It's funny how everone seems to be opting all their actions during firefigts. Everbody has 720° vision, never fumble a clipchange, never have any fear of getting shot, no shellshocks, no grogginess if hit, supprssing fire is useless and combat fatigue, and always doing as much as you can during a round of combat. never surprised. and so on.

am I totally wrong or do you guys play this way?

You've never met my decker that screams like a schoolgirl when the shooting starts.

720-degree vision? Your group must never require Perception Tests or use Cover modifiers (or both of them together).
Never have fear of getting shot? Again, I guess your group never uses cover, as getting behind cover = fear of getting shot.
No "shellshock" or "grogginess" if hit? What do you think Wound Modifiers partially cover?
Suppressive Fire is useless? If you say so. Works great at keeping opponents at bay when I use it.
Combat Fatigue? That's partially covered by you taking wounds, running out of Combat Pool, and running out of Karma Pool.
Never Surprised? Either your group never use the Surprise rules, or they munch out their Reaction scores.

Most of that sounds like personal problems. No offense intended.

Supressive fire is pretty useful, at least if you use an HMG at full auto.

Other than that, 720 degree vision? Wow. 720 out of 360. I want that implant too.

I play SR3 because it lets me play competent, professional characters - I've started enough D&D characters at 1st level to have had my fill of being helpless and weak.

I also enjoy character development, which only works if my character is alive, and dropping clips in the middle of a fight or letting someone sneak up on me for dramatic effect is not conducive to that.

Yeah, this isn't PrivateRyanRun after all.

Yeah, ok. Bye, troll. Does this forum have an ignore function...?

Everyone in my games tends to play a general archetype, I dunno if that is cliche or not.

I always enforce modifiers and tests, it sounds like your perception of how the rules are written (Not how you play, but how you asked us if we play) is 100% wrong. I have never had a runner stand still when he was getting shot at unless he was behind cover, or do any of the other things you mentioned.

Jesus Christ. No game will ever accurately simulate a real-life firefight. Trust me on this. Just have fun with it for crying out loud and let it slide.

That is because real life has too many variables to be simulated with a few dice, the closest we can show is hit or miss with a clear modifier to the target to hit (Be it a high or low number, every game is too clear cut). FPS' have the potential for realism, but no one wants to shoot an entire pistol clip and hit nothing when pointing at a stationary target, people want to be total badasses and bust caps in people foreheads as they jumpduck through a window.

129600 degree vision

Actually, 60482 degree vision. Up and down are the same regardless of where you point, and you're really just looking at the same thing regardless of if you're bending over backwards or just turn around. (178*360+2)

Worst. Thread. Ever.

Good point, but with each of those directions of view you have your choice orientations as to the up direction of your visual field, so 21773520 degree vision!

Don't forget if you have the capability of staring two different directions with your eyes...or if you have multiple eyes located in random areas....This adds multipliers, I would think.

Silence, intraweb-nazis!

CreepwoodRun (4th edition) is the hottest new thing. Every fight starts with your super-cool team of hardened professional killers getting caught completely flat-footed by whatever rent-a-cop it is they're fighting.

Once the initial surprise round phase is over (and half the party is dead from the security guard's suppressive fire), the remaining half should trip while frantically diving for full cover (as the fear of getting shot compels them to do nothing offensive, on the grounds they might shoot themselves, and as their own realistic inept combat ability sends them comically sprawling instead, anyways).

Phase two takes a little longer, because both the security guards and the CreepwoodRunners are so tired all of a sudden. That initial .75 second adrenaline burst is gone, and combat fatigue has set in. Half the security guards are so shocked by the sudden confrontation they're a part of that they pass out cold. The other half attempt to reload, but fumble. The CreepwoodRunners, meanwhile, manage to shake, urinate, tremble, defecate, weep, and crawl their way to full cover.


Phase Three is just the super-augmented street sammie getting his actions (no one else rolled high enough for init). He got shot, though, in the initial horrendous wave of suppressive-fire. He's only got a Moderate Wound due to all his dermal plating and other augmentations, but he's just so shell-shocked and groggy after getting hit that he can't do much but lie there.

Phase Four is the sammie finally staggering to cover, because his overwhelming fear of enemy fire has him so incapable of doing anything usefull (despite the security guards all being busy bending over and picking up their dropped magazines), plus he can't see where the security guards are due to not having a 3784293 degree field of vision.

Round Two begins with half the party dead, half the guards passed out from boo-scary-fright, and everyone's movement penalized by difficult terrain, due to all the puddles of urine from everyone failing the Willpower (24) rolls to keep from wizzing themselves 'cause there's a fight. But that's okay, 'cause no one wants to do any moving anyways (since they can't see what's going on).

Roll init! Isn't this fun?!

Taking a large well meaning step back...

