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creepwood
QUOTE (mfb)
where the hell did you get the idea that raping and murdering kids was new? it happens all the fucking time, dipshit. people also make their beds and do the laundry all the fucking time, but that doesn't mean anybody wants to rp it. except you, apparently, because you've just discovered the "shock and horror" phase that many young rp'ers go through. the fact that you've been playing RPGs for fifteen years makes this even sicker and sadder than normal.

critias already covered the story options for an event like that. but, oh wait, he "missed the point", right?

once again you are wrong about what I'm trying to get to.
mfb
then explain it better. or, better, go away.
creepwood
QUOTE (toturi)
QUOTE (creepwood @ Jun 19 2005, 11:08 PM)
It may very well be a cut as well. I just meant that there could be something in the story like this. not neccessarily play it. Although it confirmes my suspicons that many in this forum are not very open minded on 'new things'.

What you were suggesting are not only not new but incredibly dated as well. They belong in the section marked "been there, but didn't want to do that". Your provocative ideas had been brought up from time to time by other people crouched in less adversarial and egotistical manners and filed away after due examination as "Sick Ideas".

I can't believe what I'm hearing, you are still just seeing exactly what's in front of you, totally oblivious to the point.
creepwood
QUOTE (mfb)
then explain it better. or, better, fucktard

what's with the namecalling?

I can't explain it to you. I've tried but you won't just understand what I'm getting at.
mfb
you know what? when someone brings up the concept of raping and murdering kids as viable rp, and then expects anyone to bother digging through that shit to look for a point? that pretty much means they're the idiot.

edit: the name i called you fits. i edited it out because i'm trying to make a bare effort to be civil.

re-edit: you don't understand enough about interacting with humans to discuss roleplaying with me, nor with half the posters on this board. the communication difficulties you're experiencing don't spring from your limited grasp of english; there are plenty of posters who are less fluent than you, who can get their points across with little difficulty. you're experiencing difficulty communicating because you're either
a) five to ten years behind the development curve of most RPers, or
b) a fucking martian.

either way? i'm out. have fun with the raping and the murdering.
blakkie
QUOTE (Adam @ Jun 19 2005, 05:07 AM)
Hey hey -- I've had a couple reports that this thread has crossed the line, and it's certainly strayed way off topic, so either let it die or drag the half-living carcass back on topic, please.

Sorry about crossing that truth/fiction line. Ya, it's more like a steely foot than an irony meter. embarrassed.gif

P.S. Did you read the initial post before suggesting dragging this thread back on topic? This entire cursed thread was a doomed voyage from the begining. nyahnyah.gif
nezumi
I think the part that creapwood is missing (from watching him respond to me) is:

a) Before the crime in question, the PCs considered themselves 'good people'
b) After the crime, they consider themselves 'perhaps compromised people'.

He was talking about putting the PCs in a place that they can sympathize with serial killers. I suspect he means put the PCs in a place where they can justify the actions of serial killers, which would either require seriously messing with the PCs heads so that they aren't fully aware of the ramifications of the crime in question, or, more likely, the PCs are forced to commit a horrible crime to achieve a good ends.

If I'm reading that right (and creepwood can confirm or deny that), I suspect torture is a better example than rape. Torture is usually done with another ends in mind, and so that's implied. Rape rarely is. So without more background information, we're forced to assume that the characters raped because they wanted to rape, not because they were using it to do something else.

As a general rule of thumb, people don't read forums like good literature or deep movies. We read what we're told, and if there's a deeper meaning, we need to be alerted of that ahead of time.
toturi
QUOTE (creepwood)
I can't believe what I'm hearing, you are still just seeing exactly what's in front of you, totally oblivious to the point.

People who can see more than the things in front of them are often refered to as insane. They tend to hear things they can't believe as well.

I might be insane(see my sig) but I do not believe I'm quite at your level. So please, since you know I am seeing what is in front of me and not prone to having having hallucinations, put your point where I can see them: In front of me.
creepwood
QUOTE (toturi)
QUOTE (creepwood @ Jun 19 2005, 11:19 PM)
I can't believe what I'm hearing, you are still just seeing exactly what's in front of you, totally oblivious to the point.

