OK, I see the rule as written, but I just can’t parse the code. If all I need is two net hits on the opposed attack roll, why is there an AP rating? Why does it even matter if you use Ballistic or Impact armor? Did I miss something else important?



SR4A, P.323; Gear Listing, Ammunition



Injection Darts: For use with dart guns of various types—such as the Parashield pistol and rifle—injection darts carry a single dose of a drug or toxin. Effects depend on the drug payload, but to successfully deliver the payload and penetrate armor, the attacker needs two net hits on the Ranged Combat Opposed Test.



Special Weapons Damage AP Mode RC Ammo Avail Cost

Parashield Dart Pistol As Drug/Toxin –2 SA — 5 © 6R 600¥

Parashield Dart Rifle As Drug/Toxin –2 SA 0 10© 6R 1,700¥



Ammunition, per 10 shots Damage Modifier AP Armor Used Avail Cost

Injection Darts As Drug/Toxin — Impact 4R 75¥

G'Day Kerenshara

I parse it Thusly...

You shoot character...

Damage for the Dart is negligible, but you need to penetrate the impact armor of the target so a -2 AP would apply to the Impact Rating... if it is reduced to 0, and you have 2 net hits, it penetrates and delivers the dart payload... resolve drug/toxin as normal...

If you do not reduce the armor to 0, the dart lodges in the armor and does not penetrate to deliver the payload... if the target is heavily armored, you need to take a called shot to avoid the Impact Rating to bypass the armor's protection...

My 2 Cents...

No. By the rules that she quoted, all that is required is 2 net hits. You do not have to pierce the armor (contrary to how it seems to sound), and they do not even have to take damage; all that is required is 2 net hits.

I have no idea why an AP is listed, as an AP of +7 would allow you to deliver the toxin as long as you get 2 net hits.

WHich is why she wanted soem Parseing...
By the Strict Interpretation, you are indeed correct, but then, why the AP... clearly it is an example of an over-edited ruleset (Darts) that was never re-evaluated prior to publishing... It appears that there were two sets of information that were sorta smashed together, and something was indeed lost in the translation...

Keep the Faith...

The AP exists to simulate the actual danger of shooting a giant fricking needle at something. The rules only want 2 net hits though.

It seems that a better way to have worked that out (in order to maintain the fluff) would have been to state that the damage recieved had to be saved as if it were physical damage; trying to word it so you can understand: The damage recieved from an attack with the dart must not be reduced to stun damage as a result of the defender's Impact armor.

IE: modified damage from the attack must exceed the modified armor of the defender, otherwise the toxin does not deploy properly.

Does that make sense? And if it does, can you rehash it to make better sense?

It does make sense... the only problem I see is that the Darts have no inherent damage potential... None...
Damage is listed as "Pistol" and "Rifle"... which to me could mean that they intended to have them inflict damage based upon the frame that was being used (4p for Light Pistols, 9p for the PSJJ Rifle)... this could lead to some Inconsistencies, however, as generally, Dart Guns inflict no real damage when used, and your result is because of the Toxin/Drug... To Furhter confuse the issue, they throw in the requirement of 2 Net Hits...

The ambiguity that is the ruleset for Dart Weapons is frustrating... We (My Table) actively use the rules for Capsule Rounds with a -2 AP (vs. the positive AP) and then declare that if you manage to inflict a single point of Stun Damage through the Armor, it has penetrated... Though I do prefer the interpretation I provided earlier, as it seems more "real" to me, but that is just me... what we actually use has been working pretty well so far...

EDIT: And I do think that I see where you are coming from... Damage in your interpretation relies strictly upon placement (Damage of 0 + Net Hits for Modified Damage Potential)... I think that I could get on board with that as well...

