Church believes to be inherently divine (note - the Templars know they're calling forth elemental spirits not angels even though they give them the appearance of such).

Without getting too deeply into the matter and trying to avoid the pitfalls of oversimplification, this is the main reason why the Catholic Church and "[...]most major Christian Churches followed Rome's lead" have to draw a line between magic and miracle.

If there wasn't a distinction between magic abilities which "are not, by nature, evil. Rather like any other human ability, they may be used for good or evil ends" and the divine, then there is no temporal division between a secular magician's abilities and a Saint, and sooner or later the whole edifice the Christian Faith is built on is brought into doubt and begins to crumble. Not only are Saintly divine abilities brought into question, but inevitably the nature of Christ's own divinity too. Neither is something the Church would allow - in other times people have been burned for less.

This doesn't even begin to touch upon the problems raised by the issues such as the nature of spirits (which is why Conjuring is banned without special Papal dispensation), the cosmology of the metaplanes (which actually validates many counter-Catholic Gnostic views), the animistic pagan powers represented by Totems and the fact that magic works equally well if you're a pious Catholic Sylvestrine mage and if you're a Odin-worshipping pagan gode (and you can't even get away with the argument that the gode is being duped by Satan to practice black magic because of the Imago Dei enycyclical quote I used above).

(Disclaimer - Though it may seem I'm being a bit retentive on this issue, I am in fact simply presenting the arguments and grounding that comes from quite a bit of research. For anyone following this discussion I'd just like to reiterate that you're free to do what you like in your games, change or modify any aspect of the setting that you disagree with.
toturi
Unfortunately your argument is invalidated by SR Canon(not to be confused with religious canon).

The following quotes are taken from Threats 2 p108.

QUOTE
The conjuration of angels are much more involved.


QUOTE
These angels are believed to be sent by the patron Archangel to aid his servents,..


QUOTE
Those few Templars skilled and pious enough to invoke a Great Form angel are blessed with the appearance of what is believed to be one of the personal servitors of the patron Archangel.


The ability to summon angels(specifcally elemental spirits since only elementals are mentioned IC) is a mark of piety. Given this mindset, I very much doubt there is any, if at all, religious/dogmatic implactions to summoning nature spirits(as long as they appear as angels). Hell(no pun intended biggrin.gif), Ally spirts could be viewed as guardian angels.
Da9iel
Synner: I do acknowledge your disclaimer. I enjoy reasoned debate.

In my previous post, I implied that a shaman may identify his totem as an angelic being. Though this is what I wrote, it was not what I was thinking. Angel--meaning messenger--is a direct dispatch from God. Could a shaman identify his totem as a superior being (not angel), accept the gift of magic from that being, and subject himself to his totem without believing that the totem is God or directly represents God? I'm thinking the situation parallels a vassal swearing allegiance to his lord. In this situation, the vassal would be a good Catholic, as would the lord. In medieval times, kings' and lords' authority was believed by the (Catholic) Church to be given by God, but the kings and lords did not represent God. (Thus vassals weren't heretics for swearing fealty.) In this way a shaman could interact with his totem in a traditional way but understand that there is a higher power above them both. An evil or even merely non-Catholic shaman would be assumed to follow a totem that was rebelling against God or "not walking in the fullness of truth." (This last is a phrase my good Catholic friend uses for protestants.) This totem would be denying God in much the same way that a person might.

The reason I'm fighting so hard for the Catholic Church allowing (though probably not encouraging) shamanism is the problem of conversion. The way you state it, a convert would have to chose between the God given gift of magic (not miraculous but as God gives all abilities) and the God who gave it. As the Church does not view magic as inherently evil, I can't see why they'd force a convert to Catholicism to deny a gift which can be used so powerfully to serve God.

If the Catholic Church is to retain credibility, they will have to acknowledge the existence of totems. If they define them as angels and demons, there are many problems which you have well defined. If they define them as "other" I don't see why being a shaman would be necessarily heretical.

