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Tanegar
I have the Cybertechnology and Man & Machine: Cyberware books, but I don't yet have Augmentation. Does the latter cover cybermancy, and if so, is that field still as scary as the stuff presented previously (especially in Cybertechnology)? Man & Machine is a little more clinical about it, chiefly due to the lack of shadowtalk; Hatchetman's first-person account on pp 62-63 of Cybertechnology frankly scares the crap out of me.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Augmentation does indeed include the rules for Cybermancy (and Full Borgs, etc)... It is a great book and is full of useful stuff.

Yes... It still scares the crap out of me (as it should)
Very Scary Stuff Indeed
Stahlseele
i actually quite like it, because i frigging HATE Magic and love cyber . .
so getting more cyber and thus getting magical resistance? love it ^^
Rasumichin
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Mar 29 2009, 11:17 PM) *
I have the Cybertechnology and Man & Machine: Cyberware books, but I don't yet have Augmentation. Does the latter cover cybermancy, and if so, is that field still as scary as the stuff presented previously (especially in Cybertechnology)? Man & Machine is a little more clinical about it, chiefly due to the lack of shadowtalk; Hatchetman's first-person account on pp 62-63 of Cybertechnology frankly scares the crap out of me.


Beyond the pale is still the scariest account of undergoing cybermancy, but Augmentation has some good -and still kinda scary- fluff on cybermancy.
I really recommend to get the book (it's one of my absolute favorites for SR4) and read the Cutting Edge chapter.
It includes some shadowtalk and a brief first-person account of a cyberzombie, as well as all the crunchy bits on how to create one and what it means to become a CZ.

Cyberzombies do have become much more stable in recent years, and the ability to create them has become more widespread as well, but there's still something horribly wrong about the whole procedure and it's consequences and Augmentation brings that point across apropriately.
Tanegar
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Mar 29 2009, 07:20 PM) *
i actually quite like it, because i frigging HATE Magic and love cyber . .
so getting more cyber and thus getting magical resistance? love it ^^

You don't find the drawbacks more than the extra edge is worth? Astral vulnerability, psychological detachment, cancer... there's a reason the section in Cybertechnology on side effects is called "Better Off Dead."
Rasumichin
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Mar 29 2009, 11:42 PM) *
You don't find the drawbacks more than the extra edge is worth? Astral vulnerability, psychological detachment, cancer... there's a reason the section in Cybertechnology on side effects is called "Better Off Dead."


Yeah, but in SR4, you actually get something for that besides being able to stuff obscene amounts of ware into your dead body.
Cyberzombies in SR4 are probably the ultimate killing machines (or, if they are cyber logicians, the ultimate thinking machines), getting the amount of their negative Essence as a modifier to all their natural attribute maximums.
And that amount can go down to as much as -6, so they can achieve quite frightening performances.

Moreover, they warp and pollute astral space around them, permanently standing at the core of a Force 4 background count, which offsets some of the drawbacks to their dual nature.

They also get a bunch of other benefits, but those mentioned above are the major ones (if you are deranged enough to call astral hazing a benefit, which i am from time to time).

It's not a procedure i'd want to undergo, but i can imagine that people who are not fully aware of the drawbacks may think differently.
And the people who plan and produce these things are complete nutjobs anyway, not to mention the cynic bastards in the boardrooms who fund these programs and would probably shit their designer pants if they ever got to meet one of the supersoldiers they are commissioning.
the_real_elwood
Admittedly, I haven't done a completely thorough reading of the SR4 cybermancy rules, but upon a first reading it seems like SR4 cybermancy is safer (relatively), than in previous editions. The biggest drawback currently has got to be the dual-natured thing. I would think that any cyberzombie would need some backup from a pretty hefty mage to take care of any astral threats. But otherwise, if your GM is willing to allow it (and you can manage to get the contacts to even get the procedure done), cybermancy seems surprisingly doable.
Degausser
Cybermancy is depicted as a crime against nature. Most mages (all mages who don't practice it, really) describe it as breaking all the laws of what should be. Technically, you are killing someone, taking their soul, enslaving it, and damning it to a horrid half-exsistance where it will never be able to feel joy, happyness, freedom, creativity, or whatever else. It is, by most accounts, the most negativly karmic (In the real sense of the word, not the XP sense of the word) act possible. Worse than genocide, mass murder, nuclear strikes.

