Never fudge a roll again, ever

Never fudge a roll again, ever, MILES training for PCs?

Wounded Ronin View Member Profile	Jan 22 2006, 10:15 PM Post #1
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383	Mmm, see, over the years I decided that fudging the rolls is a bad idea. This is the way I see it: people spend hours making their characters, buying gear, picking magic and bioware. Each of these things has a statistical impact. Sometimes, you'll use that much more of your starting nuyen to get ballistic armor higher by 1 point, which has a specific statistical effect. I kind of feel like if the GM fudges the roles, all that time put into character creation has gone to waste. If I prioritized getting a few more points of armor over having a faster reaction time, I should get the consequences of that. Statistically, I'm less likely to die from getting shot, but statistically I'll also get shot more often. Does that balance out? It's all in the stats, and the decisions of the player. In other words, I feel like there's simply no point to using statistical rules so painstakingly to make our characters and shape our world if the GM will just disregard them whenever something goes wrong. When making the character, I knew the odds of my getting one-shotted by a Predator were higher or lower, based on my design. If a bad guy gets lucky and rolls mucho successes on his Pistols roll, and all and all blasts my head off...well, that was unfortunate, but those were the rules. My character design failed at that point, for whatever reason, and it's time to make a new one. But, it's all pointless if my character design that I put hours into didn't count in the first place. See what I mean? Why should we even bother to have a combat mechanic if that combat mechanic is going to be waived in the even of a little bad luck? I used to believe in fudging, but now I am a firm believer in letting the dice fall where they may. In fact, I just had an idea. Usually, in the past, with new players I would do a sample run in which I would roll the dice, explain the outcomes, but have the players be immune to damage. I would say things like, "We're playing this for familizarization, so you're not taking any damage. But if this were a real game, that'd be a Serious wound, and you'd have gotten a +3 TN to all target numbers. It's important to use cover and conserve combat pool appropriately," and things like that. But, in the interests of immersion, and in the philosophical interest of letting the dice fall where they may, how about this? Start all the characters off in some kind of MILES training compound. There's wooden boards and scaffolds forming houses, there's bunkers, there's underground tunnels. The characters are either equipped with MILES weapons (no damage, but beeping noises indicating wound severity), or else with simunitions (gel rounds). I'm thinking about the "McKenna MOUT" level in America's Army (www.americasarmy.com). Hell, too add flavor, we could even add the graffiti to one of the walls that says, "you can't spell lost without Lt." Let the character have a few "scrimmage matches" with gel rounds and learn the combat system. That would be totally immersive, totally letting the dice fall where they may, and very much just pure practice in the use of the combat engine. Hell, just to represent the practice, a GM could be entirely justified in giving each participant in the MILES session a karma point for each "scrimage". That seems totally reasonable to me. What do you think? EDIT: This was originally going to be a reply post here: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?act=...=7&t=2467&st=50 EDIT 2: How about using paintballs? That could be both flavorful and instructive. Describe where the paintball hits based on the successes the shooter had after reductions from a dodge test, and describe the pain based on the actual amount of damage that would have been caused after staging. So, in terms of the shooter's successes, Light = hit in the hand or foot Medium = hit on the arm or leg Serious = hit center of mass Deadly = hit on the face; "are those my balls on your eyes?" In terms of pain, Dosen't hurt = staged away Faint sting = light Healthy smack = medium Extremely painful = serious You almost pass out from the pain = deadly

The Stainless St...

Jan 22 2006, 10:54 PM

Post #2

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 257
Joined: 25-May 05
Member No.: 7,414

I have also recently adopted the practice of open GM rolls, for much the same reasons you describe. Also due in large part to BitBashers Post linked in my sig:

QUOTE (BitBasher Nov 17 2003 @ 01:00 PM)

Now the real catalyst that changed things, besides us getting older, was in my opinion the dice rolls. We went from the GM hiding the dice behind a screen and telling you what happened, to the GM never hiding a dice roll, and never, ever altering them in any way. Period.

This started as an experiment and had a few unintentional side effects. If the GM can hide the dice rolls then the NPC's really don't have to follow the same rules as the PC's and the PC's know that. Conversely, if all the rolls are open and concrete, the GM cannot save them, their choices are final. Their consequences are absolute. This leads to players knowing that their characters mortality is real, and not able to be saved by GM fiat. They choose their fights carefully, they treat each victory as a victory. They feel their accomplishemnts are now things they accomplished, not just something handed to them on a platter because the GM said so and allowed the rolls to fall in their favor.

