 Brand name firearms, do you play around with them? |
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 May 14 2004, 06:54 PM
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#51
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Mostly Harmless  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176  |
I had a feeling you might have something to say about this, otomik... :) Berettas are definitely top-quality guns, no doubt, but I for one am not really sure that the refinements offered are worth $150+ retail. Do you really need a chrome lined barrel? I know I don't. But if you buy a Taurus and for some odd reason the barrel does crap out, there's that lifetime warranty. Just get a new one. As I understand it, the locking block for the Taurus 92/99/100/101 was redesigned around the same time Beretta redesigned theirs (mid 90's). New design, different steel, different heat treating procedures.
The difference in the safety arrangement is exactly why I like the Taurus pistols more. All of the Taurus pistols that compete with the Beretta 92/96 include a decocker that operates indepenently of the safety, unlike the Beretta pistols. They can also be carried in Condition 1. While that's not important to everyone, being raised with a 1911, that form of safety arrangement is very familiar to me and is a big reason why I'm inclined toward the Taurus pistols.
As far as the slides breaking are concerned, that's one of the stories. The other is that Beretta made a batch of slides for the French goverment (apparently before MAS started making their own slides). As it turned out, the French slides were brittle due to the heat treatment process specified, and a lot of those slides broke after a time using standard pressure ammunition. The problem was solved, but it was nonetheless a problem. The SEALs were using a very hot subsonic load developed by Knight's for the suppressed modification of the 92. It was actually a 170 grain FMJ @ 975 fps, pushing 40,000 psi peak pressure. Enough of that abuse will definitely break a pistol that's designed to push about 35,000 psi. That's one reason why Beretta developed their Brigadier models. "You're not a Navy SEAL until you've tasted Italian steel!" The locking blocks, however, do tend to break before the rest of the gun wears out, even when using standard ammunition. This is by design. A locking block is cheaper to replace than an entire barrel and slide assembly. Apparently, wear causes uneven stress on the block, causing the right side locking ear to snap off if you let it go too long. If it does snap, the slide won't lock correctly and the locking recesses in the slide will be subject to far more pressure than they are normally. Kaboom, snap, slide imbedded in your face. Well, it would be if they hadn't redesigned the hammer pivot pin to keep the rear of the slide from flying off, anyway. To be fair, if you did the same with a Taurus, you probably would end up with a slide up your nose.
Not that I know of, but I do treat the Super Warhawk as a single action because of the SS mode. It's just the way I choose to explain why it uses SS mode. For example, a Super Redhawk would have the same stats except SA mode.
That's how I handle the Colt SAA as well. I do think that it might be a good idea to note that you are referring to a particular design of single action revolver, as opposed to all single action revolvers. For example, an S&W Model 3 is a single action revolver, but it's also a break top that can be speed loaded. |
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May 14 2004, 09:04 PM
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#52
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
So are Taurus inferior? When I was looking at the that was just what I was told,without the details, as to why the Taurus is bigger, worse metalurgy. For those who haven't seen them, the Taurus looks like a Beretta on steroids. It is cheaper but bigger and the Beretta just felt better in my hand.
I hate to ask but "single action" "Double action?" My Webley (.38) can be mannually cocked but similarly I can just pull the trigger and it will cock itself before firing. It actually is quicker in that regard than the berretta to get into action, goping from lying on a table. since you have to mannually work the slide on the automatic for the first shot. |
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May 14 2004, 09:50 PM
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#53
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
your webley is double-action or "self-cocking" as jeff cooper sometimes refers to it, the beretta 92 is also double-action but you need to put a round in the chamber and charge the weapon, you've been storing your Beretta in condition 3 as the israelis do (chamber empty). The legendary guru of the combat 1911, Jeff Cooper, came up with the "Condition" system to define the state of readiness of the 1911-pattern pistol. The are: Condition 0 - A round is in the chamber, hammer is cocked, and the safety is off. Condition 1 - Also known as "cocked and locked," means a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied. Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down. Condition 3 - The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun. Condition 4 - The chamber is empty, hammer is down and no magazine is in the gun. raygun likes condition 1 i and many other double action shooters prefer condition 2 thats nice that Taurus copied a lot of the improvements Beretta has made down the years and not just use the original Beretta 92 design that they bought the rights to make, yes very nice of them. maybe i just like to see money go to designers, maybe I can't stand Taurus management, listen to Bob Morrison on guntalk blather on about the Taurus-MetalStorm Smartgun and how they'll be the only gun you can buy by judicial coup. |
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May 14 2004, 10:02 PM
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#54
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
For the record, I was talking about single action revolvers, not specifically single action revolvers in the old SAA style. So, basically, just a single action trigger that requires you to cock it before firing. Within SR, I don't think there's any real difference between either action, considering what else you can do as a free action.
