So my players didn't like the whole "easy to dodge" TN4 from their combat pools. They felt that noone should have an equal chance to dodge a worldclass sniper and a punk ganger..so I decided to post my little house rule on it for you guys...what do ya think:
Dodge TN = ranks in skill for attacker
Thus someone with 8 dice in pistols will be less likely to miss (due to the experience they have with shotting) vs the punk ganger with a 2 in pistols...comments/critizims/flames?
Full Version: On combat...the dodge
I don't like it at all. May be just me though, but I think it's perfect as it is. Someone going pure defensive (which is what a full combat pool allocation to dodge is) will most likely dodge any bullet. They still need to roll more successes, and since most people put alot of Combat Pool into attacking, and combat pool isn't refreshed per attack, but per phase, even 2 seperate attacks on a single target can pretty much assure they don't dodge enough of either...
Sphynx
Sphynx
so you think that having 8 dice in skill should count double?
first for the dodge TN and later for the number of succesess ?
first for the dodge TN and later for the number of succesess ?
I like the rules the way they stand for the most part. If the sniper fails to land more successes than the 2 rank ganger, thats the snipers problem.
If there was any flaw in dodging, it would be in full-auto heavy weapons fire. Now your looking at an equal chance to avoid 1 success from a hold out and 1 success from a 15 shot Vindicator.
If there was any flaw in dodging, it would be in full-auto heavy weapons fire. Now your looking at an equal chance to avoid 1 success from a hold out and 1 success from a 15 shot Vindicator.
| QUOTE (KillJuice) |
| Now your looking at an equal chance to avoid 1 success from a hold out and 1 success from a 15 shot Vindicator. |
No you aren't. SR3 p. 113, +1 TN per 3 shots of burst or autofire. Dodging 15 shots of Vindicator autofire has a base TN of 9.
| QUOTE (KillJuice) |
| If there was any flaw in dodging, it would be in full-auto heavy weapons fire. Now your looking at an equal chance to avoid 1 success from a hold out and 1 success from a 15 shot Vindicator. |
Wrong!
Dodge TN for one shot hold-out = 4
Dodge TN for 15 rounds from Vindicator = 9 (Base 4 + 15 rounds/3)
I'll dodge the hold-out anyday.
It is already harder to dodge the world class sniper because the sniper has more successes. It's fine as is.
heh, "ranks"
heh, "ranks"
I am not sure but it sounds like every one is only using combat pool for dodging test. If your are say a sniper or just going first with little threat coming later use the combat pool on the attack test.
Sniper hiding on roof 400m from target isn't getting attacked so he would use all the combat pool on the attack skill 8 + pool 7 = 15 dice and a vary bad day for what ever is getting shot.
Also you might want to look at the surprise rules. You only get to use a % of combat pool based on the PER test. So if the ganger comes up behind you at a busy club and tries shoots you from behind while you are dancing you may only get 20% or 40% of your pool, depending on how hot the person you are dancing with is.
Sniper hiding on roof 400m from target isn't getting attacked so he would use all the combat pool on the attack skill 8 + pool 7 = 15 dice and a vary bad day for what ever is getting shot.
Also you might want to look at the surprise rules. You only get to use a % of combat pool based on the PER test. So if the ganger comes up behind you at a busy club and tries shoots you from behind while you are dancing you may only get 20% or 40% of your pool, depending on how hot the person you are dancing with is.
And don't forget, the world class sniper has surprise on his side. If the target doesn't know he's there, in a reaction test the sniper has a TN of 2, the victim a minimum of 4+ (GM discretion).
Personally I use 2 tests for surprise:
1 Perception test for the victim(s), Tn 6 or more (depending on cover, stealth, invisibility etc of ambusher).
The initial TN for Surprise will vary depending on situation. Waiting in a room to shoot someone who opens the door might be a 6. Sniping someone from 1/2 mile away would be 10.
Each success on the Perception test reduces the TN for surprise to a minimum of four.
Then roll reaction against the TN for Surprise test.
If the vic loses the surprise test, they have no combat pool to dodge with.