I cannot stress enough how much this canges the way the game feels. When someone knows that a bad roll can kill them, they take measures to make sure they don't have to make any unnecessary rolls. They protect themselves. They stop doing action movie maneuvers. They start treating their chacacters like real people, because like real people they are now mortal without some fate or luck protecting them. They know when to cut their losses and run. They turn down runs that seem too good to be true.

As a GM this made my life somewhat more difficult until I became a good judge of what screwed the PC's and what didn't. I still used NPC's bu they had to be more real, because I couldn't save them, they had to save themselves. The main NPC's stopped using direct confrontation. They knew they could die. If the PC's whacked a major player then so be it. The consequences fell where they may and the world went on. The game had to be much more freeform. There were no 5 year plans and events than needed to happen. Now there were NPC's with goals and motives, and PC's with actions and consequences, all this came together and the world unfolded in real time, more like a living breathing world full of real people and less like a plot waiting to happen. There were no more story signposts, thinking of cool events. No more undefeatable bad guys or good guys.

After playing this way for a few years we had a GM come and run a game for us, a good GM, but he fudged his dice rolls for story. It was a good story, and it was the kind of story we used to play, but we couldn't do that anymore. It all seemed forced. We knew the villain cheated to survive, so our eventual victory was shallow and forced, as we know that was also handed to us and not earned. Story for the sake of story IMHO is no better than dice rolls for the sake of dice rolls.

The decisions are made, the dice fall, the consequences are roleplayed. As soon as I read this post I understood that this was the kind of roleplaying I needed to be a part of, and have been breaking in my players ever since. My group are all fairly experienced roleplayers though, and they have a good grasp of the rules, as well as my interpretation of the 6th world. I think that these things are nessesary to make this kind of leap. The game will be more deadly, and everyone has to be prepared for that too.

The only thing I use my GM screen for now is table reference.

End the Tyranny of the GM screen! Free and Open dice rolls for all!

Kozbot View Member Profile	Jan 22 2006, 11:02 PM Post #3
Target Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 22-January 06 Member No.: 8,189	I like the GM screen because I like keeping my players in suspense, I don't want them to know wether the person hiding from them rolled better of it there really isn't a person there. I like the decker not knowing if he found all the IC or not, if they see my really awesome roll then their crappy one they'll know there's stuff there, they just can't find it. As for fudging rolls, I guess if SR is primarily a combat simulation for your group then fudging would be the worst thing possible. On the flip side for me it sucks to go "Well that random ganger just blew the brains out of that character who you'd written a 10 page backstory, maybe you should work the statistics better on what keeps people alive and less on why they run the shadows". As the GM I can give the NPCs a pistol skill of whatever I want, he can be good enough to shoot you in the eye from a mile away or unable to hit you if the barrel is against your forehead, I decide if he's got APDS, or whatever. When it really comes down to it your stats really don't matter, no matter how well you design your character I can instantly create a NPCs that's you +1 so you lose. shrugs That's just my 2 :nuyen:

Aku View Member Profile	Jan 22 2006, 11:40 PM Post #4
Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769	i try to do both. In cases where the PCs know what is being rolled, roll it in the open, but for things that they wouldnt know (op[posed stealth tests, things like that) then go ahead and hide it. Or, roll dice at any old odd time, and jot the results down, and occosionally pick from them.

IAmMarauder

Jan 22 2006, 11:45 PM

Post #5

Target

Group: Members
Posts: 28
Joined: 28-May 02
Member No.: 2,792

QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Jan 22 2006, 10:15 PM)

But, in the interests of immersion, and in the philosophical interest of letting the dice fall where they may, how about this?

Start all the characters off in some kind of MILES training compound. There's wooden boards and scaffolds forming houses, there's bunkers, there's underground tunnels. The characters are either equipped with MILES weapons (no damage, but beeping noises indicating wound severity), or else with simunitions (gel rounds). I'm thinking about the "McKenna MOUT" level in America's Army (www.americasarmy.com). Hell, too add flavor, we could even add the graffiti to one of the walls that says, "you can't spell lost without Lt." Let the character have a few "scrimmage matches" with gel rounds and learn the combat system.

