Behold the power of the edit function, creepwood. It gains you friends and keeps threads at managable sizes ...

For the "rules for everything" part, see the Decking SR3R thread. I've cut the rules down to a single paragraph of text so it's playable.

You don't need rules for everything, but you need rules. Everything has them, and some games have more than others, but that is why a good GM takes a ruleset and forms it to his will. Shadowrun's system works in parts and not in others, which is why I have a "personal edition" which is my own, tailored for my game, treatment of the rules.

And I truly detest OTT realism. In a firefight your concern is on where you need to fire and how much at risk you are. Prevailing winds, morale level... all purely coincidental.

I happen to be quite alright with listening to people sitting around a living room telling stories, as long as those stories are interesting and believable.

Thats what I use rules for, when the players (this word can also be used to describe actors in a play) aren't in character, when I think its best to let fate deside the outcome of a scene or action, or when I want to put limits on something. This happens to be different from a lot of other people's opinions on this board.

If you want your players to behave a certain way, you do one of two things, you enforce rules that enforce that behavior, or you trust them to do it on their own. If you're not willing to do the former, then maybe you need to talk to the other players to see what's going on.

Shut up, you! Once you've grown out of whatever petulant phase you're in, mfb, you RPG newbie, you'll understand that ineptitude is an interesting trait to explore in a Shadowrun character. Someday you'll realize that surviving to the end of a session isn't what the game is all about. Winning, losing, sucking, bleeding, it's all the same. Think outside the box! Characters that suck at their jobs are the wave of the future!

Long live CreepwoodRun (4th ed.) !!

Actually Creepwood you are completely and utterly wrong. There are rules for everything, especially in real life. Now that is reality and the sooner you realize the sooner we can take you off the thorazine. (just kidding there)

In all actuality the rules in RPGs are guidelines to prevent the whole "BANG! I got you" "No you didn't. You missed." arguments that come up no matter how much we pretend we aren't kids. If you don't like the rules and mechanics that is your choice. As others have very vocally stated hardly makes you right.

I think the new official name for a Shadowrun that goes horribly tits up not due to lack of planning or bad players or bad dice, but by the simple expediant that the players were mechanically inept in the fields they attempted to participate in (A starting Sammie who says that "Wired 1 and a 4 Pistols skill sounds like enough for me, anymore is overkill",) shall officially be known as a Creepwoodrun. Or a Creeprun, and the location is forever referred to by the survivors as a Creepwood.




CreepwoodRun, 4th edition: Where getting shot, peeing your pants and dropping your mag as you reload is fun, because the game designer says so.

And it's not even innately funny trolling. The rest of us are pulling all the weight, on that front! It's hard work, turning a conversation like this into something vaguely amusing to the point it's worth reading. And I don't even get paid for this!

And you just fed him.

Everybody, ignore the wanker and taunt his ideas. If you don't respond directly to him, he'll give up and go back to wanking at cyberporno.

Yes, but remember.

Wanker-trolls automaticall fail @ life. But by responding to them, you give them false pretenses that they have some meaning. By ignoring them, they give up quicker and hopefully frag off. Or frag thesleves, though a much more rare event than the media would have you believe.


[edit]frag off! FRAG!. Worst. Typo. EVAR!...

And, uhh, ShadowDragon? It's not like you haven't posted to the thread or something. Chastising others for feeding the troll is a little like Jesse Jackson calling the kettle black.

It's true... But I'm doing my best to ignore the troll himself, and just pay attention to the other people, like you.

Feh, I've been playing pen and paper RPGs since before they invented pens!! Arrr... I'm old and grizzled too...

Anyway, I agree with the general post. What *I* get out of Shadowrun has changed over time. When I started, I enjoyed combat, then I enjoyed roleplaying. I tried inept characters and enjoyed them briefly as well. Now I enjoy GMing (alright, I admit it, I can't find a good game to get into...) My wife started out loving the roleplaying, then she got into playing 'normal characters'. She may get into the mechanics one day. But thats just her preference, and its fine, as long as it goes well with the rest of the group.

Had someone come up to me when I started and said I should play an inept character, I would've hated Shadowrun. If I played now and had to do a combat monster, I would hate that Shadowrun game. I've tried making my wife play with more mechanics, and she hates it. We've both tried LARP, she loves it, I dislike it. We've both tried freeform, she likes it, I dislike it.

Am I wrong? No. Am I unaware of your enlightened roleplaying? Hardly. I've tried it all, pbem, pbw, larp, freeform, diceless, pnp, lotsa roleplay, little roleplay, high level, low level, medium level, epic level, high magic, low magic, ultra realistic, ultra non-realistic, hitting stones together, etc. I just happen to LIKE playing as I do now, slightly fewer rules than are in the books, dice hidden away, but still running with mechanics and heavy reliance on the stats.

I suspect everyone here is aware of the type of game you play. Some play it now. Some have played it before. Simply said, those who want to play that way will, and those that don't, won't. Your coming in here won't help them, won't change their minds, won't illuminate them, won't guide them, won't mature them.

Your efforts are misguided. Perhaps when you've roleplayed for 16 years, you'll realize that none of the ways of playing are 'better' or 'more enlightened', just different, and given enough time, most of us play each way at least briefly.

(Here's to the sincere hope that he's not a troll, and actually authentic in his misguided attempts to help.)

