Doesn't Pres Dunk's spirit possess the CZ Burnout after the explosion? Thought I'd heard something about that. It would support the idea that a CZ could be possessed by another entity. I'm not clear if that would result in a dual-personality, constantly fighting for control of the body, or a merge, with the possessing spirit gaining access to the host's knowledge and abilities.

It was a free spirit, he did not know who he was at the time.
And he got caught by the same net of magics that was supposed to hold the bit of aura in, that a cyberzombie has left.
Then he learned to communicate with the original Ghost in the Shell.
Then they basically became a Good-Merge and he remembered who he used to be.
Fused his Dragonheart onto his left hand and started patrolling the metaplanes to harass the Enemy.

And novels are not to be taken literally, especially when it comes to things like these.
Rules are Rules are Crunch, Fluff is Fluff stays Fluff.
Those two more often than not to clash with each other.

What are you guys talking about? And where can I find this fiction?

Even when the fluff in question comes from a rules supplement?

There is no rules suppliment that indicates Dunkelzahn's spirit -or any other spirit - posessed a cyberzombie named Burnout.

And, to second Stahlseele's commentary: often, trying to reconcile occurances from game novels with the actual game rules results in impossibilities. I personally hold to the belief that if it doesn't appear in a rulebook, it's really not worth contemplating as having in-game weight. This is due to the sheer wankery, idiocy, and rule-breaking that's gone on in so many of the novels.

My poor memory is showing, but I thought I remember there being something in one of the old magic books (SM? MitS?) that talked about the possibility of a projecting mage or spirit being sucked into a CZ and being unable to leave. Am I imagining things?

Dragonheart trilogy...

I seem to recall that as well, but I think it was discussing the possibility of getting 'tangled' with the empty body due to the localized Karma Hazing - they didn't mean in terms of posession, but more like a fly stuck to flypaper. My bet is on Magic in the Shadows. Though possibly it was shadowtalk from a SOTA book.

Wait, what? Link?

Actually, I was referring to the Essence-integrity theory from Cybertechnology. It's presented as fluff, but it makes sense to me and, if I were the GM in a game where this question came up, I would rule that it is the loss of a limb which incurs Essence loss, rather than necessarily the replacement of a limb.

Ahh, I thought the question was in reference to Dunkelzahn and Burnout.

Your interpretation of the Essence-integrity theory is fine, but I would pose to you this question, then: if the LOSS of the limb is what causes essence loss, then why do clonal replacements have no essence cost? And furthermore, does that mean an appendectomy or other surgical proceedure designed to remove generally useless bits also cost essence? How about liposuction?

I'm not saying you're wrong, and in fact I think in terms of simple rules of thumb, it's more logical to lose essence with body mass than when you bolt something on. I'm just raising the natural questions that'd come to my mind.

The point of this topic was "Is cyberzombieism the logical end for any street sam," and I would have to say . . . NO! Cyberzombies have a shelf life of (maximum) five years and loose all motivation for living. In addition they have severe psychological problems. No thank you, I would rather run low-level runs for a few years and retire, because I would still be able to smell the roses and have a good time, laugh, cry, have fun, hang out in a bar. I know some guys on the boards are all about the crunch, but I can see no RP reason to voluntarily become a cyberzombie.

I would tend to rule that a cloned replacement limb would restore the Essence lost with the original limb, since you're bringing the physical template back into line with the astral. Moreover, in the case of alpha-grade cyberlimbs and better, I would rule that high-grade cyberlimbs restore Essence equal to the difference between the limb's standard Essence cost and its grade-reduced cost; i.e., losing an arm would cost 1 Essence, and replacing it with an alpha-grade cyberarm would restore 0.2 Essence (1 - 0.8 = 0.2). In the case of appendectomy, liposuction and other elective procedures, I would sacrifice logical consistency in favor of fun by ruling that such surgeries incur no Essence loss by reason of GM fiat.

Augmentation claims that TransysNeuronet, British doubleA biotech corporation, learned cybermancy from the Ordo Maximus, an order of Hermetics including a number of vampires, known for it's highly illegal experimentation to create enhanced versions of various Infected.
NeoNET is said to have inherited Transys lock, stock n barrel in the SR4 BBB.

Now, if you're a sadistic GM, it is quite likely that you put two and two together and decide that research of known cybermancers who are also working on their own brand of superinfected could lead to attempts to create ghoul CZ...and that it is not entirely unlikely that this research is going on in the top-secret delta clinics of NeoNET now.



No RP reason?
There may be few, but none?

