Revenge and the Shadows - Dumpshock Forums

Revenge and the Shadows

mfb View Member Profile	Nov 22 2007, 04:49 PM Post #26
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	i don't like these discussions because they invariably divide along terms like "always" and "never". nothing's ever "always" or "never", especially in high-risk trades like shadowrunning. if they were, then it wouldn't be risky. in general, corps aren't going to hunt shadowrunners down. that doesn't, by any stretch of the imagination, mean it won't happen, that it's something runners don't have to worry about. if it only happens 10% of the time that means that any runner with a desire to keep breathing had better be watching over his shoulder, because--in addition to all the other factors that make his life exciting--he's got one corp breathing down his neck for every ten runs he's partaken in.

HappyDaze

Nov 22 2007, 04:53 PM

Post #27

Shooting Target

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QUOTE

Well yeah ubiquitous cameras and recording units is a major difference between old school SR and the new one, but remember that everyone who has a commlink also has a wireless signal that is detectable by an ok scan program. Thus you can pretty much narrow down who can see you and who can't. Still runners will be masked or disguised most of the time anyway.

It's not just them sending the signal out real time that's the problem, it's the memory (more on this later). Are you really going to take the time to hack EVERYONE's commlinks that were anywhere near the run? Only if you accept that Agent Smith is a viable approach.

QUOTE

Additionally the ones actually seeing you must spend time turning on cameras and whatnot. Most will only have the default camera on their commlink, while security-minded people usually have cameras on their glasses etc. all the time.

Nope. Memory is infinite in SR. Everyone will typically record every second of every day simply becasue they can. It's much easier to go back and just hit delete than it is to worry about missing something. This even applies to non-security minded people. You have the effect of having a photographic memory at no extra cost.

QUOTE

I'm not sure thermal ID can be seen clearly through ski masks and other masks. In any case you can go asking people "have to seen this thermal ID?" Even Trolls could have difficulty doing that. I have my doubts about the others too, and in any case they are difficult to track by.

You don't ask people anything - you feed the image into all those face recognition cameras you have at all of your facilites and on the commlinks of your security people, bounty hunters, and cops (and even citizen's watch groups). Sooner or later the net will catch you.

Oh yeah, or you can just handwave it away. After all, this is SR where stupid things (like the NAN, the whole LA thing, Atzlan's attack on San Diego, and much more) are just accepted and no one looks too closely at anything.

MaxHunter View Member Profile	Nov 22 2007, 06:20 PM Post #28
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 10-September 05 From: Montevideo, in the elusive shadows of Latin America Member No.: 7,727	Funny this thread has come up, it kinda addresses a "situation" I am having in one of my games... I would like you to deduce from your corporate revenge theories down to this particular case. What would the corps do? [ Spoiler ] The runners performed a run for Ares Macrotechnology. In said run, they travelled to the icy North to recover a fallen Yamatetsu comet probe. (yes, we were playing during the YotC and this was the "Catch a Falling Star" run from the Wake of the Comet book) They got the probe, wiped a corp recovery team and then gave the mcguffin to their Johnson, who hadn't said which corp he was working for. The runners eventually found that out. The group since developed a fine relationship with said Johnson (loy 3) and he even suggested hiring the team for his corp on a semipermanent basis. The runners declined. After the run, the pissed Yamatetsu corp started "probing" around to recover their gadget. They assigned a black ops/sec mage with the task of finding the culprits and recover the gadget and the data it contained. It took him a couple months of investigation, but when he was about to call it keeps, a lucky strike lead to him discovering the handles of the runners and right after the contact information of their fixer. The corp sec team led by this mage set up a meet with the fixer and caught him, and right after they got hold of the runners too. Now a couple of the runners, their fixer and a fellow runner friend are all lying naked in a cell in some Yamatetsu safehouse near Seattle, waiting to be tortu... mmm. interrogated until they spill which corp has the probe, who was their johnson, etc, etc.. Just before being captured one of the runners managed to format his own commlink and send an agent to their Ares Johnson with a message. Now, what would the two corps involved do? Yamatetsu: a-get the intel from the runners and then shoot them in the face? (cheap solution) b-bribe the runners for the info and then release them? (not so likely IMO) c-torture them until they talk, cortex bomb the runners and then send them to retrieve the probe and wipe out the data? (hey, they have a very good street rep, after all, maybe the corp is into recycling runners) d-come to an arrangement with the runners and then stage their escape in order to use them as a link to the Ares Macrotech liaison...? e-any other option? Ares: -send a hitmen group to troubleshoot everyone dead and quiet? -sigh deeply, increase security on the probe and wipe out clean their Seattle operation? -Organize a search and rescue team to save the runners and prevent leakage? -do nothing? -any ideas? of the original probe run group (5 runners) only two were captured, the mage retired his character after that run and stayed in the Big White North, one of the two orcs died in a previous run and the fifth member is a rigger NPC who is aware of what happened but hasn't got the stats to do much. He could play some of his friends in Wuxing but it would be costly. Besides, I am not sure what would the corp do with the "innocent" runners, they really didn't have time to sort them out while catching them so they might as well use that opportunity... So again, what would the corps do? Have you got any other ideas? What would you do as a GM to make the game interesting and keep credibility?

