Injection Darts, Anybody else actually manage to parse that code? Options

[Kerenshara]

Here's a suggestion. As there are few types of armour that wouldn't stop a flying syringe in my opinion (even if it makes it through, surely there's a couple of kevlar fibres jammed up the fine nozzle of the dart), use the rules for Called Shots. If you have to bypass armour then that means the amount of armour someone is wearing is still a factor in getting them with a dart which makes sense. You could still keep the 2 net hits.

This would mean that you aren't as likely to get someone with a dart as you are with a bullet. And quite frankly, I like that.

K.

Well, you're already not as likely because of the extra success needed. I recall one of the first threads I posted in here was about bypassing armor with called shots, and the numbers get stupid in a hurry, even if there's no argument about how much you can bypass when.

As to the "kevlar fibres jammed up the fine nozzle" bit, that's not how Kevlar or Spectra or whatever actually work. Their tensile strength is such that the BEST a needle could hope to accomplish against the actual material itself was to cut it, once. There is no way it's going to get two cuts so that a piece gets wedged in the needle itself. That's almost the definition of the problem with these armors, and why armor piercing rounds are even more effective here than against solid materials: the threads deforem around (part for) a sufficiently narrow application of force rather than deforming in front to absorb the energy. For that matter, standard woven armor isn't particularly effective at stopping blades, either, which is why "knife guns" are illegal as drek. How do you size a piece of this kind of material in the first place? YOU CUT IT WITH A KNIFE (or a laser, more recently). That's part of why a lot of the high Ballistic rating armors have relatively poor Impact values.

Gah, is there a place I can just buy a PDF of the Street Samurai Catalog and have done with it?

[knasser]

[font="Lucida Console"]Well, you're already not as likely because of the extra success needed. I recall one of the first threads I posted in here was about bypassing armor with called shots, and the numbers get stupid in a hurry, even if there's no argument about how much you can bypass when.

One extra success isn't a big deal to me. Whereas the fact that your target is wearing an armoured trenchcoat should make a very big difference, imo. I'll grant you though, that I don't know a great deal about armour so my kevlar example might have been a poor one. I'm still not bowled over by the idea of armour-piercing syringes, though.

Anyway, Called Shot rules give me the effect that I personally want and are RAW.

I don't know where you could get the Street Samurai Cataglogue as PDF, but if you find somewhere, can you check for me and see if they have Shadows of Europe, too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

(Alternately, you could try and win one of tizoz's fiction competitions and ask for it as a prize).

K.

[Falanin]

But other than the paralysis inflicted upon opponents who have a phobia of needles, what have injection darts got that capsule rounds of DMSO and cyanide don't got?

One of the big things the dartguns have over capsule rounds is relative expense. You don't need to buy the DMSO for every shot. Also, please... Gamma Scopolamine for the win.

[Falconer]

Yeah, those rules and table stats are definately in conflict.

The only way the AP and rules are compatibible is if A. you must make a called shot to bypass armor (reduced by -2) AND B. you then need 2 net hits to dose the target. (which makes a lot of sense to me... no way dart gun should go through a ceramic ballistic plate for example).

Right now the AP ratings are pointless... the only thing I see there as RAW is roll ranged attack, did you get two net hits... good you dose him which doesn't seem quite right if the guys in say full military body armor w/ helmet and chem seal.


If it was me, I'd say just add the impact armor to the reaction pool in the ranged combat test minus the AP. But that's as much a house rule as anything listed so far.

Dartguns always struck me as an awesome surprise weapon, but a lousy primary combat gun.

[Octogenarihexate...]

So damage scales up like a normal weapon? Do you actually inflict damage from the dart itself?
(OK, a dart in the eye is going to suck.)

To answer your question, we do scale damage up with more successful rolls. However, in practice, our mad scientist PC has a total dice pool of about 14 with his Smartlink, and he tends to do less than 4 boxes of Stun damage with a decent hit (when he does any damage with it at all). The -2 AP goes toward Impact, as the dart's description says it would, and then if there's even one box of P or S damage, the drugs start a-flowin'. Since the gun, for our purposes, is limited to injection vector drugs, we don't worry too much about drug penetration unless the target happens to have universal nantidotes or something of that ilk.
So that means if the Doc wants someone down for the count, they may be eating a dose of Narcoject. Or Narcoject and Leal, if he doesn't want that guard to remember what hit him. Or he'll just suppress with his trusty Smartgun until someone gets unlucky. Whichever.

