 Brand name firearms, do you play around with them? |
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 May 18 2004, 11:07 AM
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#76
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752  |
standard .45ACP FMJ 230gr at 850fps is stopped by level I body armor
now about the tokarev round, it's basically the .30 Mauser with some internal case differences and and fired at difference pressures. the russians starting playing around with .30 mauser after WWI when germany and russia were both international pariahs. russia bought a lot of german mauser pistols and wanted to develop submachineguns also using the same round, so the cartridge was modified subtley and got hotter. how much different those pressures are is dependent on locality. the Czech variety is the hottest, it's a total subgun load at fires an 87gr. bullet at a little over 1600fps. it will penetrate IIIA, not III. i don't know if that outperforms 9mm 124gr at 1400fps on bodyarmor, but my hunch is "yes". I don't know how common IIIA is but it's the most powerful type that can be worn all the time. body armor used to be a little secret that most civilians didn't know about cops. i don't think it would be very polite conversation to ask officer friendly and i doubt that information is as readily available at issue sidearms, cop car models, etc. |
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May 18 2004, 11:39 AM
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#77
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
If it penetrates III-A, that means it outperforms 9mm 124gr at 1,400fps by far, because that 9mm will never, ever penetrate III-A unless you hit the same spot repeatedly. I'm a bit sceptical, but you never know. Anyway, not every cop wears III-A these days, that's for sure. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if even the 87gr FMJ at 1,390 fps penetrated level II. Thus if you knew you'd have to be shooting at people with body armor, but not very heavy body armor, you might be better off with the 7.62x25 TT than the .45ACP. Can you get a FN 5-7 in the US? Barring that, if I were Joe Runner, I'd get an AMT Automag III in .30 Carbine or even a SIG P226 in .357 SIG or, if all else fails, any ole .357 or .44 Magnum revolver. All of those will penetrate level II as well, and some might even penetrate III-A. While I can see how it might be intelligent for a criminal to pick a CZ52 in some cases over an M1911 IRL when his choices in weaponry are restricted, I really can't see that happening in 60 years. Body armor technology will probably have advanced sufficiently to beat any handgun caliber in common use now. The one type of handgun I could see being useful in that respect for the foreseeable future is a Thompson/Center Encore in .243Win/.25-06/.270Win/7mm-08/.308/.30-06. There are some problems with that approach, however... [Edit]That's funny. The current NIJ standards don't even mention .45ACP anywhere. The only quote I could find, on BulletProofMe.Com, mentions level II-A as capable of stopping .45ACP 230gr FMJs. Doesn't really matter, however, because II-A is the lightest in common use these days. Level I is mostly obsolete. One interesting point: Most level II body armor in existance will stop a 9mm 124gr FMJ at 1,400fps, they'll just fail the "deformation" criteria. Thus if a 7.62 87gr FMJ at 1,600fps penetrates III-A, it penetrates body armor an order of magnitude better than the 9mm.[/Edit] This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: May 18 2004, 11:56 AM |
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May 18 2004, 05:22 PM
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#78
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
yep, shadowrunners probably have their own bizarre little gunnie subculture worrying about penetrating body armor. .357 SIG (this will be one of the most popular) .38 Casull (.45acp necked down to 9mm) 7.62x25mm Tokarev (Czechified loadings or saboted .223 Timbs) .357 Magnum (some specialized loadings chuck a 90gr. at 2000fps, a very versatile cartridge) .357 Maximum (a magnumized magnum) 9mm Para (+P+ loadings are still very respectable) 9x23mm Winchester (the great underappreciated successor to .38 Super) .22 Remington Jet (a .357 Mag cartridge necked down to .22) .17 HMR (i'm not really sure but it's an interesting new cartridge) some oddball solutions Taurus Raging Thirty/Bee/Hornet .30 Carbine .218 Bee .22 Hornet AMT Automag III .30 carbine (sure but it's an AMT and won't work most of the time) Thompson Contender (for ambush situations) PS FN Five-Seven is now available to the public but the regular Armor Piercing ammo for it is not available so it's performance is marginally better than a .22 Magnum, however some enterprising handloader might be able to figure something out but this is pure speculation, i haven't heard a whisper on that front.
that's because that webpage isn't selling level I, they're selling IIA as the lowest option so of course they bump up the things that would have been listed as being stopped by level I.
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May 18 2004, 06:16 PM
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#79
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I haven't seen any place selling level I body armor, ever. ;) Still, it wouldn't surprise me at all if BulletProofMe.Com didn't have all their facts straight, and, like I said, it wouldn't matter because level I isn't really used anywhere.