Personally I use 2 tests for surprise:
1 Perception test for the victim(s), Tn 6 or more (depending on cover, stealth, invisibility etc of ambusher).
The initial TN for Surprise will vary depending on situation. Waiting in a room to shoot someone who opens the door might be a 6. Sniping someone from 1/2 mile away would be 10.
Each success on the Perception test reduces the TN for surprise to a minimum of four.
Then roll reaction against the TN for Surprise test.
If the vic loses the surprise test, they have no combat pool to dodge with.
Not to inject realism, but a sniper has a really hard hitting a target who knows that he's there and is actively avoiding him. Kind of the point of the whole surprise thing which affects your ability to dodge at all. Snipers tend to rely on surprise to get their shots, not just skill.
I have to go and take a look at the surprise rules (and, hell, should know them already), but I had always been under the assumption that if you caught someone completely unaware, he or she didn't get a surprise test, and, in the right conditions, not even a dodge test.
Anyone have some page numbers I can reference?
Anyone have some page numbers I can reference?
Surprise - page 109 SR3
Surprise is a reaction test. Those who roll the most successes can take action against those who roll fewer successes.
Characters are "surprised" by an opponent if they rolled fewer successes on the reaction test than the opponent.
There's a half page of info on surprise.
Surprise is a reaction test. Those who roll the most successes can take action against those who roll fewer successes.
Characters are "surprised" by an opponent if they rolled fewer successes on the reaction test than the opponent.
There's a half page of info on surprise.
In our games, we use have a dodge pool equal to your reaction. That frees up a lot more dice, and it makes sense that a wired sammy can more easily dodge than a non-wired person.
| QUOTE (Backgammon) |
| In our games, we use have a dodge pool equal to your reaction. That frees up a lot more dice, and it makes sense that a wired sammy can more easily dodge than a non-wired person. |
But Reaction is built out of Int + Quickness, and your combat pool is built out of Will + Int + Quickness. So by adding effectively more Combat Pool (albeit dedicated to Defense, it saves dice for Offense) you are putting even more weight on Quickness + Int. Maybe that is ok, but that would give my current 11 Combat Pool character an extra 7 dice. 18 dice is a LOT of dice.
With a real sniper situation the target would not even get to make a reaction test. You might give them a (very hard) perception test to see if they get a reaction test, but generally they just get shot and cannot use combat pool dice to dodge or to resist damage.
| QUOTE (Rev @ Apr 14 2004, 07:36 PM) |
| With a real sniper situation the target would not even get to make a reaction test. You might give them a (very hard) perception test to see if they get a reaction test, but generally they just get shot and cannot use combat pool dice to dodge or to resist damage. |
If they know a sniper is in the area (is shooting) i'm all for letting them get Dodge dice for acting funking. Irratically moving targets are harder to hit no matter what your skill.
Yea but the archtypical sniper situation is that they don't know there is a sniper in the area.
Once they do know then they are probably in initiative anyway and suprise isn't important. Sure they can dodge then.
You very rarely get to dodge the snipers first shot, but you almost always get to dodge his second shot. Unless you are dead by that time.
Once they do know then they are probably in initiative anyway and suprise isn't important. Sure they can dodge then.
You very rarely get to dodge the snipers first shot, but you almost always get to dodge his second shot. Unless you are dead by that time.
Some random thoughts:
First of all, it is entirely unrealistic that anyone, no matter how fast, can reliably dodge any kind of gun fire in a combat situation. The whole idea is silly, and trying to apply realism to a wholly artificial game mechanic just doesn't work. (now, having said that, I will try to apply realism to this wholly artificial game mechanic.....)
Second, in a real sniper situation the target is usually dead before the *sound* of the round even reaches him, meaning there is no way, no matter how fast you are, to detect, and much less dodge, the incoming round. Your only hope would be detecting the sniper before he fires. I personally think that should be a perception test with a relatively high TN (assuming any sniper worth the title would know how to conceal himself). You could argue for a surprise test, but I would still give the target higher TNs.
