No such angels.

Dice Pools
Attack 11
Defense 8

Attacker rolls 5 success's (thanks to edge).
Defender rolls 1 success.
Attackers modified total is now 4.
Defenders modified armor rating 4/2 or 2/0 after AP from dart.
Attackers success's exceed targets armor rating by 2 or better allows him to now apply injected chemical.

Was this the intended method?

OK, put that way, I guess that could work, AND it accounts for both the text and the isted AP value.

But it's still nigh useless because against any armor 6 and higher, which still isn't particularly heavy yet, you need 6 Hits, which is beyond even the highest Threshold listed in SR4A.

If you're carrying a dedicated weapon, and have to take an exotic weapons skill to use it, AND agter the target "dodges" you still need that extra Hit to succeed AND heavy armors are expressly listed as being impervious to darts... that's useless. Against a surprised target, defaulting you'd still have problems using the thing if they weren't in armor at all!

I think that, given everything that's been advanced here, the -2 AP is a goof, and that the text is probably what they meant, because 2 Hits is still a challenge for the "average" person (read: non-augmented non-specialist), and it still requires taking a dedicated exotic weapons skill. The clincher for me is that some armors are being listed as impervious, which tells us that all other armors must be, by default, vulnerable to a 2070's injection dart. If all non-exempt armors are vulnerable AND we keep in mind that 2 Net Hits for anybody with "normal" range statistics is quite challenging if the target isn't caught flat-footed. Even the much-vaunted NarcoJet^TM only inflicts UP TO 10 Stun Damage, and an "average" sapiens sapiens is going to get 1 Hit to resist on average, reducing that to 9S, leaving them concious but woozy since the dart itself does nothing. That tells us you've got to double-tap the target to have a high likelyhood of dropping them in one round. A capsule pistol round, on the other hand, also inflicts gel round Stun Damage on impact, raising the likelyhood of a one-shot knockout dramatically.

I like Prime Mover's interpretation. It makes use of the AP listing of the dart, and insures that it's mostly useful against unarmored targets. Plus you can always make a called shot to bypass armor, especially if you allow people to do "partial" armor reduction (i.e. taking a 3 dice penalty to ignore 3 points of the target's armor).

I've never heard of this "partial bypass" rule.

It makes use of the AP listing, but takes the weapon to "pointless". Unless you're handing it to a REALLY specialized Adept who has extra ranks in the (exotic) skill, you're wasting a LOT of nuyen on misses. You'd just be better off focusing on pistols and load up with capsule/DMSO/NarcoJet^TM rounds and call it a day.

THAT is my objection.

OTOH, we could just ask for a FAQ/Erata... Bueller? Bueller?

Don't think it's a bypass , it's part of called shot rule. Subtract 1 to 4 dice from attack and add it to damage. Pg 161 SR4A Called Shots

Ah, but darts don't DO damage...

hmm, this is tricky. shouldn't you be using ballistic armor to resist something shot out of a heavy pistol or rifle? should a dart be able to bypass natural armor and magic armor unchecked as well? I missed the dart gun, and I don't want to NERF it, but its just a dart gun. I hope A dev can chime in here.

These are specifically compressed-air darts that specify using Impact armor, and you can't fire them from a conventional gun.

I read the description of the guns and the description of the ammo, and saw nothing specifying impact armor. These weapons are also throwing darts at heavy pistol or sporting rifle ranges, and I feel that that is enough kinetic energy to qualify as a ballistic attack(of course,literaly speaking, a thrown knife is a ballistic attack, but in game terms).

SR4A 160:

Ballistic Armor

Ballistic armor protects against projectiles that deliver large amounts of kinetic energy to a small area in short amounts of time, such as bullets, bolts, and arrows

And with that definition, Impact would be the way to go then, as the Injection Darts DO NOT DO ANY DAMAGE, thus no large amounts of Kinetic Energy (Hey I did not make the rules here)... Which would make it Impact Armor (Assuming you were worried about Armor)

Impact armor refers to less kinetic transfer, It lists blunt projectiles(kind of the opposite of a dart) explosives, melee weapons. I don't feel this fits the description.
Grenades do a lot of damage, should they be ballistic?

Grenades still do damage (and thus Armor is relevant), and have very little Kinetic Energy imparted by the explosion relative to the amount of Kinetic Energy inherent in a ballistic projectile thus against Impact armor... besides, most "Ballistic" armor is highly ineffecient when it comes to damage inflicted by sharp cutting implements or explosions, thus the Impact armor rating inherent in the Armor makeup...

Darts (for all intents and purposes) are considered "Sharp" implements, much like a dagger would be... this is the same rationale that allows the Slivergun and Flechette ammunition to use the Impact armor rating rather than the ballistic armor rating...

But it is entirely academic anyway, as apparently, you do not soak damage with a dart... 2 Net Successes allow penetration of relevant armors and done... no soak involved...

Keep the Faith...

Considering that bullets deliver hundreds of foot-pounds of energy on arrival and darts are delivering a few tens, that's Impact. But that's kind of immaterial. They're low-velocity projectiles with low mass.

As to the weapons themselves, they're direct descendants of 1st and 2nd Ed weapons, so I can't see why you'd change things at all. Why bother with them at all if they're going to be just a "heavy pistol" and a "sporting rifle"?

A dart can use fins and a narrow body profile to achieve very good long-range accuracy without needing the push of gunpowder to start moving. Please note: those darts do NOT work in any kind of conventional "gun".

I really wish the developers would provide a good example explaining this and add it to the FAQ just to settle the matter.

It would be a great topic in the new magazine.


Slightly off topic, but I just don't see an expert shot with a rifle having that much trouble using a dart rifle (as in he has no exotic weapon skill and must default at Agility -1).

Sure the total range and speed the dart will drop will be very different, but he is still pointing weapon and shoot it.

That ought to be good for a couple skill ranks compared to someone who has never picked up a firearm before.

I guess one way to handle it is to be fairly broad on the Exotics weapon groups (Ie Most polearms, Dart pistols and rifles, chain weapons,...)

Me too.

And it's not off topic at all. The skill is called "Dart Weapons, and it covers any of the type (also including the cyber versions apparently).

I miss the old Firearms skill, I still occasionally catch myself asking for my players Firearms score when calcing dice pools.

I'm looking at the proposed house rule above and think it's a mess. And you get say 6 points from a jumpsuit... and the dartgun is almost useless. For typical armor levels of a guard or similar... it gets silly, very quickly. Even the example... needs both exotic weapon skill AND to spend edge to use it against someone who's almost naked.


I still think the best, simplest, and most straightforward method is thus. It also scales well when dealing with say 6+ points armor.

Roll attack.

For defense roll, reaction + impact armor (-2AP).

If you get 2 hits, great you give him a dose of cocktail du jour.

Hmmm... it doesn't fit the "usual" mechanical formula for resolution, but I think that's actually workable. It give some benefit to higher armors without pushing the target numbers through the roof. You know, Falconer, I think this one's a win. It's simple, reasonable, logical, realtic, balanced AND usable.

I ran into the which armor to use with dartguns as well when doing my calculations. Not being a blunt weapon I assumed ballistic armor would be used (ass u me natch). I'm also in the camp wishing we could get some official clarification. Maybe this weekends chat?

I won't be able to make it, but if you'd bring the thing up, I'd be appreciative.