I swore to myself I wouldn't respond to this thread. It seems I lack willpower. Creepwood if you aren't a troll (which I doubt) I'll share with you a nugget of wisdom my group passes around "The enemy is whoever's going to get you killed. No matter what side they're on." I hate interparty killing, but if someone's being a detriment in a firefight, like you described, I'll blast em. Sure I could leave them or drag them out, but either of those options cut my chances of survival (they could rat me out, or i could get shot dragging them out). Now if someone's actually useful in a fight I will go to great lengths to get them out of whatever comes up. I expect nothing less from those I play with.

creepwood, I think one version of the idiom you're looking for would go thus in English: "Do not try to remove the splinter from your brother's eye until you have removed the log from your own."

there's nothing wrong with rp'ing more in combat. i put as much rp as i can into my games at all times, combat included. i happen to feel that a character with high Body, high Will, and a lot of combat experience shouldn't scream like a girl and cower when someone pops a shot off at him--so i don't rp him that way. i use the rules as a basis for my rp. i've got another character who's absolutely terrified of combat; if she ever gets into a firefight (haven't gotten her into one yet), she'll probably act exactly as you described. but if it's not appropriate to the character, then it's silly to try to force it in.

so, in answer to your basic question: yes, i rp combat. i rp it as appropriate to the character.

edit: and when the hell did i call you a noob?

Since I already replied I will once more. To me if I wanted to play a game where my character wasn't good in combat I'd play in the World of Darkness, where the system is kinder to than shadowruns to survive with such a character. My vision of shadowrun is extremely violent. You're a professional criminal who does bad things for money, your character had better be able to handle themselves. Where in WoD you don't have to be as martially oriented hell you don't have to break human laws at all as a mage (just natures ).

I think the idiom he's looking for is "pot calling a kettle black."

And to be fair, several people were the pot calling the kettle black. Especially the postcount elitist snob. That was just sad.

That said, if you truely are a foreigner, then put some more ranks into speaking english, because what we have here is a failure to communicate.

If, however, as I and undoubtedly many others are suspecting, you're playing the "non-English-native" card to try and weasel out of your muchly deserved flaming... Screw you. You come on here and try to Spread the Word. We have another term for that in America. Evangelists. They usually get a door slammed in their faces. Most people want to shoot them.

We are happy as we are. We're not ignorant heathens in need of a Prophet of Light to shine his Light on our ignorant, sinful darkness.

I Like playing as a chica who can outdraw most people with Wired 1 on her own non-wired reflexes, as well as being a martial arts master and a wiz Decker. Skate is a Sammie when she needs to be, and a Decker when she needs to be. She can do both, quite well.

She also is a character. She's very good as a character. Just because she's optimized, because I don't feel like getting her shot up or killed, dosen't detract from her funinity. Far from it, it adds to it, because by optimizing her for combat, I can say with a reasonable degree of certainty that she'll live to see the next game's roleplay.
She's not a hardened killer, but neither does she back down. She won't scream and cry and pee her latex hotpants because someone is shooting for her. She's a competent person. She'll perform a wire-fu panache'd Athletics roll behind cover, draw her pistols, and whip out from behind cover under the full speed of her wired reflexes, popping caps in the ass of whoever shot at her.

To be fair to Creepwood, that is why they released Missions, Cyberpirates, Fields of Fire/SotA63, etc.

Alternate Campaigns.

No, i ment that as a general rule, thats what the game should be, it's alright, if you come up with an idea, and want to see where it goes;to me, it seems like eVERY game you run is some "variant"

I loved the pirate campaign my group did. I can't count they number of times "We are men, OF THE SEA!!!" was uttered.

We did a ganger campaign, a special forces campaign, one where we were all company men, a X-Files type campaign, and a mercany campaign. The one thing that was similar was that there was always violence. Your campaign does sound interesting Creepwood, but it would for me be very boring. My group isn't all about violence, though, we regularly get on and roleplay what we do during downtime between scheduled sessions, sometimes we do so during scheduled sessions depending on how busy the gm was during the week, and those are fun and funny too, and sometimes more lethal than the actual runs (never let your mages play with lightning spells around the C12). (Insert point I forgot I was trying to make here)

It's fine that you want to use the system for more than it was meant to play. The game was designed for playing criminals, however, and thusly, most people presume that's the sort of game you're talking about unless you specify otherwise. And since violent criminals are rarely squirmish around guns, it rarely makes sense for them to flinch.

Had you said at the beginning 'do a lot of you play non-standard games with people who aren't violent criminals? Do you play out people who have difficulties firing a weapon, etc.?' You would have gotten a very different response, in part because we know when you're talking about your character having difficulties, your character is non-standard, likely not a criminal, possibly never fired a weapon before. Roleplaying the reactions you said then become not only common, but almost essential, and I suspect a lot of people here would agree. But it's important to specify the unusual characters first.

That said, shadowrun really was made for criminals in a cyberpunk setting. I've used it for a young borgeous (sp?) woman from the late 16th century with some tweaking, but it's really not made for that. You may want to consider using another system in that case, for a number of reasons. World of Darkness was suggested. Otherwise your CEO who's just found himself being shot at by corporate guards is more than likely not going to last five minutes, which makes for a pretty short (and thereby usually pretty boring) game.

Sounds like he already has.

y'know, creepwood, you might have an easier time of it if you stop being such an ass. you talk about how you're just trying to show people new ideas and not criticizing anybody's style of play, but your fourth post in this thread was calling somebody a munchkin--and you called them that based on a one-sentence post that contained no information of any real value about that person's style of play.

i call bullshit, creepwood. you're not here to enlighten anybody. you're here to pick fights.

creepwood, for chrissake. nobody called you a noob. nobody called you a newbie. nobody said, or even implied, that you were new to roleplaying. do you understand that you are making things up? roleplaying seniority had no place in this thread until you brought it up.

whole different allegation, dude.

Whadda you mean?!?! You mean you got me all worked up because some guy couldn't read right? What is the world coming to? Must be a roleplay snob... a roll-playing kind of guy would have read more carefully.