[Kerenshara]

To answer your question, we do scale damage up with more successful rolls. However, in practice, our mad scientist PC has a total dice pool of about 14 with his Smartlink, and he tends to do less than 4 boxes of Stun damage with a decent hit (when he does any damage with it at all). The -2 AP goes toward Impact, as the dart's description says it would, and then if there's even one box of P or S damage, the drugs start a-flowin'. Since the gun, for our purposes, is limited to injection vector drugs, we don't worry too much about drug penetration unless the target happens to have universal nantidotes or something of that ilk.
So that means if the Doc wants someone down for the count, they may be eating a dose of Narcoject. Or Narcoject and Leal, if he doesn't want that guard to remember what hit him. Or he'll just suppress with his trusty Smartgun until someone gets unlucky. Whichever.

OK, the Narcojet and Leal is a neat idea I hadn't considered, though the darts are pretty specific about the "one dose" thing, whereas a capsule could probably get away with it a lot easier.

[Octogenarihexate...]

OK, the Narcojet and Leal is a neat idea I hadn't considered, though the darts are pretty specific about the "one dose" thing, whereas a capsule could probably get away with it a lot easier.

For our table, we'd actually reversed that. As long as the drugs can be injected, they can be mixed, and the lowest Power takes precedence for most effects (for fast math, mainly. fr ex, the Doc's mix of Narcoject and Leal makes the Narcoject Power 6 instead of 10), and we'd restricted capsule rounds to one contact and/or inhalation chemical at a time (to restrict one of the previous PC's DMSO follies - at our table, if you want DMSO you get a squirtgun).
It keeps the Doc relatively balanced compared to his gunslinging counterparts; he's a source of possible one-shot stops but he doesn't overpower the rest of the team this way. And truthfully, that's the way the Doc's player likes to keep it.

[Marduc]

The Narcojet entry in the Street sam catalog states

name type concealability ammo damage weight cost
Narcoject pistol light 4 5© .. 1.5 600 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
Narcoject Rifle shotgun 10 © .. 3.25 1,700 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
.. Narcoject Round .. .15 200 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

.. Delivers one dose of the narcoject toxin (shadowrun rules, page 147). Resolve using standard Ranged Combat procedure; however, roll only Combat Pool dice against the target number (reduced by Impact Armor). If the target does not generate more net successes, make a Body Test against the toxin to reduce its effect, but Armor and Combat Pool do not apply.

It seems to me that the procedure for narcoject is :
Make ranged attack roll, defend with Rea + impact armor - AP (+ dodge in the case of full defence)

[HappyDaze]

Make ranged attack roll, defend with Rea + impact armor - AP (+ dodge in the case of full defence)

That sounds familiar...

[Kerenshara]

The Narcojet entry in the Street sam catalog states

name type concealability ammo damage weight cost
Narcoject pistol light 4 5© .. 1.5 600 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
Narcoject Rifle shotgun 10 © .. 3.25 1,700 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
.. Narcoject Round .. .15 200 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

.. Delivers one dose of the narcoject toxin (shadowrun rules, page 147). Resolve using standard Ranged Combat procedure; however, roll only Combat Pool dice against the target number (reduced by Impact Armor). If the target does not generate more net successes, make a Body Test against the toxin to reduce its effect, but Armor and Combat Pool do not apply.

It seems to me that the procedure for narcoject is :
Make ranged attack roll, defend with Rea + impact armor - AP (+ dodge in the case of full defence)

OK, thanks! Yes, that does sound like you've got it right. I think I can live with it too. Average Impact <8, so that's 2 theoretical hits you have to beat in addition to their actual dodge. But do they need another net hit above that from the rule I quoted?

([Ranged Attack Roll]-[Impact-2]-[REA]-[Possible Dodge]) target 2

Does that parse correctly?