kzt View Member Profile	Nov 22 2007, 06:55 PM Post #29
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234	Well, Ares knows they are grabbed. For Ares to rescue them OR kill them they have to find them. If it's important to Ares to not have the details leak, they will take steps to find them. If they don't care at this point they might or might not. After all, the runners will OWE them, and that might be useful. And it's possible the data leak came from the Ares side, which would be good to know. So, if it's important Ares has lots of ability to gather information. Much more than a group of runner hackers do. I'd assume that they have permanent backdoors into grideguide, traffic cameras, the commlink networks, etc. Plus access to real-time high res sat imagery, etc. So if they know or can find out where the grab went down they are likely to be able to get video of the area (possibly of the grab) and get a track started. But if the Yamatetsu guys are pros them might be able to cover their tracks enough. If Ares can actually find where they are Ares could simply obliterate the building if they want everyone involved dead and it won't cause too much secondary damage to citizens. Or they have a KE firewatch team roll in if they want them rescued. If a tactical team can drone infiltrate and gets tactical surprise they win. It's really hard to stop them when the first warning is the wall and doors blowing in and the team in Milspec running through shooting. Similarly, if they can manage to infiltrate the AC system with neurostun... They could also get Lone Star to do the rescue if they want to avoid the somewhat obvious KE - Ares linkage. If the Yamatetsu guys are dead I kind of doubt Yamatetsu is going to admit that their guys carried out the kidnapping when the news pictures of the "terrorist torture hideout" hit the papers.

Kyoto Kid View Member Profile	Nov 22 2007, 07:24 PM Post #30
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490	...well, I was on that run (3e though) [ Spoiler ] Our team pretty much hosed it out of the gate as none of us had decent social skills to deal with the back to earthers. My characters were a decker and an ex cosmonaut sammy/doctor. Not very good ambassadors for a bunch of "luddite" elves who turned their backs on modern ways and tech. The other characters were a sammy and a Hermetic mage. That being said, Yamatetsu got the probe & we were left high & dry in Edmonton to find our own way back. Now had we succeeded most likely or #B or possibly #C (Yametetsu scenario) would have occurred had we been tracked down. The GM liked playing the heavy powers off against each other with the runners caught in the middle having to choose sides (I've also been through Survival of the Fittest where we all lost our primary characters to Hestaby and I sent two characters into retirement rather than have them become additional pawns in a dragons' chess game). As we were in 3e, my decker wouldn't have been able to pull the trick the one runner on your team did as Yametetsu would have confiscated her cyberdeck. Since nobody would have been make contact to Ares, not sure what they would have done a funny/sad note, later my decker actually did get the cortex bomb, however courtesy of Ares on another mission.

MaxHunter View Member Profile	Nov 23 2007, 03:37 AM Post #31
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 10-September 05 From: Montevideo, in the elusive shadows of Latin America Member No.: 7,727	did you see kyoto kid? irony wins most of the time. :smile: [ Spoiler ] Glad to here you have played that run. I liked the setting a lot. This (captured) group of runners counts a Sioux Indian among them, and he was responsible for things not getting out of hand. There even was a great deal of roleplaying and IC discussion on that run. On a side note, that group's mage, a russian conjurer, liked the luddites so much he later decided to retire and moved with that tribe. That dwarf said it reminded him of Siberia... all that clean, fresh air... Now I am playing on saturday... I am not quite convinced with the Ares Ex Machina angle, but I might keep it under my sleeve as a possible resort if things get boring.... Cheers, Max

MaxHunter View Member Profile	Nov 23 2007, 03:55 AM Post #32
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 10-September 05 From: Montevideo, in the elusive shadows of Latin America Member No.: 7,727	BTW, the lone star take and the "terrorist torture hideout" ideas are very nice, thxs kzt. Cheers, Max