At least, that is how it is portrayed in the books.
the_real_elwood
QUOTE (Degausser @ Mar 29 2009, 06:51 PM) *
Cybermancy is depicted as a crime against nature. Most mages (all mages who don't practice it, really) describe it as breaking all the laws of what should be. Technically, you are killing someone, taking their soul, enslaving it, and damning it to a horrid half-exsistance where it will never be able to feel joy, happyness, freedom, creativity, or whatever else. It is, by most accounts, the most negativly karmic (In the real sense of the word, not the XP sense of the word) act possible. Worse than genocide, mass murder, nuclear strikes.

At least, that is how it is portrayed in the books.


I don't know about THAT bad. Sure, some uppity mages are sure to think its the worst thing ever. But hey, if you're a cybersam and you gotta have that edge, you gotta do what you gotta do. And some mages are gonna understand that.
Rasumichin
QUOTE (the_real_elwood @ Mar 30 2009, 01:42 AM) *
Admittedly, I haven't done a completely thorough reading of the SR4 cybermancy rules, but upon a first reading it seems like SR4 cybermancy is safer (relatively), than in previous editions.


Yes, even though cyberzombies are still prone to go insane, develop cancer or something similar over time.
But the point at which they start doing so is considerably farther in the future.
Cybermancy has been around for one and a half decades and it is becoming more reliable.

QUOTE
The biggest drawback currently has got to be the dual-natured thing. I would think that any cyberzombie would need some backup from a pretty hefty mage to take care of any astral threats.


Well, there's a lot of astral threats that would rather need protection from the cyberzombie.^^
Astral Hazing is quite useful as a defense, and using insane physical attributes in astral combat does contribute considerably to safety in astral space.
The biggest possible problem are projecting mages casting from a distance out of the CZ's reach, but even in that case, the CZ is still better off than the usual dual-natured character.
the_real_elwood
QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Mar 29 2009, 06:56 PM) *
Yes, even though cyberzombies are still prone to go insane, develop cancer or something similar over time.
But the point at which they start doing so is considerably farther in the future.
Cybermancy has been around for one and a half decades and it is becoming more reliable.



Well, there's a lot of astral threats that would rather need protection from the cyberzombie.^^
Astral Hazing is quite useful as a defense, and using insane physical attributes in astral combat does contribute considerably to safety in astral space.
The biggest possible problem are projecting mages casting from a distance out of the CZ's reach, but even in that case, the CZ is still better off than the usual dual-natured character.


Yeah, I'm sure the CZ is better protected than any other dual-natured characters, but aren't they still at more of a disadvantage than a mundane character? I honestly don't know, I'm not well-versed enough in the magic rules to really know what that entails. My forte was always SR3 anyways.
Tanegar
There's a place in the "Magic and Death" chapter of Cybertechnology where two mages talking about cybermancy and its ramifications refer to "karma hazing." The implication is that it's something pretty awful that's going to come back and bite a significant portion of the Sixth World in the ass. What is it, what does it do, and when are we going to start seeing the effects?
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (the_real_elwood @ Mar 30 2009, 01:58 AM) *
Yeah, I'm sure the CZ is better protected than any other dual-natured characters, but aren't they still at more of a disadvantage than a mundane character? I honestly don't know, I'm not well-versed enough in the magic rules to really know what that entails. My forte was always SR3 anyways.