That would be totally immersive, totally letting the dice fall where they may, and very much just pure practice in the use of the combat engine.

Hell, just to represent the practice, a GM could be entirely justified in giving each participant in the MILES session a karma point for each "scrimage". That seems totally reasonable to me.

I love this idea, and was planning something similar. It was more along the lines of a trainer taking them through a VirtualSim of some of the past events in the SR Universe (starting at 4th Ed, but would love for them to take a trip through the Arc as it was under Deus). If it is a Sim, then the characters may "die" online, but be OK in "real life". They can analyse their tactics, and try again. This will allow them to try stuff out, suffer the effects and learn from their mistakes. The bonus Karma is a great idea, gives them a chance to prop up areas their character lacks. It also has the benefit that you can give them different scenarios of the same type, so they can get used to a variety of conditions (eg "Today is all about B&E. First up, we are going to try a warehouse, then progress through a Lone Star Station, a corp facility and finish it off with a Deus/Arc run"). just have to remember to modify the events so that there is some randomness. Imagine their face when they go around the corner expecting 2 blues, only to meet a gaggle of spiders with a medusae or two :evil:

*EDIT* Just had an thought about this; you can do this before they create their actual characters... Let them pick archetypes, and have only a certain amount allowed (determined by the teacher if you want)... Can also use it to explain the different concepts one at a time (similar to a tutorial found in many PC Games). I think I will use this idea.

For runners, this training could be provided by Assets Inc, for Security Guards or Military players it could be run by the respective employers...

The Stainless St...

Jan 23 2006, 01:04 AM

Post #6

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 257
Joined: 25-May 05
Member No.: 7,414

QUOTE (Kozbot)

As for fudging rolls, I guess if SR is primarily a combat simulation for your group then fudging would be the worst thing possible. On the flip side for me it sucks to go "Well that random ganger just blew the brains out of that character who you'd written a 10 page backstory, maybe you should work the statistics better on what keeps people alive and less on why they run the shadows".

I instead think that it doesn't suck. Just solemnly say:

"You wrote 10 pages of backstory, and tonight we wrote the end. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti, Amen."

The other option is to take away the threat of the opposition. You take away his teeth, and he is just Random Ganger #12. "Why should I worry about Random Ganger #12?" asks your player, "He may wound me, but in the end I am impervious to his attacks because I have written backstory. He is an NPC, and by definition inferior to me."

The solution? Do your best not to get shot by gangers, because a lucky shot can kill you. When you enter into a firefight, you may die - and the GM ~~may not~~ can't save you. Except for the hand of God. Once.

Wounded Ronin

Jan 23 2006, 01:20 AM

Post #7

Great Dragon

Group: Members
Posts: 6,640
Joined: 6-June 04
Member No.: 6,383

QUOTE (IAmMarauder)

QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Jan 22 2006, 10:15 PM)

But, in the interests of immersion, and in the philosophical interest of letting the dice fall where they may, how about this?

Start all the characters off in some kind of MILES training compound. There's wooden boards and scaffolds forming houses, there's bunkers, there's underground tunnels. The characters are either equipped with MILES weapons (no damage, but beeping noises indicating wound severity), or else with simunitions (gel rounds). I'm thinking about the "McKenna MOUT" level in America's Army (www.americasarmy.com). Hell, too add flavor, we could even add the graffiti to one of the walls that says, "you can't spell lost without Lt." Let the character have a few "scrimmage matches" with gel rounds and learn the combat system.

That would be totally immersive, totally letting the dice fall where they may, and very much just pure practice in the use of the combat engine.

Hell, just to represent the practice, a GM could be entirely justified in giving each participant in the MILES session a karma point for each "scrimage". That seems totally reasonable to me.

I love this idea, and was planning something similar. It was more along the lines of a trainer taking them through a VirtualSim of some of the past events in the SR Universe (starting at 4th Ed, but would love for them to take a trip through the Arc as it was under Deus). If it is a Sim, then the characters may "die" online, but be OK in "real life". They can analyse their tactics, and try again. This will allow them to try stuff out, suffer the effects and learn from their mistakes. The bonus Karma is a great idea, gives them a chance to prop up areas their character lacks. It also has the benefit that you can give them different scenarios of the same type, so they can get used to a variety of conditions (eg "Today is all about B&E. First up, we are going to try a warehouse, then progress through a Lone Star Station, a corp facility and finish it off with a Deus/Arc run"). just have to remember to modify the events so that there is some randomness. Imagine their face when they go around the corner expecting 2 blues, only to meet a gaggle of spiders with a medusae or two :evil:

*EDIT* Just had an thought about this; you can do this before they create their actual characters... Let them pick archetypes, and have only a certain amount allowed (determined by the teacher if you want)... Can also use it to explain the different concepts one at a time (similar to a tutorial found in many PC Games). I think I will use this idea.

