Cybermancy, Still the scariest drek ever, or the logical end for any cyber-sam? Options

[Tanegar]

I have the Cybertechnology and Man & Machine: Cyberware books, but I don't yet have Augmentation. Does the latter cover cybermancy, and if so, is that field still as scary as the stuff presented previously (especially in Cybertechnology)? Man & Machine is a little more clinical about it, chiefly due to the lack of shadowtalk; Hatchetman's first-person account on pp 62-63 of Cybertechnology frankly scares the crap out of me.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Augmentation does indeed include the rules for Cybermancy (and Full Borgs, etc)... It is a great book and is full of useful stuff.

Yes... It still scares the crap out of me (as it should)
Very Scary Stuff Indeed

[Stahlseele]

i actually quite like it, because i frigging HATE Magic and love cyber . .
so getting more cyber and thus getting magical resistance? love it ^^

[Rasumichin]

I have the Cybertechnology and Man & Machine: Cyberware books, but I don't yet have Augmentation. Does the latter cover cybermancy, and if so, is that field still as scary as the stuff presented previously (especially in Cybertechnology)? Man & Machine is a little more clinical about it, chiefly due to the lack of shadowtalk; Hatchetman's first-person account on pp 62-63 of Cybertechnology frankly scares the crap out of me.

Beyond the pale is still the scariest account of undergoing cybermancy, but Augmentation has some good -and still kinda scary- fluff on cybermancy.
I really recommend to get the book (it's one of my absolute favorites for SR4) and read the Cutting Edge chapter.
It includes some shadowtalk and a brief first-person account of a cyberzombie, as well as all the crunchy bits on how to create one and what it means to become a CZ.

Cyberzombies do have become much more stable in recent years, and the ability to create them has become more widespread as well, but there's still something horribly wrong about the whole procedure and it's consequences and Augmentation brings that point across apropriately.

[Tanegar]

i actually quite like it, because i frigging HATE Magic and love cyber . .
so getting more cyber and thus getting magical resistance? love it ^^

You don't find the drawbacks more than the extra edge is worth? Astral vulnerability, psychological detachment, cancer... there's a reason the section in Cybertechnology on side effects is called "Better Off Dead."

[Rasumichin]

You don't find the drawbacks more than the extra edge is worth? Astral vulnerability, psychological detachment, cancer... there's a reason the section in Cybertechnology on side effects is called "Better Off Dead."

Yeah, but in SR4, you actually get something for that besides being able to stuff obscene amounts of ware into your dead body.
Cyberzombies in SR4 are probably the ultimate killing machines (or, if they are cyber logicians, the ultimate thinking machines), getting the amount of their negative Essence as a modifier to all their natural attribute maximums.
And that amount can go down to as much as -6, so they can achieve quite frightening performances.

Moreover, they warp and pollute astral space around them, permanently standing at the core of a Force 4 background count, which offsets some of the drawbacks to their dual nature.

They also get a bunch of other benefits, but those mentioned above are the major ones (if you are deranged enough to call astral hazing a benefit, which i am from time to time).

It's not a procedure i'd want to undergo, but i can imagine that people who are not fully aware of the drawbacks may think differently.
And the people who plan and produce these things are complete nutjobs anyway, not to mention the cynic bastards in the boardrooms who fund these programs and would probably shit their designer pants if they ever got to meet one of the supersoldiers they are commissioning.

[the_real_elwood]

Admittedly, I haven't done a completely thorough reading of the SR4 cybermancy rules, but upon a first reading it seems like SR4 cybermancy is safer (relatively), than in previous editions. The biggest drawback currently has got to be the dual-natured thing. I would think that any cyberzombie would need some backup from a pretty hefty mage to take care of any astral threats. But otherwise, if your GM is willing to allow it (and you can manage to get the contacts to even get the procedure done), cybermancy seems surprisingly doable.

[Degausser]

Cybermancy is depicted as a crime against nature. Most mages (all mages who don't practice it, really) describe it as breaking all the laws of what should be. Technically, you are killing someone, taking their soul, enslaving it, and damning it to a horrid half-exsistance where it will never be able to feel joy, happyness, freedom, creativity, or whatever else. It is, by most accounts, the most negativly karmic (In the real sense of the word, not the XP sense of the word) act possible. Worse than genocide, mass murder, nuclear strikes.

At least, that is how it is portrayed in the books.