I did remember something being said somewhere about the AMT Automags not being exactly reliable, but it was the first cheap semi-auto pistol platform I could remember for some really big cartridges. All of those might "do the trick" right now, IRL, but I have serious doubts whether anything but the rifle-caliber single-shots would in the 2060s. Of course advances in bullet technology might help some, but then I'm pretty confident some of those calibers will never have hi-tech armor piercing loadings made for them, not now and certainly not in 60 years. BTW, you can't get a T/C Contender in any of the calibers I mentioned above for the Encore. You can get it in a number of other calibers, though... This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: May 18 2004, 06:18 PM |
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May 18 2004, 06:43 PM
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#80
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 153 Joined: 16-February 04 From: Ohio, USA Member No.: 6,083 |
http://www.bullberry.com/TCbarrels.html
AE you can get it in even more cartridges if you go with some custom shops. The above is probably one of the better third party custom barrel maker's list for the T/C Contender. They also make Encore barrels in up to 416 Rigby. mcb |
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May 18 2004, 08:46 PM
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#81
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Ick. You can count me out. Even if it "only" manages ~2,000fps for a 410-grainers, that just can't be healthy. |
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May 19 2004, 12:12 AM
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#82
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
That's certainly a step forward. .45 ACP ammunition has better ballistic performance and is much, much more available than .455 Webley. Converting a cylinder would certainly be cheaper in the long run that making up batches of .455 Webley ammo. You'd also have to clip load it that way, which would make reloading faster. Alternately, I found that Speer makes 225, 250 and 260 grain JHPs in .454 that might work in the .455 Webley case. It should be possible to get that 225 grain bullet up to around 850 fps, into .45 ACP territory.
My point in that statement was not to say that .45 ACP will penetrate common body armor while .455 Webley won't, but that the .45 ACP performs so poorly against body armor that using something that would perform even worse, cost twice as much and be far less available would be a mistake for any professional shadowrunner to make.
True.
IIIA is the most common type of body armor used by police in the US, probably the world. It's the best protection available for concealable, soft body armor.
If it was, you'd think NIJ would be all over reporting that considering that the .45 ACP is one of the more popular handgun cartridges out there, but they don't. My guess is that if NIJ Level I does stop the .45 ACP 230 FMJ, it won't do it within backface deformation limits (1.44"), which is why NIJ doesn't qualify it. However, NIJ IIA will stop the .45 ACP 230 FMJ within backface limits. The same is probably true for the .455 Webley MKII, only the 260 LRN bullet is much more malleable than an FMJ; it will deform easier and is more likely to be stopped.
So is this 1,600 fps figure coming from a pistol or an SMG? The reason I'm asking is because if the 1,390 fps figure was taken from a pistol (and I'm pretty sure it was), the 1,600 fps figure, being a "total subgun load", was most likely the exact same load chronographed from a submachine gun. For example, if a Tokarev is generating the 1,390 fps figure, an sa23 (Czech 7.62x25mm submachine gun) is going to come pretty close to 1,600 fps with nothing but the extra 6.62" of barrel to account for it. Considering for +30 fps per inch of barrel (Understanding Firearm Ballistics says that's about average), I come out with 1588 fps. |
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May 19 2004, 01:06 AM
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#83
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
http://www.sb-usa.com/pistol_ammo_page.htm sellier and bellot the czech ammo manufacturer i spoke of, reports a 85gr pill at 1647fps (from a 4.75in Cz52 length barrel). skeptical of manufacturers numbers further research indicates around 1550fps with 85gr. that same cartridge comming out of a SMG or carbine length barrels could begin to put it into .30 carbine territory. Raygun, i have a hunch you got your 1,390fps figure from Frank Barnes' book?
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/46...653/x25ammo.htm http://members.nuvox.net/~on.melchar/tokarev/ CZ52, Shadowrunner Gun of the Future available today for $150
look it even has APDS ammo available for it! (especially if one where to use a green tip M885/SS109 military bullet) http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=108054 http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&t...highlight=timbs |
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May 19 2004, 01:47 AM
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#84
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Jeez, that is hot. Pretty close. Out of an sa23, you're likely to get something like 1740-1840 fps with that load. Certainly more likely to penetrate body armor than any other fairly common handgun cartridge, with the exception of a hot 110 grain .357 Mag load.
Most likely. I don't have the book with me right now or I'd tell you for sure.