OK, you two (thanks for taking the time to answer) seem to be circling the same point I was chewing on. Listening to your discourse reminded me however, that in 1st/2nd Ed, there was a speciffic mechanic for penetrating the armor and that at least one point had to get through. Is there a chance somebody who is reading this thread is willing to dive into the older rule books and find out for me? Or, conversely, if one of the Dev's is hanging out, we seem to have conflicting intentions as presented. In reality, an injection dart has a fiendishly easy time penetrating "soft" body armors, because at heart, they are all woven fabrics. The reason for the "2 Net Hit" rule would imply that "grazing" hits that normally still inflict damage with a standard bullet wouldn't allow the needle to strike perpendicular to the weave and contact the skin. In other words, you just need a "solid" hit. Now, some of the older fluff indicated modern armors were a combination of gel, soft and SOLID PLATES over vital areas. If that's part of it, I would expect you have to actually penetrate armor, where that -2 AP would come into play, and you'd need to inflict at least one point of unresisted damage, or you could say that the final adjusted DV had to exceed the base armor rating, modified by the -2 in order to get through. But for either of those to apply, you'd need a base damage value for the Parashield Pistol & Rifle. (I went back to a copy of the old books I still have access too and found that the Narcojet Pistol was concealability 7, equivalent to a big holdout pistol and the Narcojet Rifle was a 4, equivalent to a big SMG or really compact assault rifle.)

In the end, I just treated them like the cyber dartguns from Augmentation. So they've got a damage code (3P pistol, 4P rifle) and need to score at least one box of damage to inject their toxin.

Seems to have worked out so far; my group's "mad scientist" PC sure loves his dartguns.

So damage scales up like a normal weapon? Do you actually inflict damage from the dart itself?
(OK, a dart in the eye is going to suck.)

Not as much as drugs in the eye is going to suck! Even a syringeful of saltwater would be positively crippling.

But other than the paralysis inflicted upon opponents who have a phobia of needles, what have injection darts got that capsule rounds of DMSO and cyanide don't got? I feel like it's a lot easier to coat an opponent with paintballs o' poison than poke him/her with a flying needle.

I think the AP is added to the toxin's penetration. Would be logical that an injected poison works better than sprayed stuff.

2 NET hits means after soak. I.E. there's -2 AP, so you need to break it down thusly:

You roll your attack. You get say 3 successes. That's GROSS Hits. Not Net.
They roll to soak (defense gives them 1, and armor soak gives them 1). You get 1 NET hits. You fail to deliver the toxin.

You roll your attack. You get 6 successes. That's GROSS hits, Not Net.
They roll to soak (defense gives them 2 armor soak gives them 2). You get 2 NET hits. You deliver the toxin.

It's NET, not GROSS. Therefore, it's the total number of hits AFTER defense and Soak. If it said 2 GROSS hits, you'd then just need to get 2 hits period to do it. NET means after deductions. I.E. Your salary is your GROSS income, your Actual take home (after taxes and insurance ect...) is your NET income.

I agree with Pollution's line of thought and that would be logical way to handle it, but that wording just makes things not so simple. It just states the opposed combat test that doesn't involve soaking.

Because capsule has to get past the armor's chemical protection (if any).

What has me unhappy is that it says the Ranged Combat Opposed Test, not the Damage Resistance Test. That means armor never comes near it. It's my attack roll opposed by their REA+[Dodge if they choose Full Defense]. So all that means is that I need a solid hit (Beat their defense by 2), which has nothing to do with armor whatsoever.

Pollution's suggestion - an I think it's a good one - is that the target's Impact Armor (reduced by the AP of the dart, and also by called shots to avoid armor) adds to the target's dice pool to avoid the Ranged Attack from a dart. In the end, the attacker needs 2 net hits to inject the toxin. This is simple and really solves the problem well.

The only problem here is that chainmail armor is almost all Impact protection, and it's WORSE than useless against a dart. But I guess it MIGHT explain what the Dev's had in mind. At least it explains the AP commentary. *shrug* I'm just generally fond of the things from times past and was annoyed they weren't in the first printings.

