Cybermancy, Still the scariest drek ever, or the logical end for any cyber-sam? Options

[Mordinvan]

It doesn't need to explain. Titanium bone lacing provides a significant advantage, and you need the essence loss to offset that advantage to keep game balance.

And I'm pretty sure no matter what foreign objects you stick in your body, or what calcium phosphate coating you put on them, your body is still going to "know" it's there.

Read a few research papers about surgical implants, and try to tell me that.

[Mordinvan]

Really? So what happens if you're blood calcium level is off? The bones don't interact?

Not with the nerves directly no. They have calcium either removed from them or added to them as needed, but the nerves don't realize it. If they did people would KNOW they have osteoporosis before they break a hip. That people often learn they suffer from bone weakening diseases only after the bones have given out tells me that your nerves generally don't care about the state of your bones so long as they aren't broken or breaking something else.

[HappyDaze]

Not with the nerves directly no.

You're really changing the goalpost here. Your original statement said nothing about nerves specifically, only that bones have no interaction with the body - of which the nervous system is only a part.

[Nath]

As far as I know medecine (not a lot), bone lacing is likely to mess up with the periosteum, which has nerves, among other things.

[Stahlseele]

Yes, and no . . .
In the description it says that there's a net-weave made into/onto the bone structure on nano scale.
so technically, it would simply go between the cells and leave them alone i guess . .

[Mordinvan]

You're really changing the goalpost here. Your original statement said nothing about nerves specifically, only that bones have no interaction with the body - of which the nervous system is only a part.

Yes a titanium implant coated in calcium phosphate implanted in a bone will be invisible to the bones, the nerves and the immune system. Unless you are implanting it IN a never they won't notices its presence once the trauma of the surgery wears off.

[Mordinvan]

As far as I know medecine (not a lot), bone lacing is likely to mess up with the periosteum, which has nerves, among other things.

I don't see it, to lace the bones the titanium would have to be implanted by nanites a few molecules at a time, and as a result would be built inside the bone as the materials are carried to the work site by the blood stream. I don't see any need to interact with the periosteum at all.

[crash2029]

Well as far as I know SR is concerned with the holistic integrity of the body. The biological/medical reasons don't seem to factor as much as a loss of the spirit. While medically the augmentation of bones with titanium on a cellular level, or the replacement of a limb with a prosthesis might not damage the bosy per se, the spirit-body connection will suffer. One of the axioms in SR is that magic and tech do not get along. The spirit-body connection is a magical one, even for mundanes. Though for mundanes damage to the spirit-body connection, or aura, is not as serious as it is for the awakened, it is still important. The more amount of "unnatural" material the body contains, the more damage the aura sustains. If the body is filled with enough unnatural material the aura/spirit will be unable to maintain a presence in the body. Thus, death.

I guess what I am saying is that the farther the body is from being whole, the harder it is for the spirit to hold in to it.

[Mordinvan]

Well as far as I know SR is concerned with the holistic integrity of the body. The biological/medical reasons don't seem to factor as much as a loss of the spirit. While medically the augmentation of bones with titanium on a cellular level, or the replacement of a limb with a prosthesis might not damage the bosy per se, the spirit-body connection will suffer. One of the axioms in SR is that magic and tech do not get along. The spirit-body connection is a magical one, even for mundanes. Though for mundanes damage to the spirit-body connection, or aura, is not as serious as it is for the awakened, it is still important. The more amount of "unnatural" material the body contains, the more damage the aura sustains. If the body is filled with enough unnatural material the aura/spirit will be unable to maintain a presence in the body. Thus, death.

I guess what I am saying is that the farther the body is from being whole, the harder it is for the spirit to hold in to it.

I know that is the official explanation, my problem with it is it should make the cloning of organs and tissues impossible, as the cloned tissue by itself should be so far from the "idealized" self that the life force of the tissue should abate and leave a dead clump of carbon based matter behind. The essence system of SR does not make a great deal of sense because it doesn't have any internal consistency.

[Bobfly]

I suppose an argument could be made for Platonian idealized 'humans', idealized 'cyberarms', etc., but at a certain point I'd say you'll just have to accept that some things need to be handwaved in the interest of preserving game balance, roll with it, and suspend your disbelief.

Though of course, shrugging and going 'well, whatever' is pretty much anathema to this place, ain't it? :V

[Tanegar]

[img]http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd131/ecforumpics/catgirls.gif[/img]
physics science
comic cyberpunk role-playing game
edit: WTF, image function disabled. Make with the copypasta, already.

