 realism under fire |
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 Jun 19 2005, 02:27 AM
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#101
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Immoral Elf  Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486  |
R 2! :P |
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Jun 19 2005, 02:36 AM
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#102
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Then I recommend you check in with more gamers. Shadowrun is geared towards a 'standard' set of games. Games involving criminals in a cyberpunk world. You really can't deny it (at least not if you've read the rulebooks). The literature is all about criminals in a cyberpunk world. The rules all apply to criminals in a cyberpunk world. The history is written from the viewpoint of... Well, you get the idea. That's what the game is written to support. In fact, I daresay, that's the ONLY situation the game is really written to support (it can support other situations, but that wasn't its intent). The same can be said of WoD and D&D. I suppose you can't really say that of GURPS, but that's really an exception because it was made not to have a 'standard game'. I suspect you say that term doesn't exist to you not because you really don't understand it, but because you wish you were above that, having achieved gaming nirvana. As I said before, many of us (I daresay, the vast majority of the people who post here) have played the sort of situations you describe, or are familiar enough to know if they like it or not. You're simply not telling us anything new. I don't encourage my PCs to rape, but they find themselves in morally unclear situations. However, I still enforce the rules as written. Why? Because I enjoy it, and so do my players. I've run games (and soon will run again) a freeform game. Why? Because that's what my players want. They know the options, and they know what they like, so that's really all there is to it. It's not that they don't understand your gaming mecca, they simply don't see it as all that. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Jun 19 2005, 02:47 AM
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#103
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Guests |
No, not really. Hard is writing a convincing story of a PC literally walking away from his boyfriend forever. Porn--be it sexual or some other sort of fetishism (e.g., technological fetishism of any Tom Clancy novel)--is easy to write because there is no requirement (or in many cases, attempt) to delve beyond the superficial. Indeed, it's preferrable not to delve beyond the superficial for the author and reader. Critias is really good at writing both. I can't do descriptions very well. But the more I think about, the more your style seems to emphasize the fetishism over the substance. Just because you describe actions doesn't mean it's actually more substantive than when I describe actions after rolling the dice like the dice and rules-whore I am.
Yeah, that's it. Even your description of your kiddie campaign is lacking. It's so... WOD. The thing is, the rules and the stats and the dice play such an intrinsic role in the development of characters (remember, I'm the person who values game mechanics above all else. I think most of the SR setting sucks) that by ignoring the rules it's artificially distorting actual RPG character development. If you don't WIN, and by win I mean succeed in your PC's personal and professional objectives, and don't engage in activity to earn karma other than through storyteller fiat, you're hindering your character's developments. Diceless play is no good when you want to do something extraordinary and have to take a chance, or do occassionally fail in a task your PC should be capable in. You're sacrificing it all for the fetish of graphic descriptions of your characters' actions and angst without actually writing anything of substance.
Yes, quite a bit actually. Writing the actions is the same, it's all just superficial fetishism of guns, gore, or facile narrative. Actually putting substance to the actions, though, that can vary tremendously.
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Jun 19 2005, 03:42 AM
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#104
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Target Group: Members Posts: 50 Joined: 27-March 05 From: gothenburg, sweden Member No.: 7,243 |
I don't even understand what you're getting at here.
tell it straight instead that you have a such despice(?) towards the whole storytelling genre. Youre saying sthat stats is almost the only thing in character development. What about insight? What about empathy? what about remorse? To you character development is all about the stats, you're telling it straight. You're saying that that's the only thing that matters. numbers on a piece of paper. And that you can't earn Karma in discovering something new. It is so far from your reality that you can't even think out of the box. I don't think I said that diceless play is the only way to play. I don't think I even played a RPG where we didn't use dice, we just used it sparely. to 'us' (i mean our groups) it's not all about the action, it's not all about the doing all the 'cool' stuff. I don't need to know that my firearm's skill is 6. I need to know that I'm a crack shot and would probably pull off killing most people on this planet. What I don't understand is why everyone is so defenisive 'still'. I know I came off at the beginning. but it seems 'all' you guys feel attacked and are very uneasy that there is even people that want to play the way I want to play. Excuse me for saying so but I see similaries in homophobia. Just by knowing the guy beside you is homosexual makes yoy uneasy even though he wouldn't want to bang you anyway. It's very hard to keep a dialogue with defensive people |
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Jun 19 2005, 04:02 AM
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#105
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Yes, there you go. We're defensive because your earth-shattering revelations are totally challenging the games we play.