Yeah. I have that Fortier article somewhere. IIRC, bullets over 50 grains (including the SS109) are so long that the cartridge won't load into magazines or feed through the CZ52 action. Might be able to use the 52 grain M995 AP bullet, though. More AP capability anyway. |
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May 19 2004, 07:22 AM
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#85
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
A customized CZ52 to Czech out: fast, cheap and easy -- is this a pistol we're talking about?
American Handgunner, Sept-Oct, 2002, by David M. Fortier http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m0BTT/159...cle.jhtml?term= |
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May 19 2004, 06:17 PM
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#86
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 320 Joined: 13-August 02 From: Austin, Republic of Texas (not CAS) Member No.: 3,094 |
wow.... I might have to look into one of those...
-Mike R. |
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May 20 2004, 06:17 AM
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#87
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
I guess it was 55 grains. There are pictures in the article of the .223 Timbs 55 grain FMJ loaded into a CZ52 with the slide removed. It looks like it barely fits in there. Anyway, I don't think the SS109 bullet would work too well. You'd be limiting powder capacity too much if you could manage to cram it into the CZ52 action.
Here's an interesting Russian job I found looking for things on a similar vein. |
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May 20 2004, 11:41 PM
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#88
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&t...&threadid=79139
93gr. at 1770fps! |
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May 21 2004, 12:25 AM
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#89
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I can't say I have any idea what kind of stress that causes on the gun or the shooter, but I gotta say that's pretty frightening. An even 876 Joules or 646.1 ft-lbs.
I keep wondering whether calibers more like 5.7x28 actually might become common just in order to penetrate body armor, or whether the need to have something a bit more serious against unarmored opponents would just cause a drive towards SLAP pistol ammunition for militaries. For example, would it be feasible to have something like a 10x25 with a saboted M993 7.62x51mm AP bullet as the projectile? The main concern is probably the feed at that point -- but assuming a theoretical future weapon that is designed to fire such rounds, what kind of practical limits are there to the cartridge length with conventional (short) recoil operated pistols, if any? If it were possible, what kind of performance could you expect with a 10mm Auto pistol with a saboted 126.6gr 7.62mm projectile, if it actually fed correctly? [Edit]Failing that, you could always sabot the same projectile onto a .44 Magnum or similar and fire it out of a revolver...[/Edit] This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: May 21 2004, 01:03 AM |
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May 21 2004, 03:06 AM
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#90
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Jesus. I'd like to see some chronograph readings on that stuff. Sounds like an accident waiting to happen. Some reloading data for the 7.62x25mm if you're interested. Thinking of picking up a CZ52 now. J&G and SOG have them in "very good plus" condition for $99 with a mag, holster and cleaning rod. J&G also has 416 rounds of Bulgarian FMJ for $55. Would be fun to play with, anyway. And otomik, I thought you might find this interesting if you haven't heard about it already... SOG has an Egyptian-made Beretta 1951 copy (licensed!) for $159.
I doubt that militaries will invest much into SLAP ammunition for pistols. Other than for very specialized applications, there's not a lot of point. And if you're going to bother to specialize, you might as well go all the way and make an entirely new cartridge and firearm to use it. If an armored combatant is close enough for you to have to whip out a pistol, either A) you can probably shoot them in a place where they're not armored, bypassing the need for AP, or B) it won't matter because you're fucked anyway, and that's that. Either go down swinging or give up and hope for the best. The limits imposed by a through-grip action mean that rifles will always be much, much better at penetrating body armor than pistols, no matter what kind of fantastic load you devise.
In order to get any kind of decent supersonic load out of something like that, the action would probably have to be lengthed beyond the point that would allow a through-grip magazine. At least one that was comfortable enough for the average human being to use. The other major limiting factor is pressure. You could really hot load a cartridge like that, like these guys are doing to the 7.62x25mm, but eventually, you're going to over do it and blow something up if you're not careful. Handguns are generally designed to be small and lightweight, which puts greater limits on how much pressure the material they're made out of can safely absorb before failing. The obvious way to remedy those problems is to just make the bullet smaller and lighter. The reason the 7.62x25mm can move so fast is because the bullet is all of 85-90 grains. Keep heading in that direction and you end up with the 4.6x30mm, 5.7x28mm, 6.5x25mm, .224 BOZ... PDW cartridges. |
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May 21 2004, 04:00 AM
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#91
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Bah! 165 grain at 1200 fps, That's good enough for me, because it happens to be what I load in my gun!