[Mordinvan]

I suppose an argument could be made for Platonian idealized 'humans', idealized 'cyberarms', etc., but at a certain point I'd say you'll just have to accept that some things need to be handwaved in the interest of preserving game balance, roll with it, and suspend your disbelief.

Though of course, shrugging and going 'well, whatever' is pretty much anathema to this place, ain't it? :V

I just like things which make sense, handwaving and saying "because" has never really sat well with me.

[crash2029]

I know that is the official explanation, my problem with it is it should make the cloning of organs and tissues impossible, as the cloned tissue by itself should be so far from the "idealized" self that the life force of the tissue should abate and leave a dead clump of carbon based matter behind. The essence system of SR does not make a great deal of sense because it doesn't have any internal consistency.

Hrm. That is a good point. However I offer this as counterpoint. In SR essence costs are greatly higher for cyber than bio. When bioware is installed the 'ware is basically living tissue that has been made genetically compatible with the hosts body. Thus the body is supporting a living piece of alien tissue, which is less difficult for the spirit to acclimate to than metal.

In the case of cloned organs costing no essence I put forth that like bioware, clonal organs are alive and thus less inherently stressful. Unlike bioware however, clonal tissue is 100% the same genetically as the original. There was no "tampering" or enhancement. The body was simply made whole. I would further posit that there is essence loss involved initially with the introduction of clonal tissue, but by the time the healing is complete the body has been regularly replacing dead cells and the very minor foriegn-ness has worn off, thus the body and spirit are in harmony again.

To support this theory I offer that essence loss is not permanent and refer to the revitalization treatment on p. 88 of Augmentation.

[Mordinvan]

Hrm. That is a good point. However I offer this as counterpoint. In SR essence costs are greatly higher for cyber than bio. When bioware is installed the 'ware is basically living tissue that has been made genetically compatible with the hosts body. Thus the body is supporting a living piece of alien tissue, which is less difficult for the spirit to acclimate to than metal.

In the case of cloned organs costing no essence I put forth that like bioware, clonal organs are alive and thus less inherently stressful. Unlike bioware however, clonal tissue is 100% the same genetically as the original. There was no "tampering" or enhancement. The body was simply made whole. I would further posit that there is essence loss involved initially with the introduction of clonal tissue, but by the time the healing is complete the body has been regularly replacing dead cells and the very minor foriegn-ness has worn off, thus the body and spirit are in harmony again.

To support this theory I offer that essence loss is not permanent and refer to the revitalization treatment on p. 88 of Augmentation.

Yep... so when a heart is originally cloned, and attached to a machine to 'train' it so that is grows physically strong enough to pump blood, what % of the bodies essence does it have in it? It is only a heart. The whole brain only has a small decimal worth, as a heart I'd guess even less, as its possible to have someone who is mostly their own body but with virtually no essence, having just a heart with the probes in it needed to monitor function and blood flow should have no essence and be dead.
Hence my problem with the essence system.

[Stahlseele]

Essence is only for Balance, deal with it.
Cloned Replacements don't take up any essence, if you leave them like the original, as far as i know.

[HappyDaze]

My take:

Essence is a measure of the natural flow of astral energy through a body's attached aura - think of it as magical respiration if it helps. The aura changes to adjust to foreign objects in the body, but not necessarily to loss of natural tissue (such as blood or even an organ). These changes in the aura's natural pattern reduce the flow of Essence, and if reduced significantly, can eventually destroy the aura and kill the attached body. Even if such foreign objects are removed from the body, their damage has been done and the aura is very difficult to heal. Things like cloned tissue have no effect on Essence since they match the aura's natural pattern (allowing the astral energy to flow normally), while Essence is not present in seperated fleshy components of the body, but only in the aura produced by a whole living body. Essence Drain forms a sort of 'scar tissue' on the victims aura that causes a lasting reduction in the flow of Essence.

There. That seems pretty complete to me. Now shoot some holes in it.

Note that 'aura' should probably be replaced with 'astral shadow' since it's not an active astral presence most of the time.

[Poison Shadow]

Back on topic, ignoring the essence debate:

I don't think the CZ would be the logical end-point for any sam, because of it's inherent 'wrongness'. Just as being a lich isn't the logical end for being an adventurer in That Other Game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[HappyDaze]

Just as being a lich isn't the logical end for being an adventurer in That Other Game.