For runners, this training could be provided by Assets Inc, for Security Guards or Military players it could be run by the respective employers...

That's an awesome idea. Very sci-fi "futuristic", too. I love it!

Kozbot

Jan 23 2006, 03:20 AM

Post #8

Target

Group: Members
Posts: 23
Joined: 22-January 06
Member No.: 8,189

QUOTE (The Stainless Steel Rat)

I instead think that it doesn't suck. Just solemnly say:

"You wrote 10 pages of backstory, and tonight we wrote the end. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti, Amen."

The other option is to take away the threat of the opposition. You take away his teeth, and he is just Random Ganger #12. "Why should I worry about Random Ganger #12?" asks your player, "He may wound me, but in the end I am impervious to his attacks because I have written backstory. He is an NPC, and by definition inferior to me."

The solution? Do your best not to get shot by gangers, because a lucky shot can kill you. When you enter into a firefight, you may die - and the GM ~~may not~~ can't save you. Except for the hand of God. Once.

Then remind the player to right anouther 10 page back story for the next session?

My PCs are by no means impervious and the gangers are far from random, however I won't have players for long if I go "Gee sorry man, seems as if that warning shot caught you in the brain pan, better luck next time and you'd better work harder and making a tougher character"

When my PCs go into a Z zone unless they're armed to the teeth and look menacing as hell they're going to be shot at. Those shots will eventually kill them as there are essentially infinite numbers of NPCs with which to shoot an infinite number of bullets.

The GM can provoke a firefight whenever he feels like it and if he wants to right bigger numbers he can ensure that the PCs will die. As GM I deside how big a hammer I'm swinging at my PCs going "Well I guess the dice killed you" can be a cop out as it's the GM that decided that the PCs were going to get ambushed.

Maybe I'm missing your point but I've played for GMs that would regularly hit you with 14D aimed shot at your head because you left a few hairs at a run you did. I've played in many campaigns where you don't do character creation, you do regiment creation because you're going to go threw at least 2 PCs a session.

I'm not arguing for PCs to be immortal by any stretch but every ganger IS just Random Ganger #whatever, and the GM can throw them at you till your dead if he feels so.

Dog View Member Profile	Jan 23 2006, 04:11 AM Post #9
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025	I like this idea, but it does leave the potential for the PC's to fall victim to an error in planning on the GM's part. Letting luck have its say is one thing, but it'll just cause resentment if the GM can't admit when he's put the runners into an effectively unsurvivable situation. What about keeping target numbers a secret still? Really, whether or not the GM screen is there, it's about the GM being honest with himself. Outside of combat, success and failure really relies on the group (or the GM, I guess) to interpret the rolls, so it makes sense.

Clyde View Member Profile	Jan 23 2006, 04:45 AM Post #10
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 12-April 04 From: Lacey, Washington Member No.: 6,237	Another thing to remember is that you need a fair amount of over damage in order to die. It's hard to just take this unless you keep fighting after taking so nasty wounds - so really the 10 page backstory guy just needs to learn to back down and try another angle once he's racked up 6 boxes. SR isn't D&D - it's not the end of the world if you lose a firefight or two.

nick012000 View Member Profile	Jan 23 2006, 04:50 AM Post #11
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398	Except that the nice man with the assault rifle can throw out 20D damage (8M base, +2 Power EXEX, 10-round burst).

ShadowDragon8685

Jan 23 2006, 05:00 AM

Post #12

Horror

Group: Members
Posts: 5,322
Joined: 15-June 05
From: BumFuck, New Jersey
Member No.: 7,445

QUOTE (nick012000)

Except that the nice man with the assault rifle can throw out 20D damage (8M base, +2 Power EXEX, 10-round burst).

If you take a D wound, don't you just drop straight and then get considered 'not a target', which is prime time for the mage to drop a heal on you?