H&K: The Tommy Hilfiger of Firearms. :D |
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May 21 2004, 10:51 AM
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#92
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
The intention was really exactly that: An entirely new cartridge and firearm, designed so that it could take the advantage of high velocity saboted armor piercing rounds as well as large and heavy FMJs. The FMJ could be something like a full-caliber (10mm) 200 grain bullet at 1150-1200fps, whatever you can safely fire out of such a gun without putting too much stress on either the pistol or the shooter and keeping the recoil to a manageable level. The SLAP could be a 100 grain 7mm tungsten projectile, however fast you could get it out of the barrel. The only real advantage of that system I could think of is to give units which could conceivably have to engage targets with pistols a gun that is both adequately effective against unarmored targets and can be fully suppressed without making it useless, but can still penetrate at least some body armor when necessary by simply changing magazines. Maybe going caseless would help here. That could reduce the length of the cartridges enough to allow those awkwardly long SLAP rounds to feed properly without an extremely long action. It might reduce magazine capacity somewhat, however, which is a major detractor especially if it reduced to less than 10. |
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May 21 2004, 11:39 AM
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#93
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
Uh- guys, you do know you lost me a page ago right?
How about a Brown Bess firing at about 90 grains? |
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May 21 2004, 05:36 PM
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#94
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 407 Joined: 22-March 04 Member No.: 6,183 |
Damn right. I doubt anyone I have to fire on with my H&K (230gr .45) is going to be arguing with me about muzzle velocity :D
Old tricks are the best tricks... |
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May 22 2004, 07:57 PM
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#95
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
anglo-gun-ophile to bad the english don't make pistols anymore, do you make up for it by boiling your Beretta in hot water for cleaning then oiling it with worchestershire sauce? " it justs makes everything taste so…English" :silly: |
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May 22 2004, 10:55 PM
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#96
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Well, sorta. Those two combined with a H&K USP Tactical .45. ;) As for British pistols, I can think of at least the Spitfire. A CZ75-copy, supposedly well-made. Couldn't find any site that gives any real information on it, let alone the maker's home page. Whether a simple copy of a Czech weapon really counts British, I dunno. |
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May 23 2004, 09:30 PM
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#97
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Well, being a black powder musket, that would depend on your powder charge. I have no idea. But you would have to be a pretty creative cat to make a somewhat stable-flying, 90 grain .75" projectile. Not a whole lot of point. Buy a 9mm pistol and you'll be doing better.
Your "10x25 with a saboted M993 7.62x51mm AP bullet as the projectile" comment had me thinking that you intended to use an existing case loaded with an existing bullet. Researching it further, this particular combination seems pretty far from practical. Seated to a depth where the bullet does not exceed the 10x25mm's maximum OAL of 1.26", the M993 bullet with sabot would probably not leave enough room for even a decent subsonic powder charge. You would have to either A) increase the cartridge's OAL to allow room for a powder charge, which would be precluded by the depth of a semi-automatic pistol's through-grip magazine, or B) you would have to use a much smaller bullet, say one of .224 caliber. Considering our discussion so far, the 5.56mm M995 bullet would be the obvious choice. The .224 BOZ is the contemporary solution to a load like that, getting about 2,200 fps from a Glock 20, apparently. However, considering good old-fashioned AP loads like the one listed here, I think a sabot load for a handgun is a waste of time. If you were to devise a 100 grain, steel-cored bullet in .400", you could probably acheive your goal, no need for a sabot at all. Another option would be to use Flatau's tubular AP bullet design. Either way, the 10mm Auto case is designed to handle serious pressure. I think it would be possible to get 1,900+ fps out of a 10mm USP Tactical with a load like that without a lot of effort. Alliant lists a 135 grain load for the 10mm Auto at 1,530 fps. |
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May 23 2004, 10:21 PM
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#98
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Can't help it, the penetration claims of the GSh-18 seem like BS to me. Even assuming that upon hitting something hard the core (however large that is) cleanly separates, but retains almost all of the kinetic energy, a 65gr steel projectile at 1,900fps outperforming a 7.62mm 148gr FMJ at 2,750fps by a huge margin doesn't sound very credible.
