I specified professional soldiers for a reason. Even with all that gear or magic, you're still (meta)human and you aren't walking everywhere just waiting for that flash, exactly where you're expecting it to come from, so you can hit the dirt. Life isn't like that. People don't work like that, even if they are incredibly fast.

And if you absolutely want to argue that way, it can be expected that all heavy rifle calibers in the 2060s are going to be putting bullets downrange quite a bit faster, but that's not even a necessary assumption.

[edit 2]

Awesome. I can dodge bullets. I was doing about .19 on that on my second run through (screwed up on the first two, too), and that's without combat training, instincts, etc. Go me! Again!

.191

True, there are massive differences. I just find it incredibly unlikely that even a very wired soldier will be able to dodge bullets in the time between the muzzle flash and the impact. .3 seconds is still on the level of a 100+ initiative, and, on top of this, you simply don't know where it's coming from. You can react faster, but you don't think faster, nor do you become inhumanly focused solely on the job at hand, much less the window you shouldn't know fire will be coming from. Combat isn't as simple as smacking a button when the green light goes off.

.3 seconds isn't really 100 initative. I see where you get it, 10/complex action * 3/.3 = 100, but that is making a lot of very shaky assumptions and simplifications, not the least of which is the complex action part. Also keep in mind that dodging is sort of equating to a Free Action, but not because it doesn't even happen on your turn.

As for smacking a green button, well "dodging" as we've mostly discerned in this thread is more akined to spazzing than a specific thought out movement. A simple reflex level twitch or jerk is enough to perhaps differentiate between a full frontal lead lobotomy and scratch. So actually i'd say that infact it is somewhat like smacking a green button, but a really wide green button wrapped around you and it matters little where you smack it...outside of luck.

As long as you're making those ultra-twitchy fuckers dive under tables whenever a camera flash goes off, I see no reason not to let them do so when there really is a threat.

Camera flash? Glare off anything within 2 kilometers should be enough to send you diving for cover. Have fun.

Wow didn't expect that to get this big...but thanks for the input..I shoulda left the word sniper off of the initial part of the post, but seeing as it got on that track..I've never had anyone survive a surprise sniper attack in Srun at all...even the uberTroll in 1 group was grounded to 1 over Deadly by one...I refered more to after the first shot, or the highly likely lucky 32 on the perception test that some elf always manages to get when I target him. (stupid dice luck...) But we should have a sticky dice luck thread on this board anyway...just for those types of stories

I handle dodge slightly different, that might make some of you guys happier.

I make my PCs and NPCS declare dodge at init, and that roll lasts throughout the combat round. so at the beginning of combat round everyone rolls however many CP dice they want to use for dodge, and those become the static dodge for every shot fired at them, just compare the numbers like thye had just rolled them anytime someone shoots.

this always seemed more realistic to me. you declare how much you re dodgeing and it is effective for every opponent shooting at you. you don't know if you will get shot at or not, so it may be wasted, but it allows you to dodge a lot of people shooting at you at once without running out of CP.

what do ya'll think? it gives a little advantage to the dodger, but it'sbalanced as it applies to everyone, and it speeds up the Combat as well (rolling the dodge once and comparing as people shoot)

-Mike R.

I use this for general dodgeing. cover is a modifier for the attacker TN anyway. additionally, I usually make them use movement on there pass to get behind cover, as I envision that as being something that would take an action, versus the general not standing still of the dodge roll.

there do tend to be a few more rounds of combat, but they go faster so it evens out in my games.

-Mike R.

It certainly makes large fights far more survivable. With the canon rules someone with 10 CP going against a person with 4 actions is pretty much screwed if the TNs aren't really high -- there's no way you can Dodge as many as 8 times with those 10CP. With your rules the same guy can easily Dodge every shot.

It might still work great, I might even try that myself. It will, however, shift game balance slightly, for better or for worse.

I think that if you do do it like that, you need to spend 1 Combat Pool die per Dodge die for each phase you want to be dodging. If you have a character with only an initiative of 9, he'll only have to spend his dice on a 1:1 ratio to be able to dodge the entire Combat Turn. The speed demon with 32 initiative will have to spend his Combat Pool on a 4:1 ratio in order to dodge the entire Turn, or 1:1 if only during one phase, or 2:1 for two of his phases, etc. Extensions could be made if he declares a Full Dodge through all of those phases (ie, he spends his Complex Action continuing the dodge from the previous phase).

