Lets say Ares, big bad gun corporation that they are, get's hit by a bunch of Shadowrunners working for Fuchi (or whomever) who steal a prototype wizbang, which then will show up on the market under Fuchi's brand name.
Some traditions of play have the shadowrunners ducking and hiding for all they are worth until the heat blows over and Ares forgets about them, or at least forgets for the moment. Some Traditions also hold that Ares is gonna launch retalitory runs agains Fuchi in some sort of low intensity Shadow War. I mention this because these themes crop up again and again in fiction about the setting.
Revenge generates no profits, only losses.
Lets say our intrepid Runners have just busted out of an Ares facility with the prototype in tow. Sure Ares is gonna send goon squads after the prototype. They'll keep trying to recover it from the runners all the way up to the point where the runners hand it over to the Johnson. After that? They focus on the Johnson, then on the Fuchi facility where it's being reverse engineered... all the way until they realize that getting it back is costing more, and less likely to net them profit. That is how corporations think. They aren't going to risk assets ( goons) in a firefight with runners who don't have anything.
Sure: Sgt Goon, the leader of the Goonsquad might want to test his boys against some candyass Runners. Sure, Executive Meatpuppet, in charge of R&D, is upset that his toy got lost. But more likely than not, each of them values his job more than he values the hollow thrill of kicking at rats. Meatpuppet is probably more interested in damage control than revenge anyway. I mean, he just lost the billion nuyen widget after all.
Likewise, Ares isn't going to put Fuchi on a 'hit list'. Sure, they'll keep it in mind for next time, but revenge? Hurting Fuchi doesn't help the bottom line. Not by itself. No, they'll only hurt Fuchi if they can make some money from the deal. Steal a prototype project from THEM, or blow up the factory that produces the new Wizbang so their wizbang hits the market first.
There is only one measure of success in business, the almighty bottom line.
Full Version: Revenge and the Shadows
...this seems kind of an offshoot of the Corp War thread.
I agree. I mentioned in the other thread that unless it is "cost effective" to pull a job against the competitor (as you say steal one of their prototypes or disrupt production to get yours out first) full blown retaliation, especially on the AAA level hurts everyone including the consumer. Now with regards to small - mid size companies not "affiliated" with a Mega, that could be different.
I agree. I mentioned in the other thread that unless it is "cost effective" to pull a job against the competitor (as you say steal one of their prototypes or disrupt production to get yours out first) full blown retaliation, especially on the AAA level hurts everyone including the consumer. Now with regards to small - mid size companies not "affiliated" with a Mega, that could be different.
Unless Ares has sources inside Fuchi, the only link they have is the runners. So they will keep after them. They want the Johnson and the Johnson's employer. Which the runners or the fixer (which the runners can lead to) can give them. Nobody else can. So they won't stop chasing the runners until they get a better target.
So low profile crimes that don't summon security and don't leave a trail of evidence is the way to go. If they don't have any clues, they can't chase you. Say you did the job for 15K. If you cost a company a hundred million bucks and they know you name, can they justify spending a million going after you? Sure they can.
Ares would like to get the Johnson. Oh, they really, really would. But it works almost as well if they have you publicly exterminated as a deterrent to the next group of sinless street scum that are going to attack them.
Would you go after a team of runners for 100K per, when the file included pictures, addresses, aliases and contact? Why wouldn't all your loyalty 1 contacts try to collect?
So low profile crimes that don't summon security and don't leave a trail of evidence is the way to go. If they don't have any clues, they can't chase you. Say you did the job for 15K. If you cost a company a hundred million bucks and they know you name, can they justify spending a million going after you? Sure they can.
Ares would like to get the Johnson. Oh, they really, really would. But it works almost as well if they have you publicly exterminated as a deterrent to the next group of sinless street scum that are going to attack them.
Would you go after a team of runners for 100K per, when the file included pictures, addresses, aliases and contact? Why wouldn't all your loyalty 1 contacts try to collect?
Pretty much. The only caveats I would place on that is that a corporation's reputation is a commodity which has value, and that a corporation maintains its status not just through market penetration but also through market share. This means that if a corporation fears that it has been made to "look weak" it is generally willing to lash out and victimize someone in order to "look strong" and salvage their reputation. It also means that a corporation is willing to take a loss now in order to freeze a competitor out of the market. Standard Oil would slash prices to below cost in order to out compete a rival coming into their area - and they were not wrong to do that.
So if Corporation A hires shadowrunners to take the new lipstick formula from Corp B and sabotage the production facilities, then Corp B might very well send ninjas to go mess up the shadowrunners or the new lipstick factory of Corp A. But it would never be a guaranteed thing. Indeed, since the Shadowrunners are deniable assets and probably don't know who they are working for the security chiefs of Corp B would more than likely be willing to have a drink with the shadowrunners in a neutral location for pure socialization (although if they attempted to get the runners to divulge the security weaknesses of their own facility I would not be shocked).
Indeed, while Corp B would love to get their product back, would love to take back the market share, and would love for Corp A to just stop existing altogether, the fact remains that as long as Corp A and Corp B are both making lipstick, they have a lot of interests in common. They want the raw materials of such products to be as cheap as possible. They want to encourage cultural trends which involve wearing more lipstick (both in amount and in variety). They want to keep wages and import tariffs down. Blah blah blah. So while they compete in the narrow world of lipstick design, in the wider context they are natural allies on virtually every point. Heck, they'd probably be willing to go halvies to stop a new lipstick firm from getting their product into StufferShacks.
Once the run is over, your target and your employer are no longer your enemy or your ally. They are just rational actors in a very complex game. And while they very well might decide to try to kill you to satisfy some other objective, there's no reason a priori to assume that they wouldn't just shrug and move on.
-Frank
So if Corporation A hires shadowrunners to take the new lipstick formula from Corp B and sabotage the production facilities, then Corp B might very well send ninjas to go mess up the shadowrunners or the new lipstick factory of Corp A. But it would never be a guaranteed thing. Indeed, since the Shadowrunners are deniable assets and probably don't know who they are working for the security chiefs of Corp B would more than likely be willing to have a drink with the shadowrunners in a neutral location for pure socialization (although if they attempted to get the runners to divulge the security weaknesses of their own facility I would not be shocked).
Indeed, while Corp B would love to get their product back, would love to take back the market share, and would love for Corp A to just stop existing altogether, the fact remains that as long as Corp A and Corp B are both making lipstick, they have a lot of interests in common. They want the raw materials of such products to be as cheap as possible. They want to encourage cultural trends which involve wearing more lipstick (both in amount and in variety). They want to keep wages and import tariffs down. Blah blah blah. So while they compete in the narrow world of lipstick design, in the wider context they are natural allies on virtually every point. Heck, they'd probably be willing to go halvies to stop a new lipstick firm from getting their product into StufferShacks.