And third, if you want a different rule you could assume that the power of the weapon is an abstract measure of muzzle velocity. The TN to dodge could be equal to the power or you could use the base TN of 4 and create a modifier scale (1-3= +1 / 4-6=+2 / etc). That way it would be considerably more difficult to dodge a much faster .50 cal round (power = 14) than a relatively slow holdout pistol round (power = 4).
You misunderstand the dodge test. This isn't The Matrix and we're not agents dodging bullets. The dodge test is an abstract measure of your ability to realistically dodge fire, and, in real life, dodging bullets is about being whereever a gun is not pointed when it goes off byt whatever means are at your disposal.
As for a sniper situation, you just don't get a dodge test or a surprise test. That's just how it is. If the sniper does his job right, you're dead before you hit the ground. If not, you're at least in pain or running from further pain. But none of this crap about dodging something you could never see. And let's not get into subsonic sniping.
As for a sniper situation, you just don't get a dodge test or a surprise test. That's just how it is. If the sniper does his job right, you're dead before you hit the ground. If not, you're at least in pain or running from further pain. But none of this crap about dodging something you could never see. And let's not get into subsonic sniping.
I fully understand the concept of a dodge test in shadowrun. I was playing this game back when there was a dodge pool!
My point is that in RL it is unrealistic to think that you can dodge a bullet, period. If its on its way to where you are, you cannot think or react fast enough to get somewhere else before it hits you. Now, with cyberware you might have a chance, but then SR does not require any cyber to dodge bullets. If I had a RXN of one I could theoretically dodge a bullet.
In real life your only hope is to be moving *before* the round is fired such that the shooter is actually *aiming* at a spot where you *were*, or to use cover. In either case I wouldn't call that dodging.
You will note that there isn't a modern military in the world that tries to teach its troops to dodge bullets- they teach them to use cover and/or keep moving.
My point is that in RL it is unrealistic to think that you can dodge a bullet, period. If its on its way to where you are, you cannot think or react fast enough to get somewhere else before it hits you. Now, with cyberware you might have a chance, but then SR does not require any cyber to dodge bullets. If I had a RXN of one I could theoretically dodge a bullet.
In real life your only hope is to be moving *before* the round is fired such that the shooter is actually *aiming* at a spot where you *were*, or to use cover. In either case I wouldn't call that dodging.
You will note that there isn't a modern military in the world that tries to teach its troops to dodge bullets- they teach them to use cover and/or keep moving.
| QUOTE |
| In real life your only hope is to be moving *before* the round is fired such that the shooter is actually *aiming* at a spot where you *were*, or to use cover. In either case I wouldn't call that dodging. |
Well as SR allows you to dodge when there is no cover around, I'd say the first option (moving so that the shooter's aiming is off). Also: how is avoiding where someone is aming not dodging by your definition?
The system only really makes sense if you can only dodge shots that you know about, otherwise any movement you could make would be better interpreted as a +tn modifier (like in Raygun's Dodging with Reaction rules).
If you really want cyber ETC to take a bigger part then why not add extra dice for dodging equal to a character's reaction bonus?
The system only really makes sense if you can only dodge shots that you know about, otherwise any movement you could make would be better interpreted as a +tn modifier (like in Raygun's Dodging with Reaction rules).
If you really want cyber ETC to take a bigger part then why not add extra dice for dodging equal to a character's reaction bonus?
Yeah, I understand all that. What I'm saying is that mechanically, while the dodge test comes after the round has been fire, for purposes of realism, it has to happen before the round has been fired, even if the rules work backwards to preserve combat pool and ensure playability. In this case, dodging bullet is keeping moving and finding impromptu cover (eg dodge test can throw you behind a filing cabinet or desk).
At least, that's how I've been reading it. If it's really intended to let you dodge bullets, Matrix style, I'm going to have to stick the dodge test in front of the attack test.
At least, that's how I've been reading it. If it's really intended to let you dodge bullets, Matrix style, I'm going to have to stick the dodge test in front of the attack test.