It's the three guys who each unload 10M wounds on you that you need to worry about.

Liper View Member Profile	Jan 23 2006, 05:13 AM Post #13
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 388 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,885	I like the screen because I roll like the god I am. my friends have always commented on this, but in sr3, I could take a random punk with a predator and take out a troll in millspec body armour. (exxageration but it's the point) that holy shit look at them 6s is common when I'm rolling dice, why punish the players because I have all the karrma?

Nidhogg

Jan 23 2006, 05:23 AM

Post #14

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 135
Joined: 8-November 05
From: Toronto, Ontario - Canada
Member No.: 7,934

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

QUOTE (nick012000 @ Jan 23 2006, 12:50 AM)

Except that the nice man with the assault rifle can throw out 20D damage (8M base, +2 Power EXEX, 10-round burst).

If you take a D wound, don't you just drop straight and then get considered 'not a target', which is prime time for the mage to drop a heal on you?

It's the three guys who each unload 10M wounds on you that you need to worry about.

Except that staging 20D down is absurdly difficult, so the attack will almost assuredly overflow from the attacker's net successes. While a troll sammie would probably survive with an interesting story to tell, a decker, rigger, or face would, in all likelyhood end up as a crimson smear on the sidewalk.

ShadowDragon8685

Jan 23 2006, 05:39 AM

Post #15

Horror

Group: Members
Posts: 5,322
Joined: 15-June 05
From: BumFuck, New Jersey
Member No.: 7,445

QUOTE (Nidhogg @ Jan 23 2006, 01:23 AM)

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jan 23 2006, 12:00 AM)

QUOTE (nick012000 @ Jan 23 2006, 12:50 AM)

Except that the nice man with the assault rifle can throw out 20D damage (8M base, +2 Power EXEX, 10-round burst).

If you take a D wound, don't you just drop straight and then get considered 'not a target', which is prime time for the mage to drop a heal on you?

It's the three guys who each unload 10M wounds on you that you need to worry about.

Except that staging 20D down is absurdly difficult, so the attack will almost assuredly overflow from the attacker's net successes. While a troll sammie would probably survive with an interesting story to tell, a decker, rigger, or face would, in all likelyhood end up as a crimson smear on the sidewalk.

Oooooh. Right.....

2097. The next generation of Shadowrunners is sitting at the knees of an aged troll with an ancient cyberarm. The troll is speaking.

"And there we were. Jimmie, god bless his loyal if psychotic soul, had just decapitated two of the sec-guards in one swing. Athena, our decker, had double-tapped the third, and I hauled back. Doggone if I didn't punch the fourth guard clear into the Seventh World."

He takes a slow, mock swing with his non-cyber arm, and the kids around him giggle playfully, murmering about how 'grandpa Slick's really strong.

"But, there was a problem. There was a fifth security guard. I didn't know it at the time, but we'd just eliminated all of his buddies, and I'd personally cleaned the clock of his very own brother. Worse, what I didn't know is that he used to be an Ares Firewatch agent, had gotten all the money he wanted doing that, then took a low-pay, low-risk job to watch out for his little brother. His little brother that I'd just whalloped. Well, the bolt on his rifle went ca-chink! by itself, and he shouldered it. Doggone if that sumgun didn't put at least ten rounds into me, and he wasen't firing civilian loads, too!"

The aged troll pulls back his cardigan, revealing a line of old scars running up the side attached to his cyberarm. The children gasp in horror - and there's only three scars.

"Yep. And that's how grandpa slick lost his right arm."

The children go abuzz, tittering around rampaging security guards and the trolls who're tough enough to survive them.

mintcar View Member Profile	Jan 23 2006, 12:04 PM Post #16
Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505	If I´ve had my players make characters according to the rules, and the sentiment is that we will be playing by the rules, I will go to great lengths not to fudge rolls, even if I keep them hidden. I like to have a bit of unpredictability in my game. How rolls are resolved on the other hand, can be a rather improvised matter in my game. Players will mostly follow the rules, but for NPCs I´ll make up how the rolls are resolved if I can´t remember or if the canon way takes too long.

toturi View Member Profile	Jan 23 2006, 01:30 PM Post #17
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187	I keep hidden rolls that the book says to hide. Otherwise it is all open.