CircuitBoyBlue View Member Profile	Nov 23 2007, 04:16 PM Post #33
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215	If I were a big corporation that had the resources, I would try to hunt shadowrunners down every time. For one thing, given that these are professional criminals, odds are at least some of them are going to just totally disappear, and there will be nothing I can do about it. So right from the start, a certain percentage of people that pull off runs against me are probably going to get away. But 100% of the runners I don't track down are going to get away. So to even keep tabs on some of them, I've got to go after everyone I can. I'd have two reasons to do it. First, because if word gets out that I don't follow up on things like that, runners are going to be loads more willing to run against my assets than against those of, say, the corporation that's rumored to use trespassers as bio-experiments or blood magic sacrifices. And if runners are more willing to hit me, that means they won't be charging as much, because they don't need the hazard pay. If they're not charging as much, my competition is going to be much quicker to ditch "legitimate" business tactics in favor of commissioning a shadowrun. So in terms of protecting myself from future runs, I need to really, horribly screw at least some of the runners that hit me. Second, I want to find out who's behind any runs against me. So it's in my best interest to track down every team that runs against me, and determine whether I want to a) punish them, or b) let them go, but keep them under surveillance, so I can see who they talk to. You can totally screw a running group over by wasting their fixer, but that wouldn't really be the point. The point would be that by wasting the fixer, you can eliminate an asset of the corporation that hit you. You can do that without even knowing who the real enemy is that went to the fixer, or you can lay off the fixer, and start keeping him under surveillance. Having fixers under surveillance can give you a heads up when future runs are initiated against you. Of course, having this sort of intelligence network takes a lot of resources. They're worth it if you have those resources, but not everyone does. So what you'll see a lot is probably smaller companies that don't have the time and manpower to keep tabs on runners that long will probably resort to a quick and dirty execution quicker. This is bad news for runners, as it means they'll probably have to put up with a lot of punishment squads, but it's good news in that those punishment squads will probably only be sent by organizations that aren't powerful enough to follow them to their fixer.

Ravor View Member Profile	Nov 23 2007, 04:49 PM Post #34
Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361	I disagree, by going after every team that hit you you are simply throwing good money after bad, not to mention annoucing to people who have their ears to the ground that you were just hit. No, I say that you'd be better off by spending that money on increased security and performing your bio-experiments on the Runners that you do capture. Or frag, just get people to believe that you do terrible things to Runners and their families when they hit you and you get the same results with a few examples. After all do you really believe that the manager for that local Aztech facility has ever ordered a captured Runner's heart to be cut out? I very much doubt it, but I sure as hell wouldn't chance it because Big A does have a rep of making an occasional example of a Runner Team.

Sion_Smee View Member Profile	Nov 23 2007, 05:49 PM Post #35
Target Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 11-December 05 Member No.: 8,060	Also you must remember that the corp has to keep a certain ammount of good shadow reputation other wise when you need "deniable assests" no one will work for you if they find out your behind it which, lets face it, almost every runner team will do every time. Even the Azzies rep isn't as bad as any corps rep that tried to do this would be. This does assume that runners are essential for Shadowrun to work (else you got no game so there's no point discussing this any further).

kzt View Member Profile	Nov 23 2007, 07:35 PM Post #36
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234	You have an alternate game. For example, AAA corp policy (not announced, obviously) is that they will hunt down all people who "trespass against them" and will only use internally deniable assets (special ops teams) if a deniable team is used. Like the USG with sterile teams without ID crossing the border during the cold war. And like them, they are used very rarely for that mission as the penalty can be really high. Group works for AAA corp as the team. Mostly does security work, like chasing thugs down who have the nerve to break into their warehouses or rob their delivery trucks. Or they can work for organized crime,etc. You just don't have people working for giant companies hiring random people off the street to go blow up their competitors plants. Which is pretty objectively silly, as it's not exactly hard to end up hiring an FBI team from a fixer they have by the balls.

Kyoto Kid

Nov 23 2007, 08:14 PM

Post #37

Bushido Cowgirl

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QUOTE (MaxHunter)

did you see kyoto kid? irony wins most of the time. :smile:

[ Spoiler ]

Now I am playing on saturday... I am not quite convinced with the Ares Ex Machina angle, but I might keep it under my sleeve as a possible resort if things get boring....

Cheers,

Max

...even though we lost, I still liked the mission. As I tell my current group, the runners aren't guaranteed to win all the time & have used this as an example.

[ Spoiler ]

Spike View Member Profile	Nov 23 2007, 08:34 PM Post #38
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 941 Joined: 25-January 07 Member No.: 10,765	I hate to point this out, KK, but by the standards of most primative tribal peoples, at 17 you would be considered an adult. Don't let the artificially extended childhood of the decadent West confuse you. This goes double if they had any Orks or Trolls living among them, at 17 an ork is probably a respected family man or a hopeless wastrel, not a child....