Once the run is over, your target and your employer are no longer your enemy or your ally. They are just rational actors in a very complex game. And while they very well might decide to try to kill you to satisfy some other objective, there's no reason a priori to assume that they wouldn't just shrug and move on.
-Frank
| QUOTE (kzt) |
| Why wouldn't all your loyalty 1 contacts try to collect? |
...which is why my characters never have any loyalty 1 contacts and at least one at loyalty 4 - 5.
| QUOTE (kzt) |
| Unless Ares has sources inside Fuchi, the only link they have is the runners. So they will keep after them. They want the Johnson and the Johnson's employer. Which the runners or the fixer (which the runners can lead to) can give them. Nobody else can. So they won't stop chasing the runners until they get a better target. So low profile crimes that don't summon security and don't leave a trail of evidence is the way to go. If they don't have any clues, they can't chase you. Say you did the job for 15K. If you cost a company a hundred million bucks and they know you name, can they justify spending a million going after you? Sure they can. Ares would like to get the Johnson. Oh, they really, really would. But it works almost as well if they have you publicly exterminated as a deterrent to the next group of sinless street scum that are going to attack them. Would you go after a team of runners for 100K per, when the file included pictures, addresses, aliases and contact? Why wouldn't all your loyalty 1 contacts try to collect? |
You think Ares DOESN'T have sources in Fuchi? And vice versa? How then does Fuchi know to steal that prototype?
If the corp is going to toss another million into the pit, they'd at least like SOME possibility of return on the money. Throwing good money after bad gets you fired.
Like I said, once you've handed over the widget to the Johnson, your value to Ares is non-existant. What could you possibly tell them?
"We handed over the widget to the nice man in the suit in an empty park and left before he shot us with our money."?
The data trails are much easier to get to, though in Shadowrun this often doesn't look like the case.
If the Runners were a good source of intel on the Johnson, the Fixer is even better, and probably... at the end of the day, and easier target. Fixers are information brokers and deal makers, they WANT to be found, WANT to be talked to. Runners, on the other hand, are heavily armed paranoids who prefer to not exist at all. By definition.
But in all likelihood, Ares is gonna figure out who paid for the run pretty fast anyway. They probably have protocols in place for when to call off the dogs and just wait for existing intelligence assets to feed them more.
This leads to the flip side of the story: Runners should NEVER want to hold onto the 'paydata' or Widget du jour for longer than necessary. No matter how badly the Johnson screwed with them, holding it is just asking for pain.
See: If they still have it, then Ares AND Fuchi will be gunning for them. Not for the runners themselves, but for that widget that is worth 100mil or more. Johnson screws you on the run? Fine, call up your fixer and have him make a deal with Ares to get their toy back. If you don't get greedy, they'll take the deal without blinking and possibly pay you to explain how you compromised their security as part of the deal (thanks to Frank for pointing that one out...) Again, it's cost/benefit analysis time.
If it costs 1 million to buy back their 100 million widget, which keeps it out of Fuchi's hands, they'll pay, unless it would only cost them 100 thousand to kill you. On the other hand, if killing you risks loss of the widget or more than 1 million in assets (good bet...) then paying is more cost effective.
gotta factor in the cost of the hit team members that are likely to die on a run against those heavily armed paranoids you call Shadowrunners too, you know...
I agree that its all cost/benefit analysis, but sometimes cost/benefit analysis isn't as straight forward as it seems. The widget might be worth X amount of nuyen (either in R&D costs to develop, or in projected profits, money you've already spent or money you intend to make), but losing the widget might cost you more than just the widget. Corporations worry about "face" because in corporate terms, that's synonymous with money. A corporation's worth is measured by the fraction of a nuyen to the fraction of a second, the tiniest reduction in its share price can easily equal hundreds of millions of nuyen.
Plus, Ares has an incentive to punish anyone who steals from them. If every time you steal 1 million nuyen from Ares they hit back costing you 2 million, you're going to be less likely to steal from Ares in the future (or more likely to put the blame on someone else when you do it). Ares wants the cost/benefit analysis to work in its favor; if there's no disincentive for people to rob you, a lot of people are going to be robbing you.
I tend to stay away from megacorporate violence in my games. Ares and Fuchi (to pick two names out of a hat) like to play nice with one another and be able to say to the Corporate Court, "Hey look, we like each other," because everybody knows megacorporate war is bad for business. And then both megacorps have A and B level corporations who's whole job it is to rip the hell out of the other guy's A and B level corps. Those are the corporations that are hiring runners and hitting the other guys R&D installations, and when that starts to get out of hand Ares or Fuchi steps in and restores the peace.
Plus, Ares has an incentive to punish anyone who steals from them. If every time you steal 1 million nuyen from Ares they hit back costing you 2 million, you're going to be less likely to steal from Ares in the future (or more likely to put the blame on someone else when you do it). Ares wants the cost/benefit analysis to work in its favor; if there's no disincentive for people to rob you, a lot of people are going to be robbing you.
I tend to stay away from megacorporate violence in my games. Ares and Fuchi (to pick two names out of a hat) like to play nice with one another and be able to say to the Corporate Court, "Hey look, we like each other," because everybody knows megacorporate war is bad for business. And then both megacorps have A and B level corporations who's whole job it is to rip the hell out of the other guy's A and B level corps. Those are the corporations that are hiring runners and hitting the other guys R&D installations, and when that starts to get out of hand Ares or Fuchi steps in and restores the peace.
| QUOTE |
| On the other hand, if killing you risks loss of the widget |
The whole 'take the widget' run has always bugged me. Why wouldn't the corps have made VR models to test well before making a hard model? Why would they only make a single prototype, and with telepresence and communication being as good as they are, why would they do all of the testing from A-Z at the same location (R&D labs contianing the VR copies and testing sites for physical prototypes don't have to be anywhere near each other)?
