 Brand name firearms, do you play around with them? |
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 May 24 2004, 12:44 PM
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#101
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752  |
doubt it, when is the last time two western militaries faced off against one another? as long as the pistol cartridge people are using works against the average grunts of the third world militaries it will not be obsolete. the CRISAT redteam bodyarmor standard that we're working against is kind of obsolete in my opinion. (NATO CRISAT Target: 1.6mm of titanium and 20 layers of Kevlar at 50 meters) this is a NATO standard thats supposed to represent the body armor capabilities of our enemies which might have made sense in the cold war but as far as i'm concerned they should unofficially revise it to a thick turban "helmet" and 10 layers of islamic cleric's robes. thats just what is seems like to me, do the Chinese PLA issue body armor? North Korea? Iran? as much as other european and other western nations piss america off i seriously doubt there will not be a war between our countries. |
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May 24 2004, 02:07 PM
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#102
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
1945? Just as long ago as the last time a western army fought Russia. The last time a western military fought China was, what, 1953? I can't think of a time that westeners have fought Iran, and it seems extremely unlikely that you will. Same for North Korea -- if you want to prepare for a fight against them, you'll just need to get your missile protection systems into gear. Yes, many of the possible future OpFors of western militaries don't have much in the way of personal armor, nor will they have very soon. But the ones you mentioned are the most likely ones to soon have body armor, once the current technology starts to become old and they can start buying full suits of soft body armor from criminals in South America. You can currently see armored vests on soldiers and policemen in large parts of Africa, the Caribbean, South America and Asia. Obviously it cannot be too expensive or hard to get just about anywhere in the world. Any possible threat country, if it can expect a war some time in advance, could easily equip a sizeable part of its army with body armor. Once the kind of full protection I discussed has become as commonplace in the West as armored vests are now, they'll start popping up all over the world as well. And there are special requirements. A small group of terrorists, special operatives, or a similar strike force is more effective to equip with body armor. Armies don't have to deal with criminals, but the police do, and I'm pretty sure the boys in blue wouldn't mind a handgun that can both penetrate soft body armor and create a wound cavity a bit more significant than a 5.7x28 or the .224 BOZ. If they can design such weapons, special operations units might as well adopt them. |
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May 24 2004, 08:19 PM
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#103
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
the FN FiveseveN has been available to US Police forces for a while now and i know of no police force that has adopted it standard issue, maybe a few swat units have one or two as a prestidge thing pistols aren't too important for swat units.
if it can't even meet the 9mm FMJ standard subcalibres will remain a european fantasy. pay attention to FNs name for 5.7x28mm, it's SS190 (similar to the NATO standard SS109 5.56x45mm, trying to imply that this will be the next NATO standard pistol cartridge by giving it a name meant to be confused with an existing standard). maybe the problem is that a lot of these necked down penetrating cartridges are designed by recoil sensitive europeans. the HK PDW doesn't make sense in that it has a powerful miniturized G36 gas-operated action yet fires a underpowered cartridge that could just as easily be used in a blow-back design. these are the PDW cartridges i've heard about: 5.7x28mm (Fabrique Nationale) 4.6x30mm (Heckler & Koch) .22 Colt SCAMP 6.5x25mm CBJ (Saab-Bofors) 9x19mm necked down, only needs a barrel conversion .224BOZ (Civil Defence Supply) .224VOB/5.56x23.5mm (Tuma MTE) 7.62x25mm Tokarev necked 7.82Sx24 (Leitner-Wise) 9x30 Russian GROM (for the Gepard SMG/PDW) they all pretty much suck except for the GROM (perhaps Leitner-Wise) but it's a much more conventional cartridge, the russians have so many great designs like the GROM and AN-94 that they can't really make in scale because of their economy. the one made by Leitner-Wise is a 10mm necked down AND using a saboted 5.56mm bullet, allowing the possibility to quickly change to a larger 30cal projectile (similar to the versatility you were talking about). |
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May 24 2004, 08:43 PM
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#104
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Hey, don't start with me, I've never fired anything smaller than 7.62. I am absolutely not infatuated by small calibers. I am very much aware of the problems of such extremely small projectiles, and that is why I'm looking for a possibility of firing effective AP ammunition out of a gun that can just as well fire something larger against unarmored targets. I found a site claiming the 9x30 "High Impulse Armor Piercing" ammo to penetrate level IV armor at 450 meters. On the other hand, the same table claims that 9mmP rounds can penetrate level IV armor at 70 meters, so apparently they are talking about something completely different or are totally clueless. If you can get a 10x25, .40S&W or .45ACP pistol to reliably penetrate NIJ level III armor at at least 50 meters and remain lethal through it, it doesn't have to be a SLAP just because that's what I originally asked about. However, all that I've read about the penetration performance of Russian pistols and SMGs is generally either BS or not that impressive. And the only large caliber armor piercing rounds that I'm aware of are Russian (they seem to like the number 9...). So until I can get some data on them that I know I can trust, I'm a bit sceptical. |
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May 25 2004, 12:05 AM
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#105
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
@ Snow Fox,