Perhaps the root of this problem is the word "dodge". To give some definitions:
dodge \"däj\ n 1 : an act of evading by sudden bodily movement 2 : an artful device to evade, deceive, or trick 3 : EXPEDIENT
©2000 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. All rights reserved.
Note the use of the word “device” in the second definition
de•vice \di-"vïs\ n 1 : SCHEME, STRATAGEM 2 : a piece of equipment or a mechanism for a special purpose 3 : DESIRE, INCLINATION <left to my own ~s> 4 : an emblematic design
©2000 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. All rights reserved.
To me dodging involves a conscious, calculated or deliberate effort on the part of the target to deal with a specific, in coming (i.e. on its way) threat.
To answer Lilt's question (how is avoiding where someone is aiming not dodging by your definition?): such movement, while motivated by the knowledge that someone is shooting at you is not a direct response to a specific bullet in flight (dodging). It is "blind" movement which is just as likely to take you *into* the flight path of the round as it is to take you *out* of it.
In RL there is no time for a "if the bullet goes right, I'll jump left" thought process, or "I’ll stay here until he shoots and then move". You simple move and hope that his aim and your location do not coincide. To put it in a different context: to simply flail one's arms in the hopes of hitting one's opponent can hardly be called a punch.
To truly "dodge" a specific bullet in flight one would have to know exactly where the shooter was aiming, be capable of complex ballistic calculations to ensure the bullet's flight path and be quick enough to move off that path.
At any rate (and to bring us back on topic) my purpose was to say that I can see where his players dislike the dodge rules. One has to suspend their disbelief when considering the rules as they apply to SR's combat system. And if he wants a slightly more "realistic" rule it makes more sense to base the TN for the dodge test on the speed (muzzle velocity/power level) of the round.
dodge \"däj\ n 1 : an act of evading by sudden bodily movement 2 : an artful device to evade, deceive, or trick 3 : EXPEDIENT
©2000 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. All rights reserved.
Note the use of the word “device” in the second definition
de•vice \di-"vïs\ n 1 : SCHEME, STRATAGEM 2 : a piece of equipment or a mechanism for a special purpose 3 : DESIRE, INCLINATION <left to my own ~s> 4 : an emblematic design
©2000 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. All rights reserved.
To me dodging involves a conscious, calculated or deliberate effort on the part of the target to deal with a specific, in coming (i.e. on its way) threat.
To answer Lilt's question (how is avoiding where someone is aiming not dodging by your definition?): such movement, while motivated by the knowledge that someone is shooting at you is not a direct response to a specific bullet in flight (dodging). It is "blind" movement which is just as likely to take you *into* the flight path of the round as it is to take you *out* of it.
In RL there is no time for a "if the bullet goes right, I'll jump left" thought process, or "I’ll stay here until he shoots and then move". You simple move and hope that his aim and your location do not coincide. To put it in a different context: to simply flail one's arms in the hopes of hitting one's opponent can hardly be called a punch.
To truly "dodge" a specific bullet in flight one would have to know exactly where the shooter was aiming, be capable of complex ballistic calculations to ensure the bullet's flight path and be quick enough to move off that path.
At any rate (and to bring us back on topic) my purpose was to say that I can see where his players dislike the dodge rules. One has to suspend their disbelief when considering the rules as they apply to SR's combat system. And if he wants a slightly more "realistic" rule it makes more sense to base the TN for the dodge test on the speed (muzzle velocity/power level) of the round.
So maybe we could call it the "Tactical Movement And Positioning Test" instead of the "Dodge Test", and then everyone would be happy?
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| So maybe we could call it the "Tactical Movement And Positioning Test" instead of the "Dodge Test", and then everyone would be happy? |
Actually that would be a grand idea.
Or maybe the "sudden and violent reflex action in the hopes of jumping out of the path of the on coming bullet test".... you know, for brevity.... 
| QUOTE |
| To me dodging involves a conscious, calculated or deliberate effort on the part of the target to deal with a specific, in coming (i.e. on its way) threat. |
That's cool, but it doesn't match the dictionary definition you cited.
| QUOTE (TheScamp) |
| That's cool, but it doesn't match the dictionary definition you cited. |
How so?
dodge = an act of evading by sudden bodily movement / an artful device to evade, deceive, or trick
device = SCHEME, STRATAGEM / DESIRE, INCLINATION
don't words like "scheme" "strategem" "desire" and "inclination" denote a conscious or deliberate action?