Basically, it boils down to three kinds of possible subjects : those who have nothing left to lose (terminally ill patients, severely injured persons such as good old Hatchetman), those who mistakenly believe they will fare better than previous subjects (augmentation addicts may be very prone to this) and people who where -probably willfully- misinformed about potential risks.
Cybermancy is still almost an urban legend to some, it would be far-fetched that everybody who has the option to undergo the procedure knows as much about potential risks as we do.
And given the harsh perspectives people in the sixth world are often faced with, do you really think every possible subject will care about what's happening to them several years down the road (and more than five years, Augmentation explicitly states that there are CZs who are still kicking around after 10 years in service)?

Besides, even if it may seem undesirable for the subject to undergo cybermancy, every megacorp would think otherwise, as cyberzombies are highly valuable soldiers, researchers and so on.
Do you really think corporations such as Aztechnology, Saeder-Krupp or NeoNET would care about the long-term life expectancy of cybermantic subjects, given the potential short-term gains?
These are the kind of people who are mostly concerned with the in-game equivalent of number crunching, in accquiring the most capable employees to give them an edge over the competition.
And you don't get higher performances than from a cyberzombie.
Do you have any idea what it would mean to a corp to have access to a researcher with the abilities of a fully twinked-out cyberlogician?

Given that perspective, don't you think they'll just try it out and forget about potential side-effects, pressuring potential subjects into the procedure by whatever means possible?
In a world where researchers are regularly -and sometimes unwillingly- abducted from their employers?

Not quite exactly and despite my intense dislike of that particular rule, it is my duty as Chief-Canon/RAW-Pain-In-the-Ass to point it out here.

It is RAW in one of the earlier editions that a spirit or projecting mage / shaman that attempts to possess a CZ gets stuck due to the magic that is used to keep the CZ's spirit bound to it.

It also said in the same section the same ritual that bound the CZ's spirit can be used to cleanse / banish / remove any extra spirits stuck inside the CZ.

I want to say it was in Man & Machine or Cybertechnology. Have to refer to my books after getting home.

It's in M&M. I couldn't find it in Cybertechnology.

As for the Ordo and experimenting on HMHVV and Cyber-Ware and maybe even Cyberzombies:
Terminus Experiment. Yes, it's a Novel. Yes, it's pretty horrible Trash, including lesbian stripper ninja.
But it's also entertaining Trash, if you can resist the urge to simply do away with it all ^^

I think for the vast majority of street sams, becoming a cyberzombie isn't the logical end of their progression. But if you continue to run the shadows indefinitely, at some point the street sam will reach the limit of the augmentations and gear he can get. And at that point, if he intends to keep running and keep his edge, the next step is cyberzombie. I don't think many runners would make that step, but there's more than a couple crazy fraggers out there that would.

hmm . . anybody got the really exact wording on cyborgs and essence?
cyber down to 0,01 essence, get cyborg treatment done, get up to . . what? 0,2 essence? O.o

And a few who figure they'll turn out better then the last sod who did the procedure, as its getting better all the time.

"Better" in the sense of being more survivable and having fewer side effects; you're still basically an indentured slave to the corp that did the work.

Even though i completely agree with the last point, one should keep in mind that runners who can afford delta-grade surgery can stuff completely insane amounts of ware into their bodies.
More than enough to keep their edge as long as they stick to jobs they can handle.
Still, for some people, that's not enough.
Once you go down the road to become a superhuman urban predator, it may be hard to know when to stop.
And yes, the final step in the personal augmentation process is becoming a cyberzombie, it doesn't get more superhuman than that, at least for mundanes.

So it's certainly a choice for some.
Though not the logical end for most street sams.
I assume that the logical end for most street sams is either an untimely death caused by a hail of bullets from a corporate fast response strike team or serving a life sentence in a maximum security prison.
For those tough, lucky and smart enough to make it, there's still the perspective of retirement or taking up another career in the shadow community, the corporate world or among the syndicates.
But Hatchetman was neither the first nor the last CZ to walk the sixth world.
In a scene of people more than willing to trade in their humanity for being just a little bit better at killing others, there'll always be individuals who won't think twice about the side effects of cybermancy.

If I were going to the route of the cyberzombie, I wouldn't stop at low end negative essence. I'd be pushing the max (-6). I'd also want Biocompatibility, a high Edge score and hand pick the surgeon responsible and making sure he/she is throwing around no less than 20 dice on an implant roll.

Oh and I'm not even touching the corrupted magicians that are responsible for the rest... *shudder*.

- J.

Looking at the expense, risks, life expectancy, loss of freedom, and even loss of personal identity that's involved in becoming a CZ, I doubt many street sams choose to become one without other pressures. I'd imagine it would happen more often like it did with Hatchetman, where the corp decides it's in their best interest, not yours.

The follow-up question would be whether cybermancy would be a cost-effective use of resources for them. CZs have some great abilities, but I'm not sure that those abilities outweigh the extreme expenses - you could keep a whole team of runners on tap for the same cost. What can a CZ accomplish that a large team of high-level runners can't do?

