 Brand name firearms, do you play around with them? |
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 May 27 2004, 04:58 PM
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#126
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752  |
i don't get it, the patent talks about shooting armor-piercing donut-shaped bullets. it will produce higher velocities but it's still spreading the energy out in about the same area on the armor, it's striking surface is a donut rather than a point. it sounds like it will twist and flip around a lot in the body (without being an "expanding" projectile, definately plus for military guys). i'd really like to see that in ballistic gelatin, but civilians probably have better options out there already. best info i can find on it now is 10 years old, which makes me wonder if there's a few reasons it's ancient history. i think the AWB or an earlier law restricted bullet composition a lot.
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May 27 2004, 05:27 PM
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#127
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 153 Joined: 16-February 04 From: Ohio, USA Member No.: 6,083 |
I'm not quite sure I would call it a doughnut. It does have a hole in the center but since it is a very hard projectile it will not mushroom when hitting soft armor.
http://my.stratos.net/~thedump/odds/45_acp_ap.jpg I added the colour to make the projectile parts to make it stand out in the drawing. As you can see the round would have a sharp circular cutting edge that in theory should help cut through soft armor. I would love to see some actual test data. I wonder if the expose steel projectile cause accelerated were problems? I would think that would be very evident in full auto Sub-guns chambered in 45 ACP. Just for fun I made a similar drawing to the 227DS above for the 300DS. http://my.stratos.net/~thedump/odds/300DS.jpg Later mcb P.S. Talked to my isp and they gave me an additional 15MB of space for free. Very kind of them. :-) |
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May 27 2004, 10:28 PM
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#128
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
In the cotext we're both using it, the term "grain" is a standard English measurement of weight equal to 1/7000th of a pound (avoirdupois). We're both using the same system of measurement, we're just talking about the weight of different objects.
In the English system, the particular grain used was a barelycorn. In the world of firearms, the most commonly used metric equivalent to grains is grams (1 gram = 15.432 grains).
You don't need a C&R license unless you're planning on collecting a lot of older guns. If you just want a CZ52, all you need is your friendly neighborhood FFL dealer. Go to your local gun shop, bring in the magazine ad and show them what you want. They'll order the gun for you. It will be shipped there, and they will handle the paperwork. Most FFLs will charge a small fee for this service. Check back here in about a week. I will be posting a report. |
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May 28 2004, 04:06 AM
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#129
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
A very sharp, very hard donut travelling a lot faster than any cream-filled powdered donut is likely to. :)
I think it was a combination of the ban on AP ammo (no commercial market to offset R&D costs), a lack of interest in pistol-caliber AP technologies, as well as other AP technologies that were in development around the same time (SLAP, Raufoss, etc...). I'm sure the feed ramp gouging didn't help any, but that's certainly a problem easily solved. It appears to me that this projectile offers the best performance possible from a pistol-caliber platform. The fact that you don't have to deal with the problems sabots introduce seems like a plus to me. Even though the load would be supersonic, a version of this bullet without the discarding obturator could be suppressed. Another plus. In the patent, he quotes this load in .45 ACP as 109 grains at 1400-1500 fps. That's an improvement for the .45 ACP, certainly. But if you have the choice, the .45 ACP is not exactly the most ideal platform to start from. If the 10mm Auto can launch a 200 grain bullet at 1200 fps, think what it can do for a bullet half that mass. I'm thinking 1900+ fps shouldn't be a problem. There's a newer patent for this bullet design, which includes some changes. US5275110. The other viable option is the Russian SJESC bullet, as used by the Russians in several different cartridges. It's pretty much just a sub-caliber steel core with a thick copper jacket surrounding it. Replace the steel core with tungsten carbide and there you go. Of course you can dedicate a cartridge to the task, which seems to be the route otomik and mcb are taking (and I tend to agree with), but it seems that Aus was trying to figure out a way to make a decent AP load for a semi-auto handgun cartridge also capable of good subsonic ballistics (for use with sound suppression), with the firearm being built around the cartridge. That's what I'm trying to address here. |