Seems to me if the runners take the test widget the corp just writes it off and builds the next model - based on the VR models and complete with upgrades learned from testing the first widget. The stolen widget is certainly valuable to the corp that takes it, but it's not going to put them ahead of the original makers.
| QUOTE |
| If every time you steal 1 million nuyen from Ares they hit back costing you 2 million, you're going to be less likely to steal from Ares in the future |
No, the corporate court is going to censure Ares for overreacting. It's silly, but the tit-for-tat game is the foundation of SR. Otherwise, a corp steals from Ares and Ares resonds by destroying 50% of their assets with concentrated attacks against materials and personnell. An extreme case, but it would be the logical climax of that thinking.
| QUOTE (HappyDaze) | ||
The whole 'take the widget' run has always bugged me. Why wouldn't the corps have made VR models to test well before making a hard model? Why would they only make a single prototype, and with telepresence and communication being as good as they are, why would they do all of the testing from A-Z at the same location (R&D labs contianing the VR copies and testing sites for physical prototypes don't have to be anywhere near each other)? Seems to me if the runners take the test widget the corp just writes it off and builds the next model - based on the VR models and complete with upgrades learned from testing the first widget. The stolen widget is certainly valuable to the corp that takes it, but it's not going to put them ahead of the original makers. |
One can assume that the VR models and prototypes are not really 'one off' so much as they are ensuring that the prototype they must, eventually, make to prove it works, doesn't fall into the hands of the other guy.
Of course, they could be so paranoid that there really IS just the one widget...
These are questions for SR GM's to answer for their own games... I merely provide a light to shine into shadowy corners to see from altered perspectives.... or something
Several good points here, but I generally agree with the OP. If the game comes about revenge then the Runners are screwed after their first few jobs. Sooner or later they WILL leave clues to who's responsible, and if spent enough resources at they WILL get beaten.
Thus Corps writing off their losses instead of trying to scare off everyone from running against them not only makes sense, it makes the game playable.
Thus Corps writing off their losses instead of trying to scare off everyone from running against them not only makes sense, it makes the game playable.
| QUOTE (FriendoftheDork) |
| Thus Corps writing off their losses instead of trying to scare off everyone from running against them not only makes sense, it makes the game playable. |
Nah, it's very playable. You just play the ares hit squad....
| QUOTE (HappyDaze) |
| No, the corporate court is going to censure Ares for overreacting. |
Which is why I pointed out in the next paragraph that most of the conflict between megacorporations is done through subsidiaries. I didn't pick Ares and Fuchi as the examples.
However there is a great quote about this from The West Wing of all places, from an episode appropriately titled, "A Proportional Response". I'm a little bummed that imdb doesn't have it, because that means that I'll have to work from memory. Its kind of long, so I'll hide it in a
[ Spoiler ]
But my point remains, there has to be some kind of response, proportional or otherwise, to act as a disincentive to competitors. Not seeking revenge will end up being more costly, because it will encourage more competitors to target you.
Edited because I hit "Add Reply" instead of "Preview".
Edited again because of new posts: Technically, this is corp on corp revenge. Corp A can wipe out the runners but this is going to have little or no effect, unless they can wipe out so many runners no one will take a job against them. (Highly unlikely and not at all cost effective, although its the type of thing some crime families will go for). For Corp A to provide a disincentive to Corp B, they have to affect Corp B's bottom line. Wiping out deniable assets doesn't do anything. In fact, corp on corp revenge actually creates more work for runners.
There are a ton of fan sites with quotes from the West Wing, btw. From Wikiquote:
As for the second part, Leo's response is pretty important to the discussion as well.
[ Spoiler ]
As for the second part, Leo's response is pretty important to the discussion as well.
[ Spoiler ]
Thats an excellent resource, martindv, I didn't even think of wikiquote.
Leo does make a good case of the proportional response, which is sort of the whole point of the episode, but that just enforces my point. There has to be some sort of a response, proportional or otherwise. A disproportional response might draw the ire of the Corporate Court, but as Bartlett points out, the proportional response "is the cost of doing business. Its factored in."
Responses, proportional or otherwise, are vengeful. And the cost is factored in.
Leo does make a good case of the proportional response, which is sort of the whole point of the episode, but that just enforces my point. There has to be some sort of a response, proportional or otherwise. A disproportional response might draw the ire of the Corporate Court, but as Bartlett points out, the proportional response "is the cost of doing business. Its factored in."
Responses, proportional or otherwise, are vengeful. And the cost is factored in.
Yep.
Which is why none of the AAAs go crying to the Corporate Court over every little run, but instead save it for when (say) the head of one AAA manages to royally screw another over a barrel through some very high-level manipulations. Plus having an AI screw the corp at the same time as the trial is going on.
Which is why none of the AAAs go crying to the Corporate Court over every little run, but instead save it for when (say) the head of one AAA manages to royally screw another over a barrel through some very high-level manipulations. Plus having an AI screw the corp at the same time as the trial is going on.
I'm sure many of you are familiar with the concept already but "Tit for Tat" is a very optimized strategy for dealing with this situation. Basically, you try to cooperate and if you are betrayed you strike back exactly as hard and no harder. Check the article for why, but, mathematically, you can't really fair better than this. Remember that the mega corps, are vast composites of agents with there own self interest. Small chucks of a Mega Corp may well act irrationally, here you might see revenge. Say you your team does an extraction from an Azzy facility, gunning down much of the on site security. You may well have killed everyone that the Security chief of Tiajuana ever trusted. The team may well suffer the wrath of that individual /at/ Aztechnology. The recourses that NP could get leveled at the players is far from game ending, and still lets you have the human touch of emotional and dramatic events.
At the executive level though. I see the corps as being so huge they ALWAYS play the numbers. And the numbers say Tit for Tat. It's simply the mathematically superior strategy to run if you only care about maximizing your grains in a completive environment.
Wiki: Tit for Tat.
So yes. I see perfectly messaged responses at the Mega Corp level. I see metahuman/personal motivation at lower levels. I think this is playable, fits the fluff, and allows for lots of good story.
At the executive level though. I see the corps as being so huge they ALWAYS play the numbers. And the numbers say Tit for Tat. It's simply the mathematically superior strategy to run if you only care about maximizing your grains in a completive environment.
Wiki: Tit for Tat.
So yes. I see perfectly messaged responses at the Mega Corp level. I see metahuman/personal motivation at lower levels. I think this is playable, fits the fluff, and allows for lots of good story.
| QUOTE (WeaverMount) |
| Basically, you try to cooperate and if you are betrayed you strike back exactly as hard and no harder. |
That isn't what it actually says. And prisoner dilemma solutions are somewhat limited in scope of applicability. If you are not in a zero-sum game, and if you are running a large corporation you better not have fallen into the fallacy that you are playing a zero-sum game, it isn't terribly applicable.