Pendaric View Member Profile	Jan 23 2006, 01:45 PM Post #18
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 993 Joined: 5-December 05 From: Crying in the wilderness Member No.: 8,047	As far as rolling the dice as a Ref, ST, Ctr, DM, GM, SM, S&M, SOB whatever you call the person in charge of the plot/world. My take is, "chance favours the prepared mind." From open dice to Ref whim free form. Edit: Am inform I need to make this clearer by my friends, "so that there is at least a signpost to my meaning." (thank you so much my players). So as a ref in control of everything bar the characters conscious thoughts and choices, prepare extensively so nothing that the Ref controls will/can surprise you, probability included. That leaves only the PC's choices (with obligatory curve ball) and anomalios dice rolling, fortuitous or desastrous. With only these things a ref can build in redundacy and maintain the stance of benevolant tyrant enforcing the rules, harsh but fair (mostly harsh). One notable individual stated,"It's called ref fudge because a little is nice and a lot is bad for you." :grinbig:

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jan 26 2006, 12:43 AM Post #19
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	I'm a big fan of hidden rolls. I am not a big fan of changing the results of those rolls, no matter the end being sought. ~J

eidolon

Jan 26 2006, 02:21 AM

Post #20

ghostrider

Group: Retired Admins
Posts: 4,196
Joined: 16-May 04
Member No.: 6,333

QUOTE (Clyde)

Another thing to remember is that you need a fair amount of over damage in order to die. It's hard to just take this unless you keep fighting after taking so nasty wounds -

Tell that to "Johnny". A physad being played in my game right now with decent body and pretty damn good armor, he took a shotgun blast to the chest, which gave him a light wound and knocked him to the ground (botched the knockdown test). However, this light wound was enough to drop his initiative down below the guy that shot him. BLAM again. Three seconds, deadly wound, down for the count.

QUOTE

so really the 10 page backstory guy just needs to learn to back down and try another angle once he's racked up 6 boxes. SR isn't D&D - it's not the end of the world if you lose a firefight or two.

Okay, now I'm sure you're kidding. SR is so much deadlier than D&D in my experience. Especially at later "levels", when your D&D fighter is a total damage soaking tank, and your 250 karma character can still be taken out by a shotgun-toting Forever Tacoma ork. :D

The Stainless St...

Jan 26 2006, 03:18 AM

Post #21

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 257
Joined: 25-May 05
Member No.: 7,414

QUOTE (Kozbot)

QUOTE (The Stainless Steel Rat @ Jan 22 2006, 08:04 PM)

The solution? Do your best not to get shot by gangers, because a lucky shot can kill you. When you enter into a firefight, you may die - and the GM ~~may not~~ can't save you. Except for the hand of God. Once.

Then remind the player to right anouther 10 page back story for the next session?

Yep. Sometimes life is a bitch. Death more so.

QUOTE (Kozbot)

My PCs are by no means impervious and the gangers are far from random, however I won't have players for long if I go "Gee sorry man, seems as if that warning shot caught you in the brain pan, better luck next time and you'd better work harder and making a tougher character"

Warning shot?!? Typically if a character is trying to miss I'll just let them, but that's just me. If instead the NPC was shooting at the PC, then everyone has to concede that a potentially fatal headshot is a very real possibility. See my earlier post regarding not getting shot.

QUOTE (Kozbot)

The GM can provoke a firefight whenever he feels like it and if he wants to right bigger numbers he can ensure that the PCs will die. As GM I deside how big a hammer I'm swinging at my PCs going "Well I guess the dice killed you" can be a cop out as it's the GM that decided that the PCs were going to get ambushed.

That's Metagaming. Don't put up with it from your players, and expect more from yourself. Keep NPC knowledge seperate and distinct from GM knowledge, and have NPCs react in a realistic way depending on the information available to them along with their own motivations and self interests.

QUOTE (Kozbot)

I've played for GMs that would regularly hit you with 14D aimed shot at your head because you left a few hairs at a run you did.

I'll admit I might do that... it would depend on the run they did, and whether or not such retaliation was justfied and realistic in my mind. I can say this though, it wouldn't be very freaking often.

QUOTE (Kozbot)

...every ganger IS just Random Ganger #whatever...

No. Absolutely. Fucking. NO! Every NPC is a person with a childhood, family, friends. Fears and desires and ambitions. He has a story, whether your PCs have learned it or not. Even if the GM doesn't quite know what it is, it's there. It's your job as GM to make everybody believe that it's there. It's called immersion, and it makes or breaks a game in my opinion.