CircuitBoyBlue

Nov 23 2007, 09:07 PM

Post #39

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Sion_Smee)

Also you must remember that the corp has to keep a certain ammount of good shadow reputation other wise when you need "deniable assests" no one will work for you if they find out your behind it which, lets face it, almost every runner team will do every time.

Even the Azzies rep isn't as bad as any corps rep that tried to do this would be.

In your game, maybe. In all the SR groups I've ever been a part of, I've never heard a player say "No, I don't want to take your money; you come down to hard on people that work for your competition." I HAVE heard them say "I don't want to break in that place; if I get caught they'll feed me to their strange gods," and I'm always hearing "Are you crazy? I know what those people do to shadowrunners that they catch; if you really want me to do this, you're gonna need to give me more money."

And I'm not saying EVERY corporation is going to chase down EVERY shadowrunner they can. Obviously, some runners are going to be too professional to leave leads to follow up on. What I'm saying is that the real payoff for following these things up, for the corp, isn't revenge; it's intel on the runner community. Whether or not the runners have to deal with crazy corporate assassins is going to depend on if the corp has enough money to hold off on deploying the assassins until they can find a bigger fish (and obviously, if they don't have money for assassins in the first place, they won't send them, but who cares about anybody that doesn't have money for assassins?).

MaxHunter View Member Profile	Nov 23 2007, 09:12 PM Post #40
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 10-September 05 From: Montevideo, in the elusive shadows of Latin America Member No.: 7,727	well.. I wasn' the Gm on KK's game, but, in order not to break suspension of disbelief, that particular tribe was made up mostly of western decadents who took up a back to earth ideology rather than "real" tribespeople. Heck, there was even a dwarven sociologist among them! Cheers, Max

Kyoto Kid View Member Profile	Nov 23 2007, 10:18 PM Post #41
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490	...and a lot of them were elves as I remember. :grinbig:

MaxHunter View Member Profile	Nov 26 2007, 11:07 AM Post #42
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 10-September 05 From: Montevideo, in the elusive shadows of Latin America Member No.: 7,727	Well, for those interested in the outcome of the "situation" presented above, the runners tried to escape from captivity in a dashing run for freedom... and failed miserably. They were beaten unconscious and forcefully extracted of most relevant information -but they did not spill the beans on other runners and contacts, save for their Ares Johnson- Eventually, when the proverbial shot in the face / river dump was looming in the horizon, they managed to negotiate an "out" or sorts. After all, they are known as a proficient, resilient and resourceful team, so they got 72 hours to shadowrun Ares, delete the stolen data and return the missing probe - or the data within- to its rightful owners. They slowly degrading carcerands+ roaming in their systems are just the corps idea of a good incentive to comply. Results: Yamatetsu got what they wanted (the info) and maybe they even get what they really wanted (undoing Ares probe foil) If the runners fail, well, it is as if they had shot them in the face firstly. Kind of a win-win situation. Shadowrunners out there, remember to keep a big ace in the hole just in case you ever get caught. Ares, in the meantime, has taken the increase local security/delete all traces of operation "falling star" route. Of course they do not dream of taking a hit in Ares Plaza or Cabo Cañaveral, or wherever the data is hidden.... BTW, any ideas for the Ares run are welcome.... Cheers, Max

kzt View Member Profile	Nov 26 2007, 06:03 PM Post #43
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234	Well, unless Ares uses the patented SR "we only employ the mentally retarded to run our critical systems" you can't get "all copies" of anything once it's on the network overnight. It ends up in multiple replicated data centers and stored off-line and off-site in hardened archive sites. How many gigantic worldwide disasters have destroyed all on-line computer data in SR? And I kind of suspect that Ares might be kind of interested in their story, since they know that they were grabbed.

Spike View Member Profile	Nov 26 2007, 06:30 PM Post #44
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 941 Joined: 25-January 07 Member No.: 10,765	And, if you emphasize the Punk aspects: No self respecting Shadowrunner is ever going to let the 'gun to the head' of decaying carcerands ever force their hands. They'll be shadowclinic/expiremental magic/surgery/fucked up drugs to keep going once they pop a la Crank/whatever they have to... to stick it to The Man, in this case Yamatetsu. Most Runners are in the shadows because they don't want to be told what they MUST do... which is what Yamatetsu is doing to them in this case. Unless you ain't runnin' that sort of game. Of course, if the current group is feeling a bit stale, a 'Run under the Clock' to REALLLY stick it to those corp bastards who already killed them is a wizbang way to end the current campaign...