Do you really believe that a 1-1.5mm reduction in diameter and the switch from FMJ to hardened steel construction would overcome the five-fold difference in kinetic energy that easily? As for the 10x25 and M993, I really shouldn't have used RL calibers and cartridges as examples. All I was really going for is the possibility of using as effective armor piercing ammunition as possible, whatever that would be, in any pistol design, real or fictious, that can also take advantage of the large-caliber, heavy bullets like I mentioned. The .224 BOZ seems interesting as an idea, but I'd really like to see whether you could do that by simply saboting the round into a normal 10mm cartridge, since the point was for it to not require any modification to the weapon. Is there some reason why it would work less well as a sabot than as a whole new necked down caliber? While a simple steel-cored bullet might work rather decently right now against soft body armor at least, my concerns reach at least 30+ years into the future, where it seems to me that body armor would be much better off against conventional small arms ammunition, relative to the situation now. To counter that advantage, you'd need ammunition types that penetrate not just pretty well but exceedingly well by current standards, which is why I was pushing a SLAP originally. The higher cost is the only real disadvantage I can think of over something like full-diameter steel-cored bullets, but penetration should be significantly better. It certainly doesn't have to be a SLAP. There might be a lot of new advances in small arms projectile technology coming up in the next 30 years, and any of those that have to do with penetration specifically might be applicable. I'm trying to read through the patent, but it's slow going... |
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May 23 2004, 11:40 PM
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#99
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Bullet construction is very important when dealing with armor penetration. NIJ Level III is not classified to protect against AP threats, period. At this level, bullets are still stopped because they are forced to deform against the vest material, increasing their surface area, which allows the vest material to better absorb and displace energy. Obviously, if the bullet doesn't deform and has a particularly pointed or sharp leading edge, it makes the job much more difficult. I don't know all there is to know about this 9x19mm PBP ammunition, but it certainly seems possible that it can outperform a 7.62x51mm M80 FMJ in terms of armor penetration. The 7.62x51mm M993 AP will outperform both of them, defeating even NIJ Level IV armor, IIRC.
Yes. Sabots take up more powder space than a bullet by itself would, which in the end translates to either less velocity or more pressure. Sabots can also have a deleterious effect on accuracy, but if the weapon is designed around the load, that should be relatively easy to work out. It would be more of an ammunition quality control issue than anything else.
If that's the case, then you can forget about handgun AP loads entirely, which is pretty much what everyone has already done (except the Russians).
It depends on what the penetrator is made of. If you didn't already, think about a tungsten carbide version of that Flatau bullet I linked to above. Installing Alternatiff and viewing the patent images will give you a better idea, I think. |
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May 24 2004, 11:40 AM
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#100
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
OK. I've never seen pictures of rifle FMJ rounds recovered from those vests, so I have no idea how much they deform. So, there's still a huge leap between the single-shot protection value of a level III and a level IV vest.
That's interesting. I could find a few other places mentioning that new AP rounds with tungsten cores could penetrate level IV armor. It certainly shows the superiority of the new construction type, if a 127gr bullet at 2950fps can do what a 166gr at 2850fps could never dream of at the same diameter.
I was thinking that this shouldn't be something you are absolutely stuck with? Compared to the necked down cartridge, there shouldn't be any loss of powder if you design the sabot so that it doesn't actually surround the whole penetrator at the same diameter. At the rear end of the penetrator, it could simply conform as closely to it as possibly, its only function to keep the sabot in place. The sabot could increase to full diameter only at the point where the case is crimped, and the full diameter part could actually be rather short, as long as the projectile will stay in place in the cartridge (no problem when caseless, I would imagine) and whatever requirements ballistics cause. Would the sabot have to be long to ensure sufficient rotation? Or something else?
I figured that anything that can penetrate any soft body armor by a clear margin now just might be capable of that in 10 years. Anything that can penetrate level III now is, in fact, pretty likely to penetrate most soft body armor still then and longer. One main reason why I started thinking about this is the potential full protection of a soldier, mostly against fragmentation but effectively against many handguns as well, allowed by certain new and upcoming discoveries such as the Shear-Thickening Fluids/Liquids. The articles about that one even said that, combined with a rather thin layer of soft body armor, it could be used to protect the limbs and other spots which require mobility. If 30 years from now every (western) soldier is effectively protected against anything up to 9mmP FMJs, or possibly much more than that, then something has to be done about the way we think of handguns and SMGs or they'll soon be faced with obsolescence in all militaries. And I somehow doubt that will happen, because of the requirements of some units, as well as the possibility of using technology that will certainly be developed for police and other non-military outfits in the (near-)future. I got too tired to try and make sense of the patent last night, I'll have another go at it soon... |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 26th September 2025 - 10:22 PM |
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