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May 28 2004, 04:32 AM
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#130
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
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May 28 2004, 03:30 PM
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#131
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
it's actually a thick aluminum jacket with a long steel penetrator that protrudes a little at the top and bottom. i like this idea, the subcalibre will pentrate if it hits something armored and if it hits something unarmored it will still expand. this would make a nice low cost replacement to M882 if they added a copper jacket. a tungsten penetrator would be nice but i have a feeling it's one of those economy things the russians like to do like steel cases, they probably use the same carbon steel penetrator from the 7N6, 7N10 or 7N22 AP-type 5.45x39mm cartridges. aluminum and carbon steel would be much easier to standardized on, but a deluxe version with tungsten and kevlar tip would be nice too. http://club.guns.ru/eng/barnaul.html that seems to do the trick because i'd hate to go underneath the 9mm FMJ standard unless it's the only thing that penetrates especially if it's not needed (i'd hate to be stuck with a 5.7x28mm NATO standard caliber if all i was doing is popping skinnies in some 3rd word shithole). i doubt body armor proliferation is going to happen much, it degrades over time, gets worse with moisture and sweat so 3rd world body armor is going to be rare and or crappy. |
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May 28 2004, 08:36 PM
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#132
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
The problem with black powder is the size of ther grains 2F, laike large salt grains is standard for muskets and rifles. 1F veru coarse, for cannons, down to 4f with is as fine as baby powder. 4F makes really good priming but because there is so little space between the grains it doesn't work as well for the primary charge. |
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May 28 2004, 09:22 PM
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#133
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 153 Joined: 16-February 04 From: Ohio, USA Member No.: 6,083 |
The size of the grains of Black powder effect how fast it burns. The finer grain results in more exposed surface area and thus a faster burn.
Load a brown bess up with 120 grains of FFFFg and you might just blow it up. The real finely ground powder would burn really fast and might over pressure the gun. FFFFg is primarily used for the flash pan of a flint lock. I do think that some of the 22 cal pistol also use FFFFg for the propellant charge. FFFg is used in small caliber black powder rifle, like 32 cal and 36 cal and most black powder handguns. FFg is used in larger caliber rifles 45-58cal and a few large caliber handguns. I have a 54 caliber plains pistol that I have load data using either FFFg of FFg. 50 grains of FFFg will produce similar muzzle velocities to about 66 grains of FFg in my 9 inch barreled plains pistol. Fg is for small cannons. They actually make black powder in larger pellets for big cannon but I am not sure the designations. The real problem loading black powder is that most people use volume-measuring devices when loading in the field. This will only give you an approximate charge. The grain size from batch to batch along with the fact that black powder is hydroscopic, loving to absorb water, makes for a lot of variability. Many shooters that shoot black powder competition for marksmanship will actually setup a scale and weight their charges for each shot. They also go to great length to keep their powder dry. mcb |
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May 29 2004, 01:21 AM
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#134
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Do you know of any other source to verify that? I can't find one. I know that this guy says it's an aluminum jacket, but everything about the jacket in that picture sure looks copper to me (the edges where the jacket is torn are not silver-colored, for example). I guess it would make sense in terms of ballistics that the jacket would be made of aluminum as it weighs less than copper, but what doesn't make sense to me is that they would bother to copper plate it prior to swaging it around the penetrator. Obviously, the penetrator isn't copper plated, while if the jacket were aluminum, it would have to be to make any sense in this picture. Anyway, either would work just fine. The New World of Russian Small Arms and Ammo by Charlie Cutshaw does not offer any enlightenment except to say that the Russians tend to be "very secretive" about the particulars of ammunition technologies. Perhaps you have info you'd like to elaborate on. As I'm sure you can tell, I'm pretty interested in this concept.
Yup.
Tungsten definitely would make a much better penetrator. Kevlar tip? Like boots?