People who can see more than the things in front of them are often refered to as insane. They tend to hear things they can't believe as well.

I might be insane(see my sig) but I do not believe I'm quite at your level. So please, since you know I am seeing what is in front of me and not prone to having having hallucinations, put your point where I can see them: In front of me.

Either your telling me that Imature because I think the human psyche is interresting. But noob players for instance rape do this because they have gotten the power to actually do it in an RPG (not IRL) that's the distinction between a new player and me.

It seems like the whole world is all black and white it's either way.

either you're flaming me or making a mockery of my thoughts, or telling me how bad my english is even though it's not even my primary language. or just telling me that I'm wrong because there is only one way. nothing is left open for interpretation(?)
creepwood
QUOTE (nezumi @ Jun 19 2005, 05:38 PM)
I think the part that creapwood is missing (from watching him respond to me) is:

a)  Before the crime in question, the PCs considered themselves 'good people'
b)  After the crime, they consider themselves 'perhaps compromised people'.

He was talking about putting the PCs in a place that they can sympathize with serial killers.  I suspect he means put the PCs in a place where they can justify the actions of serial killers, which would either require seriously messing with the PCs heads so that they aren't fully aware of the ramifications of the crime in question, or, more likely, the PCs are forced to commit a horrible crime to achieve a good ends.

If I'm reading that right (and creepwood can confirm or deny that), I suspect torture is a better example than rape.  Torture is usually done with another ends in mind, and so that's implied.  Rape rarely is.  So without more background information, we're forced to assume that the characters raped because they wanted to rape, not because they were using it to do something else. 

As a general rule of thumb, people don't read forums like good literature or deep movies.  We read what we're told, and if there's a deeper meaning, we need to be alerted of that ahead of time.

well not really completely correct but closer by miles than anyone else here.

what I'm also talking about is that if a person does this act, is he evil right trough the bonemarrow(?) or are there virtueous attributes in this person? Why is it that some woman (mostly) get just infatuated with serial killers they mailcorresponde with, what is it that they see that the world doesn't?

Right off the bat you would probably just right her off as a cookoocase or naive and immature. Then what's the definition of insane? I'm positive that if the worlds shrinks did diagnose every single person on this planet everyone would get atleast one case of personality disorder. either you are maybe too meticolous or too sloppy or anything else. that you're paranoid or afraid of clowns or believe in god.

what I sense is that you're just writing off things and that's the end of it.


Edit: this wasn't really jsut a reply to nezumi. Want to be my translator? wink.gif
Critias
QUOTE
But noob players for instance rape do this because they have gotten the power to actually do it in an RPG (not IRL) that's the distinction between a new player and me.


Again, there's something wrong with you. You seem to think everyone that gets into RPGs has some desire to play out rape/murder scenes, and that the only distinction that needs to be made are those who do it "just because" (a phase we're all supposed to go through, according to you, as new gamers), and those who do it for deep psychological reasons (the seasoned gamers).

The reason you're catching all this static is that the argument you're putting forth is that rape is good, and all people want to be rapists. You're saying everyone does it, they just do it for different reasons. This has nothing at all to do with a language barrier, or people from you country being more "sexually liberal" than other people (only truly barbaric societies are sexually liberal enough to consider rape an acceptable method of self expression). Rape is rape. It doesn't belong in a game except tangentially, it has no business being some experience you share with your gaming group through role play, and there's something wrong with you and all your friends if you think everyone does it.

It's not a language barrier. It's not even a Sweden/The Rest of the World barrier (I know other Swedes, for starters, but I also doubt it would somehow go wholly unnoticed for random rape/murder/pedophilia acts to be normal there). It's you putting forth "shocking for shocking's sake" arguments on a forum where people aren't interested in hearing about it. There's nothing wrong with us for not "knowing what you're getting at." There's something wrong with you, by all the signs we've seen so far, for getting at it in the first place.

You started out ridiculous because you were putting forth an argument that anyone who's effective in combat is a poor role player. You got more ridiculous (and terribly offensive) when you put forth that playing out a multiple rape/murder/child molestation scene was normal and cool, and a great way to explore the human psyche. You somehow got more ridiculous (and off topic) when you responded to someone's distaste for such a scenario by describing to them in detail some gory masturbation/disembowlment scene for no apparent reason (none but shock value). You are now amazingly ridiculous because you seem not to be able to comprehend how your attitude, and the ideas you put forth, might be offensive to others.