How does the dodge not involve "an act of evading by sudden bodily movement"?
Skilled dodgers could also decieve the person aiming the gun by moving in one direction, then dodging quickly back accross the weapon's line of fire. That may seem risky, but if you do it fast enough then you put yourself at slightly higher risk for a split-second but buy yourself a few more miliseconds as it takes time for the aimer to notice the change in movement then more time to reverse the direction his hand is going in and try to home his sights on you again.
Skilled dodgers could also decieve the person aiming the gun by moving in one direction, then dodging quickly back accross the weapon's line of fire. That may seem risky, but if you do it fast enough then you put yourself at slightly higher risk for a split-second but buy yourself a few more miliseconds as it takes time for the aimer to notice the change in movement then more time to reverse the direction his hand is going in and try to home his sights on you again.
In some of the short stories from the various SR manuals, in some ways enhanced reaction and speed gives you a limited 'bullet-time/matrix dooooom' kinda situation. But in the sense that everything seems to slow down just as the baddy points the gun in your direction, so you're already trying to haul ass before he pulls the trigger.
As for the original post. I think the current dodge rules are ok. The game does what it can to lean advantage towards a defender if a defender wishes to...um defend. A high enough baddy, or enough numbers of adequate baddies, will still paste a dodging defender because they'll run out of dice before the combat round ends. But it gives that NPC/PC a chance to try and haul ass out of the zone.
As for the original post. I think the current dodge rules are ok. The game does what it can to lean advantage towards a defender if a defender wishes to...um defend. A high enough baddy, or enough numbers of adequate baddies, will still paste a dodging defender because they'll run out of dice before the combat round ends. But it gives that NPC/PC a chance to try and haul ass out of the zone.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| So maybe we could call it the "Tactical Movement And Positioning Test" instead of the "Dodge Test", and then everyone would be happy? |
I don't like the acronym "TMAPT".
Since you are using your Quickness and Intelligence to deceptively move in such a way as to make the shooter fire at the wrong place, how about calling it a "Duly Opposed Direct Gunfire Evasion" Test?
OurTeam, that is wonderful.
| QUOTE |
| How so? dodge = an act of evading by sudden bodily movement / an artful device to evade, deceive, or trick device = SCHEME, STRATAGEM / DESIRE, INCLINATION don't words like "scheme" "strategem" "desire" and "inclination" denote a conscious or deliberate action? |
All of that is correct. It's the "specific threat on its way" part which you have added on your own and is not included within the given definition. It is this very portion of your own personal interpretation which is the center of your disagreement with the term/rule, and therefore the reason that OurTeam was forced to tax himself with the fun acronym.
Scamp: How might one dodge non-specific treats? Perhaps by continually dodging about in the hopes that any threat that materializes will miss? 
Seriously, if you guys think its possible to reliably dodge bullets in combat, than more power to ya, play the game however you want and I hope nobody ever shoots at you IRL.
Seriously, if you guys think its possible to reliably dodge bullets in combat, than more power to ya, play the game however you want and I hope nobody ever shoots at you IRL.
No, but you dodge out of the way as the weapon is about to be fire in hope that this will allow you to not be hit. That's really all their is to it. You aren't dodging bullets as one would dodge a ball; this is just lunging out of harms way defensively and doing the best you can.
[edit]
I have too much time on my hands, apparently. Sorry for the WAY long post. But I had to resolve my inner "WTF?" factor.
[/edit]
I have too much time on my hands, apparently. Sorry for the WAY long post. But I had to resolve my inner "WTF?" factor.