[Marduc]

That seems about right.
That's what we get when the writers do a copy paste from an earlier edition and it gets edited wrong.

Maybe a dev could have a look at it.

[Kerenshara]

That seems about right.
That's what we get when the writers do a copy paste from an earlier edition and it gets edited wrong.

Maybe a dev could have a look at it.

What bothers me is that the equation I quoted up myself means to succeed against somebody wearing Impact Armor 8, with a REAction 6 who hasn't been shot at yet since their last action and who isn't "Dodging", you nee to roll an average of 6 successes. Even f they're only in Ballistic 5, you need 5 successes, and that's just crazy. That's the to threshold in the new SR4A for everything from sensor sweeps to detection spells to you-name-it. Even agains an average Jane, with REAction 3 wearing Impact 5, you're needing 4 hits. Under those rules, unless the other person's sporting significant chemical barrier protection, capsule rounds make a lot more sense. F delivering anything except NarcoJet^TM, where each hit negates a box of stun, even against chemical protection 6 most toxins/drugs are going to have the power to retain at least enough power to affect the target. Price for a Capsule round, including DMSO (but excluding payload) is 13¥ versus 7.5¥ for the dart, not enough to argue for the dart as a first choice, especially as it requires a dedicated skill to utilize properly.

If you DIDN'T have the extra net hit requirement, it'd be more viable, allowing for moderately skilled individuals to tag up more often.

[HappyDaze]

It's likely a lot easier to load your own darts with toxins than it is to mix DMSO and chemicals and then cast your own capsule rounds. Also, without a silencer, a capsule round - or at least the gun firing it - is a lot louder than a dart. OTOH, you can fire them out of the same weapon that shoots ExEx and APDS, so...

I feel that it really is OK for there to be a sub-par option, so I'm fine with darts being the 'old approach' to the problem and thus being a bit inferior.

[Kerenshara]

It's likely a lot easier to load your own darts with toxins than it is to mix DMSO and chemicals and then cast your own capsule rounds. Also, without a silencer, a capsule round - or at least the gun firing it - is a lot louder than a dart. OTOH, you can fire them out of the same weapon that shoots ExEx and APDS, so...

I feel that it really is OK for there to be a sub-par option, so I'm fine with darts being the 'old approach' to the problem and thus being a bit inferior.

The "old approach". I hadn't considered that.

But here's a few things we "decided" at our table re: capsule rounds.

They are subsonic by definition, thus they provide -1 to hear the shot or -2 with a silencer. OTOH because of that, they reduce the range gates of the weapon by 20%.

Incidentally, there was a capsule rifle in 2nd Ed (where the capsule rules first appeared) that used assault rifle ranges, was considered quieter than a silenced SMG (with existing rules at the time) and had nil recoil.

One thing that you could choose to rule is that due to the reduced "power" charges, the weapon effectively has 1 point of RC for each capsule round fired (so capsule on full auto is effectively recoilless). That never got to be an issue because I'm the only joker using capsule rounds at the table, and I refitted all my weapons with Electronic Firing to maximize the noise reduction. If your weapon isn't "caseless", there's no reason you couldn't stipulate there was a single-use compressed air cartridge with an enclosed air supply actuated by the firing pin inside the "casing". It would be about as silent as you get, but recoilless so you'd have to work the weapon's action yourself. Neat possibility for a revolver though, neh?

[Ol' Scratch]

The best way to get upset with the rules is to assume they're realistic rather than abstract. That said...

1) Armor (and most everything else) in Shadowrun is abstract. Successful hits don't necessarily mean you penetrated the armor, it means you hit the target despite their armor. It could have penetrated it, bypassed it, or hit a completely unprotected spot. That's also why armor such as Armored Jackets have such high ratings despite only covering a fraction of your body; the places it covers are extremely well protected, but you're sitll vulnerable in other areas. In most cases, successful hits against someone in an Armored Jacket hit an area other than your torso rather than penetrating the armor, whereas someone wearing Form-Fitting Body Armor had the armor penetrated instead.

2) Armor Penetration works the same way. It doesn't necessarily mean you're penetrating the armor, it could also mean that the attack has an easier time of slipping past it, that there's some kind of splash effect, or any other interpretation you want to use depending on the weapon/attack.