I'll give you a dollar if you go away. Seriously. Your posts, from start to finish (especially finish, at this point) have brought nothing positive to this place. When even I am capable of making an observation like that, there's something wrong. Please leave.
toturi
QUOTE (creepwood)
Either your telling me that Imature because I think the human psyche is interresting. But noob players for instance rape do this because they have gotten the power to actually do it in an RPG (not IRL) that's the distinction between a new player and me.

It seems like the whole world is all black and white it's either way.

either you're flaming me or making a mockery of my thoughts, or telling me how bad my english is even though it's not even my primary language. or just telling me that I'm wrong because there is only one way. nothing is left open for interpretation(?)

Unfortunately, I am still not getting your point. Due to your usage of the language, I do not understand what you are trying to say.

The game rules and mechanics certainly allows you to roleplay deviant behavior (with the condition that you should be enjoying the game). However, should you enjoy roleplaying deviant behavior such as you have stated in your examples, then you are perhaps better served by checking yourself into a mental institution.
creepwood
QUOTE (Critias)
QUOTE
But noob players for instance rape do this because they have gotten the power to actually do it in an RPG (not IRL) that's the distinction between a new player and me.


Again, there's something wrong with you. You seem to think everyone that gets into RPGs has some desire to play out rape/murder scenes, and that the only distinction that needs to be made are those who do it "just because" (a phase we're all supposed to go through, according to you, as new gamers), and those who do it for deep psychological reasons (the seasoned gamers).

The reason you're catching all this static is that the argument you're putting forth is that rape is good, and all people want to be rapists. You're saying everyone does it, they just do it for different reasons. This has nothing at all to do with a language barrier, or people from you country being more "sexually liberal" than other people (only truly barbaric societies are sexually liberal enough to consider rape an acceptable method of self expression). Rape is rape. It doesn't belong in a game except tangentially, it has no business being some experience you share with your gaming group through role play, and there's something wrong with you and all your friends if you think everyone does it.

It's not a language barrier. It's not even a Sweden/The Rest of the World barrier (I know other Swedes, for starters, but I also doubt it would somehow go wholly unnoticed for random rape/murder/pedophilia acts to be normal there). It's you putting forth "shocking for shocking's sake" arguments on a forum where people aren't interested in hearing about it. There's nothing wrong with us for not "knowing what you're getting at." There's something wrong with you, by all the signs we've seen so far, for getting at it in the first place.

You started out ridiculous because you were putting forth an argument that anyone who's effective in combat is a poor role player. You got more ridiculous (and terribly offensive) when you put forth that playing out a multiple rape/murder/child molestation scene was normal and cool, and a great way to explore the human psyche. You somehow got more ridiculous (and off topic) when you responded to someone's distaste for such a scenario by describing to them in detail some gory masturbation/disembowlment scene for no apparent reason (none but shock value). You are now amazingly ridiculous because you seem not to be able to comprehend how your attitude, and the ideas you put forth, might be offensive to others.

I'll give you a dollar if you go away. Seriously. Your posts, from start to finish (especially finish, at this point) have brought nothing positive to this place. When even I am capable of making an observation like that, there's something wrong. Please leave.

I never said that everybody wants to be a rapist. if you would have asked a rapist even in an environment before they would have commited the crime they would in most cases say that they would never rape someone.

again you're taking something and remolds it. I never ever said anything that everybody wants to be a rapist.

I never even said that every player wants to do this. I never said rape is good. I never raped anyone, never had the urge to do it either.

But who are you to say that it doesn't belong to the game unless it's in the perifier? That's your conclusion, that's YOUR view on how RPG is suppose to played.

Who are YOU to say what's right and wrong?
creepwood
QUOTE (toturi)
QUOTE (creepwood @ Jun 19 2005, 11:48 PM)
Either your telling me that Imature because I think the human psyche is interresting. But noob players for instance rape do this because they have gotten the power to actually do it in an RPG (not IRL) that's the distinction between a new player and me.