[EDIT]toturi: nice quotes. I don't have Threats 2. Looks like I should get it.[/EDIT]
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Synner)
(and you can't even get away with the argument that the gode is being duped by Satan to practice black magic because of the Imago Dei enycyclical quote I used above).

The quote above in no way invalidates that claim. After all, if the gode weren't being misled they'd come to the light and use their powers for Christ, would they not?

~J
Synner
QUOTE (toturi @ Sep 28 2004, 08:41 AM)
Unfortunately your argument is invalidated by SR Canon(not to be confused with religious canon).
The following quotes are taken from Threats 2 p108.
QUOTE
The conjuration of angels are much more involved.

QUOTE
These angels are believed to be sent by the patron Archangel to aid his servents,..

QUOTE
Those few Templars skilled and pious enough to invoke a Great Form angel are blessed with the appearance of what is believed to be one of the personal servitors of the patron Archangel.


The ability to summon angels(specifcally elemental spirits since only elementals are mentioned IC) is a mark of piety.

Given this mindset, I very much doubt there is any, if at all, religious/dogmatic implactions to summoning nature spirits(as long as they appear as angels). Hell (no pun intended biggrin.gif), Ally spirts could be viewed as guardian angels.

torturi - You missed the rather telling quote which immediately proceeded those quotes and gives them context (emphasis mine):

QUOTE
The Order's view of hermetic magic is slightly different than the norm. It is effectively its own school of magic*, incorporating Christian traditions from a variety of sources, some dating back to the first century. [...] Though the Templars are aware the magic they perform is not miraculous, it is a God-given ability, and so the casting of spells always begins with an admission of "Per Christum Dominum nostrum", roughly translated as "through Christ our Lord".

* Referred to in canon as Theurgy (Grimoires, Germany, MitS).

The IC reference to this being a Hermetic "school of magic" clearly indicates the Templars are aware it is a form of hermetic magic and further along even makes a comparison with "standard hermetics". This is again referred in passing in the Game Info (p.109) actually specifying "Magical characters of all hermetic types fit fairly easily into one of the Patronages [...]".

The whole issue of invocation of angels vs. spirits is why I clearly stated that I hadn't addressed the ramifications of the issue of the nature of spirits. To the normal clergy and to the Conservative hierarchy the Templar's approach would be extremely controversial bordering the heretical (and very probably why the Templars remain secretive even within the Church and the Sylvestrine Order).

If anything the Sylvestrine's association with the Druids in TNO and their links to diverse congregations and Catholic-magic users the world over (ie. they run magic schools for the underprivileged in GeMiTo and elsewhere) indicates they are far more tolerant of diversity in practice and magic styles (possibly even beliefs) than the Catholic zealots of the New Templar Order.

In fact after some research I came to the conclusion that the most likely reason for naming them the Order of St. Sylvester is a reference to a small but influential RL Benedictine sub-order known as the Sylvestrines, that prospered in Ireland and Wales (amongst other places) in the Middle Ages and made inroads into the communities by taking a less confrontational approach to local beliefs than the continental Church and incorporating a number of local traditions into the locally practiced liturgy.

Note I'm not saying there aren't shamans in the Catholic Church just that they don't fit in well, face numerous doctrinal issues and are the rare exception rather than the rule. For instance under Christian Magic, MitS does indicate that (emphasis mine) "Most theurgists follow strict hermetic practices and belong to distinct hermetic schools" and that "some liberal and 'revivalist' theologies produce shamanistic magicians, and certain Catholics may treat various patron saints as idols [...]" (though in the light of Threats 2 the later could mean hermetics too).

The whole way shamans perform magic almost intuitively is counter to the Christian view in SR, ie. "Catholic and other Christian theologies cearefuly regulate the use of magic according to the tenet of their faith" and "Conjuring, in particular, is rigorously scrutinized lest the faithful be led into sin through such practices" (which in the case of the RCC demands Papal dispensation for priests to perform).
Synner
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Sep 28 2004, 09:38 AM)
QUOTE (Synner @ Sep 28 2004, 02:57 AM)
(and you can't even get away with the argument that the gode is being duped by Satan to practice black magic because of the Imago Dei enycyclical quote I used above).