[the_real_elwood]

Cybermancy is depicted as a crime against nature. Most mages (all mages who don't practice it, really) describe it as breaking all the laws of what should be. Technically, you are killing someone, taking their soul, enslaving it, and damning it to a horrid half-exsistance where it will never be able to feel joy, happyness, freedom, creativity, or whatever else. It is, by most accounts, the most negativly karmic (In the real sense of the word, not the XP sense of the word) act possible. Worse than genocide, mass murder, nuclear strikes.

At least, that is how it is portrayed in the books.

I don't know about THAT bad. Sure, some uppity mages are sure to think its the worst thing ever. But hey, if you're a cybersam and you gotta have that edge, you gotta do what you gotta do. And some mages are gonna understand that.

[Rasumichin]

Admittedly, I haven't done a completely thorough reading of the SR4 cybermancy rules, but upon a first reading it seems like SR4 cybermancy is safer (relatively), than in previous editions.

Yes, even though cyberzombies are still prone to go insane, develop cancer or something similar over time.
But the point at which they start doing so is considerably farther in the future.
Cybermancy has been around for one and a half decades and it is becoming more reliable.

The biggest drawback currently has got to be the dual-natured thing. I would think that any cyberzombie would need some backup from a pretty hefty mage to take care of any astral threats.

Well, there's a lot of astral threats that would rather need protection from the cyberzombie.^^
Astral Hazing is quite useful as a defense, and using insane physical attributes in astral combat does contribute considerably to safety in astral space.
The biggest possible problem are projecting mages casting from a distance out of the CZ's reach, but even in that case, the CZ is still better off than the usual dual-natured character.

[the_real_elwood]

Yes, even though cyberzombies are still prone to go insane, develop cancer or something similar over time.
But the point at which they start doing so is considerably farther in the future.
Cybermancy has been around for one and a half decades and it is becoming more reliable.



Well, there's a lot of astral threats that would rather need protection from the cyberzombie.^^
Astral Hazing is quite useful as a defense, and using insane physical attributes in astral combat does contribute considerably to safety in astral space.
The biggest possible problem are projecting mages casting from a distance out of the CZ's reach, but even in that case, the CZ is still better off than the usual dual-natured character.

Yeah, I'm sure the CZ is better protected than any other dual-natured characters, but aren't they still at more of a disadvantage than a mundane character? I honestly don't know, I'm not well-versed enough in the magic rules to really know what that entails. My forte was always SR3 anyways.

[Tanegar]

There's a place in the "Magic and Death" chapter of Cybertechnology where two mages talking about cybermancy and its ramifications refer to "karma hazing." The implication is that it's something pretty awful that's going to come back and bite a significant portion of the Sixth World in the ass. What is it, what does it do, and when are we going to start seeing the effects?

[Heath Robinson]

Yeah, I'm sure the CZ is better protected than any other dual-natured characters, but aren't they still at more of a disadvantage than a mundane character? I honestly don't know, I'm not well-versed enough in the magic rules to really know what that entails. My forte was always SR3 anyways.

Their Astral Hazing gives them significant protection in the form of the necessary drain the attacking mage will take from casting a high force spell to get past the zombie's Background Count. Most zombies deployed by megacorps for combat roles will likely be given training that enables them to get the Magic Resistance quality at maximum rating. A zombie has their natural maximums increased for every point of negative essence they have. They can hit 16 Willpower if they are fully maxed out. Mages may find zombies impossible to affect.

Zombies may actually be capable of surviving K10, too. Doesn't that also boost your willpower?

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

Basically, astral hazing is pollution on the astral plane.

It functions as an force 4 aspected (except noone* can benefit from it) background count that slowly spreads from its source, and basically does bite mages in the ass. Force 4 is sufficient to reduce most of the world's mages to mundanes while they're in the area.
*well, except maybe the horrors. It may be a callback to the astral "taint" in EarthDawn.

[the_real_elwood]

Any effects that karma hazing has on the world as a whole, especially relative to the horrors, is just metaplot at this point. Aside from the background count rules, I doubt you'll ever see any actual game mechanics for the sixth world accumulating karma hazing.

[Tanegar]

It was my understanding that the Scourges were an inevitable result of rising mana levels. Is the Horrors' ability to access the material plane contingent on karma hazing, or does the hazing just make it easier and/or bring them across sooner?

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

Neither, really.