You m'lady, have my undying respect. @ Raygun, Austere, and Otomik, reading you guys talk is like listening to three astro physicist. You have no idea what they are saying, but your sure they are absolute geniuses. You guys should write a book. "Theoretical firearms and there applications in fictional worlds" I would buy it. |
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May 25 2004, 09:17 PM
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#106
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
Actually 90 grains, in a powder measure is the standard load for the bess. A bigger load can go up to 120 grains but no more. As for stable? Have you spend a lot of time on smooth bore? Stable is not a word to be used. We're talking pretty much broad side of a barn. |
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May 25 2004, 09:24 PM
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#107
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
That's why I have the Webley, for style. The Beretta's for emergencies. As for being an anglo-phile, I'm just not addicted to German gunsd the way a lot of people are, and lets be honest, French guns like the St. Etienne, '93 Lebel and Chau-chat were infamous for being screw ups. |
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May 25 2004, 09:27 PM
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#108
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
:notworthy: Thank you, though I'm not sure for what. |
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May 25 2004, 09:38 PM
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#109
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 153 Joined: 16-February 04 From: Ohio, USA Member No.: 6,083 |
You can go more than 120 grain in a Bess and probably not blow it up but it won’t do you much good. The black powder burns to slow and you would not get much more velocity out of it. You would just get a lot more muzzle flash as the remaining unburnt powder flashed in the air ahead of the muzzle.
The muskets inaccuracy had more to due with the way they were loaded and what they were loaded with than purely because they were a smooth bore. Lose fitting patch and ball (not very round lead balls at that and often without a patch) were not very accurate. If you load them with tight fitting lubricated patches and very uniform round lead balls you can achieve decent accuracies out to 100 yds or so, enough to hit a man size target more often than not. Modern smooth bore guns can be fairly accurate. Foster slugs and some of the stabilized slugs for modern smoothbore shotguns do remarkably well out to 100-125 yds. They're still not a rifled shotgun barrels or a rifle but I would not want someone shooting at me with them. I personally manage 2 inch, five shot groups at 50yds with my 410 shotgun shooting foster slugs through a smooth bore. With 12 gage I usually manage about 4-5 inch groups with foster slugs but that is as much me as the gun. 3 inch slugs in a pump gun have to be some of the most unpleasant recoil I have encountered. Managing to shoot 5 rounds for groups over sand bags is very uncomfortable to say the least. I would much rather shoot a 416 Rigby bolt action than 3 inch slugs in a pump shotgun. Aimless Ramblings mcb |
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May 25 2004, 10:01 PM
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#110
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
hmm, think i'll have to get both (both have matching grip designs 8) ).
http://www.southernohiogun.com/new_hand.html http://www.southernohiogun.com/surplus_hand.html Beretta 951, adopted by Israel and later by their enemy Egypt. thats one hell of a complement. Might even be more than just a plinker if I find it works with more than FMJ such as Federal EFMJ or Corbon Powerball. 416 rounds of Bulgarian FMJ? i bet your mailman hates you. |
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May 26 2004, 03:00 AM
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#111
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
Right, that's why I put the upper limit at 120 grains, not a fear of blowingo ut the gun but because you gain nothing extra. As for the tight bullets/patches, if you take the time to load them sure, but that tight fit makes them slower to learn. most competitions I've seen have a time element and this is with flint locks, not precussion caps. So most trouble is taken napping the flints and, if it's humid, wiping down the frizzen. Historically you didn't get accurate fire until the Baker Rifle circa 1802. At Saratoga there was a British rgt that fired a volley, and missed with every shot. |
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May 26 2004, 05:28 PM
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#112
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
this is interesting lets follow up on that 10mm and .45ACP and .38 Super all have an OAL (OverAll Length) of 1.25-1.30'' there are longer cartridges that have been put in autopistol grip magazines such as .357Mag, .44Mag, .50AE (all 1.6'' OAL) in desert eagles and coonans, they are uncomfortable and nobody has dared trying to make them double stack. everyone i've heard from will also admit that the FiveSeven pistol is uncomfortable around the grip, it's a long slim cartridge with long spitzer type bullet on top (again a 1.6'' OAL) but it works as a double stack because it has a slim .30 case width. i think what people should try now is making a PDW cartridge based on a fatter cartridge case 10mm or 45ACP and make it a single stack mag. the .224BOZ might be close to this but i doubt it has near the energy of the 10mm it's based on because 1) the case was shortened 2mm from 25mm to 23mm (probably to enable it to accept that long spitzer bullet and 2) case capacity decreases from the necking down. they mention velocities from 1750-2200fps and 50gr. bullets being really generous and assuming that the 2200fps is from the 50gr. that's still only 537foot-pounds. here's what i'd like to see: .227 Dumpshock [5.56x25mm] a 10mm case necked down to 5.56mm it's a long spitzer bullet with an armor piercing tip. it measures a surprisingly light 42gr. because the first 1/3 of the bullet is an armor piercing tip and lead yet the back 2/3rds are aluminum with a hollow cavity of air (similar to the 5.45x39mm Soviet) that bullet exits the muzzle at around 2700fps producing 679 foot pounds of energy (similar to the hot loaded CZ52). when it hits the body it should not only be unstable and tumble quiet a bit like the 5.7x28mm is supposed to (longer bullet than the 5-7 means it will produce better wounds during said tumbling) but it might even fragment during the stress of that tumbling due to it's relatively weak aluminum/air-cavity construction. Damage: 9M (halve armor effects) Range: Heavy Pistol another spin off cartridge from this would be .300 Dumpshock a .45ACP cartridge necked to .30 it sends 85gr. bullets at 1800fps and gives the operator the option of switching to slow and heavy 230gr. bullets for silenced operations with merely a barrel change (you'll need a threaded barrel anyway). basically just like a CZ52 but more powerful and versatile Damage: 9M Range: Heavy Pistol |