Also, I'm curious: why don't you guys go with weapon skill to determine the number of shells loaded instead of Quickness? Seems like the former'd make more sense. Also, Fox, they should be about even to grab off a table and fire, assuming you leave a round chambered in the Beretta. It's not like that's incredibly unsafe practice, or anything, either. |
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May 15 2004, 01:26 AM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 153 Joined: 16-February 04 From: Ohio, USA Member No.: 6,083 |
Arthusa I think that if its single action revolver independent of the style of revolver its going to be significantly slower then a revolver capable of double actions or double/single action. A single action revolver has to be cocked manually every time its to be fired not just the first time as in the case of a single action semi-auto. I believe it is reasonable to make all single action revolvers slower to fire than a double action revolver. Loading should be a case by case. A Colt Army single action should be slower than dirt to load a Schofield single action should be no slower than any "modern" double action revolver.
I do agree with you that it should probably be firearms skill or a combination of firearms skill and quickness for reloading rather than just quickness alone. mcb |
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May 15 2004, 02:42 AM
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#56
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
In my experience, absolutely not. I've fired different models of both pistols several different times, and in all practical senses, they might as well be the same pistol. They're both very accurate and very reliable. The only significant differences are the safety arrangement, for which I prefer the Taurus, and cost. Beretta does put more into finishing their guns by rounding off sharp edges, chrome lining barrels, using more ergonomic grip panels, the "Bruniton" finish, etc... Nice little touches that don't have any significant effect on functionality. If you consider the lack of these things an inferiority, then I guess that's what they are. For me, they do not justify the $150-180 difference in cost. Don't get me wrong, Beretta makes extremely good products. Some of the best in the world. But in the case of the Beretta 92 vs. Taurus 92, I think the Taurus is the better product. It really comes down to personal preferrence.
Sounds like something a salesman would say. I haven't seen anything that would seem to uphold that claim. Examining pistols that have had thousands of rounds through them certainly doesn't, but it's not like I've seen any real extreme cases of that either.
Again, the Taurus does have grip panels that aren't quite as ergonomic as those found on the Beretta pistols. The Taurus may feel bigger, but the frame, slide, barrel, etc... actually have the exact same dimensions as the Beretta pistol. The Taurus pistols are made on tooling that Beretta built and imported from Italy to Brazil.
Right. That's double action. The trigger mechanism can both cock and release the hammer. In a single action pistol, the trigger can only release the hammer. The hammer must be cocked manually or the trigger won't do anything.
Unless you have the chamber loaded, then it's a simple matter of pulling the trigger through like you would any double action revolver (as well as being safer than your Webley). Not only that, but follow-ups are potentially more accurate because the pistol automatically cocks the hammer after the first shot, thus you can fire from the single action mode (which requires less pressure on the trigger). On top of that, you'll have 11-16 shots with a fully loaded magazine and chamber, as opposed to 6.
I am partial to using Condition 1, but the main reason I like the Taurus over the Beretta is that you have the option of using either Condition 1 or Condition 2. With the Beretta, there is no Condition 1 (except on the Combat/Stock models, but then there's no decocker).
What's really going to burn your ass is that Taurus never purchased any rights to produce the guns! Beretta's Brazilian military contract was up in 1980 and they were at a quandary as what to do with the tooling. Their Italian plant didn't need it anymore, and destroying it was cost-prohibitive. Taurus offered to buy the entire plant at a substantial profit to Beretta, and Beretta jumped at the offer. They made their own bed. Now they have to lie in it. You can't blame Taurus for improving their products as well. The same thing happened to S&W when Bangor Punta owned both them and Taurus. S&W took advantage of the cheap labor, Bangor Punta sold off both companies, Taurus bought up S&W's shit.
Yeah, that's fucked. I wish Taurus wasn't involved in it, but if they weren't, who would be? Some other company, probably one that doesn't know the first thing about guns and doesn't give a shit about anything but government grants. I think it's a good thing that it's an existing gun company that's involved, but I hope the people of New Jersey will wake up and shitcan the legislation more than anything else. Anyway, I can understand how that would turn a person away from buying any Taurus products, but it doesn't change the fact that they make a good copy of the Beretta 92.
I think there should be disadvantages to using weapons that are "slower" to get into action, like single action revolvers. Skill should offset this somewhat, but as a simple rule, requiring a "ready weapon" Simple Action to cock the hammer seems reasonable to me. |
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May 15 2004, 03:49 AM
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#57
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
So do I. My point is only that, given what else you can do with a free action, it's somewhat ridiculous to say that you can't cock a pistol hammer without expending a simple action. Balanced, yes, but not internally consistent. If you change what's allowed as a free action, that's another matter entirely, and, hell, that's a decision I'd advocate. |
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May 15 2004, 04:03 AM
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#58
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Can you give some examples of Free Actions that make applying this a problem? I mean, I think this falls squarely under the definition of a Ready Weapon Simple Action and I can't think of any Free Action that would create this much friction, but I don't have my books with me at the moment.