Their Astral Hazing gives them significant protection in the form of the necessary drain the attacking mage will take from casting a high force spell to get past the zombie's Background Count. Most zombies deployed by megacorps for combat roles will likely be given training that enables them to get the Magic Resistance quality at maximum rating. A zombie has their natural maximums increased for every point of negative essence they have. They can hit 16 Willpower if they are fully maxed out. Mages may find zombies impossible to affect.

Zombies may actually be capable of surviving K10, too. Doesn't that also boost your willpower?
Mr. Unpronounceable
Basically, astral hazing is pollution on the astral plane.

It functions as an force 4 aspected (except noone* can benefit from it) background count that slowly spreads from its source, and basically does bite mages in the ass. Force 4 is sufficient to reduce most of the world's mages to mundanes while they're in the area.
*well, except maybe the horrors. It may be a callback to the astral "taint" in EarthDawn.
the_real_elwood
Any effects that karma hazing has on the world as a whole, especially relative to the horrors, is just metaplot at this point. Aside from the background count rules, I doubt you'll ever see any actual game mechanics for the sixth world accumulating karma hazing.
Tanegar
It was my understanding that the Scourges were an inevitable result of rising mana levels. Is the Horrors' ability to access the material plane contingent on karma hazing, or does the hazing just make it easier and/or bring them across sooner?
Mr. Unpronounceable
Neither, really.

In EarthDawn, the astral taint was generally assumed to be a side-effect of the horror's presence...in SR terms, the horrors tailored the entire world's background count to their favor.

I could see some fluff or crunch at some point indicating that shadow spirits, shedim, and whatnot can occasionally be strengthened by a cyberzombie's astral hazing.
the_real_elwood
Kind of more on topic, if you're playing SR4, Augmentation is practically a must-have. And if you're just interested in Shadowrun stuff (even if you play SR3 but are interested in backporting some material), Augmentation has some more wizzer bleeding-edge stuff. Biodrones are interesting, and you've got some rules in there for cyborgs too. But as far as Augmentation's presentation, Cybermancy isn't quite bleeding-edge anymore (though it is still dangerous and rare).
toturi
QUOTE (the_real_elwood @ Mar 30 2009, 08:58 AM) *
Yeah, I'm sure the CZ is better protected than any other dual-natured characters, but aren't they still at more of a disadvantage than a mundane character? I honestly don't know, I'm not well-versed enough in the magic rules to really know what that entails. My forte was always SR3 anyways.

In SR4, cyberzombies are more stable (a relative term not meant to imply cyberzombies are stable people). But in SR3, I had created a CZ NPC that lasted the entire arc from the beginning of SR3 to just before SR4. If you do not push it too deeply and had the proper candidates for cybermantic procedures, you could (in SR3) get a very long lasting cyberzombie.

While I have not done a CZ for my SR4 campaign yet (something always comes up), I think a Fomori would be a good race to start from.
Adarael
Let me just say that there is nothing logical about willfully killing yourself and binding your spirit into your own dead body. wink.gif

Effective, yes. Logical? Not really, unless your motivation is "Be the biggest, baddest mofo ever, no matter what the cost." But somebody with that life goal probably isn't looking to stay alive anyway.
Stahlseele
There's allways the Hatchetman or 6 Million Dollar Man or Robocop Approach.
Allready on the brink, no real voodoo to do the Crow on you. So go get Cyber.
TheOOB
Keep in mind that cyborgs are there is you want the eternal warrior who isn't a sin against creation.

Cyborgs are supposed to be scary, and they are never supposed to be normal. Their very existence is an affront to nature, anyone who would willing become one was insane in the first place.
Stahlseele
but they are also not a sin against creation.
that is one of the big reasons to play a zombie for me ^^
the_real_elwood
QUOTE (Adarael @ Mar 29 2009, 11:28 PM) *
Let me just say that there is nothing logical about willfully killing yourself and binding your spirit into your own dead body. wink.gif

Effective, yes. Logical? Not really, unless your motivation is "Be the biggest, baddest mofo ever, no matter what the cost." But somebody with that life goal probably isn't looking to stay alive anyway.