Probably another reason why NATO-affiliated nations haven't put a whole lot into anti-personnel AP technologies. There weren't many com-block nations that would have had the resources and technology to develop decent body armor technology. Russia and maybe Yugoslavia. But things have changed in the world of Shadowrun. In that case, Aus is right. Someone would have to figure something out that would be interoperable in one firearm for both kinds of missions. |
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May 29 2004, 01:42 AM
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#135
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
So, do you guys use other brand name firearms in your games? :grinbig:
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May 29 2004, 02:17 AM
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#136
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Having put some thought into the tubular AP bullet thingamabob, it certainly seems promising. Like otomik, I'd love to see what sort of holes that'll put into ballistic gelatin (and thus meat). A reliable comparison of penetration of body armor with all the mentioned bullet types is never going to happen, so I might as well stop wishing.
I don't know where the line is drawn for 3rd world, but you can see some South African soldiers in some sort of (rather old) flak vests here and, as you can tell from the article, the SA military isn't exactly well funded. I remember seeing lots of body armor in Haiti when the latest ousting of Aristide was going on there some time back, some can be seen here on local policemen/soldiers/whatever -- I guess those were mostly bought from the US with US funds, but it's still body armor in a crappy 3rd world country. And you never know who you'll be fighting against, although guys like these are unlikely to pick a fight with the US military any time soon. |
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May 29 2004, 03:27 AM
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#137
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
In fact, it's body armor in the crappiest of crappy third world countries. Not a common occurrence, and chances are that if you do run into it, it'll be sporadic to the point where switching ammunition would not be an effective choice in combat, but it's certainly something worth preparing for.
On a related note, otomik, watch your language. You may not have meant anything by it, but that was pretty fucking racist, and I don't find that acceptable in the least. |
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May 29 2004, 04:19 AM
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#138
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Would you accept a box of tampons? :spin:
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May 29 2004, 06:31 PM
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#139
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Nearly all pictures of armed government soldiers or policemen showed body armor in Haiti. There, at least, it was certainly not sporadic -- most had it. And while Haiti might be in the minority among 3rd world countries, I cannot see how that minority would not get significant fast. Given 60 years, it could easily be the majority. |
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May 29 2004, 10:51 PM
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#140
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
haitian body armor, it's probably old donated stuff from the US or France, just like their M-14 rifles. old donated stuff, especially nice and moist sweaty stuff from that hot haitian climate is crap. there are flak vests which are pretty cheap surplus also but they're like Level I protection. i also belong to the shadowrun school of thought that unless there's plenty of evidence in the books you shouldn't assume anything more than current day tech (even late eighties tech actually). like in Cowboy Bebop where everything is current day tech with large exceptions (matrix, cyberware, spaceflight) Skinnies are militia teenagers high on khat running around with AKs they hardly know how to use, race has nothing to do with it or do you think that i think all black people are like that? and you didn't even catch snowfox's Boche comment a few pages ago? even the germans on this board are lighthearted enough to see it's not racist at all.
If it helps, i feel the same way when people talk car mechanics.
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May 30 2004, 10:37 AM
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#141
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Then I guess this is a completely pointless discussion. :) I absolutely do not think that way, I try to think of everything in terms of at least 2030s technology, or however far into the future I can project my imagination.
While you know it, it should be mentioned that that body armor is no where near as old as M14s. That style of kevlar helmets hasn't been around more than 10-15 years. Assuming you keep the protective covers on the armor intact and don't abuse the vest a lot, the protective value shouldn't significantly deteriorate in 10 years. Level I protection is extremely rare in obvious body armor, I still haven't seen it anywhere, so I doubt that's anything less than level II -- which is what the 12-year-old vests I used in the Finnish DF were. Now going with my line of thought, the shelf life of body armor is going to increase in 60 years, a lot. Their vulnerability to water and general wear and tear is going to decrease, a lot. Some militaries might still be issuing 20-year-old body armor which would still be guaranteed to any common pistol non-AP rounds, or even rifle rounds, depending on how heavy that armor is. The protective value of rigid body armor shouldn't deteriorate at all in normal use. If it being uncomfortable doesn't stop US soldiers, it won't stop locals either. The only real issue is cost, and I don't think the major military powers in the world can keep thinking that they'll never fight any enemy which can afford body armor for its troops in any amount for 60 years. However, if you want to keep the tech level in the SR world in the late 80s - modern era in some respects, that's fine for your games. I'm discussing this mainly from the point of view of my games, and I guess most people's games, where technology will continue to advance, even if it happens at an extremely slow pace in some areas, comparable perhaps to the last 60 years IRL. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: May 30 2004, 10:38 AM |
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May 31 2004, 06:55 PM
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#142
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
Boche roughly translates as "goons" or "square heads" and is used to designated the Germans in the 2 World Wars.