I think that'd be a better, and fairer, base to work off of.

So the slow, crappy guy gets 10 dice to dodge for the entire turn, but the super-cool fast guy who wants to dodge all turn only has 3 dice at any given time?

I really don't get the "fair" part of that Clockwork Lime? The slow initiative already gets a bonus from the new system in that he was the one more likely to run out of dodge dice under the pervious system since he is getting attacked more often. Sure the attacker will quickly run out of CP unloading on the slow init target, but once the target empties CP that is it. No more. But the high init attacker always has as many skill dice as he has phases.

No, he super-cool fast guy has the option of getting all 10 dice for the entire turn if he does nothing but dodge, but if he decides to stop and shoot a guard a couple of times, he's not dodging the entire turn, now is he?

Oh good fucking lord. Try reading the content of the last few posts before rambling on with your idiocy. We were discussing a house rule.

No it doesn't. What it does is give all characters the same benefit, while giving faster characters an option to continue with that benefit OR perform other actions WITHOUT cheating the slower characters.

If a fast character wants to do a half million different things, he's not going to be able to dodge as well as the character who's doing nothing but. Alternatively, if all he wants to do is dodge, he's getting the same benefit as the other character.

Heightened reflexes don't actually make you faster anyway, they just give you the opportunity to react to more situations (sans the melee combat rules which go completely contrary to this). A character with heightened reflexes can react and act more often, but they're still moving the same speed as the slower character.

YUM!!! That sure must be a tasty appendage you have there because seem very insistant on ramming even further down your feed-pipe!

Then maybe we're just not understanding your potential modification. Here's what I see (EDIT, specification: according to the proposed house rule, with the addition of your modification proposal):

Runner A and Guard B are fighting. A is some ridiculously tricked-out wired sammie monster with an init of 32, and B is a normal guy with an init of 8. Both have the same amount of combat pool ( 8; the sam has the Int of a doorknob and the guard is a member of MENSA ). We'll assume this is something like the fourth combat turn so we don't have to deal with issues of surprise and the like.

Now, both A and B figure out how many Combat Pool die they want to use on dodging this turn. B is a whiny baby, so he throws all 8 of his pool into dodging. He only gets one pass this turn, so he nets all 8/1 = eight dice: 09 05 04 04 03 02 01 01. A throws all 8 die into dodging too. However, he has four passes this turn, so allocating 8 dice means he only gets 8/4 = two this pass: 05 02.

This gives us the extremely odd result that every time A wants to hit B he must beat five successes on the B's dodge test, wheras B only has to beat the A's one. The advantage goes to the slower guy.


I do like this dodge house rule, though it will make combat far more survivable. One thing that might change that is to add a +1 TN modifier for every previous attack you've had to dodge that Turn. Since you have to record the actual dice rolls for dodge anyway (to apply later wound and burst-fire mods) this isn't a big change, and it brings back the lethality of being shot at by twenty different people (or twenty times by the same person )

If you wanted to do something like the "one dodge per round" thing, I think using the same mechanic is a mistake. Do a straight TN mod based on successes. Ie, Bob the sammy rolls 4 dice of CP to dodge (TN 4 + wound modifiers). He gets 2 successes. For the rest of the turn, Bob has a +2 TN modifier to be hit against anything he is aware of as he moves erraticly, tryin gto avoid fire. Reduce it by 1 for every 3 rounds in a burst/full auto. In Eyeless Blond's example, Player A would be under a +4 penalty to hit player B and a +1 penalty would apply in the reverse.

Seems less unwieldly to me.

I like that idea.
As I said before regarding Fahr's rolling method, this sort of thing will probably lead to slightly longer firefights, but the dice rolling of said fights should go slightly quicker (as was pointed out by Farh), all-in-all yielding a more cinematic feel. What I like about this solution is that you don't have to keep track of what was rolled on each die, since dodge TN's will change due to burst fire. This accounts for that. Very cool.
I don't plan to use it, but I like it.

Example of my previous idea in action. :

Same two guys: Runner A and Guard B. A has an initiative of 32; B has an init of 8. They've settled in for a bit of a haul; each is stationary (-1) and behind his own low barricade (+4), firing at the other at Short Range (TN 4+4-1=7). Both A and B have all 8 combat pool allocated to dodging, and both get the same numbers: 08 07 05 04 03 02 02 01 .

