 On combat...the dodge |
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 Apr 14 2004, 10:56 PM
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#26
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Street Doc  Group: Admin Posts: 3,508 Joined: 2-March 04 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 6,114  |
Or maybe the "sudden and violent reflex action in the hopes of jumping out of the path of the on coming bullet test".... you know, for brevity.... :grinbig:
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Apr 14 2004, 11:01 PM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 400 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 825 |
That's cool, but it doesn't match the dictionary definition you cited. ;) |
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Apr 14 2004, 11:10 PM
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#28
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Street Doc Group: Admin Posts: 3,508 Joined: 2-March 04 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 6,114 |
How so? dodge = an act of evading by sudden bodily movement / an artful device to evade, deceive, or trick device = SCHEME, STRATAGEM / DESIRE, INCLINATION don't words like "scheme" "strategem" "desire" and "inclination" denote a conscious or deliberate action? |
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Apr 14 2004, 11:17 PM
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#29
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
How does the dodge not involve "an act of evading by sudden bodily movement"?
Skilled dodgers could also decieve the person aiming the gun by moving in one direction, then dodging quickly back accross the weapon's line of fire. That may seem risky, but if you do it fast enough then you put yourself at slightly higher risk for a split-second but buy yourself a few more miliseconds as it takes time for the aimer to notice the change in movement then more time to reverse the direction his hand is going in and try to home his sights on you again. |
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Apr 14 2004, 11:24 PM
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#30
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 23-February 04 From: Honolulu, HI Member No.: 6,099 |
In some of the short stories from the various SR manuals, in some ways enhanced reaction and speed gives you a limited 'bullet-time/matrix dooooom' kinda situation. But in the sense that everything seems to slow down just as the baddy points the gun in your direction, so you're already trying to haul ass before he pulls the trigger.
As for the original post. I think the current dodge rules are ok. The game does what it can to lean advantage towards a defender if a defender wishes to...um defend. A high enough baddy, or enough numbers of adequate baddies, will still paste a dodging defender because they'll run out of dice before the combat round ends. But it gives that NPC/PC a chance to try and haul ass out of the zone. |
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Apr 14 2004, 11:33 PM
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#31
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Senior GM Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,406 Joined: 12-April 03 From: Redmond, WA Member No.: 4,442 |
I don't like the acronym "TMAPT". Since you are using your Quickness and Intelligence to deceptively move in such a way as to make the shooter fire at the wrong place, how about calling it a "Duly Opposed Direct Gunfire Evasion" Test? |
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Apr 14 2004, 11:52 PM
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#32
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
OurTeam, that is wonderful.
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Apr 14 2004, 11:58 PM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 400 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 825 |
All of that is correct. It's the "specific threat on its way" part which you have added on your own and is not included within the given definition. It is this very portion of your own personal interpretation which is the center of your disagreement with the term/rule, and therefore the reason that OurTeam was forced to tax himself with the fun acronym. |
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Apr 15 2004, 12:11 AM
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#34
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Street Doc Group: Admin Posts: 3,508 Joined: 2-March 04 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 6,114 |
Scamp: How might one dodge non-specific treats? Perhaps by continually dodging about in the hopes that any threat that materializes will miss? :P
Seriously, if you guys think its possible to reliably dodge bullets in combat, than more power to ya, play the game however you want and I hope nobody ever shoots at you IRL. |
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Apr 15 2004, 12:27 AM
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#35
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
No, but you dodge out of the way as the weapon is about to be fire in hope that this will allow you to not be hit. That's really all their is to it. You aren't dodging bullets as one would dodge a ball; this is just lunging out of harms way defensively and doing the best you can.