3) Special rules always supercede general rules. The rules for injection darts say that you need two net hits in order for the toxin to be delivered, which also means that those two net hits are used solely for determining whether or not the toxin is delivered. Any hits beyond those two are then used as normal for determining the actual effect.

4) Not all weapons are created equal. Some are flat-out better than others. This is true in real life just as it is in this game. Trying to argue that point is rather futile when anyone can point to any number of weapons (even weapons in the same category) that are clearly and without question superior to other ones.

[Kerenshara]

Doc F, first, nice to meet you! I have heard all about you before, but I think this is the first time we've crossed paths in a thread.

The best way to get upset with the rules is to assume they're realistic rather than abstract. That said...

1) Armor (and most everything else) in Shadowrun is abstract. Successful hits don't necessarily mean you penetrated the armor, it means you hit the target despite their armor. It could have penetrated it, bypassed it, or hit a completely unprotected spot. That's also why armor such as Armored Jackets have such high ratings despite only covering a fraction of your body; the places it covers are extremely well protected, but you're sitll vulnerable in other areas. In most cases, successful hits against someone in an Armored Jacket hit an area other than your torso rather than penetrating the armor, whereas someone wearing Form-Fitting Body Armor had the armor penetrated instead.

*Groans* That brings up relatively fresh memories about called shot rules to bypass armor. So far you and I are on exactly the same page - glad somebody else sees eye-to-eye with me.

2) Armor Penetration works the same way. It doesn't necessarily mean you're penetrating the armor, it could also mean that the attack has an easier time of slipping past it, that there's some kind of splash effect, or any other interpretation you want to use depending on the weapon/attack.

Sure.

3) Special rules always supercede general rules. The rules for injection darts say that you need two net hits in order for the toxin to be delivered, which also means that those two net hits are used solely for determining whether or not the toxin is delivered. Any hits beyond those two are then used as normal for determining the actual effect.

Right. But see, the real argument here (since none of the Devs have popped in yet with a comment) is if the simple rule as stated under the injection dart ammo, which I could live with, requiring two net hits is all the Devs had in mind. The problem is that there's ALSO a -2 AP mod in the tables, but the darts themselves deliver no actual damage. So why the mod? Was this an "oopsie" that didn't get caught? Or is it one part of an "extra" rule that I haven't managed to find in the Combat chapter yet? THAT'S what we're all talking about. For myself, I'd be just as happy to go with what they have next to the darts, because it makes taking the Exotic Ranged Weapon: Dartguns skill worthwhile.

4) Not all weapons are created equal. Some are flat-out better than others. This is true in real life just as it is in this game. Trying to argue that point is rather futile when anyone can point to any number of weapons (even weapons in the same category) that are clearly and without question superior to other ones.

No kidding. Addressing this speciffic part of your post, and ignoring my own OP, I've been trying to bring back a little more of the weapon individuality from older editions of the game (if in nothing else than concealability). I am a good way though the process of bringing the old weapons up to date, and it's still simple enough not to throw the rules out of whack - essentially a couple tweaks and an extra column.

The available armor choices make sense, and with the extras (and what you can extrapolate from them) in Arsenal, I have no issues with how 4th Ed is handling them.

And as to my OP, I just want to be clear what the Devs intended for the dart pistols (which I miss terribly as I used them to great effect in older editions).

[Falconer]

Here's the rub... I suspect they forgot to put an extra line in the text adding the impact armor to the opposed test.


Call it the naked dwarf problem. (here's some battery acid to sear your eyes).

We have a naked dwarf (w/ his innate reaction penalty), and we have an elf in full military body armor/helmet/chemseal.
Which is more likely to get hit by the dartgun assuming equal reaction?


By the strictest RAW, they're both equally easy. 2 net hits subdues them both. (though the dwarf is more likely to resist the toxin)
Therein lies the problem... a highly armored target wearing lots of protection (and a fair bit of ballistic plate) is just as easily jabbed as the naked dwarf.