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May 31 2004, 07:02 PM
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#143
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Never be rude to an Arab,
An Isreali, or Saudi, or Jew. Never be rude to an Irishman, No matter what you do. Never poke fun at a Nigger, A Spic, or a Wop, or Kraut. And never poke fun at a... (Sorry for messing up a perfectly fine thread...) |
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Jun 1 2004, 02:54 AM
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#144
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
you know at the rate us americans are going ""skinnies" will be the nickname for every enemy in every future conflict, unless we decide to attack Samoa...
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Jun 1 2004, 06:53 AM
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#145
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
i started a companion thread on thehighroad.org
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&t...&threadid=84764 might be able to collect some more info on Flatau's Tubular Penetrator. i also messaged max popenker (the russian guy that runs the Modern Firearms website that has the info on Exposed Steel Core ammo) so he might show up to add his two nuyen. one interesting thing about the Tube Penetrator and the THV ammo is it looks like a shadowrunner sufficiently motivated and with access to a lathe could make bullets like these and create their own AP handloads (an alternative to blackmarket APDS) |
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Jun 1 2004, 09:56 AM
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#146
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
From Max Popenker:
the russian stock number reveals some more info with a quick google search http://club.guns.ru/wwwboard/message/eng/1621.html
7N21 is a 79gr. bullet traveling at 1500fps looks like about +P pressure since CorBon reports having a 9mm load of 90gr. at 1500fps. as for 7N31 (65 grains @ 1970 fps) He doesn't mention it but i don't see how those ballistics are possible without lightening the bullet a lot. Sounds like +P+ to me and the 7N31 load might be where the aluminum part comes into play. "aka called 9mm PBP. PBP ammo can penetrate 8mm plate of mild steel at 20 meters, or any Class III bulletproof vest at the same range. " it appears the 7N21 load was developed especially for the Yarygin PYa / MP-443 "Grach" pistol and the 7N31 load was developed especially for the GSh-18 . |
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Jun 1 2004, 02:17 PM
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#147
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 173 Joined: 4-March 03 Member No.: 4,196 |
If armor penetration is the primary concern of modern/future ammunition design, will there be much development of small (under .50, especially under 9x19) caliber explosive ammunition?
Up front, I'm going to throw my credibility out the window so there will be no surprise by any of the following statements (but I'm curious, so I ask anyway). I recently saw A Kite, basically an action anime. For those who haven't seen it, the protagonists used an over-stylized high-tech handgun loaded with (very powerful) explosive ammunition. It was (detachable box) magazine fed, through the grip and fired small caliber rounds from bottle-necked cases. The guns seemed to have an infinite ammo supply, but it was an action flick, so I'm ignoring that. The slugs were explosive and could either be set, via a button on the top of the gun, to not explode, explode on impact, or explode after a short delay. The opening scene showed a small blue light at the back of the slug (which was in a man's head). I'm guessing that was a visual cue for light = electronic timer/detonator. They made huge wounds when they exploded. For the most part I'm ignoring that as well, but keeping the concept. How powerful would an explosive have to be to cause a wound that was significantly better than just letting the slug fly through a person? In order to act as a normal and explosive bullet, I'm guessing the explosive compound would have to be at least as hard as lead. Is there any current explosive material that's very stable and also relatively hard? I'm assuming the rounds were jacketed. In one scene they wouldn't penetrate metal, but there are other scenes where the rounds destroy less resilient materials. If the rounds are jacketed with something hard enough to prevent deforming, would it be strong enough to also negate the effects of the explosive? The slugs were small. It took many shots to kill a person if they didn't explode inside the target. Is there enough space in a slug no bigger than 9mm for an electronic detonator, jacket, and enough explosive to cause an unusually large wound? I'm not very worried about the gun itself, it had less tech built in than a smartlink, but the super bullets that went into the thing are an issue. I suppose the technology exists in the SR world to make them, but would anyone? Also, could it be done with relatively inexpensive bullets? |
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Jun 1 2004, 05:09 PM
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#148
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Okay. Let's start with this: I'm pretty convinced that explosive ammunition for small arms is a waste of time and effort if you're only interested in killing people. You can do that far, far cheaper and simpler.