That's called "keeping the edge", chummer.
InfinityzeN
Seriously, a CZ is *WAY* more powerful then a Cyborg. I mean, the easiest way to figure that out is that you can take a Cyborg from hell (with Essense at 0.0 flat), make him a CZ, and stuff just as much ware again into him. That's before you even get to the Astral Hazing, + natural stat caps, etc.

Has anyone ever tried building a maxed out CZ? I did and almost lost my mind. Seriously, who can pick out 20 points of Cyberware and 8 points of Bioware for a normal character with unlimited money, much less the double that (40/16) for a CZ? I don't think I could even find 56 points of ware that I want.

Then you go on to stats. For a normal human, your looking at 12(18) limits, but I'm going to use Watcher as a base [My My 800BP elf sniper]. As a -6 Essence CZ, he would have a Agility cap of 16(24)! Granted he could only get a +5 from Ware, but that is still a 16(21) Agility! And a 13(19) Reaction to go with it [Move by Wire 3 baby]. We are talking an Inititive pool in the low 30s here. Strength at 12(17), doing 12P damage unarmed [without martial arts] while tossing ~26 dice to attack. Hell, even their ability to take damage is crazy. Body of 12(13, 17 for damage) and Willpower of 12 gives a PDT of 15 and a SDT of 14 before you even count any cyberlimbs.

*Edit*
This whole post doesn't even get into just what would happen if you managed to make a CZ out of someone who already has Astral Hazing (and Nasty Vibe). I mean seriously, that is two rating 4 background counts, one with no range from the body and the other spread out. Both of which expand and corrupt all around him if he stays still too long. And if just being a CZ wasn't creepy enough, he would have Nasty Vibe on top of that.

Hummmmmm... I think I'm going to write him up and making him the big final baddy in my game.
TBRMInsanity
This may be a little off topic, but is there a way in SR4 to map the mind into a computer (essentially creating an AI). That way you technically could create a total anthroform body and put the "Ghost in the machine" into the anthroform thus bypassing Cybermancy (though the person is still technically dead).
This is similar to Johnny Mnemonic.

I tend to view Cybermancy like hard time in prison. If prison is better then where you live day to day then I can see why people would go though with it. Sometimes giving up the possibility of being of every being happy ever again is acceptable if it means you don't "suffer" as baddly as you did in the past.
Malachi
QUOTE (TBRMInsanity @ Mar 30 2009, 10:27 AM) *
This may be a little off topic, but is there a way in SR4 to map the mind into a computer (essentially creating an AI). That way you technically could create a total anthroform body and put the "Ghost in the machine" into the anthroform thus bypassing Cybermancy (though the person is still technically dead).
This is similar to Johnny Mnemonic.

That's what a cyborg is. They stick the brain in a jar and bolt it to a body of some kind. The brain spends the whole time in VR controlling the drone body.

Beyond the Pale in the Cybertechnology book is the best piece of fiction ever written in a Shadowrun sourcebook. If I ever see a copy of that book I'll buy it just for that fiction.
Neraph
It should be noted that in SR4, every month (if you fail the test [which you will be doing]) you only get 5 BP of Negative qualities. As long as you can get 10 karma/month, you can buy them off (and in so doing, "live" forever).

Someone brought this up: if you're going to do a CyberZombie, use either a Fomori (every time) or a Gnome (HA!), because of their Arcane Arrester ability. Preferably (best-case scenario), do this with an Awakened (Magician preferably), SURGE'd Fomori. SURGE will add more interesting things, and Awakened will allow him to retain spellcasting/summoning. As long as he sticks to buffs, he's got a real edge standing in the middle of his own r4 Backround Count. And if you don't think it's tailored to him, before he goes in make him Initiate once and take Geomancy.

And don't forget Posession/Inhabitation. Get a powerful enough spirit to take them over (especially one of the Tradition that the Backround Count is) and you're previously retardedly powerful character becomes even more world-breaking. Something like that could eat Cthulu for breakfast, and munch on the Horrors for snacks.