It seems like the whole world is all black and white it's either way.

either you're flaming me or making a mockery of my thoughts, or telling me how bad my english is even though it's not even my primary language. or just telling me that I'm wrong because there is only one way. nothing is left open for interpretation(?)

Unfortunately, I am still not getting your point. Due to your usage of the language, I do not understand what you are trying to say.

The game rules and mechanics certainly allows you to roleplay deviant behavior (with the condition that you should be enjoying the game). However, should you enjoy roleplaying deviant behavior such as you have stated in your examples, then you are perhaps better served by checking yourself into a mental institution.

oh my gawd.

WHY it's interessting to be substituted to 'deviant' behaviour in a game session IS to learn more about your self and society. I can't say 100% sure that I would never hurt a person physically but I never really have the urge to make it reality even. or rape and kill 2 year old twins, but by having the experience in and RPG like if you were the parents to this children, you would try to reflect the sorrow (although you would never been 100% accurate in reenacting this) you as a person would get more knowledge on how it would be to be that parent.

clear enough for you?
mfb
who are you to say what's right and wrong? you're proposing that raping kids is acceptable behavior in an RPG--by whose authority do you make that statement? do whatever the hell you want to in your games, but don't tell us we're wrong for not swallowing the juvenile bullshit you're spewing from behind the flimsy shield of "exploring the human psyche".

you're still not getting it. lots of us already went through the little phase you're going through. lots more of us never bothered with that phase, recognizing it as trite crap. you're behind us, not ahead of us.
Critias
I'm not a shining pillar of morality. I'm not even, according to many standards, a "good" person. I am, however, fairly stable when it comes to knowing what's right and wrong (even if, on inconsequential matters such as internet politeness, I give in to the little devil on my shoulder more often than listening to the little angel on my other). Despite not always doing what's right, I feel (as everyone feels) I'm fairly capable of knowing what's right.

And, to me -- and most others you'll ask -- there's no reason to role-play out a Shadowrun character raping and murdering a pair of twelve year old girls. There are other bad things a Shadowrun character can do, if you feel a strong urge to use the game as nothing but a way to explore humanity's darker side.

There are things you can do quite well simply with the rules written, things you can do very easily keeping the game on-track with the overall feel of the world as presented to us, things professional criminals do in the nature of their day-to-day busienss, that will let you be oh-so-adult and explore the darker corners of the human psyche. Please keep in mind Shadowrun is far from the greatest system (though it might have a fine setting) in which to try and "explore the human psyche." There's no built in morality or sanity rules, there's no alignment, there's no system to back you up for your little morality experiments. That's part of why it's a great game, but it's part of why it's far from the ideal game system for you to try your little "delve into the shadows of the human soul" blah blah blah horseshit. Go play WoD, where you can at least claim the system is built just for your crazy experiments in trying to see how evil you can be and still call yoruself human. If you do have to (1) try and explore morality from the other side of the right/wrong angle, and do have to (2) do so in Shadowrun, then you can (3) do so by exploring the morality of everyday Shadowrunner crap. Stealing. Killing (as part of stealing/robbing, not for no reason at all). Robbery. Kidnapping. Extortion. There's plenty of already amoral stuff Shadowrunners can do, that you can emphasise, without having to resort to playing out a double rape/pedophilia/strangulation. There's no call, or reason, to sit down with your buddies over pizza and Mt. Dew for gaming night, and then spend time playing out the rape and strangulation murder of a pair of children.

Now, because there is no reason to do so, and you claim that doing so is an acceptable (and even desirable) example of role playing, means you want to do so. Break the logic chain down, step by step. If/and/then. If it's not required and you do so then you do so for no reason than that you wish to. The next step on that logical train is "you role play out the rape and murder of innocent children because you wish to." The next logical step is "you wish to rape and murder innocent children." If you can't see how your continued argument about this suggestion of yours might cause some concern, disgust, and controversy, regardless of language barriers, you're not the brightest bulb in the sun lamp.

The fact you put it forth as an example of deep, meaningful, role play casts you in a suspicous light. The fact you, later, said (paraphrase) "a noob RP will rape people just because he can, whereas I rape in-game for deeper more meaningful reasons" is further harming your case.