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May 15 2004, 04:09 AM
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#59
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
All Mundane Free Actions Actions PDF
Activate Cyberware Delay Action Drop Object Drop Prone Gesture Observe Speak a Word Combat Call a Shot Change Smartgun Fire Mode Eject Smartgun Clip |
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May 15 2004, 04:26 AM
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#60
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Thanks, Kanada Ten.
So arguables would be Drop Object, Drop Prone, and Gesture? I suppose cyclotrimethylenetrinitramine counts as a word... Eh... This would be one of those if-my-players-threw-a-fit things, I'd let 'em have it for the sake of saving time. Otherwise, if pulling a trigger is a Simple Action, so is cocking a hammer. |
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May 15 2004, 06:30 AM
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#61
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 173 Joined: 4-March 03 Member No.: 4,196 |
Even making cocking a hammer a Free Action, the weapon is still slower than double, single-double, and self cocking handguns, since there's only one Free Action for each character's combat phase.
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May 15 2004, 06:33 AM
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#62
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
That's a good point, though don't forget that the weapon can be cocked for the first shot on the immediately preceding combat phase and then cocked again after the first shot, which basically means you're just as fast as a semi auto pistol until you start using your free actions for other things (like calling shots).
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May 16 2004, 03:46 AM
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#63
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
Thanks for explaining it. I thought that's what was meant but no one exer explained it to me.
This thread really does fall into the idea of the differences between Beretta and Taurus that I noticed while shopping. You get hit with their .380 round it won't make much difference to you, but I have small hands and found the berretta("Nice in a lady's handbag") just more comfortable. Oddly enough the Webley, a larger gun, as a slimer grip since it doesn't need to make room for a clip, and I can shoot better with it, though that might be the longer barrel too. Just for the record, I store All my firearms unloaded. If I need it I takes only a momment to slam a clip into the berretta and cock it. Unless I'm actually prepared to fire, I don't like to even chamber a round in the berretta. Keeping a gun lying around with a round chambered is just asking for trouble. |
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May 16 2004, 03:53 AM
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#64
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
I hear ya on the RL safety concerns but SR-wise its generally better to have a round in the chamber ;)
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May 16 2004, 04:02 AM
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#65
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
It's not just SR, though (discounting the fact that SR has no safety concerns short of GM fiat). Anyone living that sort of lifestyle is going to be storing guns with mags loaded, and probably a personal weapon with a round in the chamber at all times. If you don't however, definitely an understandable safety concern.
Curious how you'd load the Webley if you ended up in a situation that called for it, though. |
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May 16 2004, 06:49 AM
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#66
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
No prob. :)
I don't doubt that. The Beretta is slightly more comfortable to me, too. BTW, both of the pistols we've been discussing are chambered in 9x19mm. Beretta does make pistols in .380, most notably their model 84. It's a bit smaller than the 92 and operates on a different principle, but it does look similar to the 92 and is arguably the best .380 on the market. (It's the pistol Trinity uses in the Matrix movies.)
Definitely. I store my firearms unloaded as well. But I didn't really think that "lying on a table" was meant to respresent a reasonable form of storage. I was thinking more in terms of carry, or how a shadowrunner might keep a gun at the ready when resting at a safe house or something similar. In that way, having a loaded Webley lying on a table is no different or safer than having a chambered Beretta lying on a table.
Like you would any other break-top revolver. Find some speedloaders (they were made) or make your own. If you had or knew anyone who had any experience with CAD, you could use a patent (like US 4202124) as a place to start and whip up a file for a speedloader that any CAM shop could cut for you, several of them in a day. Another option would be to have a clip recess cut into the Webley's cylinder face, then have a die made for press-cutting clips out of sheet steel. I'd be more curious as to why any shadowrunner would bother to carry a Webley around anyway, personality quirks aside. |
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May 17 2004, 02:00 PM
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#67
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
Well, if you can get the .455 Webley's that's a hell of a take down weapon without magnum loads.
I've handled them both and would love to get a .455. Both are good pistols but the .455 is something to go after the boshe with. the .38 is better than screaming for help. I wouldn't go for the Webley to load in an emergency. That's why I bought the berretta. Most of my guns are more collectors or, personal interest items. The berretta is for defense. |
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May 17 2004, 02:21 PM
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#68
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Personally, I have severe resevations about storing a weapon mean for 'instant' defense unloaded (or even without a round in the chamber). Most defense weapons that people talk about would be used within a home, which is well within the 'lethal range' of a knife/bat/etc. If you go for your weapon you immediatly escalate the situation for the person on the other side. They will have to take you out. If you just rolled over, they might let you live. If you are going to have to go for your weapon, it darn well better be ready to fire when you get your hand on it, anything else increases your risk.