Egads, I have to make that now...
Tanegar
QUOTE (Malachi @ Mar 30 2009, 12:44 PM) *
That's what a cyborg is. They stick the brain in a jar and bolt it to a body of some kind. The brain spends the whole time in VR controlling the drone body.

How is that substantively different from a cyberzombie? Isn't that basically what Fuchi did to Hatchetman, discard his wrecked meat body and stick his brain in a full-cyber body?
Malachi
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Mar 30 2009, 11:32 AM) *
How is that substantively different from a cyberzombie? Isn't that basically what Fuchi did to Hatchetman, discard his wrecked meat body and stick his brain in a full-cyber body?

Not exactly. They just stuck so much 'ware in him that you couldn't really recognize him as "human" anymore. I don't think it was a "full-cyber" body.
Stahlseele
in a cyborg, there IS no meat aside for parts of the brain.
you can go cyberzombie with still retaining about 90% natural flesh.
MBW level4 and some Head/Eye/Sense-Ware and you are done.
Adarael
QUOTE (Neraph @ Mar 30 2009, 08:59 AM) *
Someone brought this up: if you're going to do a CyberZombie, use either a Fomori (every time) or a Gnome (HA!), because of their Arcane Arrester ability. Preferably (best-case scenario), do this with an Awakened (Magician preferably), SURGE'd Fomori. SURGE will add more interesting things, and Awakened will allow him to retain spellcasting/summoning. As long as he sticks to buffs, he's got a real edge standing in the middle of his own r4 Backround Count. And if you don't think it's tailored to him, before he goes in make him Initiate once and take Geomancy.


The obvious problem with this is that the Arcane Arrester quality will probably make an already-difficult magical ritual that much more difficult, if not outright (practically, not theoretically) impossible. Additionally, the process of cyberzombification instantly and irrevocably removes all magical ability once the target drops to Magic 0 (when they die) and before they return to Magic 1. I belive this is explicitly stated in Augmentation, actually.

QUOTE
And don't forget Posession/Inhabitation. Get a powerful enough spirit to take them over (especially one of the Tradition that the Backround Count is) and you're previously retardedly powerful character becomes even more world-breaking. Something like that could eat Cthulu for breakfast, and munch on the Horrors for snacks.


Two things on this.

One is that I don't know if it's explicitly stated or not, but given that the original spirit of the cyberzombie has been artificially bound into its own corpse, I don't think a spirit could posess the body; it's already inhabited by the spirit of the victim.
Second... Metaphysically speaking, if the spirit could kick the victim's spirit out of his body, I think the body would die right then and there due to the fact that only the binding of the orginal spirit is allowing the body to stay alive at all. Basically you'd be left with a spirit in a dead body, same as any shedim in a corpse. And that's scary, but it's not scarier than any other posession spirit.
Stahlseele
aside from the fact that other spirits do not inhabit more or less machine men O.o
TBRMInsanity
Would the Arcane Arrester quality even work after you go negative in essence? I wouldn't think so. Removing one's soul tends to remove all magical effects they had as well.
Nath
QUOTE (Degausser @ Mar 30 2009, 02:51 AM) *
Cybermancy is depicted as a crime against nature. Most mages (all mages who don't practice it, really) describe it as breaking all the laws of what should be. Technically, you are killing someone, taking their soul, enslaving it, and damning it to a horrid half-exsistance where it will never be able to feel joy, happyness, freedom, creativity, or whatever else. It is, by most accounts, the most negativly karmic (In the real sense of the word, not the XP sense of the word) act possible. Worse than genocide, mass murder, nuclear strikes.

At least, that is how it is portrayed in the books.