There should absolutely not be what we generally think of as a detonator in a small arms explosive round. It takes far, far too much space. This is why explosive ammunition such as the various HE .50BMGs are detonated by a incendiary mixture which is lit by the friction of hitting a target. It is conceivable that in 60 years we'd have explosive mixtures that could be pre-set by an electrical impulse to explode after some (very short) amount of time or on contact, or not at all. No separate detonator. A hard jacket would not be a problem, not if you fired the rounds at a rather low velocity (preferably under 1500fps), keep the bullet size rather large and don't plan on penetrating any armor without the explosion. The main problem I see is density. Explosives are nowhere near dense enough to make up the majority of volume in a small arm projectile, especially in a non-AP design. The MK 211 MOD 0 and similar designs get around this by having a rather hefty core of tungsten and lots of other metals. For what you're talking about, that would be somewhat counterproductive. The bullet would have to be very large to hold enough explosive to have a significant effect. Such a bullet would kill people pretty well without any explosive, only with a really good design you might get a tiny increase in effectiveness at dozens of times the cost. I think I had a point when I started out, what was it again... Yeah, uhh, it wouldn't have to be mechanically or electronically too complex by the 2060s, but it would still be a fair bit more expensive than many other solutions to killing people and not significant more effective. And even if not as ridiculously complex as in that anime, they'd still be more complex than any conventional solution. But, assuming that explosive compounds are invented that are extremely dense (preferably at least 10x water), and others that can be set by a varying electric charge to detonate at a certain time in the near future or by friction or pressure, it could be done. Pointless, but possible. |
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Jun 1 2004, 05:26 PM
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#149
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
remote detonaters on 9mm bullets? thats way out there, maybe for a very anime campaign, probably too anime for shadowrun in fact, more like BESM.
There's something in the old Fields of Fire Book in the Shadowtalk. God i love the old shadowtalk, and back when they wrote it correctly with differing points of view, now it just looks like a write wrote the hole damn thing then sectioned it off (North America book especially). anyway this one guy is talking about bullets that explode on contact with moisture. it's possible and it's not that hightech at all. Sodium explodes on contact with water http://www.powerlabs.org/chemlabs/sodium.htm a chemistry professor at my college actually took a good brick sized chunk of sodium out on the lake and it just kept exploding and exploding then fragmenting and it was just very, very cool 8) anyway try filling the hollowpoint of a bullet with a hunk of sodium, i think that would explode inside a body rather than on contact. imagine some demented villian that gets his jollies shooting people and then seeing the same bullet explode back out of their chest moments later, it would make a very indimidating scene to let character know that even in a shades of gray campaign their are still some seriously evil guys out there. |
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Jun 1 2004, 05:35 PM
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#150
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Yeah, 'cause getting your jollies shooting people in the chest isn't evil enough. :P Exploding in moisture is certainly possible, but it's not very reliable, and that would rule out the possibility of setting it to explode on contact or not at all. Considering the rate of advancement going on in materials technology, it wouldn't surprise me if there was stuff around that fulfilled the criteria I set above. |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 27th September 2025 - 01:51 AM |
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