[/edit]
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| It has to happen before the round has been fired, even if the rules work backwards to preserve combat pool and ensure playability. In this case, dodging bullet is keeping moving and finding impromptu cover (eg dodge test can throw you behind a filing cabinet or desk). |
I always interpreted the "dodge" test as exactly that -- movement to keep you from being hit, erratic movement, etc.
As for being "before" or "after" the shot -- it's really not quite what happens. It's ordered that way so that people aren't dodging all over creation without shots being fired (andwasting CP, thereby makinthe game effectively More Lethal and Not Fun).
It's basically (though not exactly, since the defender gets to choose to do it) an opposed success test: my dodge successes vs your attack successes. I always interpret it as happening pretty much simultaneously.
(I think) it's obvious that you cannot dodge the bullet once it has been already fired (barring extremely long distances
), esp in CQB -- but if you present a difficulttarget, they are likely to miss, OR you are likely to get hit in a less severe manner -- which is why dodge successes also apply to damage resistance, to represent the round clipping your arm instead of perforating your lung.If it's effectively simultaneous, there's no reason to have the test before or after the attack; it's effectively the SAME thing.
If you want to make it harder on players -- doin't tell them how many successes (or even if they Would Have Been Hit) the attacker got. This more accurately simulates the "oh crap, there's a barrel pointed my way!" reaction that we are bound to have in a realistic scenario; If you don't know whether the opponent got 2 or 4 successes, you might end up blowing most of your combat pool to dodge.
Personally, I don't like that mechanic. Sure it's more realistic, but it sure makes it pretty damn hard for any character to survive getting shot at more than once in a round. (Opponent shoots at you once, maybe hits ... you blow your combat pool, he then takes his second shot and uses ALL of his combat pool -- viola, you are 0wned.)
And now the part that will get me flamed . . .
If you are having trouble with snipers not being able to kill people ... then either
(a) you need to re-read (and internalize
) the Surprise rules (esp the part about surprised parties NOT GETTING combat pool) and ambush rules (makes it easier to surproise people, obviously). The adept power Combat Sense is there for a reason, and it's NOT just to give you 1-3 more combat pool dice in genheral use (tho that is nice).or (b) your snipers are idiots. Do they not aim? Do they not take cover from long distances away? A sniper at long rane, a mag3 scope, and an unaware walking target has a base TN of 4 (plus visibility/cover ... but a smart sniper positions himself to minimize target's cover, and picks his time of attack to either Make His Shot Easier (minimize vision TN mods like fog, rain, nighttime), or to minimize his chance of being caught (night, I imagine.)
A sniper also should have a VERY low TN , due to rounds spend AIMING. Hey look, it's a simple action. Do that for as long as they need to (since the target almost always has no idea they are even there UNTIL the first shot is fired (or the sniper is noticed - hard at 500m away while camouflaged). This means that the sniper has a base TN of TWO for their first shot in almost any reasonable situation. Couple that with the massive power and damage code of a sniper rifle, and the fact that the sniper is almost certainly using all their combat pool, and you KNOW there's at least 12-14 dice being thrown... which means someone gets to deal with a large caliber round backed by probably 9-10 successes. Maybe they evenb throw in some karma pool too, and probably get another success. So that's ~10 successes.
Few people can muster 10 successes with a TN of 4 with ANY reasonable number of combat pool. Adepts have a chance if they have combat sense 3, everyone else is pretty much going to get hit
If the sniper is using a hunting rifle (Ruger 950: 9S), that Someone gets to stage down 9S + 10 successes ... which means 9(+
D = 17D. Viola, they die. And their little dog, too. Oh, and then the sniper gets another shot. (If hte taret had armor -- and they proably do, they are actually dealing with (17-armor)D, which means probably 11D. Trolls might survive that, and some extreme sammies. Again, that's what the follow up shot is for.Keep in mind too that the sonic crack and surprise ofthe first round often disorients people; if I saw a guy get capped in front of me, I might not have any idea where theshooter was until shot 2. Also, snipers at a distance (and an escape route
) often have a chance to take more than one follow up shot if they need to: Even if you knew someone was on That Building Over There -- you'd have to visually aquire them first, and then they'd be at such range andcover that you'd have MUCH worse chances to hit them.There's a reason that snipers vs PCs are considered "unfair" in almost all circumstances: played competently, even a less-skilled sniper can REALLY screw up a team's day. Because if they don't have cover, or can't get away, and can't FIND the sniper, the sniper just mops up. Imagine if you had two snipers in concert, who had a crossfire set up. Ouch.