(Further, the implication of your "a noob RPer rapes because ______, a seasoned RPer rapes because ________" implies heavily that all RPers rape. I find this horribly offensive, and exactly the sort of statement all the anti-RPG crowd lusts madly after as an example of why we're all multi-state murder sprees waiting to happen. Hopefully none of them come to DS and troll for quotes to put in the news.)

You are doing nothing but stirring shit up. From the get go (the initial wholly incorrect, condescending, but at least inoffensive topic of this ridiculous thread). That's called trolling. You showed up and started preaching to us how we're not role playing right, you flexed your weewee by bragging about how long you've been playing, you talked down to every single person here about our supposed role-play style.. and that was before you jumped completely off the deep end and starting posting shocking sexual/violent/disgusting situations just to try and rattle people (apparently) and show how edgy and grown-up you are.

Why are you still here? Honestly? What brought you to Dumpshock, what made you start posting, and what's making you continue to do so despite seeing that what you're trying to say (however it is you're trying to say it) isn't really a message we care to hear? Why not go to the WoD boards and preach about your brilliance and ability to confront the darkness within, blah blah blah, where everyone cares about that?
creepwood
QUOTE (mfb)
who are you to say what's right and wrong? you're proposing that raping kids is acceptable behavior in an RPG--by whose authority do you make that statement? do whatever the hell you want to in your games, but don't tell us we're wrong for not swallowing the juvenile bullshit you're spewing from behind the flimsy shield of "exploring the human psyche".

you're still not getting it. lots of us already went through the little phase you're going through. lots more of us never bothered with that phase, recognizing it as trite crap. you're behind us, not ahead of us.

and again, I think you are doing this on purpose misunderstanding. I was referring to the part where he says that 'playing the game this way is the right way'
mfb
so was i, retard. re-read what i said, re-read what you said.
creepwood
QUOTE (Critias)
I'm not a shining pillar of morality. I'm not even, according to many standards, a "good" person. I am, however, fairly stable when it comes to knowing what's right and wrong (even if, on inconsequential matters such as internet politeness, I give in to the little devil on my shoulder more often than listening to the little angel on my other). Despite not always doing what's right, I feel (as everyone feels) I'm fairly capable of knowing what's right.

And, to me -- and most others you'll ask -- there's no reason to role-play out a Shadowrun character raping and murdering a pair of twelve year old girls. There are other bad things a Shadowrun character can do, if you feel a strong urge to use the game as nothing but a way to explore humanity's darker side. There are things you can do quite well simply with the rules written, things you can do very easily keeping the game on-track with the overall feel of the world as presented to us, things professional criminals do in the nature of their day-to-day busienss, that will let you be oh-so-adult and explore the darker corners of the human psyche. There's no call, or reason, to sit down with your buddies over pizza and Mt. Dew for gaming night, and then spend time playing out the rape and strangulation murder of a pair of children. Now, because there is no reason to do so, and you claim that doing so is an acceptable (and even desirable) example of role playing, means you want to do so. Break the logic chain down, step by step. If/and/then. If it's not required and you do so then you do so for no reason than that you wish to. The next step on that logical train is "you role play out the rape and murder of innocent children because you wish to." The next logical step is "you wish to rape and murder innocent children." If you can't see how your continued argument about this suggestion of yours might cause some concern, disgust, and controversy, regardless of language barriers, you're not the brightest bulb in the sun lamp.

The fact you put it forth as an example of deep, meaningful, role play casts you in a suspicous light. The fact you, later, said (paraphrase) "a noob RP will rape people just because he can, whereas I rape in-game for deeper more meaningful reasons" is further harming your case.

(Further, the implication of your "a noob RPer rapes because ______, a seasoned RPer rapes because ________" implies heavily that all RPers rape. I find this horribly offensive, and exactly the sort of statement all the anti-RPG crowd lusts madly after as an example of why we're all multi-state murder sprees waiting to happen. Hopefully none of them come to DS and troll for quotes to put in the news.)