On the other hand, finding such cyberzombie within a black ops team, disturbs me less than a high-grade Initiate, supposedly enlightened by his mentor spirit about the very fabric of the universe and the true nature of magic.
Rasumichin
QUOTE (InfinityzeN @ Mar 30 2009, 04:16 PM) *
As a -6 Essence CZ, he would have a Agility cap of 16(24)! Granted he could only get a +5 from Ware, but that is still a 16(21) Agility!


Try customized cyberlimbs.
No need to waste precious karma on physical stats, just cyber them up all the way.
Hm...damn, i just noted that you can only customize up to the natural maximum of 16, then you have to stick with the normal cyberlimb augmentations, which are capped at 7 (how pathetic! grinbig.gif ), so you can only reach AGI 23 that way...but still, that's...kinda disturbing.

QUOTE (Adarael @ Mar 30 2009, 06:43 PM) *
One is that I don't know if it's explicitly stated or not, but given that the original spirit of the cyberzombie has been artificially bound into its own corpse, I don't think a spirit could posess the body; it's already inhabited by the spirit of the victim.


Augmentation doesn't say anything about it, but i don't think that someone who is already technically posessed is still a viable vessel for further posession attempts.
At least i hope so, it's one of the very few reasons that have kept me from using a CZ as host for an insect spirit.

QUOTE (TBRMInsanity @ Mar 30 2009, 08:19 PM) *
Would the Arcane Arrester quality even work after you go negative in essence? I wouldn't think so. Removing one's soul tends to remove all magical effects they had as well.


Cybermancy doesn't cost you any qualities besides Technomancer, you even explicitly retain magical abilities (even though you're permanently stuck with a Magic of 1).
So i don't see why one should lose the Arcane Arrester quality if you can still be a friggin' mage or adept.

The cybermantic ritual in itself wouldn't be hampered by the quality either- Arcane Arrester only affects the effects of spells and spell-like critter powers, but cybermancy is handled via Binding, there's nothing spell-like involved and so Arcane Arrester has no effect whatsoever on cybermancy.

So yes, fomori make for frightening cyberzombies indeed.
Not surprising that the top choice for tank samurai twinkage also works fine for CZs, right?
If you want the full level of cheese (we're probably talking that cheese from Sardinia which is partially eaten by maggots), use a fomori who's also a ghoul.
The stat bonusses add up to terrific levels, you're dual-natured anyway, you'll most likely have cybereyes to compensate for the blindnes and you can load up on so much ware that the lowered Essence (usually the biggest mechanical drawback for ghoul sams) doesn't matter either.

But then, no one would dare to build such a monstrosity, right?
It's not that there is any British corporation with close ties to a secret society of Infected which also has a cybermancy-capable delta clinic and the unscrupulousnes to...oh wait...better stay away from NeoNET's maximum security installations. grinbig.gif
crash2029
Cyberzombie good-merge insect spirit drop bears.
Rasumichin
QUOTE (crash2029 @ Mar 31 2009, 12:05 AM) *
Cyberzombie good-merge insect spirit drop bears.


Did i mention that the maggots in that Sardinian cheese are still alive when you eat it?
Stahlseele
Well . . there IS the Wendigo toxic Insect Shaman . .
Rasumichin
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Mar 31 2009, 12:41 AM) *
Well . . there IS the Wendigo toxic Insect Shaman . .


Admittedly, we don't know if she's toxic.
toturi
QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Mar 31 2009, 07:34 AM) *
So yes, fomori make for frightening cyberzombies indeed.
Not surprising that the top choice for tank samurai twinkage also works fine for CZs, right?
If you want the full level of cheese (we're probably talking that cheese from Sardinia which is partially eaten by maggots), use a fomori who's also a ghoul.
The stat bonusses add up to terrific levels, you're dual-natured anyway, you'll most likely have cybereyes to compensate for the blindnes and you can load up on so much ware that the lowered Essence (usually the biggest mechanical drawback for ghoul sams) doesn't matter either.