There's a disconnect in the chart.. w/ an AP mod. In prior editions the targets impact armor was added to the difficulty of hitting w/ the dartgun in the first place.

I suspect the authors flubbed and forgot to include that portion of the attack roll.

[HappyDaze]

Falconer, we've already addressed this directly. It looks like you're just restating the problem without looking at the discussions and solutions offered.

[Falconer]

It was aimed at Dr Funkenstein's comments about abstraction and raw... and yes it was an intentional restatement of the problem in abstract terms.
It was intended as a simple restatement of the core problem and how the rules don't seem to reflect what seems to be intended by the chart. (RAW vs. RAI?!)


If anything, you're not helping the thread. I always read all posts in a thread before responding. You've obviously missed the fact that I posted before and gave suggestion back then (which I was later surprised to see was analogous to the SR3 method... I just said, try adding impact armor to reaction). Instead, you chose to post for what aims... just to make an ad hominem post criticizing another poster.

[Ol' Scratch]

The system is just determining things a little backwards so as to remain consistent with the other rules. The first test is to see if the toxin will affect the target, the second determines how well it does so based upon the armor the target was wearing (armor effectively reduces the DV of the toxin when using a dart). So no, a naked character will not be in the same boat as a heavily armored character with all other things being equal; the armored goon is going to have a lot more dice to resist the toxin. (And yes, I ignored your example because dwarves get a bonus to resisting such things. Nice try though.)

In other words, Shadowrun uses an abstract system in which the end effect is determined after you've resolved everything. If after you've resolved everything you have two net hits, the toxin affects the target as per the base rules modified by any additional hits versus the target's armor. If not, the dart got stuck in the armor, the dart hit at a funny angle and bounced off, the toxin was wholly resisted, or whatever other scenario the player and GM collaborate on when they determine what exactly happened as part of the resolution.

That said, see the very first line in my previous post. This is a perfect example of overcomplicating things in an attempt to make them realistic when they're completely and utterly abstract by design. All you do is piss yourself off over nothing.

[Marduc]

Also in the section descriping military combat armour, it states that this armour makes the character wearing it impervious to darts, as in that they can't penetrate it.

[HappyDaze]

WTF, Falconer?

If anything, you're not helping the thread.

Really?

I always read all posts in a thread before responding.

OK. I don't really have a way to verify your claim, but if it's that important to you, I'll just take your word on it. However, if you do read all of the posts, you'll see that I too was putting in some constructive input. It looks to me like you think I'm attacking you and you're just getting twitchy about it.

You've obviously missed the fact that I posted before and gave suggestion back then (which I was later surprised to see was analogous to the SR3 method... I just said, try adding impact armor to reaction).

No, I hadn't missed it. I was just referring to the one post that seemed to be a big step backwards in the discussion. I'd rather see the discussion move forward rather "reset to beginnig" - those that want to catch up can easily read from the beginnning of the thread.

Instead, you chose to post for what aims... just to make an ad hominem post criticizing another poster.

Let's get this clear: I didn't make an ad hominem post criticizing you - I was merely noting that your most recent post didn't appear to relate to the evolving discussion. If you feel that's an attack/insult, I apologize. I'm not really here to make friends, but I'm not trying to be a dick either.

[Prime Mover]

I just got my SR4A and been looking over the dartguns. Been flipping back and forth between Aug and SR4a dart weapons and ammo. Obviously two different stat mechanics. And no mechanic to explain them. Curious as to why no comment from powers that be. Errata worthy or just misunderstood?

[Kerenshara]

I just got my SR4A and been looking over the dartguns. Been flipping back and forth between Aug and SR4a dart weapons and ammo. Obviously two different stat mechanics. And no mechanic to explain them. Curious as to why no comment from powers that be. Errata worthy or just misunderstood?

That's exactly why I started the thread in the first place.

I mean, it's an exotic grapping weapon in the first place, so why make it virtually useless with a complicated set of rules and target numbers and thresholds and modifiers and... never mind. You get the idea.

Any chance of a Dev-ian angel winging by?

[Prime Mover]

Everyone seems to agree on how this should work. It would make sense then to drop the DV on Augmentation version of dart implant weapons and give them -2AP then? Opinion?