Besides, striking back as hard as you got hit and no harder is far from easy. People tend to overemphasize the damage they have taken and minimize what they do to others, it has to do with basic things like whether you can feel it or not, the way your senses are rigged, etc. Thus, rational behaviour is not necessarily the norm, even in large scale organizations. Eventually, somewhere up the line of command there is a human taking decisions, with all the aforementioned "problems".
Cheers,
Max
Cheers,
Max
This is what I meant when I said that its all cost/benefit analysis, but that cost/benefit analysis is not as straight forward as it seems. In the case of the Mysterious Stolen Widget, you're not just out the money spent to develop it (actual money) and the profits you stand to make (projected money), it also makes you appear vulnerable. This can not only affect your share price (acutal money), it can also make you a target for future runs (projected losses).
There is money in vengeance, whether its a proportional response or not. I'd say how hard you were hit has less to do with how hard you hit back, and much more to do with the negative consequences hitting back entails. Ideally, you want to hit back exactly as hard as you can without getting cracked down upon by the powers that be (whether those are the governments, the AAA's, or the Corporate Court, depending on how big an arena you play in), or you want to hit back exactly as hard as you can so that your target has to suck it up and not escalate the conflict without getting cracked down upon themselves.
Whether a response is proportional or disproportional has less to do with the magnitude of the response and more about what people will accept. This is partially because going back and forth is almost always apples-and-oranges (rarely will the loss of a x-nuyen widget mean you get to hit back for x-nuyen in damages), and because everything is based around what people will accept.
There is money in vengeance, whether its a proportional response or not. I'd say how hard you were hit has less to do with how hard you hit back, and much more to do with the negative consequences hitting back entails. Ideally, you want to hit back exactly as hard as you can without getting cracked down upon by the powers that be (whether those are the governments, the AAA's, or the Corporate Court, depending on how big an arena you play in), or you want to hit back exactly as hard as you can so that your target has to suck it up and not escalate the conflict without getting cracked down upon themselves.
Whether a response is proportional or disproportional has less to do with the magnitude of the response and more about what people will accept. This is partially because going back and forth is almost always apples-and-oranges (rarely will the loss of a x-nuyen widget mean you get to hit back for x-nuyen in damages), and because everything is based around what people will accept.
The problem is that if you play it so that, once the hand-off is made, the Shadowrunners never have to worry about an angry megacorp coming down on them...you lose a lot of the game's tension.
Sure, most of the time a corp that just got some widget stolen is going to realize there's no profit in chasing down the half dozen street scum that pulled one over on them. They'll upgrade security instead, tell their boss they're on top of the situation, look at their old records and design notes for Widget X, and get to work on Widget XI. Oh well, the loss of a prototype is just part of the game, and they'll go on about their business.
But -- every once in a while, maybe it doesn't work that neatly. Maybe it was the last fuck up a middle-management type can put on his record, and he knows he's going to get fired in the next couple days so he writes a few last orders to send security after the Shadowrunners. Maybe it's the first time the building's new head of security has been crossed, and he's so ashamed by the black mark on his record he sets out to see to it the 'runners pay. Maybe they're just the unlucky every one-in-a-hundred Shadowrunner team to cross Ares, and Ares has a policy of "making an example" of one percent of the street scum that steal from them (to keep their rep as a bunch of hardasses).
Every once in a while, send a bunch of corporate goons after your players, if for no other reason than to remind them Shadowrunning isn't just a 9 to 5. You don't clock in at a Meet, clock out at a hand-off, and then live a normal, boring, safe, life in between "shifts." The job comes with more dangers than just what you run into while you're actively working.
If it were easy, anyone could do it. As it is, it takes a special kind of paranoid motherfucker to run the shadows.
Sure, most of the time a corp that just got some widget stolen is going to realize there's no profit in chasing down the half dozen street scum that pulled one over on them. They'll upgrade security instead, tell their boss they're on top of the situation, look at their old records and design notes for Widget X, and get to work on Widget XI. Oh well, the loss of a prototype is just part of the game, and they'll go on about their business.
But -- every once in a while, maybe it doesn't work that neatly. Maybe it was the last fuck up a middle-management type can put on his record, and he knows he's going to get fired in the next couple days so he writes a few last orders to send security after the Shadowrunners. Maybe it's the first time the building's new head of security has been crossed, and he's so ashamed by the black mark on his record he sets out to see to it the 'runners pay. Maybe they're just the unlucky every one-in-a-hundred Shadowrunner team to cross Ares, and Ares has a policy of "making an example" of one percent of the street scum that steal from them (to keep their rep as a bunch of hardasses).
Every once in a while, send a bunch of corporate goons after your players, if for no other reason than to remind them Shadowrunning isn't just a 9 to 5. You don't clock in at a Meet, clock out at a hand-off, and then live a normal, boring, safe, life in between "shifts." The job comes with more dangers than just what you run into while you're actively working.
If it were easy, anyone could do it. As it is, it takes a special kind of paranoid motherfucker to run the shadows.
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| The problem is that if you play it so that, once the hand-off is made, the Shadowrunners never have to worry about an angry megacorp coming down on them...you lose a lot of the game's tension. Sure, most of the time a corp that just got some widget stolen is going to realize there's no profit in chasing down the half dozen street scum that pulled one over on them. They'll upgrade security instead, tell their boss they're on top of the situation, look at their old records and design notes for Widget X, and get to work on Widget XI. Oh well, the loss of a prototype is just part of the game, and they'll go on about their business. But -- every once in a while, maybe it doesn't work that neatly. Maybe it was the last fuck up a middle-management type can put on his record, and he knows he's going to get fired in the next couple days so he writes a few last orders to send security after the Shadowrunners. Maybe it's the first time the building's new head of security has been crossed, and he's so ashamed by the black mark on his record he sets out to see to it the 'runners pay. Maybe they're just the unlucky every one-in-a-hundred Shadowrunner team to cross Ares, and Ares has a policy of "making an example" of one percent of the street scum that steal from them (to keep their rep as a bunch of hardasses). Every once in a while, send a bunch of corporate goons after your players, if for no other reason than to remind them Shadowrunning isn't just a 9 to 5. You don't clock in at a Meet, clock out at a hand-off, and then live a normal, boring, safe, life in between "shifts." The job comes with more dangers than just what you run into while you're actively working. If it were easy, anyone could do it. As it is, it takes a special kind of paranoid motherfucker to run the shadows. |
Well although I agree this is definitely possible, the real problem is that if the middle-management really has the power to send out security for such work (which is unlikely in the first place), then he will probably lose his job as the security is shot to pieces, that is IF he has any chance of tracking down the runners at all.