Scaryly enough, our group had a newbie start and within 5 minutes had more accurately reacted to the battle than the others. When bullets started to fly he did run for cover! Suppressive fire made him stay down. Wounds made him stop to think about the consequences.

The regulars had become lax because the last few sessions (and we only get one every 6 weeks or so) had been extremely short and I'd opted out of drawn out combat and gone all Hong Kong.

And to end the ramble - enforce realism. Thankfully I have a guy who usually rolls at least two rule-of-ones a session so the fumbling with clips happens quite regularly.

Critias wins the thread.

Why run for cover when you wired-to-the-gills street sam can take shotgun shells and elephant guns loaded with EX explosive bullets to the chest without getting injured?

I'm all for roleplaying, but some of us like rollplaying as well. Let the dice fall and describe the action. If you don't like rules go play storyteller in the SR universe.

I'm with Doc Funk, you must be missing some rules. I don't tell everyone where every other person on the field is. Sometimes they can hear an enemy, but can't spot him. Sometimes one guy sees someone and the other guys don't. Oftentimes they start to get tired, and suppressive fire, especially from multiple people, quickly becomes VERY deadly.

Plus, the people in my parties who don't know how to fight, generally try to avoid fighting. Full cover, on the defensive, shoot anything that pokes its head through. The people who move to the front are, funny enough, trained professionals, and know how to say duck and search for targets.

oh, christ, now i understand what's going on here. everybody: creepwood is an rp snob. the rules are, to him, something that get in the way of a good story. there's nothing inherently wrong with that, of course--but creepwood is here to spread the good news and help us overthrow the tyranny of the rules. whether or not you've got a problem with him, if you enjoy the gaming aspects of RPGs (the dice, the rules, etc.), then creepwood has a problem with you.

creepwood, know what i did last week? i made a character by rolling up his stats, and only came up with a background after i was done! and i still don't have a name for him! (join in, everybody, it's like throwing garlic at vampires!)

One thing needed to establish is.

What's the definition of fun in a roleplaying game?

Is it finding the most opted way to kill an opponent?


The reason for this thread was more of finding out of anybody really roleplays anymore. The way we play is that the GM is not an opponent, we tell a story together. We pretty much handle our roleplaying ourselves. If I get a hit in the shoulder for example I tell myself to the rest of the group i.e. that I'm slung around, getting off balance and that if I choose to fire my own weapon the nextcomming action I will have a few options.

either I will just fire some rounds in the general direction hoping that I will get some suppressive fire so that I will not be hit again making the attacker duck for more cover

OR I might try to duck an cover completely if I don't MYSELF consider me too groggy by the hit.

OR if I consider myself not TOO groggy I might even try to hit the person shot me if I don't consider MYSELF too groggy.

OR the absolut coolest thing to do, 'a paus' were me and the attacker stare at eachother.

What I think most players and GM's lack is confiedence in eachother ability to play 'fair' and hence need rules to control that.

If you ask me, BORING way to play.

I agree. Threepwood, part of the game is talking with people, figuring out the mystery, winning over your contacts, and puzzling your way out of the locked room. But part of it is also blowing the heck out of your enemies and seeing those numbers on your character sheet go up. I know, that's a funny thought, but some of us LIKE rolling the dice and wiping the sweat off our collective brows. Some of play the missions in part to see those little numbers go higher after each run.

So saying our games are boring and your game is fine, but remember, you're only one lonely pirate. Some of us happen to like a mix. Some of us happen to like the numbers far more than the acting. Some of us think that freeform is the dumbest idea on earth. So don't simply assume that just because YOU like it, we will too.

it is incredibly difficult to do something you believe to be stupid. And almost as difficult to do so in an RPG.

We create our characters with personalities that will allow them to survive, a cowardly samy would be useless and probably get the team killed because he is the one that you expect to be able to push threw an ambush, a rdecker on the other hand should duck and leave that job to the combat character while a mage would probably do both, hide and then summon something to break a way out.

Creepwood, the problem with the style you put forward is 2 fold, one it really works best without mechanics at all, and that’s all very well if that’s what you want but it creates problems with power level. For example, it’s a combat game so in my history I include that I had training with the SAS (or similar eleat military organization) and specialized in close range work with assault rifles, SMGs and pistols. The problem emerges when I and the GM in the middle of a chase seen have a disagreement over how far and fast I can run, or how good I am at stealth or whether or not I am proficient with pintle mounted HMG or know what buttons to push on a Chinese rocket launcher or is capable of field striping two burned out radios to get one working. Or even just how good a shot I am with a heavy pistol. Now to my mind any member of a eleat military squad should be able to do all those things (the radio only if he is lucky enough that the same component wasn’t damaged in each radio). But the GM may feal that one character should not be able to do that many things with any degree of proficiency (the SR rules certainly won’t let you create what I think an experienced Special Forces soldier should have)

What the rules are for is to quantify these things, so there won’t be disagreement over what you can and can not do, you ether have the skill or you don’t, dose a shot hit or dose the target dodge, eth rules cover things your character can not choose to change, weather the character tries to shoot or try’s to hide and stay safe is something the character can decide so you don’t roll to determine what is attempted, you only roll to determine weather an attempt is successful.