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 May 17 2004, 02:43 PM
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#69
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The Sewer Jockey Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 857 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Kent, United Kingdom Member No.: 1,197 |
As an aside from the Old World, I must say I find the discussion disturbing!
Alright, like most teenagers (those were the days) I was obsessed with violence and as part of my sometime job as a theatrical props man I have some firearms knowledge, but over here in the UK the merest hint of a firearm is such a deterrent that the load status of a weapon is largely irrelevant. There's a professional hunter lives up the road, used to be on the Olympic shooting squad, so I hear, and is ex-military. He, professionally, keeps weapons in his home. That's a 12gauge or somesuch. The crooks don't even go near the place. Except the aforementioned obsessed teenagers who get umpty and throw bricks at his car because he wont let them come visit his gun collection... pratts... |
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May 17 2004, 02:43 PM
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#70
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
bob, lets not turn this into a gun owner debate. I'm a small woman. living in a relatively isolated spot. I am and have been quit prepared to defend myself. I'm betting you have been lucky enough to not be in that situation. I have been. I didn't heistate then and I don't care if I might be escalating it. Someone comes through my door uninvited, they have escalted it and I have no intention of waiting to see how far they want to go. I've been the victim of attempted muggings and the last one, in Yonkers New York, I put in the hospital.
In New York, another time, I had an attempted push in robbery that I stopped with a sword tip to the man's throat. If he had not stopped, I would have thrust home without any reservations. I think he saw that in my face. Because after looking at me he pulled back. I'm not roaming the streets like some crazed vigilanty, but I will defend my home and my family and I won't hesitate. If someone has broken in through my front door and is standing on my living room carpet, there is no debate. If I point a gun at someone, it is with the intention to shoot. You NEVER shoot to wound, that is BS. You shoot and you shoot to kill. Anything else and you will end up dead. If you aren't prepared for that, don't own fire arms. I do, and I am. Here endeth the lesson. |
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May 17 2004, 03:07 PM
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#71
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
runners with webleys: a webley .455 oozes class, same reason a Face-type character might pack a luger p-08. maybe it's not perfectly realistic and their are good classy modern weapons but for a anime inspired campaign it will do nicely. also runners that live in areas where no modern firearms are being imported in large numbers will want any functional gun they can find (plenty of yakuza with old 1911A1s, Tokarevs and Makarovs).
snowfox, a bit confused by your .380 comment, so do you have a Beretta 92-series, a Beretta 81-series or a Taurus 92-series? |
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May 17 2004, 11:03 PM
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#72
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
With body armor being as prevalent as tends to be in SR, the .455 is much more of a liability than it was in its day. A 260 grain LRN at 650 fps would easily be soaked by most body armor available today, let alone 60 years from now.
That's all fine and dandy if you don't have kids around. If the gun is locked up, it's going to take a few seconds to get to the safe and open it, another 5 seconds more (tops) to load it aren't likely to make much difference.
For which ammunition is still widely available. So far as I can tell, Fiocchi is the only company that still makes .455 Webley ammunition, and that is the standard MKII LRN load I discussed above, marketed as a specialty load. So you can get brass, but you'll have to develop new loads for the .455 (probably some approaching .45 ACP ballistics). Just seems like a lot of trouble and expense to incur for the sake of style. Of course, if your GM says modern ammunition is available, then it is, and there's nothing to worry about. |
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May 17 2004, 11:44 PM
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#73
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Guests |
Damn. Chalk it and the various other mistakes I made in posts over the last two weeks to finals. |
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May 18 2004, 10:10 AM
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#74
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
actually you can convert them to fire .45acp, it's quite common, in fact all i've seen at gun shows are ones converted to fire .45acp. anyway i'm sure you're aware that .45acp performance against body armor is just about as disappointing as .455 british.
anyway shadowrun situations are often that people with body armor are shooting at one another with handguns and not rifles or anything more powerful, this is bizarre and has nothing to do with a guns RL combat value. imagine Joe Runner throwing his nice Ed Brown 1911 into a cesspool after picking up an antiquated but powerful and deep penetrating combloc CZ52. |
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May 18 2004, 10:30 AM
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#75
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Going by the figures on Raygun's site, I doubt a 7.62x25mm TT 87gr FMJ @ 1,390fps would still penetrate a NIJ type III-A vest. It might require III-A, though, but I don't think it would perform better than a 9mmP 124gr FMJ @ 1,400fps. How common is III-A compared to other types these days?
The only kinds of RL handguns I could see penetrating any body armor in the 2060s are the überpowerful (.440 Cor-Bon and up) and the rather odd (FN Five-seveN and kin). Of those probably only the former will age well. Personally, I'd rather taken an assault rifle than a .500S&W revolver, simply out of pity for my wrists. |
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