According to the Arcane Power preview, Lich is now a 'logical end' for arcane characters.

[Poison Shadow]

According to the Arcane Power preview, Lich is now a 'logical end' for arcane characters.

...
I blame 4th edition. There is something inherently evil and blasphemous about mutilating your soul like that. I suspect becoming a cyberzombie is much the same. I think most people wouldn't even fathom doing that to themselves.

[HappyDaze]

I blame 4th edition. There is something inherently evil and blasphemous about mutilating your soul like that. I suspect becoming a cyberzombie is much the same. I think most people wouldn't even fathom doing that to themselves.

You can blame SR4 all you want, but here on Dumpshock, many posters make me think that the only thing that's evil and blasphemous is not cranking the min-max level to 11... and they were doing it well before 4th edition.

As for D&D, there were similar paths to power well before 4th edition. One man's mutilation is another's 'perfection of inner form'.

[darthmord]

Well as far as I know SR is concerned with the holistic integrity of the body. The biological/medical reasons don't seem to factor as much as a loss of the spirit. While medically the augmentation of bones with titanium on a cellular level, or the replacement of a limb with a prosthesis might not damage the bosy per se, the spirit-body connection will suffer. One of the axioms in SR is that magic and tech do not get along. The spirit-body connection is a magical one, even for mundanes. Though for mundanes damage to the spirit-body connection, or aura, is not as serious as it is for the awakened, it is still important. The more amount of "unnatural" material the body contains, the more damage the aura sustains. If the body is filled with enough unnatural material the aura/spirit will be unable to maintain a presence in the body. Thus, death.

I guess what I am saying is that the farther the body is from being whole, the harder it is for the spirit to hold in to it.

Which brings me to the question of... is the ambient magic level sufficiently high enough to perform a Ritual of Renaming? Thus making you as you currently are a whole person again.

[Poison Shadow]

I meant I blame D&D 4th ed, not SR4. I like SR4, even though it's the only edition I knew (I'm a SR newb)

[Stahlseele]

Which brings me to the question of... is the ambient magic level sufficiently high enough to perform a Ritual of Renaming? Thus making you as you currently are a whole person again.

No.
that will have to wait for SR5 D20

[crash2029]

Which brings me to the question of... is the ambient magic level sufficiently high enough to perform a Ritual of Renaming? Thus making you as you currently are a whole person again.

I cannot answer this as I am not familiar with the Ritual of Renaming.

Yep... so when a heart is originally cloned, and attached to a machine to 'train' it so that is grows physically strong enough to pump blood, what % of the bodies essence does it have in it? It is only a heart. The whole brain only has a small decimal worth, as a heart I'd guess even less, as its possible to have someone who is mostly their own body but with virtually no essence, having just a heart with the probes in it needed to monitor function and blood flow should have no essence and be dead.
Hence my problem with the essence system.

To answer this argument I would refer you to HappyDaze's post as I concur.

My take:

Essence is a measure of the natural flow of astral energy through a body's attached aura - think of it as magical respiration if it helps. The aura changes to adjust to foreign objects in the body, but not necessarily to loss of natural tissue (such as blood or even an organ). These changes in the aura's natural pattern reduce the flow of Essence, and if reduced significantly, can eventually destroy the aura and kill the attached body. Even if such foreign objects are removed from the body, their damage has been done and the aura is very difficult to heal. Things like cloned tissue have no effect on Essence since they match the aura's natural pattern (allowing the astral energy to flow normally), while Essence is not present in seperated fleshy components of the body, but only in the aura produced by a whole living body. Essence Drain forms a sort of 'scar tissue' on the victims aura that causes a lasting reduction in the flow of Essence.

There. That seems pretty complete to me. Now shoot some holes in it.

Note that 'aura' should probably be replaced with 'astral shadow' since it's not an active astral presence most of the time.

[Stahlseele]

Ritual of Naming is something from Earthdawn.
More magic than even most dragons can wave a stick at as of SR4 Time-Line/Mana-Level.
As far as i understood that one, it basically takes someone who's essence has been lowered to 0,01, then declares him a completely new being that is meant to be exactly as it is right now, and because of that it has not been changed in any way or kind that would justify having lower than the usual 6 points of essence. Presto, you have your body, you have your mind/memories, you have all your cyber still intact, but to universe says:"yes, that's right, this is the way it was meant to be, nobody fucked with my work, he has full essence, i am satisfied, get me a coke"