In EarthDawn, the astral taint was generally assumed to be a side-effect of the horror's presence...in SR terms, the horrors tailored the entire world's background count to their favor.

I could see some fluff or crunch at some point indicating that shadow spirits, shedim, and whatnot can occasionally be strengthened by a cyberzombie's astral hazing.

[the_real_elwood]

Kind of more on topic, if you're playing SR4, Augmentation is practically a must-have. And if you're just interested in Shadowrun stuff (even if you play SR3 but are interested in backporting some material), Augmentation has some more wizzer bleeding-edge stuff. Biodrones are interesting, and you've got some rules in there for cyborgs too. But as far as Augmentation's presentation, Cybermancy isn't quite bleeding-edge anymore (though it is still dangerous and rare).

[toturi]

Yeah, I'm sure the CZ is better protected than any other dual-natured characters, but aren't they still at more of a disadvantage than a mundane character? I honestly don't know, I'm not well-versed enough in the magic rules to really know what that entails. My forte was always SR3 anyways.

In SR4, cyberzombies are more stable (a relative term not meant to imply cyberzombies are stable people). But in SR3, I had created a CZ NPC that lasted the entire arc from the beginning of SR3 to just before SR4. If you do not push it too deeply and had the proper candidates for cybermantic procedures, you could (in SR3) get a very long lasting cyberzombie.

While I have not done a CZ for my SR4 campaign yet (something always comes up), I think a Fomori would be a good race to start from.

[Adarael]

Let me just say that there is nothing logical about willfully killing yourself and binding your spirit into your own dead body. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Effective, yes. Logical? Not really, unless your motivation is "Be the biggest, baddest mofo ever, no matter what the cost." But somebody with that life goal probably isn't looking to stay alive anyway.

[Stahlseele]

There's allways the Hatchetman or 6 Million Dollar Man or Robocop Approach.
Allready on the brink, no real voodoo to do the Crow on you. So go get Cyber.

[TheOOB]

Keep in mind that cyborgs are there is you want the eternal warrior who isn't a sin against creation.

Cyborgs are supposed to be scary, and they are never supposed to be normal. Their very existence is an affront to nature, anyone who would willing become one was insane in the first place.

[Stahlseele]

but they are also not a sin against creation.
that is one of the big reasons to play a zombie for me ^^

[the_real_elwood]

Let me just say that there is nothing logical about willfully killing yourself and binding your spirit into your own dead body. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Effective, yes. Logical? Not really, unless your motivation is "Be the biggest, baddest mofo ever, no matter what the cost." But somebody with that life goal probably isn't looking to stay alive anyway.

That's called "keeping the edge", chummer.

[InfinityzeN]

Seriously, a CZ is *WAY* more powerful then a Cyborg. I mean, the easiest way to figure that out is that you can take a Cyborg from hell (with Essense at 0.0 flat), make him a CZ, and stuff just as much ware again into him. That's before you even get to the Astral Hazing, + natural stat caps, etc.

Has anyone ever tried building a maxed out CZ? I did and almost lost my mind. Seriously, who can pick out 20 points of Cyberware and 8 points of Bioware for a normal character with unlimited money, much less the double that (40/16) for a CZ? I don't think I could even find 56 points of ware that I want.

Then you go on to stats. For a normal human, your looking at 12(18) limits, but I'm going to use Watcher as a base [My My 800BP elf sniper]. As a -6 Essence CZ, he would have a Agility cap of 16(24)! Granted he could only get a +5 from Ware, but that is still a 16(21) Agility! And a 13(19) Reaction to go with it [Move by Wire 3 baby]. We are talking an Inititive pool in the low 30s here. Strength at 12(17), doing 12P damage unarmed [without martial arts] while tossing ~26 dice to attack. Hell, even their ability to take damage is crazy. Body of 12(13, 17 for damage) and Willpower of 12 gives a PDT of 15 and a SDT of 14 before you even count any cyberlimbs.

*Edit*
This whole post doesn't even get into just what would happen if you managed to make a CZ out of someone who already has Astral Hazing (and Nasty Vibe). I mean seriously, that is two rating 4 background counts, one with no range from the body and the other spread out. Both of which expand and corrupt all around him if he stays still too long. And if just being a CZ wasn't creepy enough, he would have Nasty Vibe on top of that.

Hummmmmm... I think I'm going to write him up and making him the big final baddy in my game.