Those in power to order out special ops team (the only ones with a real chance against the runners unless you can use a platoon), is either to high up to know not to do it or it is game over. Really, a team can never deal with a senior management that wants to do them in, unless they don't leave enough clues to track them. And if the they don't this whole dilemma is moot.
Besides this is pretty hard to adjucate for the GM also. Most good teams are masked/disguised when executing the run, use gloves (or are SINless), remove traces of tampering in the system, and use untracable ammunition and disposable gear. Any witnesses are likely to either not get any good ID, or ID is almost useless because they are SINless. They only thing they can do then is to compare the faces (if they have footage, something good runners shouldn't leave in the first place) with Lone Star's or their own facial recognision databases, and they may not even be able to do the former. Besides most businesses exposed to industrial sabotage or espionage will rather try to cover it up than report it to Lone Star which hasn't jurisdiction on their property anyway. This even happens today, when extraterritoriality is not a problem.
So what you're left with is the corp hiring bounty hunters, paying off known Fixers and Johnsons in the biz, and trying to find out who MAY have done the job. And here is the tricky part, which Johnsons and Fixxers actually know the runners, know that they are responsible for the job, and wants to sell out? Not many. And in the metroplex just think how hard it is to find the RIGHT SINless people.
BTW this actually happened in Queen Euphoria module (1st ed), as the attacked corp negotiated with the attacker which sold out the Fixer they hired, who again ratted out the runners (probably under torture/threat of death).
But usually, unless your Johnson screws with you, the target corp can't retalitate against you unless you screw up. And if you screw up sufficiently, it's time to burn Edge or make new characters.
| QUOTE |
| Any witnesses are likely to either not get any good ID, or ID is almost useless because they are SINless. They only thing they can do then is to compare the faces (if they have footage, something good runners shouldn't leave in the first place) with Lone Star's or their own facial recognision databases, and they may not even be able to do the former. |
With almost every witness having a commlink and just about every commlink having audio and video recording, this may be more difficult that you believe. Also don't forget voice-masks - your voiceprints can be recorded and used to screw you too. Also remember that basic masks (skimasks or something similar) don't necessarily break up your face's thermal image, and thermographic is both cheap and readily available. Ultrasound provides even more opportunities to foil your disguise for serious security needs, and pheromone detectors can be pretty specific and used to ID you too.
| QUOTE (HappyDaze) | ||
With almost every witness having a commlink and just about every commlink having audio and video recording, this may be more difficult that you believe. Also don't forget voice-masks - your voiceprints can be recorded and used to screw you too. Also remember that basic masks (skimasks or something similar) don't necessarily break up your face's thermal image, and thermographic is both cheap and readily available. Ultrasound provides even more opportunities to foil your disguise for serious security needs, and pheromone detectors can be pretty specific and used to ID you too. This will always be an escalating war, and if the corps start IDing people based on thermal imaging, then runners will start wearing masks designed to throw that off. That can't be too hard. |
Well yeah ubiquitous cameras and recording units is a major difference between old school SR and the new one, but remember that everyone who has a commlink also has a wireless signal that is detectable by an ok scan program. Thus you can pretty much narrow down who can see you and who can't. Still runners will be masked or disguised most of the time anyway.
Additionally the ones actually seeing you must spend time turning on cameras and whatnot. Most will only have the default camera on their commlink, while security-minded people usually have cameras on their glasses etc. all the time. I'm not sure thermal ID can be seen clearly through ski masks and other masks. In any case you can go asking people "have to seen this thermal ID?" Even Trolls could have difficulty doing that. I have my doubts about the others too, and in any case they are difficult to track by.
If someone stabbed your sister, would you go back, get a shotgun, and put a hole in his knife?
-Frank
-Frank
i don't like these discussions because they invariably divide along terms like "always" and "never". nothing's ever "always" or "never", especially in high-risk trades like shadowrunning. if they were, then it wouldn't be risky.
in general, corps aren't going to hunt shadowrunners down. that doesn't, by any stretch of the imagination, mean it won't happen, that it's something runners don't have to worry about. if it only happens 10% of the time that means that any runner with a desire to keep breathing had better be watching over his shoulder, because--in addition to all the other factors that make his life exciting--he's got one corp breathing down his neck for every ten runs he's partaken in.
in general, corps aren't going to hunt shadowrunners down. that doesn't, by any stretch of the imagination, mean it won't happen, that it's something runners don't have to worry about. if it only happens 10% of the time that means that any runner with a desire to keep breathing had better be watching over his shoulder, because--in addition to all the other factors that make his life exciting--he's got one corp breathing down his neck for every ten runs he's partaken in.
| QUOTE |
| Well yeah ubiquitous cameras and recording units is a major difference between old school SR and the new one, but remember that everyone who has a commlink also has a wireless signal that is detectable by an ok scan program. Thus you can pretty much narrow down who can see you and who can't. Still runners will be masked or disguised most of the time anyway. |
It's not just them sending the signal out real time that's the problem, it's the memory (more on this later). Are you really going to take the time to hack EVERYONE's commlinks that were anywhere near the run? Only if you accept that Agent Smith is a viable approach.
| QUOTE |
| Additionally the ones actually seeing you must spend time turning on cameras and whatnot. Most will only have the default camera on their commlink, while security-minded people usually have cameras on their glasses etc. all the time. |
Nope. Memory is infinite in SR. Everyone will typically record every second of every day simply becasue they can. It's much easier to go back and just hit delete than it is to worry about missing something. This even applies to non-security minded people. You have the effect of having a photographic memory at no extra cost.
| QUOTE |
| I'm not sure thermal ID can be seen clearly through ski masks and other masks. In any case you can go asking people "have to seen this thermal ID?" Even Trolls could have difficulty doing that. I have my doubts about the others too, and in any case they are difficult to track by. |
You don't ask people anything - you feed the image into all those face recognition cameras you have at all of your facilites and on the commlinks of your security people, bounty hunters, and cops (and even citizen's watch groups). Sooner or later the net will catch you.
Oh yeah, or you can just handwave it away. After all, this is SR where stupid things (like the NAN, the whole LA thing, Atzlan's attack on San Diego, and much more) are just accepted and no one looks too closely at anything.
Funny this thread has come up, it kinda addresses a "situation" I am having in one of my games... I would like you to deduce from your corporate revenge theories down to this particular case. What would the corps do?
So again, what would the corps do? Have you got any other ideas? What would you do as a GM to make the game interesting and keep credibility?
[ Spoiler ]
So again, what would the corps do? Have you got any other ideas? What would you do as a GM to make the game interesting and keep credibility?
Well, Ares knows they are grabbed.