However, there is no soak of damage, as there is no damage capability of the dart... you can dodge and not get hit, but that is different than soak...

However, I do like using hte Dart Damages as laid out in Augmentation, which would indeed make sense...

Well, I can see how it'd be totally useless, but not how it could be worse than that unless it actively pushes the dart into your body.

Besides... chain mail? Are we really expecting chain mail to be any good at stopping tiny, needlepointed darts? I can't think of a better type of weapon to defeat such armour, personally.

And a needle doesn't? Way I see it, depending on the armour, it might be easier to get around it with a spray (f'rexample, heavy armor with gaps between plates) or pierce it with a needle (such as a hazmat suit, all plastic no stopping power).

Idea! In both capsule rounds and darts, pretend the toxin's power is the DV, and the toxin's AP is the attack's AP (-2 in the case of darts). Capsule rounds are "soaked" with body + half impact armour + chemical protection (and will still be effective with 0 net hits), whereas darts are "soaked" with body + impact armour but ignore external chemical protection (like hazmat suits and armour with chemical protection), since they just pierce it. Internal stuff like toxin extractors would of course add dice to "soaking" either one.

Does that sound like a reasonable system?

That's a rather uncommon piece of armor, but even here the mail has a 'synth-woolen' undergarment and still increases the thickness that the dart has to penetrate. I'm certainly willing to overlook a single piece of armor's particulars in order to make a simple ruling. If it matters, you'll also note that the high Impact rating of a chain shirt also makes it especially effective against electrical damage too...

I always thought that the AP value of injection-style attacks was to counter some of the chemical protection rating of your armor.

i.e. You get hit with a -2 AP attack, and you have 4 points of chemical protection on your armor. So to resist the effect, you roll your Body/Will + (4 protection - 2 AP).

Metallic armour offers no protection against electricity. Of course, no armor is ever specified as being sufficiently metallic for this to apply. The "mail" part of chain mail is metallic, sure, but how much protection does the undergarment offer? I'd still rule chain mail doesn't work, though.

Here's a suggestion. As there are few types of armour that wouldn't stop a flying syringe in my opinion (even if it makes it through, surely there's a couple of kevlar fibres jammed up the fine nozzle of the dart), use the rules for Called Shots. If you have to bypass armour then that means the amount of armour someone is wearing is still a factor in getting them with a dart which makes sense. You could still keep the 2 net hits.

This would mean that you aren't as likely to get someone with a dart as you are with a bullet. And quite frankly, I like that.

K.

Worse than useless because the rounded links will have a tendency to turn the dart inwards further; In a vehicle, it's clled a shot trap. You shoot at the thing, and the heavier armor actually deflects the shot into a weaker area. A big (and I mean BIG) example of this was the WWII German Königstiger tank with the original Porsche turret, which had a tendency to deflect shots off the lower gun mantle straight down into the top decking of the hull. It's one of the reasons that spikes on medieval armor are actually BAD things: they can help guide a blow into a more solid hit.


No, a needle is PENETRATING the barrier, as in poking through. A capsule round has to "soak" through, which is what the barrier is supposed to stop in the first place. Think Goretex^TM. It offers virtually no protection from needles but will stop liquids from passing through.


Hmmmm... That seems overly complex. And it leaves aside that the capsule rounds are listed as having [ - (stun)] for their DV modifier, implying that they still inflict a wound above and beyond the payload. That means making potentially three soak tests for them: physical damage soak, chemical barrier soak, and body resistance/soak. I just can't get behind that. And the basic idea that you actually need a "good hit" with the darts inherently makes sense to me; the margin of success on he to-hit roll needs to be higher.