This is how I find it most fun. I can try to do whatever I want (within the personality I choose) without restrictions but there is a defined mechanic to randomly determine weather I succeed or fail.

Edward

Having done 5 years of LRP (Lorien Trust's Gathering, in the UK, by the way), I can honestly say that Shadowrun is more accurate than real combat.

Having also ran diceless roleplay before, I can honestly say it's a nightmare. Without a proper mechanic a game becomes a total ball of confusion, as players try and work out what they did wrong. It also gets a bit a bit "tales around the campfire".

The fun in an RPG is not having a system that reflects reality; it's not having combat last 3 years as the GM describes how the bad guys fling themselves behind the bulkhead 22.7 metres away, opening up with a 7-shot burst from a 2063 edition M22A2 assault rifle with a well polished finish; the fun in an RPG is seeing how, with the character you and your friends created, you can make a simple ruleset and some numbers make something you can tell people about excitedly. It's like computer games; is the fun in a racing game the knowing that your suspension is set up to emulate Colin McRae's Ford Focus rally car throughout his 2004 season, or taking a sweet handbrake turn to grab last second glory at Silverstone in a car you've slavishly tuned up over the last few days?

The fun in a game is what you acheive, how close a call it was, and how proud you are it happened. It's about doing stuff you couldn't do in real life, like leaping between brooftops firing at the corper skag who tried to kill your friend last week, not knowing you accurately portrayed the physics inherant in jumping between the rooftops.

And anyone who says different should be banned from playing the damn games.

So effing what?

mfb's been playing SR for a lot less time than I have, and he's still by far the better roleplayer.

But that still doesn't actually do anything to prove or even suggest that his comment was wrong, false, or batshit crazy.

Just chill with the trolling, make yourself a few simplified houserules, and go play...sheesh.

If you hunger for "real life" combat, go fight a war...

Which makes for a better action movie -- a hero who spends the whole flick looking around stupidly while he gets shot at, finally figuring out where it's coming from, falling over 'cause he got clipped in the shoulder, blazing away wildly (and missing with each shot) at his unseen assailant, pissing himself, and then fumbling a reload while crying for momma and crawling for cover?

Or one where he looks heroic, shoots the bad guy, and taps the female lead and her sister at the same time?

Not what makes a better movie, mind you -- but what makes a better action movie? Which one is more fun to watch (despite being unrealistic, or whatever)? And, lastly, which type of movie would you rather be the star of, or put yourself in his place?

Games are for fun.

Second place in a gunfight is dead. Maybe your GM lets you get away with slacking, maybe the rest of your 'runner team (or whatever style of game you play) is okay with picking up your dead weight, and maybe your NPCs have 2's and 3's in all their combat skills, so you can spend phase after phase sitting on your thumb.

But where I play, if the sammie doesn't pull his weight, things fall apart; the center cannot hold.

So, yes. If you're not a warmachine, you're a goof. And either you, or someone else, has to go back through character creation because of it.

Personally I hate both. A rule does not need to exist for each and every single thing. Thats why you have general rules.

I alos dislike people who show up and pull everything out of their backside, never crack a book or pick up a dice. Thats not gaming, thats larping at a table.

It is both Role and Roll playing. Most of us enjoy both. Those that only enjoy one or the other Larp or play Quake.

I say again that Critias wins this thread. If you can't survive the Rollplay, you don't get to Roleplay. On account of the fact that your character fails @ life, literally, and is now a corpse.

You can and should do both. Without her personality, Skate is just a decker who moonlights as a Sammie. Without her stats and skills, she's a raver lesbian nympho with a taste for jailbait and a 1,000 a month clothes and guns habit.

Together, she's a wire-fu asskicker almost straight out of The Matrix (1999, Keanu Reeves version, not the Matrix from SR.)

Creepwood, it sounds like you're playing with really lousy roleplayers. The rules are there to enforce the way the game is meant to be played. In this case Shadowrun is meant to be action packed, exciting and strategic. You can choose to ignore the rules, which is fine, but there are consequences to that. You have to be playing with mature people who are willing to immerse themselves in the game world wether or not its to their advantage.

For example, you can have rules about cover modifiers and line of sight, in which case everyone is rewarded for taking cover and punished for standing in the open. Or, if its too munchy for you, you can ignore them, in which case there might not be a specific reward for taking cover, but your players should do it anyway, because no one would just stand in the open and take bullets nonchalantly.