then explain it better. or, better, go away.

you know what? when someone brings up the concept of raping and murdering kids as viable rp, and then expects anyone to bother digging through that shit to look for a point? that pretty much means they're the idiot.

edit: the name i called you fits. i edited it out because i'm trying to make a bare effort to be civil.

re-edit: you don't understand enough about interacting with humans to discuss roleplaying with me, nor with half the posters on this board. the communication difficulties you're experiencing don't spring from your limited grasp of english; there are plenty of posters who are less fluent than you, who can get their points across with little difficulty. you're experiencing difficulty communicating because you're either
a) five to ten years behind the development curve of most RPers, or
b) a fucking martian.

either way? i'm out. have fun with the raping and the murdering.

I think the part that creapwood is missing (from watching him respond to me) is:

a) Before the crime in question, the PCs considered themselves 'good people'
b) After the crime, they consider themselves 'perhaps compromised people'.

He was talking about putting the PCs in a place that they can sympathize with serial killers. I suspect he means put the PCs in a place where they can justify the actions of serial killers, which would either require seriously messing with the PCs heads so that they aren't fully aware of the ramifications of the crime in question, or, more likely, the PCs are forced to commit a horrible crime to achieve a good ends.

If I'm reading that right (and creepwood can confirm or deny that), I suspect torture is a better example than rape. Torture is usually done with another ends in mind, and so that's implied. Rape rarely is. So without more background information, we're forced to assume that the characters raped because they wanted to rape, not because they were using it to do something else.

As a general rule of thumb, people don't read forums like good literature or deep movies. We read what we're told, and if there's a deeper meaning, we need to be alerted of that ahead of time.

who are you to say what's right and wrong? you're proposing that raping kids is acceptable behavior in an RPG--by whose authority do you make that statement? do whatever the hell you want to in your games, but don't tell us we're wrong for not swallowing the juvenile bullshit you're spewing from behind the flimsy shield of "exploring the human psyche".

you're still not getting it. lots of us already went through the little phase you're going through. lots more of us never bothered with that phase, recognizing it as trite crap. you're behind us, not ahead of us.

I'm not a shining pillar of morality. I'm not even, according to many standards, a "good" person. I am, however, fairly stable when it comes to knowing what's right and wrong (even if, on inconsequential matters such as internet politeness, I give in to the little devil on my shoulder more often than listening to the little angel on my other). Despite not always doing what's right, I feel (as everyone feels) I'm fairly capable of knowing what's right.

And, to me -- and most others you'll ask -- there's no reason to role-play out a Shadowrun character raping and murdering a pair of twelve year old girls. There are other bad things a Shadowrun character can do, if you feel a strong urge to use the game as nothing but a way to explore humanity's darker side.

There are things you can do quite well simply with the rules written, things you can do very easily keeping the game on-track with the overall feel of the world as presented to us, things professional criminals do in the nature of their day-to-day busienss, that will let you be oh-so-adult and explore the darker corners of the human psyche. Please keep in mind Shadowrun is far from the greatest system (though it might have a fine setting) in which to try and "explore the human psyche." There's no built in morality or sanity rules, there's no alignment, there's no system to back you up for your little morality experiments. That's part of why it's a great game, but it's part of why it's far from the ideal game system for you to try your little "delve into the shadows of the human soul" blah blah blah horseshit. Go play WoD, where you can at least claim the system is built just for your crazy experiments in trying to see how evil you can be and still call yoruself human. If you do have to (1) try and explore morality from the other side of the right/wrong angle, and do have to (2) do so in Shadowrun, then you can (3) do so by exploring the morality of everyday Shadowrunner crap. Stealing. Killing (as part of stealing/robbing, not for no reason at all). Robbery. Kidnapping. Extortion. There's plenty of already amoral stuff Shadowrunners can do, that you can emphasise, without having to resort to playing out a double rape/pedophilia/strangulation. There's no call, or reason, to sit down with your buddies over pizza and Mt. Dew for gaming night, and then spend time playing out the rape and strangulation murder of a pair of children.

Now, because there is no reason to do so, and you claim that doing so is an acceptable (and even desirable) example of role playing, means you want to do so. Break the logic chain down, step by step. If/and/then. If it's not required and you do so then you do so for no reason than that you wish to. The next step on that logical train is "you role play out the rape and murder of innocent children because you wish to." The next logical step is "you wish to rape and murder innocent children." If you can't see how your continued argument about this suggestion of yours might cause some concern, disgust, and controversy, regardless of language barriers, you're not the brightest bulb in the sun lamp.

The fact you put it forth as an example of deep, meaningful, role play casts you in a suspicous light. The fact you, later, said (paraphrase) "a noob RP will rape people just because he can, whereas I rape in-game for deeper more meaningful reasons" is further harming your case.

(Further, the implication of your "a noob RPer rapes because ______, a seasoned RPer rapes because ________" implies heavily that all RPers rape. I find this horribly offensive, and exactly the sort of statement all the anti-RPG crowd lusts madly after as an example of why we're all multi-state murder sprees waiting to happen. Hopefully none of them come to DS and troll for quotes to put in the news.)

You are doing nothing but stirring shit up. From the get go (the initial wholly incorrect, condescending, but at least inoffensive topic of this ridiculous thread). That's called trolling. You showed up and started preaching to us how we're not role playing right, you flexed your weewee by bragging about how long you've been playing, you talked down to every single person here about our supposed role-play style.. and that was before you jumped completely off the deep end and starting posting shocking sexual/violent/disgusting situations just to try and rattle people (apparently) and show how edgy and grown-up you are.

Why are you still here? Honestly? What brought you to Dumpshock, what made you start posting, and what's making you continue to do so despite seeing that what you're trying to say (however it is you're trying to say it) isn't really a message we care to hear? Why not go to the WoD boards and preach about your brilliance and ability to confront the darkness within, blah blah blah, where everyone cares about that?

so was i, retard. re-read what i said, re-read what you said.

I can honestly say that if something like that scenario ever appeared in a game I was playing in, during game time, that I would walk away and never play with that group again. It has no business in a game people are playing to enjoy themselves. Whatsoever. Least of all in a public forum.

If you're actually interested in finding out my opinions on something like that -- ask outright, somewhere else. It's a simple concept, you don't need to ruin a passtime for me to find out. Most people here I expect are the same. If you want to study morality, ethics, the nature of humanity, go take some classes. There's a proper place for it. SHADOWRUN is not it.

Critias is more than correct - your posts in this thread have contributed nothing of benefit. The only value to this entire thread is the occassional entertainment value from several of the people responding to you.

again with the being retarded. the rest of us have already looked at these things you're trying to force on us, and decided that it wasn't something we're interested in. you're the one still staring at it, fascinated, and trying to tell us how new and deep it is.

quote=creepwood]clear enough for you? [/quote]

It was clear to most of us a long time ago. We get it!

What we are trying to tell you is that we've been there, done that (not necessarily taken to your extremes though), and just don't really give a shit. If you want to play that way, feel free. We just don't really want to hear about it in graphic detail, nor do we need you preaching to us as to how we are wrong if we don't all choose to play in the same manner as you.

And this thread is finished. If people want to continue discussing some of the ideas raised in this thread, start a new one -- relevant to Shadowrun and without insults.