For Ares to rescue them OR kill them they have to find them.
If it's important to Ares to not have the details leak, they will take steps to find them. If they don't care at this point they might or might not. After all, the runners will OWE them, and that might be useful. And it's possible the data leak came from the Ares side, which would be good to know.
So, if it's important Ares has lots of ability to gather information. Much more than a group of runner hackers do. I'd assume that they have permanent backdoors into grideguide, traffic cameras, the commlink networks, etc. Plus access to real-time high res sat imagery, etc. So if they know or can find out where the grab went down they are likely to be able to get video of the area (possibly of the grab) and get a track started. But if the Yamatetsu guys are pros them might be able to cover their tracks enough.
If Ares can actually find where they are Ares could simply obliterate the building if they want everyone involved dead and it won't cause too much secondary damage to citizens.
Or they have a KE firewatch team roll in if they want them rescued. If a tactical team can drone infiltrate and gets tactical surprise they win. It's really hard to stop them when the first warning is the wall and doors blowing in and the team in Milspec running through shooting. Similarly, if they can manage to infiltrate the AC system with neurostun...
They could also get Lone Star to do the rescue if they want to avoid the somewhat obvious KE - Ares linkage. If the Yamatetsu guys are dead I kind of doubt Yamatetsu is going to admit that their guys carried out the kidnapping when the news pictures of the "terrorist torture hideout" hit the papers.
For Ares to rescue them OR kill them they have to find them.
If it's important to Ares to not have the details leak, they will take steps to find them. If they don't care at this point they might or might not. After all, the runners will OWE them, and that might be useful. And it's possible the data leak came from the Ares side, which would be good to know.
So, if it's important Ares has lots of ability to gather information. Much more than a group of runner hackers do. I'd assume that they have permanent backdoors into grideguide, traffic cameras, the commlink networks, etc. Plus access to real-time high res sat imagery, etc. So if they know or can find out where the grab went down they are likely to be able to get video of the area (possibly of the grab) and get a track started. But if the Yamatetsu guys are pros them might be able to cover their tracks enough.
If Ares can actually find where they are Ares could simply obliterate the building if they want everyone involved dead and it won't cause too much secondary damage to citizens.
Or they have a KE firewatch team roll in if they want them rescued. If a tactical team can drone infiltrate and gets tactical surprise they win. It's really hard to stop them when the first warning is the wall and doors blowing in and the team in Milspec running through shooting. Similarly, if they can manage to infiltrate the AC system with neurostun...
They could also get Lone Star to do the rescue if they want to avoid the somewhat obvious KE - Ares linkage. If the Yamatetsu guys are dead I kind of doubt Yamatetsu is going to admit that their guys carried out the kidnapping when the news pictures of the "terrorist torture hideout" hit the papers.
...well, I was on that run (3e though)
[ Spoiler ]
did you see kyoto kid? irony wins most of the time. 
Now I am playing on saturday... I am not quite convinced with the Ares Ex Machina angle, but I might keep it under my sleeve as a possible resort if things get boring....
Cheers,
Max
[ Spoiler ]
Now I am playing on saturday... I am not quite convinced with the Ares Ex Machina angle, but I might keep it under my sleeve as a possible resort if things get boring....
Cheers,
Max
BTW, the lone star take and the "terrorist torture hideout" ideas are very nice, thxs kzt.
Cheers,
Max
Cheers,
Max
If I were a big corporation that had the resources, I would try to hunt shadowrunners down every time. For one thing, given that these are professional criminals, odds are at least some of them are going to just totally disappear, and there will be nothing I can do about it. So right from the start, a certain percentage of people that pull off runs against me are probably going to get away. But 100% of the runners I don't track down are going to get away. So to even keep tabs on some of them, I've got to go after everyone I can.
I'd have two reasons to do it. First, because if word gets out that I don't follow up on things like that, runners are going to be loads more willing to run against my assets than against those of, say, the corporation that's rumored to use trespassers as bio-experiments or blood magic sacrifices. And if runners are more willing to hit me, that means they won't be charging as much, because they don't need the hazard pay. If they're not charging as much, my competition is going to be much quicker to ditch "legitimate" business tactics in favor of commissioning a shadowrun. So in terms of protecting myself from future runs, I need to really, horribly screw at least some of the runners that hit me. Second, I want to find out who's behind any runs against me. So it's in my best interest to track down every team that runs against me, and determine whether I want to a) punish them, or b) let them go, but keep them under surveillance, so I can see who they talk to. You can totally screw a running group over by wasting their fixer, but that wouldn't really be the point. The point would be that by wasting the fixer, you can eliminate an asset of the corporation that hit you. You can do that without even knowing who the real enemy is that went to the fixer, or you can lay off the fixer, and start keeping him under surveillance. Having fixers under surveillance can give you a heads up when future runs are initiated against you.
Of course, having this sort of intelligence network takes a lot of resources. They're worth it if you have those resources, but not everyone does. So what you'll see a lot is probably smaller companies that don't have the time and manpower to keep tabs on runners that long will probably resort to a quick and dirty execution quicker. This is bad news for runners, as it means they'll probably have to put up with a lot of punishment squads, but it's good news in that those punishment squads will probably only be sent by organizations that aren't powerful enough to follow them to their fixer.
I'd have two reasons to do it. First, because if word gets out that I don't follow up on things like that, runners are going to be loads more willing to run against my assets than against those of, say, the corporation that's rumored to use trespassers as bio-experiments or blood magic sacrifices. And if runners are more willing to hit me, that means they won't be charging as much, because they don't need the hazard pay. If they're not charging as much, my competition is going to be much quicker to ditch "legitimate" business tactics in favor of commissioning a shadowrun. So in terms of protecting myself from future runs, I need to really, horribly screw at least some of the runners that hit me. Second, I want to find out who's behind any runs against me. So it's in my best interest to track down every team that runs against me, and determine whether I want to a) punish them, or b) let them go, but keep them under surveillance, so I can see who they talk to. You can totally screw a running group over by wasting their fixer, but that wouldn't really be the point. The point would be that by wasting the fixer, you can eliminate an asset of the corporation that hit you. You can do that without even knowing who the real enemy is that went to the fixer, or you can lay off the fixer, and start keeping him under surveillance. Having fixers under surveillance can give you a heads up when future runs are initiated against you.
Of course, having this sort of intelligence network takes a lot of resources. They're worth it if you have those resources, but not everyone does. So what you'll see a lot is probably smaller companies that don't have the time and manpower to keep tabs on runners that long will probably resort to a quick and dirty execution quicker. This is bad news for runners, as it means they'll probably have to put up with a lot of punishment squads, but it's good news in that those punishment squads will probably only be sent by organizations that aren't powerful enough to follow them to their fixer.