Wait, who am I kidding here? This is the 6^th World. *smacks self in forehead* This isn't just an ARMOR materials sciences problem, it's a PAYLOAD materials science problem. We aren't limited to a feather stabilized hypodermic here. There's no reason the "dart" couldn't be specially designed and constructed to defeat light armor. These things cost almost four times what normal ammunition does, and they don't include powder or primer! That's a lot of scratch for a simple dart. And a lot of the "plates" in armor are just "soft" armor laminated as opposed to ceramics or similar, and jel can be poked through at least as easily as woven armor. Carbon fiber is great stuff in tensile strength, but it's nowhere near as strong when you try to poke through it perpendicular to the fiber weave.

Heavier armor should still contribute SOMETHING to the process, though. Would somebody help me out and take a peek in the original Street Samurai Catalog? That's where the original Narcojet^TM Pistol and Rifle appeared. What was the actual sidebar rule THERE? (I need to break down and just buy another copy of the original 1st Ed book.)

Well, you're already not as likely because of the extra success needed. I recall one of the first threads I posted in here was about bypassing armor with called shots, and the numbers get stupid in a hurry, even if there's no argument about how much you can bypass when.

As to the "kevlar fibres jammed up the fine nozzle" bit, that's not how Kevlar or Spectra or whatever actually work. Their tensile strength is such that the BEST a needle could hope to accomplish against the actual material itself was to cut it, once. There is no way it's going to get two cuts so that a piece gets wedged in the needle itself. That's almost the definition of the problem with these armors, and why armor piercing rounds are even more effective here than against solid materials: the threads deforem around (part for) a sufficiently narrow application of force rather than deforming in front to absorb the energy. For that matter, standard woven armor isn't particularly effective at stopping blades, either, which is why "knife guns" are illegal as drek. How do you size a piece of this kind of material in the first place? YOU CUT IT WITH A KNIFE (or a laser, more recently). That's part of why a lot of the high Ballistic rating armors have relatively poor Impact values.

Gah, is there a place I can just buy a PDF of the Street Samurai Catalog and have done with it?

One extra success isn't a big deal to me. Whereas the fact that your target is wearing an armoured trenchcoat should make a very big difference, imo. I'll grant you though, that I don't know a great deal about armour so my kevlar example might have been a poor one. I'm still not bowled over by the idea of armour-piercing syringes, though.

Anyway, Called Shot rules give me the effect that I personally want and are RAW.

I don't know where you could get the Street Samurai Cataglogue as PDF, but if you find somewhere, can you check for me and see if they have Shadows of Europe, too.

(Alternately, you could try and win one of tizoz's fiction competitions and ask for it as a prize).

K.

One of the big things the dartguns have over capsule rounds is relative expense. You don't need to buy the DMSO for every shot. Also, please... Gamma Scopolamine for the win.

Yeah, those rules and table stats are definately in conflict.

The only way the AP and rules are compatibible is if A. you must make a called shot to bypass armor (reduced by -2) AND B. you then need 2 net hits to dose the target. (which makes a lot of sense to me... no way dart gun should go through a ceramic ballistic plate for example).

Right now the AP ratings are pointless... the only thing I see there as RAW is roll ranged attack, did you get two net hits... good you dose him which doesn't seem quite right if the guys in say full military body armor w/ helmet and chem seal.


If it was me, I'd say just add the impact armor to the reaction pool in the ranged combat test minus the AP. But that's as much a house rule as anything listed so far.

Dartguns always struck me as an awesome surprise weapon, but a lousy primary combat gun.

To answer your question, we do scale damage up with more successful rolls. However, in practice, our mad scientist PC has a total dice pool of about 14 with his Smartlink, and he tends to do less than 4 boxes of Stun damage with a decent hit (when he does any damage with it at all). The -2 AP goes toward Impact, as the dart's description says it would, and then if there's even one box of P or S damage, the drugs start a-flowin'. Since the gun, for our purposes, is limited to injection vector drugs, we don't worry too much about drug penetration unless the target happens to have universal nantidotes or something of that ilk.
So that means if the Doc wants someone down for the count, they may be eating a dose of Narcoject. Or Narcoject and Leal, if he doesn't want that guard to remember what hit him. Or he'll just suppress with his trusty Smartgun until someone gets unlucky. Whichever.