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May 26 2004, 06:52 PM
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#113
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 153 Joined: 16-February 04 From: Ohio, USA Member No.: 6,083 |
The problem with necking down a cartridge to push a smaller bullet at higher velocities is that you have to do one of two things and sometime both of them. 1) The light bullet will require faster burning powders. This requirement is made worst by firing it in a short-barreled pistol. Pistol powder are already pretty high up there on the scale so getting a fast enough powder may be tricky 2) You may also have to raise chamber pressure to get the desired velocity. Again the desire to fire that cartridge in a pistol makes this more necessary. In this case you will probably have to do both to achieve the desired velocity.
Increasing chamber pressure will require a beefier action to handle the higher pressure. Also remember that short fat necked down cartridges are prone to feeding problems. Read a few articles on the new WSSM (Winchester Super Short Magnums) and they're only feeding those in bolt action for the most part. A 10mm necked down to 22 cal is going to give you feed problem in a standard semi-auto pistol action. mcb |
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May 26 2004, 07:27 PM
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#114
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Fortunately we've got 60 years to wait. ;) That helps with making a lighter action capable of handling higher pressures. I still feel my idea of getting the "best of both worlds" without more than a change of magazines would be workable, upgraded to a 10mm caseless round with an overall length of ~36mm and a diameter of ~13mm. Amount of powder to propel a long projectile in a sabot should no longer be a problem if the sabot can be designed to be fully wide only in a short section. Combined with the volume increase you can get from making the cartridge a rectangular prism instead of a cylinder, that should do it. Not that I have anything against otomik's designs. The Damage Codes of course break down if you start comparing Heavy Pistols and Assault Rifles, so I won't. :) |
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May 26 2004, 08:08 PM
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#115
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
Alliant Power Pistol is one of those better faster burning lower pressure making powders that has made new loads possible in recent years. The 10mm and .45ACP have relatively generous case capacity which makes them so versatile, i'd have to do some math to figure it out for sure but i'm pretty sure there's no dangerous pressures involved with what i described. here's some craziness with Alliant Power Pistol http://www.geocities.com/mousemag32/mg21.htm it's kind of a matter of opinion about the feed problems and i don't know much about WSSM because they always seemed rediculous to me. 10mm necked to 5.56mm isn't much different from the 9mm to 5.56mm you see on the .223 Remington and it feeds fine as far as i'm aware. .45 to .30 isn't that much of a stretch either, you can see that kind of neck on both .308 and .30-06. i don't know if these are really comparible to WSSM because i don't know WSSM cartridge dimensions. austere, you may have found another positive to caseless design i usually don't give caseless much thought because it doesn't seem worth overcoming all the engineering problems associated with it and it just seems bizarre. do caseless weapons need ejection ports, if not what do you do after you just chambered a dud round? |
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May 26 2004, 08:36 PM
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#116
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
In this particular case, the weapon could work almost identically to a cased design. The cartridge might even have a hard metal (or polymer/plastic by the 2060s) base, which is ejected as normal, to allow the feed and ejection to happen just as it would with cased cartridges. |
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May 26 2004, 08:53 PM
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#117
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Most caseless designs up to now (though admittedly there have not been many) include a provision for an ejection port in case of a malfunction or just a desire to empty the weapon. The G11 had one, for example, though it was never used during the course of normal firing. |
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May 26 2004, 09:06 PM
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#118
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 153 Joined: 16-February 04 From: Ohio, USA Member No.: 6,083 |
http://my.stratos.net/~thedump/odds/227DS.jpg
How this for a short fat dumping cartridge. This is about what a 227 Dumpshock would look like compared to a 223 Rem. Looking at this I could definitly see feeding problem unless you use some type of control feed like a Mauser action uses. I'm sure something similar could be worked into an auto pistol. But reliability would definitly be an issue. mcb |
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May 26 2004, 10:53 PM
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#119
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
hey that's pretty cool, looks a lot like .224 BOZ which is is basically, just a bit longer and with a bit more power. actually it looks like it might need a longer case than 25mm/1'' since i envisioned it having about an 1.5'' OAL which would put the tip of the bullet on level with the middle of the .223's case neck. a wildcat project might involve finding rare 10mm Magnum brass but this project would require a gun with a looong magwell.