I disagree, by going after every team that hit you you are simply throwing good money after bad, not to mention annoucing to people who have their ears to the ground that you were just hit.
No, I say that you'd be better off by spending that money on increased security and performing your bio-experiments on the Runners that you do capture. Or frag, just get people to believe that you do terrible things to Runners and their families when they hit you and you get the same results with a few examples. After all do you really believe that the manager for that local Aztech facility has ever ordered a captured Runner's heart to be cut out? I very much doubt it, but I sure as hell wouldn't chance it because Big A does have a rep of making an occasional example of a Runner Team.
No, I say that you'd be better off by spending that money on increased security and performing your bio-experiments on the Runners that you do capture. Or frag, just get people to believe that you do terrible things to Runners and their families when they hit you and you get the same results with a few examples. After all do you really believe that the manager for that local Aztech facility has ever ordered a captured Runner's heart to be cut out? I very much doubt it, but I sure as hell wouldn't chance it because Big A does have a rep of making an occasional example of a Runner Team.
Also you must remember that the corp has to keep a certain ammount of good shadow reputation other wise when you need "deniable assests" no one will work for you if they find out your behind it which, lets face it, almost every runner team will do every time.
Even the Azzies rep isn't as bad as any corps rep that tried to do this would be.
This does assume that runners are essential for Shadowrun to work (else you got no game so there's no point discussing this any further).
Even the Azzies rep isn't as bad as any corps rep that tried to do this would be.
This does assume that runners are essential for Shadowrun to work (else you got no game so there's no point discussing this any further).
You have an alternate game.
For example, AAA corp policy (not announced, obviously) is that they will hunt down all people who "trespass against them" and will only use internally deniable assets (special ops teams) if a deniable team is used. Like the USG with sterile teams without ID crossing the border during the cold war. And like them, they are used very rarely for that mission as the penalty can be really high.
Group works for AAA corp as the team. Mostly does security work, like chasing thugs down who have the nerve to break into their warehouses or rob their delivery trucks.
Or they can work for organized crime,etc.
You just don't have people working for giant companies hiring random people off the street to go blow up their competitors plants. Which is pretty objectively silly, as it's not exactly hard to end up hiring an FBI team from a fixer they have by the balls.
For example, AAA corp policy (not announced, obviously) is that they will hunt down all people who "trespass against them" and will only use internally deniable assets (special ops teams) if a deniable team is used. Like the USG with sterile teams without ID crossing the border during the cold war. And like them, they are used very rarely for that mission as the penalty can be really high.
Group works for AAA corp as the team. Mostly does security work, like chasing thugs down who have the nerve to break into their warehouses or rob their delivery trucks.
Or they can work for organized crime,etc.
You just don't have people working for giant companies hiring random people off the street to go blow up their competitors plants. Which is pretty objectively silly, as it's not exactly hard to end up hiring an FBI team from a fixer they have by the balls.
| QUOTE (MaxHunter) |
| did you see kyoto kid? irony wins most of the time. [ Spoiler ] Now I am playing on saturday... I am not quite convinced with the Ares Ex Machina angle, but I might keep it under my sleeve as a possible resort if things get boring.... Cheers, Max |
...even though we lost, I still liked the mission. As I tell my current group, the runners aren't guaranteed to win all the time & have used this as an example.
[ Spoiler ]
I hate to point this out, KK, but by the standards of most primative tribal peoples, at 17 you would be considered an adult. Don't let the artificially extended childhood of the decadent West confuse you.
This goes double if they had any Orks or Trolls living among them, at 17 an ork is probably a respected family man or a hopeless wastrel, not a child....
This goes double if they had any Orks or Trolls living among them, at 17 an ork is probably a respected family man or a hopeless wastrel, not a child....
| QUOTE (Sion_Smee) |
| Also you must remember that the corp has to keep a certain ammount of good shadow reputation other wise when you need "deniable assests" no one will work for you if they find out your behind it which, lets face it, almost every runner team will do every time. Even the Azzies rep isn't as bad as any corps rep that tried to do this would be. |
In your game, maybe. In all the SR groups I've ever been a part of, I've never heard a player say "No, I don't want to take your money; you come down to hard on people that work for your competition." I HAVE heard them say "I don't want to break in that place; if I get caught they'll feed me to their strange gods," and I'm always hearing "Are you crazy? I know what those people do to shadowrunners that they catch; if you really want me to do this, you're gonna need to give me more money."
And I'm not saying EVERY corporation is going to chase down EVERY shadowrunner they can. Obviously, some runners are going to be too professional to leave leads to follow up on. What I'm saying is that the real payoff for following these things up, for the corp, isn't revenge; it's intel on the runner community. Whether or not the runners have to deal with crazy corporate assassins is going to depend on if the corp has enough money to hold off on deploying the assassins until they can find a bigger fish (and obviously, if they don't have money for assassins in the first place, they won't send them, but who cares about anybody that doesn't have money for assassins?).
well.. I wasn' the Gm on KK's game, but, in order not to break suspension of disbelief, that particular tribe was made up mostly of western decadents who took up a back to earth ideology rather than "real" tribespeople. Heck, there was even a dwarven sociologist among them!
Cheers,
Max
Cheers,
Max
...and a lot of them were elves as I remember.
Well, for those interested in the outcome of the "situation" presented above, the runners tried to escape from captivity in a dashing run for freedom... and failed miserably. They were beaten unconscious and forcefully extracted of most relevant information -but they did not spill the beans on other runners and contacts, save for their Ares Johnson- Eventually, when the proverbial shot in the face / river dump was looming in the horizon, they managed to negotiate an "out" or sorts. After all, they are known as a proficient, resilient and resourceful team, so they got 72 hours to shadowrun Ares, delete the stolen data and return the missing probe - or the data within- to its rightful owners. They slowly degrading carcerands+ roaming in their systems are just the corps idea of a good incentive to comply.
Results: Yamatetsu got what they wanted (the info) and maybe they even get what they really wanted (undoing Ares probe foil) If the runners fail, well, it is as if they had shot them in the face firstly. Kind of a win-win situation. Shadowrunners out there, remember to keep a big ace in the hole just in case you ever get caught.
Ares, in the meantime, has taken the increase local security/delete all traces of operation "falling star" route. Of course they do not dream of taking a hit in Ares Plaza or Cabo Cañaveral, or wherever the data is hidden....