OK, the Narcojet and Leal is a neat idea I hadn't considered, though the darts are pretty specific about the "one dose" thing, whereas a capsule could probably get away with it a lot easier.

For our table, we'd actually reversed that. As long as the drugs can be injected, they can be mixed, and the lowest Power takes precedence for most effects (for fast math, mainly. fr ex, the Doc's mix of Narcoject and Leal makes the Narcoject Power 6 instead of 10), and we'd restricted capsule rounds to one contact and/or inhalation chemical at a time (to restrict one of the previous PC's DMSO follies - at our table, if you want DMSO you get a squirtgun).
It keeps the Doc relatively balanced compared to his gunslinging counterparts; he's a source of possible one-shot stops but he doesn't overpower the rest of the team this way. And truthfully, that's the way the Doc's player likes to keep it.

The Narcojet entry in the Street sam catalog states

name type concealability ammo damage weight cost
Narcoject pistol light 4 5© .. 1.5 600
Narcoject Rifle shotgun 10 © .. 3.25 1,700
.. Narcoject Round .. .15 200

.. Delivers one dose of the narcoject toxin (shadowrun rules, page 147). Resolve using standard Ranged Combat procedure; however, roll only Combat Pool dice against the target number (reduced by Impact Armor). If the target does not generate more net successes, make a Body Test against the toxin to reduce its effect, but Armor and Combat Pool do not apply.

It seems to me that the procedure for narcoject is :
Make ranged attack roll, defend with Rea + impact armor - AP (+ dodge in the case of full defence)

That sounds familiar...

OK, thanks! Yes, that does sound like you've got it right. I think I can live with it too. Average Impact <8, so that's 2 theoretical hits you have to beat in addition to their actual dodge. But do they need another net hit above that from the rule I quoted?

([Ranged Attack Roll]-[Impact-2]-[REA]-[Possible Dodge]) target 2

Does that parse correctly?

That seems about right.
That's what we get when the writers do a copy paste from an earlier edition and it gets edited wrong.

Maybe a dev could have a look at it.

What bothers me is that the equation I quoted up myself means to succeed against somebody wearing Impact Armor 8, with a REAction 6 who hasn't been shot at yet since their last action and who isn't "Dodging", you nee to roll an average of 6 successes. Even f they're only in Ballistic 5, you need 5 successes, and that's just crazy. That's the to threshold in the new SR4A for everything from sensor sweeps to detection spells to you-name-it. Even agains an average Jane, with REAction 3 wearing Impact 5, you're needing 4 hits. Under those rules, unless the other person's sporting significant chemical barrier protection, capsule rounds make a lot more sense. F delivering anything except NarcoJet^TM, where each hit negates a box of stun, even against chemical protection 6 most toxins/drugs are going to have the power to retain at least enough power to affect the target. Price for a Capsule round, including DMSO (but excluding payload) is 13¥ versus 7.5¥ for the dart, not enough to argue for the dart as a first choice, especially as it requires a dedicated skill to utilize properly.

If you DIDN'T have the extra net hit requirement, it'd be more viable, allowing for moderately skilled individuals to tag up more often.

It's likely a lot easier to load your own darts with toxins than it is to mix DMSO and chemicals and then cast your own capsule rounds. Also, without a silencer, a capsule round - or at least the gun firing it - is a lot louder than a dart. OTOH, you can fire them out of the same weapon that shoots ExEx and APDS, so...

I feel that it really is OK for there to be a sub-par option, so I'm fine with darts being the 'old approach' to the problem and thus being a bit inferior.

The "old approach". I hadn't considered that.

But here's a few things we "decided" at our table re: capsule rounds.

They are subsonic by definition, thus they provide -1 to hear the shot or -2 with a silencer. OTOH because of that, they reduce the range gates of the weapon by 20%.