MaxHunter View Member Profile	Nov 26 2007, 06:31 PM Post #45
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 10-September 05 From: Montevideo, in the elusive shadows of Latin America Member No.: 7,727	exactly, I am thinking on the line of Yamatetsu guys giving them a virus to erase the data. And I guess you mean the Ares people would be sending some guys after them... Cheers, Max

MaxHunter View Member Profile	Nov 26 2007, 08:48 PM Post #46
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 10-September 05 From: Montevideo, in the elusive shadows of Latin America Member No.: 7,727	@spike; they sure didn't like the news, but I think they are going to jump through this ring. I also know they will try to get help, but considering that analyzing the nanobots is a Nanotech Engineering (12, 1 day) test and they have 72 hours plus no access to any motivated nanotech engineer it might be a little too risky to gamble all their nuyen to that one card. Besides, now that you mention Crank... [ Spoiler ] ... well, it didn't end up well for Mr Statham's char. If they wanted to go in a blaze while spitting the face of The Man, welll, they could have done that when they tried to escape prison. -they considered it, that's for sure- I think the love for their own -pretty much fucked up- skins won at the end of the day. Cheers, Max

Spike

Nov 26 2007, 08:50 PM

Post #47

Moving Target

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QUOTE (MaxHunter)

@spike; they sure didn't like the news, but I think they are going to jump through this ring. I also know they will try to get help, but considering that analyzing the nanobots is a Nanotech Engineering (12, 1 day) test and they have 72 hours plus no access to any motivated nanotech engineer it might be a little too risky to gamble all their nuyen to that one card. Besides, now that you mention Crank...

[ Spoiler ]

If they wanted to go in a blaze while spitting the face of The Man, welll, they could have done that when they tried to escape prison. -they considered it, that's for sure- I think the love for their own -pretty much fucked up- skins won at the end of the day.

Cheers,

Max

Carcerands are hardly new tech, appearing as they did back in Shadowtech during what I recall was still 1st ed game... possibly 2nd ed.

Just sayin'... :D

What your players do is their biz, natch. I just toss out the options. Plenty of good punk tales involve selling out and dealing with the consequences too....

Dashifen View Member Profile	Nov 26 2007, 09:09 PM Post #48
Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374	So here's a question: when a corp/syndicate/powerful-dude/etc wants to get revenge due to the actions of the players, what's appropriate? Clearly, many groups of various sizes have the somewhat limitless capacity for violence and pain, but sniper rounds from a kilometer away with a called shot to by pass armor to gank the entire team, while not necessarily inappropriate, isn't really fair. I've often tried to set up a revenge situation between the players and a powerful group that they've pissed off, but it usually ends up being pretty dumb. How do you all set these things up? Do the PCs get any hints? If so, how?

Spike

Nov 26 2007, 09:44 PM

Post #49

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Dashifen)

So here's a question: when a corp/syndicate/powerful-dude/etc wants to get revenge due to the actions of the players, what's appropriate? Clearly, many groups of various sizes have the somewhat limitless capacity for violence and pain, but sniper rounds from a kilometer away with a called shot to by pass armor to gank the entire team, while not necessarily inappropriate, isn't really fair.

I've often tried to set up a revenge situation between the players and a powerful group that they've pissed off, but it usually ends up being pretty dumb. How do you all set these things up? Do the PCs get any hints? If so, how?

Assuming it is addressed to me:

First, work under the assumption that it is an individual within the larger group, not the corp itself. Crime families work under a different assumption, revenge on behalf of the group is status quo for them, as do gangs, though within limits. Gangs generally don't seek retribution against Cops, as the cops are capable of escalating more than another gang could, for example.

Then too, consider the paranoia level any group of shadowrunners operates under. The revenging party must therefor do legwork, which is how word of the incoming hellstorm gets back to the party. The 'run' then becomes outrunning/outfoxing the guy trying to get them. The sniper from a klick away should only occur if they ignore the warnings their contacts give them, or do something incredibly boneheaded that sets themselves up for the shot. Extreme snipers take time and preperation.

In other words, its a reverse run, and play it as such. Payoff is survival, and the johnson is them...

kzt View Member Profile	Nov 26 2007, 10:17 PM Post #50
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234	If they players spray paint their street names on the wall in front of the cameras without masks it's a lot easier to find them than if they don't leave any clues. It takes a lot more research and question asking to find the latter team. The blatant guys just get an ambush meet set up with little warning, as someone just says they want to hire X.

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