It's extremely threatening when you tell us that we should be dropping to the ground in terror duing combat. Even though that's more dramatic than realistic; if you ever watch footage of people in combat, the *fact* is that some people act effectively, and don't just wet their pants. I have seen footage of soldiers in Iraq calmly working together to spot and take aimed single shots at a guy hiding in a building; coordination, good aim, and efficiency can and have been exhibited in firefights many times. Some people take very serious injuries but still act intelligently; have you ever read "We Were Soldiers Once, And Young"? It's a collection of narratives from the Vietnam War, and there's a couple of instances in that book where someone is badly injured but keeps functioning. Now *you're* projecting your sense of drama over reality, aren't you, since you're assuming that everyone must shit their pants and stagger around stupidly in a combat situation for the role playing to be real? Is it so hard to believe that someone with extensive combat training and experience under their belt might actually do things efficiently like they spend a lot of their time drilling to do? By your logic, every single SWAT team raid would end up a chaotic disaster because it's impossible for a team of individuals to storm a building as a unit. You're so funny, Creepwood. No one is impressed by your misunderstood artistic angst, or your talking about the correct way to role play shooting people when you obviously haven't even researched the topic of shooting people. I've got a question for you: how can you claim the superior role play without proper research? |
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Jun 19 2005, 04:08 AM
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#106
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
It's on page 3 of the New World of Angst ™ manual.
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Jun 19 2005, 04:17 AM
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#107
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
He's saying that writing over the top, superficial nonsense is easy. Even Tom Clancy can do it. Whether that superficial nonsense is (1) Logjammin', the story of the buff electrician and the two scantily clad roommates down on their luck (obvious joke: successfully resisted!); (2) Rainbow Six, the story of a bunch of carboard cutouts armed with fake guns and fake facts who fight fake enemies; (3) or your heroes, raping and strangling 12 year old kids, it doesn't matter. Without depth, without substance, without intelligence, all your attempts at horrifying me with the worst stuff you can come up with will be nothing more than palid attempts at Shock and Awe. And it doesn't work. The further you reach for the inhuman, the more angst you try and inject into your narrative, the better your writing has to be to support it; without substance, without intelligence, with only the superficial, it is nothing but pretentious nonsense. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Jun 19 2005, 04:30 AM
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#108
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Guests |
How much would you charge for a full-time job translating CD to English?
But, yeah. That's exactly my point. |
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Jun 19 2005, 04:45 AM
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#109
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Target Group: Members Posts: 50 Joined: 27-March 05 From: gothenburg, sweden Member No.: 7,243 |
you 'all' seem to think that all of the 'actions' (or inactions) i described in my first post were to be used. they were just examples, like pick and choose one. You're talking about soldiers, you are still talking about shadowrunner characters, like die hard core battlehardenes characters. How the fuck did they get there? Not all of them are militrary trained, where did it all start, they we're just borned, turned 18 and became unstoppable killing machines. |
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Jun 19 2005, 04:50 AM
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#110
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Target Group: Members Posts: 50 Joined: 27-March 05 From: gothenburg, sweden Member No.: 7,243 |
are you seriously questioning my english abilities? oh man that's low. Are you a multilanguage prodigy? |
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Jun 19 2005, 04:53 AM
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#111
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Target Group: Members Posts: 50 Joined: 27-March 05 From: gothenburg, sweden Member No.: 7,243 |
are we even talking about the same thing? I'm not talking about playing angst and morbid destruction. I'm talking about learning about the human psyche. |
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Jun 19 2005, 04:59 AM
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#112
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
As mentioned in another thread, my current job as a salon booking coordinator is not paying nearly well enough. pm to discuss rates. Prices start a 10/h and no laughing at my current job.
Oh baby. I think my irony meter just exploded in my pants.
No, you're not. There is learning, there is no exploration of the depths of the human condition, there is no insight into the line between human in inhuman in what you are talking about. What you are talking about is pornography— and, ok, it's not pornography of sex, but it's about as mindless. You can string together all the inhuman acts you like; without any of the aforementioned depth, it's sterile, facile, self indulgent, and entirely meaningless. |
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Jun 19 2005, 05:04 AM
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#113
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Target Group: Members Posts: 50 Joined: 27-March 05 From: gothenburg, sweden Member No.: 7,243 |
hence the questions about seriousness. |
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Jun 19 2005, 05:06 AM
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#114
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
I won't laugh at it, but i'm not sure how good that is going to look on a resume sent applying for a wetwork job. :cyber:
An excellent reason to not keep your irony meter in your pants. I keep mine at home in a jar on the shelf. Once you are married for a few years you stop seeing a need to carry it around with you. |
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Jun 19 2005, 05:29 AM
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#115
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,286 Joined: 24-May 05 From: A 10x10 room with an orc and a treasure chest Member No.: 7,409 |
Um... Creepwood. CD is short for Crimsondude 2.0.