Incidentally, there was a capsule rifle in 2nd Ed (where the capsule rules first appeared) that used assault rifle ranges, was considered quieter than a silenced SMG (with existing rules at the time) and had nil recoil.

One thing that you could choose to rule is that due to the reduced "power" charges, the weapon effectively has 1 point of RC for each capsule round fired (so capsule on full auto is effectively recoilless). That never got to be an issue because I'm the only joker using capsule rounds at the table, and I refitted all my weapons with Electronic Firing to maximize the noise reduction. If your weapon isn't "caseless", there's no reason you couldn't stipulate there was a single-use compressed air cartridge with an enclosed air supply actuated by the firing pin inside the "casing". It would be about as silent as you get, but recoilless so you'd have to work the weapon's action yourself. Neat possibility for a revolver though, neh?

The best way to get upset with the rules is to assume they're realistic rather than abstract. That said...

1) Armor (and most everything else) in Shadowrun is abstract. Successful hits don't necessarily mean you penetrated the armor, it means you hit the target despite their armor. It could have penetrated it, bypassed it, or hit a completely unprotected spot. That's also why armor such as Armored Jackets have such high ratings despite only covering a fraction of your body; the places it covers are extremely well protected, but you're sitll vulnerable in other areas. In most cases, successful hits against someone in an Armored Jacket hit an area other than your torso rather than penetrating the armor, whereas someone wearing Form-Fitting Body Armor had the armor penetrated instead.

2) Armor Penetration works the same way. It doesn't necessarily mean you're penetrating the armor, it could also mean that the attack has an easier time of slipping past it, that there's some kind of splash effect, or any other interpretation you want to use depending on the weapon/attack.

3) Special rules always supercede general rules. The rules for injection darts say that you need two net hits in order for the toxin to be delivered, which also means that those two net hits are used solely for determining whether or not the toxin is delivered. Any hits beyond those two are then used as normal for determining the actual effect.

4) Not all weapons are created equal. Some are flat-out better than others. This is true in real life just as it is in this game. Trying to argue that point is rather futile when anyone can point to any number of weapons (even weapons in the same category) that are clearly and without question superior to other ones.

Doc F, first, nice to meet you! I have heard all about you before, but I think this is the first time we've crossed paths in a thread.


*Groans* That brings up relatively fresh memories about called shot rules to bypass armor. So far you and I are on exactly the same page - glad somebody else sees eye-to-eye with me.


Sure.


Right. But see, the real argument here (since none of the Devs have popped in yet with a comment) is if the simple rule as stated under the injection dart ammo, which I could live with, requiring two net hits is all the Devs had in mind. The problem is that there's ALSO a -2 AP mod in the tables, but the darts themselves deliver no actual damage. So why the mod? Was this an "oopsie" that didn't get caught? Or is it one part of an "extra" rule that I haven't managed to find in the Combat chapter yet? THAT'S what we're all talking about. For myself, I'd be just as happy to go with what they have next to the darts, because it makes taking the Exotic Ranged Weapon: Dartguns skill worthwhile.


No kidding. Addressing this speciffic part of your post, and ignoring my own OP, I've been trying to bring back a little more of the weapon individuality from older editions of the game (if in nothing else than concealability). I am a good way though the process of bringing the old weapons up to date, and it's still simple enough not to throw the rules out of whack - essentially a couple tweaks and an extra column.

The available armor choices make sense, and with the extras (and what you can extrapolate from them) in Arsenal, I have no issues with how 4th Ed is handling them.

And as to my OP, I just want to be clear what the Devs intended for the dart pistols (which I miss terribly as I used them to great effect in older editions).

Here's the rub... I suspect they forgot to put an extra line in the text adding the impact armor to the opposed test.


Call it the naked dwarf problem. (here's some battery acid to sear your eyes).