But then, no one would dare to build such a monstrosity, right?
It's not that there is any British corporation with close ties to a secret society of Infected which also has a cybermancy-capable delta clinic and the unscrupulousnes to...oh wait...better stay away from NeoNET's maximum security installations. grinbig.gif

Fomoraig Fomori CZs. Magical Guard, Arcane Arrestor, and Astral Hazing. Hard on the astral, hard on the physical(through Infection and implantation). Add an AI inhabiting the CZ's PAN... GG.

Oh now I remember... I had the idea of a CZ with a Formula pact and an AI that took over the CZ's PAN as its homenode. I remember calling it Trinity.
Tanegar
Holy crap, I don't even know what half of these builds mean. Fomori as a playable race? Gnomes? Formula pacts? AI? I really am out of the loop.

Also, maggoty Sardinian cheese for the loss. *vomit*
Degausser
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Mar 30 2009, 01:32 PM) *
How is that substantively different from a cyberzombie?



A cyberzombie and a Cyborg differ on some pretty fundamental levels.

Remember, your essence drop until you replace or add to your body. So a mage who looses his arm hasn't lost any essence until he gets a cyberarm. Functioning on this logic, removing the brain (and keeping it alive) from a body doesn't reduce essense, and adding a simrig only reduces essence by a small bit for the wires you are attaching to a brain.

A cyborg is a drone. It functions as a drone. The 'Body' has to be built from the ground up, and even in 2071, the technology for making something from scrap is still vastly inferior to what mother nature can do. Drones are clunky, and not nearly as flexible as people, no matter what those crazies in the marketing department try to tell you.

A cyberzombie, on the other hand, is still based off of improving mother nature. Leave the bits that work well and enhance the bits that don't. Lace the bones with titanium, throw in a move-by-wire system, add a cranial cyberdeck, do whatever. You are still basing everything you are doing off of the biological frame, and then trying your darndest from keeping the frame from falling apart.

Here is an example: Pretend you are a guy who is good with soldering. You have a PH.D. in Computer engineering. Now, you could try to build your own motherboard from scrap, but it would be crap because you lack a whole design team to do everything, and fabrication facilities, etc. So you can literally build your own computer from scratch, or you can get an existing top-of-the-line computer and mod the crap out of it. Both have their drawbacks. A self-built machine will never be quite as good, but if you overmod your commercial computer, it might give up the ghost and die. A homebuilt job is like a cyborg, a supermodded machine is like a cyberzombie.
InfinityzeN
That and a Cyberzombie is, well, a zombie. Or at least a greater undead in classic D&D sense. Dead body with its own spirit bound into it and forced to rise from the dead to carry on doing... stuff. More than likely ether killing huge numbers or being the biggest brain that ever brained. [You can build a CZ with a Logic of 15(18)]
Stahlseele
yes, and if you go with the idea that they can keep magical abilites, now think about what kind of drain they could combat . .
or go with high charisma cz . . voila you have put the romance back in necromance . . high intellect would mean cyber-lich basically.
Tanegar
QUOTE (Degausser @ Mar 31 2009, 03:23 AM) *
Remember, your essence drop until you replace or add to your body. So a mage who looses his arm hasn't lost any essence until he gets a cyberarm. Functioning on this logic, removing the brain (and keeping it alive) from a body doesn't reduce essense, and adding a simrig only reduces essence by a small bit for the wires you are attaching to a brain.

That makes no sense whatsoever. According to the Essence-Integrity Theory presented in Cybertechnology, Essence loss occurs when the body, or physical template, becomes different from the aura, or astral template. If the mage's aura has two arms but his body only has one, why doesn't that count as a difference? Why does the universe only say, "Sorry chummer, you just lost some mojo" only when the mage gets the missing arm replaced with a machine? The cyborg example is even more extreme: how can you have an aura for a whole body, but only a tiny part of the physical body, and not experience MASSIVE Essence loss?
the_real_elwood
QUOTE (crash2029 @ Mar 30 2009, 07:05 PM) *
Cyberzombie good-merge insect spirit drop bears.