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Apr 15 2004, 12:33 AM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 413 Joined: 20-November 03 Member No.: 5,835 |
[edit] I have too much time on my hands, apparently. Sorry for the WAY long post. But I had to resolve my inner "WTF?" factor. ;) [/edit]
I always interpreted the "dodge" test as exactly that -- movement to keep you from being hit, erratic movement, etc. As for being "before" or "after" the shot -- it's really not quite what happens. It's ordered that way so that people aren't dodging all over creation without shots being fired (andwasting CP, thereby makinthe game effectively More Lethal and Not Fun). It's basically (though not exactly, since the defender gets to choose to do it) an opposed success test: my dodge successes vs your attack successes. I always interpret it as happening pretty much simultaneously. (I think) it's obvious that you cannot dodge the bullet once it has been already fired (barring extremely long distances ;)), esp in CQB -- but if you present a difficulttarget, they are likely to miss, OR you are likely to get hit in a less severe manner -- which is why dodge successes also apply to damage resistance, to represent the round clipping your arm instead of perforating your lung. If it's effectively simultaneous, there's no reason to have the test before or after the attack; it's effectively the SAME thing. If you want to make it harder on players -- doin't tell them how many successes (or even if they Would Have Been Hit) the attacker got. This more accurately simulates the "oh crap, there's a barrel pointed my way!" reaction that we are bound to have in a realistic scenario; If you don't know whether the opponent got 2 or 4 successes, you might end up blowing most of your combat pool to dodge. Personally, I don't like that mechanic. Sure it's more realistic, but it sure makes it pretty damn hard for any character to survive getting shot at more than once in a round. (Opponent shoots at you once, maybe hits ... you blow your combat pool, he then takes his second shot and uses ALL of his combat pool -- viola, you are 0wned.) And now the part that will get me flamed . . . If you are having trouble with snipers not being able to kill people ... then either (a) you need to re-read (and internalize ;)) the Surprise rules (esp the part about surprised parties NOT GETTING combat pool) and ambush rules (makes it easier to surproise people, obviously). The adept power Combat Sense is there for a reason, and it's NOT just to give you 1-3 more combat pool dice in genheral use (tho that is nice). or (b) your snipers are idiots. Do they not aim? Do they not take cover from long distances away? A sniper at long rane, a mag3 scope, and an unaware walking target has a base TN of 4 (plus visibility/cover ... but a smart sniper positions himself to minimize target's cover, and picks his time of attack to either Make His Shot Easier (minimize vision TN mods like fog, rain, nighttime), or to minimize his chance of being caught (night, I imagine.) A sniper also should have a VERY low TN , due to rounds spend AIMING. Hey look, it's a simple action. Do that for as long as they need to (since the target almost always has no idea they are even there UNTIL the first shot is fired (or the sniper is noticed - hard at 500m away while camouflaged). This means that the sniper has a base TN of TWO for their first shot in almost any reasonable situation. Couple that with the massive power and damage code of a sniper rifle, and the fact that the sniper is almost certainly using all their combat pool, and you KNOW there's at least 12-14 dice being thrown... which means someone gets to deal with a large caliber round backed by probably 9-10 successes. Maybe they evenb throw in some karma pool too, and probably get another success. So that's ~10 successes. Few people can muster 10 successes with a TN of 4 with ANY reasonable number of combat pool. Adepts have a chance if they have combat sense 3, everyone else is pretty much going to get hit If the sniper is using a hunting rifle (Ruger 950: 9S), that Someone gets to stage down 9S + 10 successes ... which means 9(+8)D = 17D. Viola, they die. And their little dog, too. Oh, and then the sniper gets another shot. ;) (If hte taret had armor -- and they proably do, they are actually dealing with (17-armor)D, which means probably 11D. Trolls might survive that, and some extreme sammies. Again, that's what the follow up shot is for. Keep in mind too that the sonic crack and surprise ofthe first round often disorients people; if I saw a guy get capped in front of me, I might not have any idea where theshooter was until shot 2. Also, snipers at a distance (and an escape route ;)) often have a chance to take more than one follow up shot if they need to: Even if you knew someone was on That Building Over There -- you'd have to visually aquire them first, and then they'd be at such range andcover that you'd have MUCH worse chances to hit them. There's a reason that snipers vs PCs are considered "unfair" in almost all circumstances: played competently, even a less-skilled sniper can REALLY screw up a team's day. Because if they don't have cover, or can't get away, and can't FIND the sniper, the sniper just mops up. Imagine if you had two snipers in concert, who had a crossfire set up. Ouch. [edit] Of course, if your problem is with autofire in close quarters, well ... then most of this doesn't apply. Sorry :) Though, it's already extrmely hard to dodge auto and burst fire ANYWAYS (+3 per 3 rounds, I believe ...). [/edit] This post has been edited by gknoy: Apr 15 2004, 12:35 AM |
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Apr 15 2004, 12:33 AM
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#37
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I'm about 99.9% sure that no one here thinks dodging bullets is possible. Dodging out of a line of fire, out of sight, or simply out of harm's way, on the other hand, is quite possible. |
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Apr 15 2004, 01:28 AM
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#38
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
I've got several thousand games of Ultrazone (laser tag) under my belt. Those beams travel at the speed of light, and as you got used to the game you could definitely not be in the path of said beam by the time your opponent pulled the trigger. That was 99% of winning. Shooting at me and hitting me were two different things.
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Apr 15 2004, 02:31 AM
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#39
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
I always thought that it wasn't dodging the bullet, it was making yourself a harder target.
If someone points a gun my way whetther it be laser tag or paintball (granted paint balls you can atcually dodge) not to dodge the incoming beam (Cos thats impossible) but to make it more likely the he pulled the trigger at the wrong point. So i guess im saying i have no issuse's with the dodge rules. If you want to play a game where you can dodge (unless your a full borg) play cyberpunk. |
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Apr 15 2004, 02:41 AM
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#40
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
All that said, I should point out that Raygun's dodging with reaction is only the classic dodge test with an additional component to allow for reaction making you better at getting out of the way, not actually reacting faster than a bullet moves. I felt that this was made clear from the test on his site, but there seems to have been some confusion over that.
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Apr 15 2004, 03:09 AM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 162 Joined: 14-April 04 Member No.: 6,239 |
Whats ironic is that, at least accord to SR rules, you can dodge a bullet without,..