You are doing nothing but stirring shit up. From the get go (the initial wholly incorrect, condescending, but at least inoffensive topic of this ridiculous thread). That's called trolling. You showed up and started preaching to us how we're not role playing right, you flexed your weewee by bragging about how long you've been playing, you talked down to every single person here about our supposed role-play style.. and that was before you jumped completely off the deep end and starting posting shocking sexual/violent/disgusting situations just to try and rattle people (apparently) and show how edgy and grown-up you are.

Why are you still here?

still you are locked in the little box that the game is only meant to played one way and that's a hardboiled criminal doing the criminal stuff.

and about doing what's right and wrong. is there even a universal right and wrong?


creepwood
QUOTE (mfb)
so was i, retard. re-read what i said, re-read what you said.

again with the namecalling.
Critias
QUOTE
still you are locked in the little box that the game is only meant to played one way and that's a hardboiled criminal doing the criminal stuff.

I'm not locked in a little box, I'm playing off the system's stated strengths as well as the default style of gameplay. Shit. You don't know how I game. You don't know what I play, or how I play it. You have no idea how deep I get into my character's heads, how I do so, how often, or to what means. I bring up that Shadowrun is, by nature and default, about Shadowrunners, and you think you know how I play, what I think, and how deep/shallow a gamer I am.

QUOTE
and about doing what's right and wrong. is there even a universal right and wrong?


Go takes a Philosophy class somewhere. Those aren't questions you need to be asking (especially with any sort of seriousness) on some fucking internet message board dedicated to a cyberpunk-meets-D&D RPG.

You are amazingly off topic for this forum. I'll ask again -- why are you here?
Dawnshadow
I can honestly say that if something like that scenario ever appeared in a game I was playing in, during game time, that I would walk away and never play with that group again. It has no business in a game people are playing to enjoy themselves. Whatsoever. Least of all in a public forum.

If you're actually interested in finding out my opinions on something like that -- ask outright, somewhere else. It's a simple concept, you don't need to ruin a passtime for me to find out. Most people here I expect are the same. If you want to study morality, ethics, the nature of humanity, go take some classes. There's a proper place for it. SHADOWRUN is not it.

Critias is more than correct - your posts in this thread have contributed nothing of benefit. The only value to this entire thread is the occassional entertainment value from several of the people responding to you.
mfb
again with the being retarded. the rest of us have already looked at these things you're trying to force on us, and decided that it wasn't something we're interested in. you're the one still staring at it, fascinated, and trying to tell us how new and deep it is.
Fortune
quote=creepwood]clear enough for you? [/quote]

It was clear to most of us a long time ago. We get it!

What we are trying to tell you is that we've been there, done that (not necessarily taken to your extremes though), and just don't really give a shit. If you want to play that way, feel free. We just don't really want to hear about it in graphic detail, nor do we need you preaching to us as to how we are wrong if we don't all choose to play in the same manner as you.
creepwood
QUOTE (Dawnshadow)
I can honestly say that if something like that scenario ever appeared in a game I was playing in, during game time, that I would walk away and never play with that group again. It has no business in a game people are playing to enjoy themselves. Whatsoever. Least of all in a public forum.

If you're actually interested in finding out my opinions on something like that -- ask outright, somewhere else. It's a simple concept, you don't need to ruin a passtime for me to find out. Most people here I expect are the same. If you want to study morality, ethics, the nature of humanity, go take some classes. There's a proper place for it. SHADOWRUN is not it.

Critias is more than correct - your posts in this thread have contributed nothing of benefit. The only value to this entire thread is the occassional entertainment value from several of the people responding to you.

again, who are you to say that shadowrun is not a place to play whatever you want?


sidenote: omfg I hate when people are so closeminded to even consider that they know what IS right and what IS wrong. it's up to each individual
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Critias)
It's not even a Sweden/The Rest of the World barrier [...]

Absolutely not, and I hope we can drop that angle from the discussion. Finns and Swedes might not get along perfectly well all the time, but I would never dare claim they're any more "liberal" about involuntary sexual intercourse than any other people from a civilized Western nation.

I was half expecting him to link some Goatse-imagery, actually.
Adam
And this thread is finished. If people want to continue discussing some of the ideas raised in this thread, start a new one -- relevant to Shadowrun and without insults.
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