Liper View Member Profile	Jan 26 2006, 04:49 AM Post #22
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 388 Joined: 24-October 05 Member No.: 7,885	treating the world like every person is fodder unless you created them a prime runner is stupid, it's now what SR is. SR isn't about making SRs gods amongst men. It's about Sharks in a very large ocean of smaller fish, patrolled by bigger sharks, fishermen and any other sorted thing that makes you small in the end despite however many fish you eat on the way.

Kagetenshi

Jan 26 2006, 04:59 AM

Post #23

Manus Celer Dei

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 17,006
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802

QUOTE (eidolon)

QUOTE (Clyde)

Another thing to remember is that you need a fair amount of over damage in order to die. It's hard to just take this unless you keep fighting after taking so nasty wounds -

Tell that to "Johnny". A physad being played in my game right now with decent body and pretty damn good armor, he took a shotgun blast to the chest, which gave him a light wound and knocked him to the ground (botched the knockdown test). However, this light wound was enough to drop his initiative down below the guy that shot him. BLAM again. Three seconds, deadly wound, down for the count.

Ok. You didn't say what you consider to be "decent Body", so let's say 4. He now has 12 seconds for someone to get to him and start applying first aid.

Your point?

~J

Cain

Jan 26 2006, 05:02 AM

Post #24

Grand Master of Run-Fu

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,840
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Tir Tairngire
Member No.: 178

Okay, you all are forgetting the number one rule. This is a game, and we're here to have fun.

Now, I don't know about you, but personally I don't find it to be fun to be taken down due to a few bad dice rolls. If a PC fails an athletics test while climbing to the second story, I'm probably not going to let him die from falling damage, even if he botches his soak roll.

What's more, in combat, I've discovered that causing serious+ wounds is more likely to teach players to be careful. If you just kill off PC's, they think that the game system was responsible, and respond by heavier munchkinism. OTOH, if you hit them with 9 boxes of damage, they're more apt to realize that their own tactics got them into this mess. A close brush with death can be a more effective teacher than killing the PC outright.

QUOTE

No. Absolutely. Fucking. NO! Every NPC is a person with a childhood, family, friends. Fears and desires and ambitions. He has a story, whether your PCs have learned it or not. Even if the GM doesn't quite know what it is, it's there. It's your job as GM to make everybody believe that it's there. It's called immersion, and it makes or breaks a game in my opinion.

I don't think so. You can have a very immersive game without even approaching that level of detail. Mood music, props, good descriptions; the list goes on and on. There's lots of very immersive books and movies out there that don't even come close to that level of detail. Heck, I used to LARP a lot, and the game was highly immersive without even going into detail on most NPCs.

eidolon

Jan 26 2006, 06:09 AM

Post #25

ghostrider

Group: Retired Admins
Posts: 4,196
Joined: 16-May 04
Member No.: 6,333

QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jan 25 2006, 11:59 PM)

QUOTE (eidolon @ Jan 25 2006, 09:21 PM)

QUOTE (Clyde)

Another thing to remember is that you need a fair amount of over damage in order to die. It's hard to just take this unless you keep fighting after taking so nasty wounds -

Tell that to "Johnny". A physad being played in my game right now with decent body and pretty damn good armor, he took a shotgun blast to the chest, which gave him a light wound and knocked him to the ground (botched the knockdown test). However, this light wound was enough to drop his initiative down below the guy that shot him. BLAM again. Three seconds, deadly wound, down for the count.

Ok. You didn't say what you consider to be "decent Body", so let's say 4. He now has 12 seconds for someone to get to him and start applying first aid.

Your point?

~J

My point being that it really isn't that hard to take that much damage. At all. The way Clyde had it, it sounds as though characters would rarely find themselves in a situation in which they will take a D to the face. I find that it isn't that rare, and it can happen at just about any time. I also find that it happens more often when a GM doesn't fudge any of the rolls. (there, I tied it back into the thread)

Also, 12 seconds is a pretty short time when none of your buddies are within say, five miles of your bleeding body, and the only people that are around are too busy stealing your credstick to bother slapping on a trauma patch.

That would be my point, in a nutshell.

« Next Oldest · Shadowrun · Next Newest »