The quote above in no way invalidates that claim. After all, if the gode weren't being misled they'd come to the light and use their powers for Christ, would they not?

There is a subtle but significant difference between mistakenly using a (neutral) God-given gift in the name of a "false idol" or for evil - which makes it a moral, cultural or social choice but ultimately a human one - and being able to tap Divine power and use it for the same ends is just impossible since according to Catholic doctrine isn't even possible since Divine power is inherently Good and can't be used in this way. So the gode above would always be following a "false god" but doing so in error or out of false belief, however despite this "misuse" his Gift still works (and has objectively quantifiable effects) and under Imago Dei it is not inherently evil (which Satanic black magic would be).

The problem with Totems and Idols is that while you might get away with incorporating some of them into Catholic cosmology as some form of higher spirits, others are simply impossible to integrate without significantly revising Catholic doctrine (namely many of the animistic and pagan Idols).

I agree with where you're coming from regarding the conversion issue. I do believe it's a problem the Church would face (though given its track record I doubt it would review its position in the short time since the Awakening). On the other hand I would suggest that those (exceptional) Catholic magicians that are shamans/Idol followers (mentioned in MitS, see my post above) would include most of the converts, and as traditionally in the modern RCC converts have a tendency to gravitate towards the various Cults of the Saints (which are Church approved), these would probably be found amongst the local dedicated Diocesian clergy and in Rules/Orders serving in places like Lourdes and Fatima, rather than among the stricter Templar and Sylvestrine hierarchies where they would face integration problems.
toturi
QUOTE (Synner @ Sep 28 2004, 10:23 PM)

torturi -  You missed the rather telling quote which immediately proceeded those quotes and gives them context (emphasis mine):

QUOTE
The Order's view of hermetic magic is slightly different than the norm. It is effectively its own school of magic*, incorporating Christian traditions from a variety of sources, some dating back to the first century. [...] Though the Templars are aware the magic they perform is not miraculous, it is a God-given ability, and so the casting of spells always begins with an admission of "Per Christum Dominum nostrum", roughly translated as "through Christ our Lord".

* Referred to in canon as Theurgy (Grimoires, Germany, MitS).

Yet there is no SR Canon game mechanic that prohibits shamans from joining up, roleplaying difficulties aside.

If there were, then it would have been reflected in the Strictures of that magical group, but there are not. While what you pointed out are the RP aspects and difficulties of such a character, there is nothing game mechanics-wise that prohibits such a PC. Also, there is the all-encompassing "Papal dispensation", as long as God's Own Johnson on Earth says it is okay, it is okay.
Synner
QUOTE (toturi @ Sep 28 2004, 03:07 PM)
Yet there is no SR Canon game mechanic that prohibits shamans from joining up, roleplaying difficulties aside.

If there were, then it would have been reflected in the Strictures of that magical group, but there are not. While what you pointed out are the RP aspects and difficulties of such a character, there is nothing game mechanics-wise that prohibits such a PC. Also, there is the all-encompassing "Papal dispensation", as long as God's Own Johnson on Earth says it is okay, it is okay.

Very true, hence my disclaimers and the fact that I've suggest what I believe are "plausible" ways of integrating shamans into the Church despite the bias. If I haven't been clear, what I've been commenting on is almost exclusively in the province of "fluff" and the potential RP dificulties of a reasonably grounded portrayal of the RCC and its magicians (which is what should be expected at least from canon in a setting like SR) - way too many black and white portrayals of the Church were what got me to writing it up the way I did for SoE.

I hope the posts prove informative and come in useful in understanding why magic in the RCC has been portrayed the way it has in recent (and upcoming) books, but even if these had been quotes of hard and fast rules, individual gamers and GMs should always tweak and change anything they feel doesn't reflect their own understanding of the setting.

And yeah, "Papal Infallibility" is a good thing to have on your side, it makes things like even the wierdest "special dispensations" plausible...
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