BTW, any ideas for the Ares run are welcome....
Cheers,
Max
Results: Yamatetsu got what they wanted (the info) and maybe they even get what they really wanted (undoing Ares probe foil) If the runners fail, well, it is as if they had shot them in the face firstly. Kind of a win-win situation. Shadowrunners out there, remember to keep a big ace in the hole just in case you ever get caught.
Ares, in the meantime, has taken the increase local security/delete all traces of operation "falling star" route. Of course they do not dream of taking a hit in Ares Plaza or Cabo Cañaveral, or wherever the data is hidden....
BTW, any ideas for the Ares run are welcome....
Cheers,
Max
Well, unless Ares uses the patented SR "we only employ the mentally retarded to run our critical systems" you can't get "all copies" of anything once it's on the network overnight. It ends up in multiple replicated data centers and stored off-line and off-site in hardened archive sites. How many gigantic worldwide disasters have destroyed all on-line computer data in SR?
And I kind of suspect that Ares might be kind of interested in their story, since they know that they were grabbed.
And I kind of suspect that Ares might be kind of interested in their story, since they know that they were grabbed.
And, if you emphasize the Punk aspects: No self respecting Shadowrunner is ever going to let the 'gun to the head' of decaying carcerands ever force their hands.
They'll be shadowclinic/expiremental magic/surgery/fucked up drugs to keep going once they pop a la Crank/whatever they have to...
to stick it to The Man, in this case Yamatetsu. Most Runners are in the shadows because they don't want to be told what they MUST do... which is what Yamatetsu is doing to them in this case.
Unless you ain't runnin' that sort of game. Of course, if the current group is feeling a bit stale, a 'Run under the Clock' to REALLLY stick it to those corp bastards who already killed them is a wizbang way to end the current campaign...
They'll be shadowclinic/expiremental magic/surgery/fucked up drugs to keep going once they pop a la Crank/whatever they have to...
to stick it to The Man, in this case Yamatetsu. Most Runners are in the shadows because they don't want to be told what they MUST do... which is what Yamatetsu is doing to them in this case.
Unless you ain't runnin' that sort of game. Of course, if the current group is feeling a bit stale, a 'Run under the Clock' to REALLLY stick it to those corp bastards who already killed them is a wizbang way to end the current campaign...
exactly, I am thinking on the line of Yamatetsu guys giving them a virus to erase the data.
And I guess you mean the Ares people would be sending some guys after them...
Cheers,
Max
And I guess you mean the Ares people would be sending some guys after them...
Cheers,
Max
@spike; they sure didn't like the news, but I think they are going to jump through this ring. I also know they will try to get help, but considering that analyzing the nanobots is a Nanotech Engineering (12, 1 day) test and they have 72 hours plus no access to any motivated nanotech engineer it might be a little too risky to gamble all their nuyen to that one card. Besides, now that you mention Crank...
If they wanted to go in a blaze while spitting the face of The Man, welll, they could have done that when they tried to escape prison. -they considered it, that's for sure- I think the love for their own -pretty much fucked up- skins won at the end of the day.
Cheers,
Max
[ Spoiler ]
If they wanted to go in a blaze while spitting the face of The Man, welll, they could have done that when they tried to escape prison. -they considered it, that's for sure- I think the love for their own -pretty much fucked up- skins won at the end of the day.
Cheers,
Max
| QUOTE (MaxHunter) |
| @spike; they sure didn't like the news, but I think they are going to jump through this ring. I also know they will try to get help, but considering that analyzing the nanobots is a Nanotech Engineering (12, 1 day) test and they have 72 hours plus no access to any motivated nanotech engineer it might be a little too risky to gamble all their nuyen to that one card. Besides, now that you mention Crank... [ Spoiler ] If they wanted to go in a blaze while spitting the face of The Man, welll, they could have done that when they tried to escape prison. -they considered it, that's for sure- I think the love for their own -pretty much fucked up- skins won at the end of the day. Cheers, Max |
Carcerands are hardly new tech, appearing as they did back in Shadowtech during what I recall was still 1st ed game... possibly 2nd ed.
Just sayin'...
What your players do is their biz, natch. I just toss out the options. Plenty of good punk tales involve selling out and dealing with the consequences too....
So here's a question: when a corp/syndicate/powerful-dude/etc wants to get revenge due to the actions of the players, what's appropriate? Clearly, many groups of various sizes have the somewhat limitless capacity for violence and pain, but sniper rounds from a kilometer away with a called shot to by pass armor to gank the entire team, while not necessarily inappropriate, isn't really fair.
I've often tried to set up a revenge situation between the players and a powerful group that they've pissed off, but it usually ends up being pretty dumb. How do you all set these things up? Do the PCs get any hints? If so, how?
I've often tried to set up a revenge situation between the players and a powerful group that they've pissed off, but it usually ends up being pretty dumb. How do you all set these things up? Do the PCs get any hints? If so, how?
| QUOTE (Dashifen) |
| So here's a question: when a corp/syndicate/powerful-dude/etc wants to get revenge due to the actions of the players, what's appropriate? Clearly, many groups of various sizes have the somewhat limitless capacity for violence and pain, but sniper rounds from a kilometer away with a called shot to by pass armor to gank the entire team, while not necessarily inappropriate, isn't really fair. I've often tried to set up a revenge situation between the players and a powerful group that they've pissed off, but it usually ends up being pretty dumb. How do you all set these things up? Do the PCs get any hints? If so, how? |
Assuming it is addressed to me:
First, work under the assumption that it is an individual within the larger group, not the corp itself. Crime families work under a different assumption, revenge on behalf of the group is status quo for them, as do gangs, though within limits. Gangs generally don't seek retribution against Cops, as the cops are capable of escalating more than another gang could, for example.
Then too, consider the paranoia level any group of shadowrunners operates under. The revenging party must therefor do legwork, which is how word of the incoming hellstorm gets back to the party. The 'run' then becomes outrunning/outfoxing the guy trying to get them. The sniper from a klick away should only occur if they ignore the warnings their contacts give them, or do something incredibly boneheaded that sets themselves up for the shot. Extreme snipers take time and preperation.
In other words, its a reverse run, and play it as such. Payoff is survival, and the johnson is them...
If they players spray paint their street names on the wall in front of the cameras without masks it's a lot easier to find them than if they don't leave any clues. It takes a lot more research and question asking to find the latter team.
The blatant guys just get an ambush meet set up with little warning, as someone just says they want to hire X.
The blatant guys just get an ambush meet set up with little warning, as someone just says they want to hire X.
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