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Jun 19 2005, 05:40 AM
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#116
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 288 Joined: 7-December 04 Member No.: 6,873 |
Why does this topic still exist, this is an uphill battle. Nothing like fervent belief to sustain a man in spite of logic or reason.
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Jun 19 2005, 05:44 AM
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#117
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,286 Joined: 24-May 05 From: A 10x10 room with an orc and a treasure chest Member No.: 7,409 |
We gotta have a trainwreck of a thread to balence out the pure goodness of the drop bear thread, it's intraweb Feng Shui.
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Jun 19 2005, 05:51 AM
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#118
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 288 Joined: 7-December 04 Member No.: 6,873 |
To be fair, I love the drop bear thread. I guess I can stomache this abomination if it is for a good cause.
Nothing to see here folks, back to the train wreck. |
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Jun 19 2005, 07:12 AM
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#119
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
We need to get creep into the SR4 Forum...Now that's a place he'd fit in just right ;)
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Jun 19 2005, 07:27 AM
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#120
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,286 Joined: 24-May 05 From: A 10x10 room with an orc and a treasure chest Member No.: 7,409 |
Is it really that bad in there? I might have to go check it out, for umm... research... on the human psyche... yeah that's the ticket.
Okay who am I kidding I love laughing at people whine and make themselves look foolish about stupid stuff, like not playing a game "right". EDIT- Typo stupid their/there/they're |
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Jun 19 2005, 08:16 AM
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#121
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
Dude, Seek help. You are one sick bastard to come up with that scenario. Please don't EVER post any kind of horribly sick scene here again. DSF is my bastion of sanity in this world, I don't need some psycho Whitewolf refugee who thinks hes a vampire saying that kind of crap here. Really, seek help. You need it. This just made me sick to my stomach. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Jun 19 2005, 08:23 AM
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#122
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Guests |
No. If I was going to insult you, I'd make it pretty clear I was doing so. But I didn't. I was talking to Arethusa.
Well, that's the whole point of character creation. Depending on what skillset and stats you pick, you can start out playing a hardened ex-Special Forces soldier turned street mercenary. So, yes, your starting PC can be a hardened killing machine, effectively tabula rasa.
Oh, yeah. Some light "direct action" may be required. Because sometimes the substance of what I post has to be beaten into people.
A moment of silence, please. |
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Jun 19 2005, 08:35 AM
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#123
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Where's the psychotropic IC when you need one? In creep's case, it'd be real positive conditioning no matter how you look at it.
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Jun 19 2005, 08:41 AM
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#124
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,286 Joined: 24-May 05 From: A 10x10 room with an orc and a treasure chest Member No.: 7,409 |
*Begins to sing "Danny Boy"* as they carry off the Irony meter. This thread like other annoying things, such as pop music, is growing on me the more I drink. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Jun 19 2005, 08:41 AM
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#125
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Guests |
Well, I think it's a pretty good example of why I value the mechanics so highly (and thus does relate to about 90% of my posts in the SR4 forum). The struggle in the roll of dice and application of pools does in its own way relfect character development and growth in a way that a diceless storyteller system or streamlined dice play, to me, hinders said growth. It's especially interesting with the presence of KP (or lack thereof) when your super sneaky ninja blows a Stealth test and out of 6 Stealth dice his highest roll is a 3, but rerolling a couple of dice (assuming a 5 KP character) manages to get a 9 because luck and experience overcome naturally dumb luck. On the flipside, someone with no KP could do the same thing and still end up with a 3 thanks to the Open Test when it matters and your PC has to live with the fact that that one time when breaking into a research lab half the building heard him fart, but he stealthed into a Stuffer Shack rolling a 19 and could have made off with half the store without anyone being the wiser. You don't get those kind of experiences if you just wing it because any time a PC does something extraordinary (or extraordinarily stupid) its legitimacy comes into question. That's why I roll dice when I write fiction, especially with PCs whose expertise is with skills that use the Open Test (Stealth and Social skills, specifically). Because if I didn't have a Social Adept aggressor roll a 17, the Social Adept target never getting a success (Kinesics is liquid Jesus) would have been something I could pull out of my ass, but that the numbers were there made it all the sweeter.
There's the spirit! |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 12th May 2025 - 10:48 PM |
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