We have a naked dwarf (w/ his innate reaction penalty), and we have an elf in full military body armor/helmet/chemseal.
Which is more likely to get hit by the dartgun assuming equal reaction?


By the strictest RAW, they're both equally easy. 2 net hits subdues them both. (though the dwarf is more likely to resist the toxin)
Therein lies the problem... a highly armored target wearing lots of protection (and a fair bit of ballistic plate) is just as easily jabbed as the naked dwarf.

There's a disconnect in the chart.. w/ an AP mod. In prior editions the targets impact armor was added to the difficulty of hitting w/ the dartgun in the first place.

I suspect the authors flubbed and forgot to include that portion of the attack roll.

Falconer, we've already addressed this directly. It looks like you're just restating the problem without looking at the discussions and solutions offered.

It was aimed at Dr Funkenstein's comments about abstraction and raw... and yes it was an intentional restatement of the problem in abstract terms.
It was intended as a simple restatement of the core problem and how the rules don't seem to reflect what seems to be intended by the chart. (RAW vs. RAI?!)


If anything, you're not helping the thread. I always read all posts in a thread before responding. You've obviously missed the fact that I posted before and gave suggestion back then (which I was later surprised to see was analogous to the SR3 method... I just said, try adding impact armor to reaction). Instead, you chose to post for what aims... just to make an ad hominem post criticizing another poster.

The system is just determining things a little backwards so as to remain consistent with the other rules. The first test is to see if the toxin will affect the target, the second determines how well it does so based upon the armor the target was wearing (armor effectively reduces the DV of the toxin when using a dart). So no, a naked character will not be in the same boat as a heavily armored character with all other things being equal; the armored goon is going to have a lot more dice to resist the toxin. (And yes, I ignored your example because dwarves get a bonus to resisting such things. Nice try though.)

In other words, Shadowrun uses an abstract system in which the end effect is determined after you've resolved everything. If after you've resolved everything you have two net hits, the toxin affects the target as per the base rules modified by any additional hits versus the target's armor. If not, the dart got stuck in the armor, the dart hit at a funny angle and bounced off, the toxin was wholly resisted, or whatever other scenario the player and GM collaborate on when they determine what exactly happened as part of the resolution.

That said, see the very first line in my previous post. This is a perfect example of overcomplicating things in an attempt to make them realistic when they're completely and utterly abstract by design. All you do is piss yourself off over nothing.

Also in the section descriping military combat armour, it states that this armour makes the character wearing it impervious to darts, as in that they can't penetrate it.

WTF, Falconer?

Really?

OK. I don't really have a way to verify your claim, but if it's that important to you, I'll just take your word on it. However, if you do read all of the posts, you'll see that I too was putting in some constructive input. It looks to me like you think I'm attacking you and you're just getting twitchy about it.

No, I hadn't missed it. I was just referring to the one post that seemed to be a big step backwards in the discussion. I'd rather see the discussion move forward rather "reset to beginnig" - those that want to catch up can easily read from the beginnning of the thread.

Let's get this clear: I didn't make an ad hominem post criticizing you - I was merely noting that your most recent post didn't appear to relate to the evolving discussion. If you feel that's an attack/insult, I apologize. I'm not really here to make friends, but I'm not trying to be a dick either.

I just got my SR4A and been looking over the dartguns. Been flipping back and forth between Aug and SR4a dart weapons and ammo. Obviously two different stat mechanics. And no mechanic to explain them. Curious as to why no comment from powers that be. Errata worthy or just misunderstood?

That's exactly why I started the thread in the first place.

I mean, it's an exotic grapping weapon in the first place, so why make it virtually useless with a complicated set of rules and target numbers and thresholds and modifiers and... never mind. You get the idea.

Any chance of a Dev-ian angel winging by?

Everyone seems to agree on how this should work. It would make sense then to drop the DV on Augmentation version of dart implant weapons and give them -2AP then? Opinion?