http://www.civil-defence.org/products/ball...os/bullets.html as you can see from this diagram the OAL should be like the .38 Special or 5.7x28mm you see next to the .224BOZ. i think it needs a 30mm/1.2'' case feeding problems would be eased with a longer case, tapering the case and or giving it a less steep neck would also help and the resulting decrease in accuracy wouldn't be noticable for this cartridge's purposes. |
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May 26 2004, 11:24 PM
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#120
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Ordered that CZ52 from J&G today. Should have it in about a week. Couldn't get the 400 rounds of Bulgarian FMJ. The guy said that the BATF nixed the import. Apparently, the bullets had steel cores (AP). Ha! Got 250 rounds of S&B FMJ (the 1600+ fps stuff) instead.
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May 26 2004, 11:52 PM
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#121
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
this could work also
http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-...tegory=Revolver http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/218b.html very similar to a rimmed version of our theoretical .227 Dumpshock the .218 Bee fires a 224cal 45gr. bullet at 2800fps. i could imagine the average lonestar beatcop with a 4-inch one of these much easier than the ruger thunderbolt, gives a classic look thats less intimidating and favored by the PR guys. mcb, on your website that's the classiest pictures of the Ruger Mark II i've ever seen, really shows the subtle beauty of blueing. raygun, post a range report up here when you get it? |
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May 27 2004, 12:13 AM
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#122
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 153 Joined: 16-February 04 From: Ohio, USA Member No.: 6,083 |
I afraid a large part of my web site is toast. I had to move it after I finished school a while ago and I don't have enough space to put it all up proper like. I got spoiled having my own IP address at school and was running a web server on my lab computer. I essentally had as much web space as I had drive space and no band width limit. It makes trying to do a web page on the 10MB I have now from my ISP sort of suck. I just need to get some time to filter it down to the important stuff and clean it up.
mcb |
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May 27 2004, 07:07 AM
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#123
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
If you say so. I know almost nothing about the Brown Bess or charge weights for it. However, prior to your 90 grain comment, when we were discussing "grains", we were talking about bullet weights. I assumed you were talking about the same thing. That's why I mentioned that a 90 grain, 0.75" projectile would be a pretty odd thing to come by. And what mcb said. Sabot slug loads through a shotgun can get you within 6 inches at 100 meters these days. More here.
Glad to know I'm not the only pussy around here. (Check out the link above.) I have a lot more replying to do here and very little time to do it with. One thing I would like to say is, in reference to this handgun AP ammo thing, READ THIS FRIGGIN PATENT. Install this software and look at the patent images. It's worth the effort.
Absolutely. :) |
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May 27 2004, 01:09 PM
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#124
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
When dealing with black powder you use a measuring cup- like a thumbal on steroids- with a sliding scale to measure out the powder, poured from a tin or horn. The meassurements are "grains." but it is not counting out specific grains, that would vary too much depending on how finely ground your powder is. it's just a measure, probably the basis of the "grains" term you guys are kicking around for modern bullets, like "horsepower" for motors.
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May 27 2004, 02:44 PM
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#125
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 320 Joined: 13-August 02 From: Austin, Republic of Texas (not CAS) Member No.: 3,094 |
hey raygun... I'm starting the paperwork for the C&R licence, so I can order one of those CZ52s as well, I am very interested in the range report.
MCB, how much space do you need? I have about 300Mb that I am not using, that I would be happy with storing content on for you, you could use your ISP as the gateway and store the data on mine... PM me if you are interested. -Mike R. |
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