[edit]
Of course, if your problem is with autofire in close quarters, well ... then most of this doesn't apply. Sorry
Though, it's already extrmely hard to dodge auto and burst fire ANYWAYS (+3 per 3 rounds, I believe ...).[/edit]
| QUOTE (Method) |
| if you guys think its possible to reliably dodge bullets in combat |
I'm about 99.9% sure that no one here thinks dodging bullets is possible. Dodging out of a line of fire, out of sight, or simply out of harm's way, on the other hand, is quite possible.
I've got several thousand games of Ultrazone (laser tag) under my belt. Those beams travel at the speed of light, and as you got used to the game you could definitely not be in the path of said beam by the time your opponent pulled the trigger. That was 99% of winning. Shooting at me and hitting me were two different things.
I always thought that it wasn't dodging the bullet, it was making yourself a harder target.
If someone points a gun my way whetther it be laser tag or paintball (granted paint balls you can atcually dodge) not to dodge the incoming beam (Cos thats impossible) but to make it more likely the he pulled the trigger at the wrong point.
So i guess im saying i have no issuse's with the dodge rules. If you want to play a game where you can dodge (unless your a full borg) play cyberpunk.
If someone points a gun my way whetther it be laser tag or paintball (granted paint balls you can atcually dodge) not to dodge the incoming beam (Cos thats impossible) but to make it more likely the he pulled the trigger at the wrong point.
So i guess im saying i have no issuse's with the dodge rules. If you want to play a game where you can dodge (unless your a full borg) play cyberpunk.
All that said, I should point out that Raygun's dodging with reaction is only the classic dodge test with an additional component to allow for reaction making you better at getting out of the way, not actually reacting faster than a bullet moves. I felt that this was made clear from the test on his site, but there seems to have been some confusion over that.
Whats ironic is that, at least accord to SR rules, you can dodge a bullet without,..
1) using movement
2) recieving penalities for movement
3) lose of actions
4) losing time
All while still continuing your normal tasks. Technically I think you can even dodge while bound or held. Sorta funny
1) using movement
2) recieving penalities for movement
3) lose of actions
4) losing time
All while still continuing your normal tasks. Technically I think you can even dodge while bound or held. Sorta funny
| QUOTE (Method @ Apr 14 2004, 08:45 PM) |
| Second, in a real sniper situation the target is usually dead before the *sound* of the round even reaches him, meaning there is no way, no matter how fast you are, to detect, and much less dodge, the incoming round. Your only hope would be detecting the sniper before he fires. I personally think that should be a perception test with a relatively high TN (assuming any sniper worth the title would know how to conceal himself). You could argue for a surprise test, but I would still give the target higher TNs. |
You'll hear it after it hits, BUT at 300m+ you most certainly have a chance of seeing a muzzle flash well before the slug arrives. The muzzle velocity of firearms typically ranges from mach 1.5 to mach 2, although some reach into the range of mach 2.5 - 3.5 especially for sniper style ones where velocity is important to maintain a consistant, relatively flat tragectory.
[edit]Please note that i don't have an exhastive firearms knowledge, there may firearms that have muzzle velocities above this range, but they aren't going to go a lot faster.[/edit]
So at 300m the shortest time is around 0.3 seconds, hunting rifles will be much closer to 1/2 second. That gives time for the chemical retina reactions and neverous system signaling to visually register the muzzle flash. Now us mere mortals would have a very tough time doing much other mentally saying "Oh sh....."*SPLAT*. However 'runners are a notch above mortal, with deeply ingrained combat instincts.
Of course the sniper should have a flash suppressor, but you can only suppress so much. The fire still has to come out the end, railguns not withstanding.