You just had to go there and bring the drop bears into this, didn't you.
the_real_elwood
QUOTE (Degausser @ Mar 31 2009, 02:23 AM) *
A cyberzombie and a Cyborg differ on some pretty fundamental levels.

Remember, your essence drop until you replace or add to your body. So a mage who looses his arm hasn't lost any essence until he gets a cyberarm. Functioning on this logic, removing the brain (and keeping it alive) from a body doesn't reduce essense, and adding a simrig only reduces essence by a small bit for the wires you are attaching to a brain.

A cyborg is a drone. It functions as a drone. The 'Body' has to be built from the ground up, and even in 2071, the technology for making something from scrap is still vastly inferior to what mother nature can do. Drones are clunky, and not nearly as flexible as people, no matter what those crazies in the marketing department try to tell you.

A cyberzombie, on the other hand, is still based off of improving mother nature. Leave the bits that work well and enhance the bits that don't. Lace the bones with titanium, throw in a move-by-wire system, add a cranial cyberdeck, do whatever. You are still basing everything you are doing off of the biological frame, and then trying your darndest from keeping the frame from falling apart.

Here is an example: Pretend you are a guy who is good with soldering. You have a PH.D. in Computer engineering. Now, you could try to build your own motherboard from scrap, but it would be crap because you lack a whole design team to do everything, and fabrication facilities, etc. So you can literally build your own computer from scratch, or you can get an existing top-of-the-line computer and mod the crap out of it. Both have their drawbacks. A self-built machine will never be quite as good, but if you overmod your commercial computer, it might give up the ghost and die. A homebuilt job is like a cyborg, a supermodded machine is like a cyberzombie.

On a more mechanical level, a cyberzombie can still use bioware. A cyborg, not really. When all that's left of your meat body is your brain, it makes something like synthacardium pretty useless.


QUOTE (Tanegar @ Mar 31 2009, 11:17 AM) *
That makes no sense whatsoever. According to the Essence-Integrity Theory presented in Cybertechnology, Essence loss occurs when the body, or physical template, becomes different from the aura, or astral template. If the mage's aura has two arms but his body only has one, why doesn't that count as a difference? Why does the universe only say, "Sorry chummer, you just lost some mojo" only when the mage gets the missing arm replaced with a machine? The cyborg example is even more extreme: how can you have an aura for a whole body, but only a tiny part of the physical body, and not experience MASSIVE Essence loss?

Is essence loss from massive damage an optional rule now, or did SR4 completely get rid of it? Because in older editions, you could possibly lose essence from something as major as losing an arm.
Degausser
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Mar 31 2009, 12:17 PM) *
That makes no sense whatsoever. According to the Essence-Integrity Theory presented in Cybertechnology, Essence loss occurs when the body, or physical template, becomes different from the aura, or astral template. If the mage's aura has two arms but his body only has one, why doesn't that count as a difference? Why does the universe only say, "Sorry chummer, you just lost some mojo" only when the mage gets the missing arm replaced with a machine? The cyborg example is even more extreme: how can you have an aura for a whole body, but only a tiny part of the physical body, and not experience MASSIVE Essence loss?


SR4 presents a different argument, saying (simply) that you only suffer essence loss your body operates differently than mother nature intended (in a fundamental way.) A guy who looses his arm still has the rest of his body working perfectly fine, and good ol' mother nature allows for us to survive if our arm is lopped off (assuming we can stave off death from blood loss.) On the other hand, cellular damage from a vampire attack, biochemical changes from substance abuse, or wiring your neurons to bits of metal screw the system up pretty bad. This all leads to essence loss. At least, that was always my understanding.
Neraph
QUOTE (the_real_elwood @ Mar 31 2009, 10:39 AM) *
Is essence loss from massive damage an optional rule now, or did SR4 completely get rid of it? Because in older editions, you could possibly lose essence from something as major as losing an arm.

Optional damage rules in Augmentation. It's still possible.
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