1) using movement 2) recieving penalities for movement 3) lose of actions 4) losing time All while still continuing your normal tasks. Technically I think you can even dodge while bound or held. Sorta funny |
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Apr 15 2004, 03:14 AM
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#42
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
You'll hear it after it hits, BUT at 300m+ you most certainly have a chance of seeing a muzzle flash well before the slug arrives. The muzzle velocity of firearms typically ranges from mach 1.5 to mach 2, although some reach into the range of mach 2.5 - 3.5 especially for sniper style ones where velocity is important to maintain a consistant, relatively flat tragectory. [edit]Please note that i don't have an exhastive firearms knowledge, there may firearms that have muzzle velocities above this range, but they aren't going to go a lot faster.[/edit] So at 300m the shortest time is around 0.3 seconds, hunting rifles will be much closer to 1/2 second. That gives time for the chemical retina reactions and neverous system signaling to visually register the muzzle flash. Now us mere mortals would have a very tough time doing much other mentally saying "Oh sh....."*SPLAT*. However 'runners are a notch above mortal, with deeply ingrained combat instincts. Of course the sniper should have a flash suppressor, but you can only suppress so much. The fire still has to come out the end, railguns not withstanding. P.S. You CAN see slugs traveling. At the very least the slower ones. Against a white backdrop traveling several 10's of meters you can see easily see .22 rim-fired slugs arcing away from you. I would imagine you'd beable to pick it up visually coming at you as well, although i plan to never personally test that theory. ;) |
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Apr 15 2004, 04:15 AM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 400 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 825 |
People have already answered half of this, but it's your definition and use of "threat on its way" which is too narrow. The threat of getting shot doesn't necessarily start with the flying bullet. Someone/thing still has to aim the gun in your direction first. |
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Apr 15 2004, 04:17 AM
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#44
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Street Doc Group: Admin Posts: 3,508 Joined: 2-March 04 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 6,114 |
The muzzle velocity on a 5.56 NATO round (AR) is 1005 m/s, so yes it would take a bit less than 0.3 seconds to hit you. But according to research done in auto crash testing the human response time in a surprise situation is about 1.5 seconds (that is 1.2 seconds to perceive a threat and 0.3 seconds to take action). The response test for an anticipated event is 0.7 seconds. There is also a theory called the Henry-Rogers theory that states that response times are increased when the person is under stress (like combat). So even in a best case scenario (no stress and no surprise), at 300m you are dead before your brain registers anything, even a muzzle flash and even if you are looking for it. |
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Apr 15 2004, 04:27 AM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 162 Joined: 14-April 04 Member No.: 6,239 |
Remember silencers in SR also hide muzzle blasts to some degree. But really keep in mind you can get alot of rounds of with a SA sniper rifle in a round. Mostly people will be dead in that first 3 seconds so no time to scope out the spots for possible snipers. If the sniper is in an urban area (read tall buildings) best you can hope for is a nice cover spot while Lone Star comes to see whats up Once, many moons ago, when I had an elf sniper (with Move-by-wire) he picked off a large group of executives coming out of the a convention center. I think he dropped like a dozen in under 30 seconds, all headshots. From the time the first shot rang to the time he made it to his car (dressed as a doc wagon medic) was under 5 minutes. When you can't see/hear it coming all you can do is dive and hope the sniper doesnt have LOS on you. |
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Apr 15 2004, 04:27 AM
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#46
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
Method, what did the study say about individuals wired reflexes?
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Apr 15 2004, 04:30 AM
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#47
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Street Doc Group: Admin Posts: 3,508 Joined: 2-March 04 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 6,114 |
The same thing the rules for dodging say.... :] |
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Apr 15 2004, 04:30 AM
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#48
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Do you have a link or source for those numbers. Because those are MUCH higher than i've seen. For highly expected events more like 160ms - 180ms depending on sound or sight (when sound is generated very close to the observer sound is precived faster than sight).
-Average- driver stuff i've seen is more in line with 750ms (3/4 second) to analyse a -complex- evolving situation, determine the appropriate action is to try to stop, and then getting the foot on the brake pedal. That is for a thought out action, which can be lowered with extensive training. |
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Apr 15 2004, 04:33 AM
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#49
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
In combat conditions, none that's really ever going to work out. Not even runners and professional soldiers stand much of a chance for noticing sniper fire from the flash of the first shot before the round impacts. A 7.62 NATO round out of an M24 at 2,800fps out to a distance of 984.25ft (300m) will take about .35 seconds to impact, but that is not a very long time at all, and not nearly enough time to go from not expecting enemy contact to dodging fucking bullets. It won't happen. On top of this, a good sniper will just use a suppressor (not just a flash hider), which essentially takes out all of this.
Bottom line: you get out of the way before rounds get moving, not afterwards. |
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 Apr 15 2004, 04:35 AM
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#50
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Here, a web page to demonstrate: http://www.getyourwebsitehere.com/jswb/rttest01.html
My age is catching up with me (36 next month) so my reactions are slowly slipping off. But my average of 5 first time through: 0.2644 seconds EDIT: Oh, and each of the times was shorter than the previous. I was improving just by pressing the button a few times. |
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