P.S. You CAN see slugs traveling. At the very least the slower ones. Against a white backdrop traveling several 10's of meters you can see easily see .22 rim-fired slugs arcing away from you. I would imagine you'd beable to pick it up visually coming at you as well, although i plan to never personally test that theory.
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| Scamp: How might one dodge non-specific treats? |
People have already answered half of this, but it's your definition and use of "threat on its way" which is too narrow. The threat of getting shot doesn't necessarily start with the flying bullet. Someone/thing still has to aim the gun in your direction first.
The muzzle velocity on a 5.56 NATO round (AR) is 1005 m/s, so yes it would take a bit less than 0.3 seconds to hit you.
But according to research done in auto crash testing the human response time in a surprise situation is about 1.5 seconds (that is 1.2 seconds to perceive a threat and 0.3 seconds to take action). The response test for an anticipated event is 0.7 seconds. There is also a theory called the Henry-Rogers theory that states that response times are increased when the person is under stress (like combat).
So even in a best case scenario (no stress and no surprise), at 300m you are dead before your brain registers anything, even a muzzle flash and even if you are looking for it.
| QUOTE |
| You'll hear it after it hits, BUT at 300m+ you most certainly have a chance of seeing a muzzle flash well before the slug arrives. |
Remember silencers in SR also hide muzzle blasts to some degree. But really keep in mind you can get alot of rounds of with a SA sniper rifle in a round. Mostly people will be dead in that first 3 seconds so no time to scope out the spots for possible snipers. If the sniper is in an urban area (read tall buildings) best you can hope for is a nice cover spot while Lone Star comes to see whats up
Once, many moons ago, when I had an elf sniper (with Move-by-wire) he picked off a large group of executives coming out of the a convention center. I think he dropped like a dozen in under 30 seconds, all headshots. From the time the first shot rang to the time he made it to his car (dressed as a doc wagon medic) was under 5 minutes. When you can't see/hear it coming all you can do is dive and hope the sniper doesnt have LOS on you.
Method, what did the study say about individuals wired reflexes?
| QUOTE (TinkerGnome) |
| Method, what did the study say about individuals wired reflexes? |
The same thing the rules for dodging say....
Do you have a link or source for those numbers. Because those are MUCH higher than i've seen. For highly expected events more like 160ms - 180ms depending on sound or sight (when sound is generated very close to the observer sound is precived faster than sight).
-Average- driver stuff i've seen is more in line with 750ms (3/4 second) to analyse a -complex- evolving situation, determine the appropriate action is to try to stop, and then getting the foot on the brake pedal. That is for a thought out action, which can be lowered with extensive training.
-Average- driver stuff i've seen is more in line with 750ms (3/4 second) to analyse a -complex- evolving situation, determine the appropriate action is to try to stop, and then getting the foot on the brake pedal. That is for a thought out action, which can be lowered with extensive training.
In combat conditions, none that's really ever going to work out. Not even runners and professional soldiers stand much of a chance for noticing sniper fire from the flash of the first shot before the round impacts. A 7.62 NATO round out of an M24 at 2,800fps out to a distance of 984.25ft (300m) will take about .35 seconds to impact, but that is not a very long time at all, and not nearly enough time to go from not expecting enemy contact to dodging fucking bullets. It won't happen. On top of this, a good sniper will just use a suppressor (not just a flash hider), which essentially takes out all of this.
Bottom line: you get out of the way before rounds get moving, not afterwards.
Bottom line: you get out of the way before rounds get moving, not afterwards.
Here, a web page to demonstrate: http://www.getyourwebsitehere.com/jswb/rttest01.html
My age is catching up with me (36 next month) so my reactions are slowly slipping off. But my average of 5 first time through: 0.2644 seconds
EDIT: Oh, and each of the times was shorter than the previous. I was improving just by pressing the button a few times.
My age is catching up with me (36 next month) so my reactions are slowly slipping off. But my average of 5 first time through: 0.2644 seconds
EDIT: Oh, and each of the times was shorter than the previous. I was improving just by pressing the button a few times.
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