A attacks first. He fires off two bursts at B. With distance mods, Smartgun link, recoil comp 4 and everything he rolls six dice against a TN of 5: 09 05 05 03 02 01, and then another six against TN 7: 14 05 05 04 03 03. Three successes for the first, one for the second. B ducks hurriedly behind the barricade each time, scoring three successes in his first (TN 5) didge test, and two in the second (TN 6). He fires back, six dice twice against TN 7, then 9 (no Smartlink for this poor bastard): 09 05 04 03 02 01, then 05 04 04 03 02 01. A dodges the first burst easily; the second shot goes wide.

Now A's reflexes really come into play. During the second, third, and fourth pass he makes six more bursts than B did: 05 04 03 02 02 01 ; 05 05 05 05 04 03 ; 05 05 04 01 01 01 ; 13 05 04 03 01 01 ; 15 10 04 03 02 01 ; 05 05 04 03 02 01, ending in 1 success, then 0, 1, 1, 2. The guard, using the same dodge dice that he rolled at the beginninf of the Turn, dodges the first two bursts, but can't get away from the third and thr fourth, and must resist two 11S wounds. Merry Christmas, ya filthy animal.


Analysis: Notice how much longer (in Combat Turns) gun battles can take with this rule. However, since the Dodge Test is already done for everone at the beginning of the Turn it makes a few bits of combat easier.

in my opinion it shouldn't matter how many people are shooting at you... If I am dodgeing, I am making it harder for anyone who shoots at me to hit me by my eratic movements and such. if ten people shoot at me, they already have a statistically better changce of hitting me than one guy shooting at me. they are that much more likely to hit me by virtue of the number of attempts. why make this worse by adding penalties on top of that.

It is my opinion that the canon system penalizes the target unnessesarily.

as for FA and burst, you keep the original dice and compare with the modified dodge roll, so if 10 guys are shooting at me in FA, than they are still more likely to hit me by virtue of the number of attacks.

-Mike R.

I find the idea of a system that does dodging ahead of time fairly interesting, though I'm not sure I'd necessarily run with it.

Should point out, however, that since the canon system deals with bursts as essentially single shots with more damage and harder chances of hitting, making it easier to hit per three rounds on the dodge test helps this situation and doesn't penalize the target unfairly.

If you make them roll Dodge at the beginning of the round, do you have a way to take modifiers into account (wounds, bursts, obstacles, grenade dodging)? Would this force you to write down the die rolls?

It would force you to. If you went with rolling beforehand, the aforementioned dice against TN 4 is a much simpler solution, and a more balanced one.

Eyeless Blonde - I jsut reread your extended example. I think I see what you're saying...

Please correct me if i'm wrong:

Instead of using the Successes (vs TN 4) for the entire round, you use the same ROLLS each round, and compare those numbers each time with the TN for dodging? (including modifed TNs for burst fire, etc) That seems like a good idea;

How about just having them declare the number of dice they want to use for the round to dodge...get em outta the combat pool, then if they don't use em they're lost, but nothing is rolled before the shotting starts. A reduced comat pool that woudl represent the amount of jinkin that the charachter does.

I make them write the numbers down, so I can apply different modifiers based on whos shooting them.

so the original rolls are the same but if they get hit, subsequent tn go up, FA makes it go up and so on, they just never roll the dice again. I also let them use karma to re-roll, but they gotta roll all the dodge again, making it a risky proposal.

-Mike R.

My players would like the house rule you are suggesting for dodging. They'd know ahead of time whether they could move through an area of suppressive fire without taking damage.

*heh* when I started using this rule I didn't have the books that covered suppresive fire...

an easy solution to that would be making them allocate new pool if they choose to move into suppressive fire... but that breaks the simplicity... so maybe not... hmm... hadn't considered suppressive fire at all...

but wait, how exactly does suppressive fire normally work... cause the more I think about this it would likely make suppressive fire something you avoided more often, actually making it work more like, well... suppressive fire, i.e. making people choose not to go into the line of fire.... I could be wrong, I'll have to re-read that section and come up with something...

-Mike R.

If successive dodge attempts have a higher TN, (maybe my +1 or +2?), that could very well be a very good workaround. I'll keep runnign it in a canon manner, tho, since (a) I am a n00b GM, and (b) my players are new. Hehe.