Well, if it is a CZ researcher, get a Logic of 15(18) + massive bonus dice, an Intuition of 12 + massive bonus dice, and a Willpower of 12 (13 for a Dwarf). Use them to make the breakthroughs, then have to normal guys work the details.

Nothing in particular, I think.

Fit into a single cardbox.

SNAKE? SNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKKEEEE?!

Congratulations, sir! You have won the Internet!

Slightly off-topic, but no. Your essence is still 0.01, you only have an essence hole that is 0.19 big. Remember that essence doesn't come back - only leaves the hole. Unless you start some of the fancy treatments in Augmentation.

Ah, yes, okay . .
still a bit cheesy neh? ^^

Can anyone tell me where the tale of Hatchetman is located? I have seen references to it but no specific book.

Cybertechnology, from SR2 days

Cybermancy is one of those scary-yet-fascinating reads. Like that messy vehicular accedent that you know will make you sick to your stomach if you look, but you can't help looking.

The conversation has kind of strayed from the topic, but I wanted to offer my 2 cents.

I always had the impression that in SR, essence isn't so much the integrity of your body/spirit. But the purity. Especially with the introduction of BioWare which isn't artificial (meaning mechanical parts), but vat grown human muscle, tendons, or nerve tissue. Foreign objects like those get in the way of your energy/chi/spirit and those make you less human. That is why delta-grade implants don't cost as much essence, because they get in the way less.

Another way I like to think about it is the whole "Phantom Limb" phenomenon. When the human body loses a limb or eyes or what not, the brain rewires the sections of the brain that use to control the lost limb so that the brain cells aren't just taking up space. Sometimes the signals are still interpreted as the missing limb. In the same way, if you get implants that you control with your mind, the brain has to rewire to allow for this control, so you lose just a little control of everything else. If you have too much 'ware your brain starts to loss the power to control magic, and because of the lost control there is a limit to what the brain can handle before it can't keep the body alive...... and thats where cyberzombies start coming in.

Thank you.

Damn. That is one of the best hypotheses concerning essence loss, augmentation, and cybermancy I have ever read. Definite kudos to you.

I like it too, but it doesn't explain why titanium bone lacing which is utterly invisible to the nervous system would cause essence loss.

Sure that it is invisible? I always thought that our bones do interact with the nervous system and be it just to "report damage".

The bones themselves don't do squat to interact with the rest of your body.
they just carry the load. Same as with your teeth, they don't interact with you either.
The Bone marrow/Nerves in your teeth? now that's another story all together . .
The Bone Marrow does produce new blood cells, which is kinda vital to your wellbeing.

Just on the topic of whether cyberzombies are "the scariest drek ever":
They are when your runners arent expecting one and they are being created by toxic mages in a nuclear power station

Too bad the lacing is at a molecular level, and if done correctly with a calcium phosphate coating would just be treated as more bone by the rest of your bones.

It doesn't need to explain. Titanium bone lacing provides a significant advantage, and you need the essence loss to offset that advantage to keep game balance.

And I'm pretty sure no matter what foreign objects you stick in your body, or what calcium phosphate coating you put on them, your body is still going to "know" it's there.

Of course it will. Your body also uses the skeletal structure to run nerves ALONG. Point in case, look at your elbows and wrists. Your nerves run in channels (typically referred to as 'tunnels') through those joints. They are called Carpal Tunnels and Cubital Tunnels, hence the symdromes' names.

Applying any sort of material reinforcement to the bones is likely to interfere with the natural layout of those nerves, even if it is to just relocate the nerve to another location (which I've had an Ulnar Nerve Transposition performed to mitigate the effects of Cubital Tunnel Syndrome).

Hence the Essence Loss from Bone Lacing does make sense. The amount of Essence Loss... that can be debated IMO.

No it really can't.
Essence is purely balancing.

Yeah, my explanation isn't perfect. No explanation is going to be perfect.

My explanation doesn't cover why a cyberlimb would have an essence cost, since it replaces the whole limb there wouldn't be any additional strain on the nerves system. Though you could say that the nerves being cut off and having to be rewired to the cyberlimb is the cost of essence. But bonelacing and some of the other implants but I still like my explanation.

Aren't there optional rules that reduce the essence cost of some things like bone lacing depending on how many (if any) cyberlimbs a character has? To account for the fact that part of the body is already replaced, and the bone lacing doesn't need to be implemented there? Maybe it was just some houserules I saw somewhere, but it seemed like a pretty decent idea to me.

In SR3 there were such rules, in SR4 none.

Really? So what happens if you're blood calcium level is off? The bones don't interact?